Something i would really love to do is beat up civilians. They don't have to die but if they had something like zero resistance to knockback/down/up or holds and they would run away from you... It would provide me with hours of fun for sure. There could be a mechanic where if you abuse enough civilians a hero flies in to try and stop you. There could be temporary powers to be earned. Perhaps some achievements for taking out the heroes that try and kill you.
Just a thought.
Maybe there could be a faction system associated with this. It takes something like 100 000 reputation to change alignment, hitting civilians causes your reputation to change by 1 point (so you aren't forced to not hit them at all). This way heroes could be a little.... Rough aswell. Completing heroic or villainous missions could award you with something like 500 hero/villain points to offset the slaughter of civilians. Actual alignment missions could give you something like 10 000 reputation for completing them and they could be more epic in scale.
I think it would be a nice and unique quark for the game to have. Also there would have to be a 'last' target priority for civilians while in combat, to avoid losing effectiveness due not being able to target the right guy because of all the people running around.
There has been talk... and it's only talk, no promises. That if you attack civvies in the good parts of town, then you flag yourself for PvP and heroes can wail on you. We're talking about ways to do that so that those who don't even want to see PvP won't know what's going on. Phasing... new instancing... are possibilities. (And at this point only possibilities.) But we're nowhere near the point of committing to that, and even if we wanted to, figuring out how to make it work; but, it shows we share you concerns. ... // ... Personally, I see regular and large scale attacking of civilians as being problematic... any sane society would execute such a super powered villain!
Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator
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"Execute" seems a little harsh, but I could definitely see some sort of response - either in the form of a PvP alert, or waves of NPCs like cops and NPC heroes trying to get the offending player.
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Maybe it could be ramping up difficulty of baddies until you die or give in and then get prosecuted or something like skyrim. I would really not want to have to be into PVP to be able to toss around a live target *looks at training dummy*.
I see where you are coming from and i agree that it wouldn't be very lore friendly on a grand scale. I think that flagging for PVP though wouldn't be the best idea. I for one hate it when i try to participate in an event to find myself flagged and running from anything red. Perhaps there could even be some kind of simulation you go in to kind of like the powerhouse from Champions online where you can beat on civilians? (I know this stuff is REALLY far away, just for the sake of discussion though :) )
If you can mug civilians, then others have to be able to defend them, which kind of leads you right into pvp. On the other hand, I will be very surprised if you cannot imug civilians in some if not most instances.
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IANAL, IMHO, WYSIWYG, YMMV, IIRC, AFAIK, ETC
[color=#ff0000]Composition Assistant Director, Composition Team[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Could be interesting, since in a city that attracts so many powered individuals, you never know if that civilian might just be a super on the way to their day job...
If Brute Force doesn't work, you aren't using enough of it!
You could have Mugging/Murder/Robbery/Arson/Shakedown as optional mission goals of any mission instance. And to push that even further, you could have the difficulty raise based on which and how many of these you do.
That reminds me of Star wars galaxies, where you never really know anything about the other players. You can ask them or talk to them, as well as inspect them. But you never know if the smuggler you plan on killing is actually a jedi. That'd be a cool mechanic, go into a warzone filled with civilians doing emotes and you have to find your target and kill them, everyone has a civilian skin. Kind of like assassins creed multiplayer. I would play that.
My only concern about getting to effect the civilians runs similar to reactive environments. There could easily be someone that would run around & slaughter everyone just for "the fun of it", same as someone continually destroying areas of a city just for kicks. This would turn large areas of the city into bombed out like war-zones with corpses strewn everywhere If there was a way to however have some mugging/theft happening or even villain or heroes in secret id traveling through the "opposite side's" territory, that could be fun. I do agree it is kind of silly for a villain to never act villainy around civilians, but there would need to be some kind of balance. It would also be annoying if some public spaces for folks to gather & hang out kept getting interrupted messed with by some folks attacking everyone & everything around.
Deeds Not Words
Ponder this if you would any of villainous intent. There have to be police, gangsters, military and other types of combatant NPC in the world right? who is to say that some of them are not supers? NPC supers sure, but still. The same goes for non combatants also. Are supers new to this world or have they been around long enough they are in ALL aspects of life? Before you go crazy with the death toll a little forethought might be called for or you may find your villainous self on the wrong end of a vicious paddle attack from UberGranny the Spankinator!
***Can I call dibs?*** chuckle
[color=#FF9933]A new beginning, forged from[/color][color=#0000FF][b][i] hope[/color][/b][/i][color=#FF9933] never ending[/color][color=red]!![/color]
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Surprise heroes could be interesting. I don't think the possibility of defeating all of the civillians in a zone would be plausible, if their respawn rates are anything near those of the normal street trash. And since there's some plan to make some zones more hero-aligned and others more villain-aligned, so one could wander into our Atlas Park equivalent and kill everyone, at least not for long.
The world is a mess and I just ... need to rule it.
Would the system allow for villains to mug NPCs or rob places & then the are marked or "tagged" while within the area of the crime? The "tagged" villains perhaps then attempt to reach some point for a successful get away or slip into a disguise after a certain amount of time of not being "observed" or noticed by heroes on patrol? This could work for heroes as well going after certain villains or criminals located in "questionable" areas or maybe even other countries. Being caught could start all kinds of subplots.
Deeds Not Words
let's not forget the other side of things here. what if you are in an area where you have a particularly high reputation and someone attacks you? think of what would happen if someone tried to mug a beloved athlete outside his home stadium. instant riot, and aimed squarely at the perpetrator. think of those scenes in super hero movies where the champ is getting the crap kicked out of him and the locals band together to help. could even work for villains, maybe you are the vigilante type, or exceptionally charismatic. having NPCs react to you based on you LOCAL reputation could be amazing for immersion.
If Brute Force doesn't work, you aren't using enough of it!
I am all for PCs being able to mug civilians on the street, but mass murder would probably threaten our intended Teen rating. In instances, however, a higher level of violence might be more acceptable than elsewhere. It's something to be researched.
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IANAL, IMHO, WYSIWYG, YMMV, IIRC, AFAIK, ETC
[color=#ff0000]Composition Assistant Director, Composition Team[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Perhaps civilian attacks could only be done in mission context. But it would be an easily acquirable, repeatable mission. The ones with higher rewards are in better parts of town and require you to be in PvP mode. The ones with lower rewards are in lower areas, where you could conceivably get away with it.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
This is really close to how World PvP worked in WoW, at least back when I played. If you attack Horde NPCs in Horde territory as an Alliance player, you'd be PvP flagged for an amount of time, and Horde players could attack you. Same holds with the factions reversed.
The world is a mess and I just ... need to rule it.
This is very much where we began with our thoughts. WoW did World PvP very well.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
That's a good idea! Except i'm not sure i agree with the forced PVP.
Didn't CoH have that in mayhem missions minus the PVP? All i remember is having fun hitting NPCs there
.... This could also be part of a solution for my thread of Villains attacking civilians. The immersion for others wouldn't be an issue if you were the only one instanced. If the BBcode isn't working... this was quoted from the thread "Too many heroes in one city"
Well, as it points out further up, if it's open world it's just not fair to allow you to go and start wrecking their territory while being invulnerable. And if it comes down to it, the idea that you can just waltz into the better part of town, hit people, and leave, isn't too credible either. For every decision there will be those unhappy - in this case I'm lobbying for the decision that makes the game more believable./../ On the other hand, it begs the question of whether street sweeping should also open one to PvP from villains.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
If there's a PvP server, or a PvP instance of a city area, that would work well for attacking civilians and receiving retribution.
It might be cool in an non-PvP way to see people build up plans for an invasion of a city area. This takes care of 2 things:
1. It allows villains to actually create plots. They choose where to attack, and how, and what they're going to hit. Sort of like a "create your own mayhem mission" thing.
2. It means that villains won't constantly be leaving unrealistic trails of dead NPC civilians in City Zones, since they can only do their own mission and then have to leave.
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Let me stress that We currently plan to have NO forced pvp in the game. There will probably be some things that will be easier to do if you are in pvp mode, like attack civilians in public. But nothing is set.in stone, so idea away!
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IANAL, IMHO, WYSIWYG, YMMV, IIRC, AFAIK, ETC
[color=#ff0000]Composition Assistant Director, Composition Team[/color]
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Thank you so much for the no forced pvp!
What if the civilians are invulnerable and can just be knocked around? Or even just completely unkillable?
I personally would not want you to be able to knock civilians around on the streets without some goody two shoes having the option of protecting them.
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IANAL, IMHO, WYSIWYG, YMMV, IIRC, AFAIK, ETC
[color=#ff0000]Composition Assistant Director, Composition Team[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Attacking civilians as a villain good idea (hero attacking petty criminals on villain turf) but yeah it may not be much sense if no hero (or villain) come to their rescue or the option of it.
Which can end up leading to open zone pvp, which may or may not be desired.
In PvP zones, oh hell yeah civilians should be able to be attacked as long as they don't interfere with targeting.
PVE, would be interesting, if it can be pulled off without it becoming a mechanism for forced pvp. Like civilians in a instanced mission, yeah they should be able to be monkey stomped just like heroes are able to monkey stomp minions. Oh and if civilians have attacks, don't let it be so powerful where they can easily take down a high end super powered being with rocks. "I'm about to face the Malestorm and these civilians with rocks are doing more damage to me than his guns?!"
Is my initial post invisible to anyone else? it seems i've lost the permisions to edit it and only the title is visible on my page, along with the replies.
i think i read he is aware of it
_______________________________________
Kovacs - Leader of "The Titan Legacy" SuperGroup
The First SuperGroup In City of Titans History - Come Be A Part Of It!!!
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fixt!
Some people have their 'text format' set to 'select' which means none is selected and thus, for some of the modules, like the initial forum post starter module, it won't display anything. I changed your default and the OP to 'plain text' and now it should show.
Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator
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im not seeing most first posts either sir.
_______________________________________
Kovacs - Leader of "The Titan Legacy" SuperGroup
The First SuperGroup In City of Titans History - Come Be A Part Of It!!!
http://cityoftitans.com/forum/building-first-super-powered-family
Haha back on topic:
So can we brainstorm any realistic ways of beating up civilians without flagging for PVP?
For example what if you could not target them, but they were affected only by targeted AoE's, so civilians that get too close to the action get blasted
They could do it in lvl capped settings, you a villan, start attacking pedestrians, random super heroes close to your level start getting alerts if they would like to respond, and then only that person and people of their team can hunt you down in that zone... Responders would be your level or higher, but once accepted, are lvl capped to around your lvl for the fighting.
_______________________________________
Kovacs - Leader of "The Titan Legacy" SuperGroup
The First SuperGroup In City of Titans History - Come Be A Part Of It!!!
http://cityoftitans.com/forum/building-first-super-powered-family
sounds interesting. But sounds like a set up for ganking. If the hero vs villain population is anything like it was in COX, then it sounds like it will be many 1 villain vs 8 man hero team with no chance. While 8 man hero team with only a few villains available to stop them on their equivalent.
How about a responding type system one for one. Meaning if it's one villain flag, one random only hero gets response notice. If it's two, then two heroes get response notice and so on, so that it can at least be somewhat of a fight instead of a gank fest.
I thought most villains were loners by nature. That whole, not sharing power with others thing. Is that not why they usually surround themselves with hordes of henchmen or minions to offset the groups of heros who come at them? Exceptions are noted of course.
[color=#FF9933]A new beginning, forged from[/color][color=#0000FF][b][i] hope[/color][/b][/i][color=#FF9933] never ending[/color][color=red]!![/color]
[color=red]Beacon of Blazing Faith[/color]--[color=blue]The Titan Legacy[/color]
yeah I thought about that too.
But also heroes are usually loners too. Until Justice League, the recent Avengers movies, and the comics from earlier in the 70s and 80s, most heroes also fought alone and mostly teamed up, like in Justice league in response to the villains forming a league of their own. Heroes were not known to share the spotlight themselves, because in their lore they were either the only one (superman), the rich guy striking fear into the heart of villains (batman), a semi-god (Thor), an all American symbol with a uber shield (Captain America), or a superrich playboy, (Ironman), defending the under sea kingdom (Aquaman), reject girl that want to get in on the action but furry creatures getting on everyone nerves including Doom, (Squirrel Girl). Robin don't really count as I think he was originally there for comic effect.
Groups of heroes is actually a basicly newer concept while forgotten about when in reality most started grouping up in response to villains grouping up first.
I think alot of what you just said stems from the fact that comic publishers kept making more and more worlds where their individual hero's existed until such time as someone said wait; what happens if hero X from Megaville and hero Y from Suptropolis met? From there was probably the logical step of each micro world actually being part of a much larger cosmos and they could then justify intermingling of the various stories into one. Hence groups started to form as artists and fans wanted to see what would happen if you put many high powered individual together who were used to working alone. Kind of like a comic version of a reality show. Just my two cents and the fact its kinda late here..Agree or ignore at your own peril!!!
[color=#FF9933]A new beginning, forged from[/color][color=#0000FF][b][i] hope[/color][/b][/i][color=#FF9933] never ending[/color][color=red]!![/color]
[color=red]Beacon of Blazing Faith[/color]--[color=blue]The Titan Legacy[/color]
I like that idea of that system, but that still makes PVP manditory for attacking a civilian. Having the option to always hit a civilian and never actually be able to without getting attacked by another player would kind of drive me away from the game, depending on how bad it is.
good point.
@Jag8, comic history note: the Justice Society (DC) first appeared in 1940; World's Finest Comics teamed Superman and Batman starting in 1941; the Marvel Family (currently called the Shazam Family) started in 1942; the Seven Sodiers of Victory in 1941. Teams have been around almost as long as Supes himself (1933).
yup. but as I said each had their moments and creation focused on being solo. When superman for example was created it wasnt created with the intentions that he would need a whole team to take down one villain in his realm.
I dont think the teaming comics are part of his official canon.
How many times did Superman have to go grab 7 of his buddies to take down Lex luther? Not many times. Many times he went at it alone. 1933, 7 years before the first teamed with Batman, that is long time solo. Then after that, he was mostly solo again besides a few spin offs here and there. But there was no doubt that Batman and Superman can fight alone.
In MMO area, it's seems that yeah a person can create a hero that fight low level low brow rejects but when it gets tough and the epic battles, oh no, they aint strong enough and must get up to 8 buddies to do it because they are either weak or too chicken crap to go man(woman) to man(woman) with the villain and succeed. Teaming go hand in hand with the fantasy world because it was set up like that, even the barbarian at times unwillingly at first end up teamign with some magic person and along the quest end up picking up someone usuall of short stature, hairy, and either comical or grumpy to fight the wizard of the land. Super heroes are by nature considered super because alone they can do what no others can. Which in the nature ofthe MMO world which seemed to be built for the fantasy lore, it dont mesh well sometimes with aspect of classical fantasy MMO way of doing things with teaming without seeming like artificially weakening the player to the point they must have a team to fight villains that if it wasa comic it would have been that ONE hero fighting. Even in COX written lore, there is exploits of States fighting villains that in game require 8 man teams. In super hero games I think it;s important to get back to the roots of what it means to be a superhero and let them be able to do all content solo. If they want to team and form things like justice league and stuff, then they should be able to and not forget to scale to the stuff for either way. But it's kills the super hero feel when content is locked because "You're 50 but you need to go get 5-7 buddies to gang bang this guy because there is no such thing as heroes able to fight tough villains alone." City of heroes may have been the city of heroes, but it sure wasnt city of SUPER heroes that isnt afraid and or can fight through the game on their own, includign the TF/SF/Trials. They should have implemented the scale to those things so people could do it solo if they chose and that still leaves those that want to form groups, they still could and it scales for them too. But leaving the main meat of what it means to be a super hero is one thing I think is holding the genre down from being a great success mainstream. The console hero games dotn seem to have any trouble selling well but the MMO do. Because it seems the devs of the MMO is so focused on forcing people to team that they forget that super heroes are supposed to be able to have epic tough battles with the powerful villains alone if they wish to.
Speaking for my wife and I, we would love to be part of a group for social interactions and the occasional cry for help when up against overwhelming odds ( You know it's gunna happen) but primarily it will probably be just her and I together against whatever comes.
Finding it hard in other games to meet up and strike out with others due to our chaotic work/home schedules has been the primary factor in this.
Our hopes are that this game will allow a rich experience for the two of us without penalizing us unduly for the fact we do tend to go it alone so to speak.
[color=#FF9933]A new beginning, forged from[/color][color=#0000FF][b][i] hope[/color][/b][/i][color=#FF9933] never ending[/color][color=red]!![/color]
[color=red]Beacon of Blazing Faith[/color]--[color=blue]The Titan Legacy[/color]
We plan to have a variety of content, from those guys in comics (that often have doom in their names) that can solo a whole team, to teams of individual foes, to those guys with hordes of minions.
As to whether team content will be available to soloists? Not my call, but there is something to be said for having something more than click text between a solo player and an accidental meeting with 8 higher level Elite enemies, not to mention anyone who works for them.
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IANAL, IMHO, WYSIWYG, YMMV, IIRC, AFAIK, ETC
[color=#ff0000]Composition Assistant Director, Composition Team[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Yeah hopefully so. And this time I hope that if Team players get exclusive content, then there should be equal quality of storyline and equal amount that is pure solo content.
One of the problems with attacking civilians is where an AoE attack on a group of bad guys includes an innocent bystander in their midst.
All of the clowns that like to walk around with their fire shields up will have to turn them off. (which wouldn't bother me a bit!)
Steve
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"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely [i]will not stop, ever,[/i] until we are live!"
Warcabbit
Perhaps there could be a way to make it so civilians can only be damaged by specifically being targeted by the mouse?
Something i'd like to add. If i was- for example- the dark armor powerset from CoH and i had the ability to damage or kill those around me to revive myself, I would be perfectly okay with sacrificing the civilian for the greater good.... Probably why i was always a vigilante within 2 levels of hitting 20 :)
[b]PREMISEs[/b]
- You don't want to hit 1 civilian and be surrounded by the Justice League each time (being beaten up so much = leave the game).
- You don't want to be forced in pvp (for pve-only guys).
- You do want to hit civilians whenever you like if possible, at least with AOE, no need to flag yourself or change game options.
- You seem to agree that Heroes should do something, it would be unreal if not.
[b]Possible SOLUTION[/b] (if it was me to decide):
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- The villain players are able to hit civilians whenever they like, [b]they don't need to flag for PVP[/b] before attacking (pvp will be automatic in ONE case and absent in all the others, completely avoidable).
- IF the game is target based, the [b]civilians are not targettable too easily[/b] with TAB, they must be targetted manually with the mouse (like CoH), so the players are not confused during other battles because each civilian gets targeted instead of the actual important/faction enemy around. Civilians should have the worst targeting priority.
- When a villain player hits or [b]kills 1 civilian, nothing happens[/b]. Just the villanous fun to do whatever you like with not-powered peoples and the kill gets added to a total score, maybe an INFAMOUS level.
[color=blue]STORY: This is very likely to pass-by even if there is an hero around, in comics it always happen that peoples like Venom or Doom or any other killed the person close to them just for temporary fury or fun, with Spiderman just flying up them at full speed, no-one will notice in a metropolis (but if there are other civilians very very close they should scream and run away).[/color]
- When a villain player [b]kills 5 civilians in 20 minutes[/b] (after 20 minutes from the first killing, the "alert" counting gets resetted to 0 civilians killed, but the total counting should stay permanent somewhere, to be more or less "infamous" or things like that), [b]he gets immediately surrounded by npc-cops[/b] based on infamous score/level.
[color=blue]STORY: This can happen because the cops are supposed to be alerted already from the first kills and they reached the spot while the player has killed already 5 peoples, the cops can be spawned a bit away and running against the player (like CoH, enemies respawned behind walls or up them, trees, cars etc.), or can be spawned with a police car arriving (which should give some sense of NEW actual feature, compared to CoH).[/color]
This way the PVE-only players can actually get PVE fun each 20 minutes, if you only have 10-15 minutes, instead of starting quests you can just enter the game, kill some civilians and get a fight on yourself.
- If you just hit civilians you get no consequences at all, or up to 4 kills max (a person can kill 4 peoples in a row and escape, with no immediate consequence, but long ones = infamous level).
- [b]More "infamous" the player is[/b] (total counting of civilians killed on that character life; civilians only! As civilians are the ones who cannot defend themselves which is the most evil acting, compared to killing policemen and heroes on missions, ALSO there are villains who may decide to stay in shadows, to avoid attention, to not be that "infamous", and so the player has that choice trying to avoid to kill civilians around, these players will still kill a few probably because of AOE shots) [b]and more powerful the npc that will fight him[/b] after 5 kills: specialized cops with poweful weapons (granades etc.) or even random npc superheroes. If the player reaches the max "infamous" level he should get a massive number of npcs against him (like it happened with GTA games in the past), 1 helicopter, 2 superheroes, 7 spec operation agents.
- killing the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th civilian will do nothing more than 5th one, those will just be further victims of your fury (you're probably fighting against the cops already)
- When a player [b]kills 10 civilians in 20 minutes he gets automatically PVP flagged[/b] (temporarily, 20 minutes?) and the heroes-community around gets ALERTED on the minimap. Everything can happen to him at this point, even unfair fights in quantity or quality, because the player actually decided to put himself in such situation and should fear it or enjoy it fully (based on the kind of player). NO NPCs involved anymore (the villain-player did fight already the police forces, which maybe are still there or already defeated).
The ALERT must be visible only on minimap (exception for the max infamous level), very visible on minimap but not elsewhere: this makes the fight a bit more fair as only the heroes who're actually around AND looking the minimap or in visual sight will get into fight, not the whole server and no warning messages appearing on screen which the heroes cannot miss and would make them all hunt the villain down without any chance of luck or tactic to escape. If the villain is too strong, the heroes can always call friends and the villain can always beat the first one and escape before the friends arrive (or call friends too).
[color=blue]STORY: Even Doctor DOOM avoids killing masses of civilians because he fears the Avengers. Even Doctor DOOM knows he can't go in a market and just do whatever he likes on american soil with civlians lives. If you kill 10 civilians you know you will get the attention of the superheroes community, you EARNED it and you will get the consequences of your action, you will become the fun-event of the heroes around (your FUN if you're actually beating heroes and manage to win even in that situation).
It wouldn't be realistic to play Doomsday and don't get automatically flagged for pvp so that the entire community of heroes can beat you up (Doosmday got lucky the first time as he was not that "infamous" yet and the heroes went in little waves, exactly like it would happen following my next step).[/color]
- [b]More "infamous" the player is ( and kills 10 civilians in the last 20 minutes), and increased is the chance to get more opponents in pvp because the ALERT will be more visible on minimap.[/b] At the max infamous level I would make the alert visible for the whole zone ([color=blue] or exceptional case: even the whole server with a message; exactly like when Doomsday shows up in today's books, the heroes immediately fly to the city attacked because they know the danger involved and they know they need to be many to defeat him[/color]).
- Infamous points should be given only by civilians killed and waves of defenders (cops, superhero npcs and players), in this case the defenders will give you much more infamous points because you're making a mess and next time (infamouse level higher) you can expect a stronger reaction from the npcs (helicopter etc.).
- Everything else shouldn't give you infamous points, because I would give to villains the option to be the kind of clever criminal which avoids the superhero attention.
If you make some missions to force you in receiving infamous points it's like you're telling this kind of player: You cannot do this mission because you're too astute. The player should choose the kind of villain if dumb brute or shadowly-clever one.
The only other way to make that happen, would be with the special mission to dimish infamous level (an heroic very difficult mission against cosmic monsters/aliens, completed by a group of villains).
[color=blue]STORY: Catwoman, the Punisher and all anti-heroes can be seen as villains making sometime good actions (making them be often forgiven by heroic community, but not always), or maybe heroes making sometime evil actions (making criminals wanting to use them for their purpose, "forgiving" their good actions of the past)[/color]
SUMMARY:
- You get PVE random fun (similar to GTA games, even when you don't want to complete missions) and can completely avoid PVP, just don't exagerate on killing masses of civilians.
- You get PVP only if you search for it or make big mistakes.
(if you kill 10 civilians not in purpose, for example with one AOE - very difficult -, than this error will cost you much, because [color=blue]it would have been a giant error even for DocDoom: it actually happened in comics already:
when DocDoom was attacked by the avengers in Latveria because his minions made the error to activate a venom-virus on american soil, DocDoom was scared of that error and was humiliated by the Sentry and Ironman as consequence[/color])
- [b]Level of the npcs defenders: obviously based on the level of the player[/b]
- [b]Quantity and Quality of the npc based on "infamous" level[/b] (civilians kills in total, never resetted, maybe some special SUPERGROUP mission of 3 hours lenght to dimish the infamous level, so you get also the 'guilds' to be useful in someway). For quality I mean if you get a cop level 15 or a helicopter level 15.
IMHO:
This cannot be completely PVE only, because you lose a great opportunity, and probably only one, to involve heroes and include a sense of FACTION even in a pve based game.
The way I wrote it, even PVE-only players can get ton of fun against NPCs and never see PVP in their lives. They just need to pay attention (and this is tactical on their side) and avoid to kill too many civilians in a short period of time (roleplay = to avoid the superheroes community attention exactly like all villains do in comics).
[b]Good for all kind of players[/b]
> Are you a person who doesn't want any consequence and just kill civilians around because you're all powerful? Good, you can kill up to 4 civilians each 20 minutes without consequences.
> Are you a person who wants consequences but not PVP? Good you can kill up to 9 civilians in 20 minutes and get consequences based on your "infamous" level.
> Are you a person who wants Factions involved in pvp? Good you can attract the attention of the heroes if you exaggerate killing 10+ civilians, you really earned it. If you have a chance to fight or not is based on: infamous level (area of attention alerted and kind of alert) and luck (= heroes actually hunting in that zone just for that purpose) and tactic (if you spot hero players hunting very close you should maybe avoid to make such killing... if you're not strong enough to face them).
[b]The heroes[/b]
The heroes are defensive and may get a similar system as well on their side, like saving too many civilians from thugs (street patrol) will attract the attention of the villains (you're ruining their affairs, thouching too many of their minions), npc and players (same way).
[b]Zones[/b]
The PVP matter could happen only in some zones if you want (I'd like it everywhere and the same city for all, but it's probable the villains and heroes will at least start on different spots, in such cases you'll just get the PVE consequences if you're not in a PVP-possible zone, even for 10+ civilians killed in a row)
This is a very well thought out way of putting it.
Just add, although difficult to do, as it seems pretty well fleshed out, is that it should be direct even for villain and heros. Meaning heroes should not be able to kill more than 4 thugs without something happening just as a villain cant beat up 4 civilians without something happening.
And the player vs player aspect probably should be relegated to specific zones BUT for PVE sectors, NPC heroes can and should respond. That said just because it's logical that heroes should respond to a villain beating up heroes just as villains probably should respond when a hero beating up lowly street thugs, there is nothing that says it HAS to be player heroes. Although if ya want to get accurate, villains should be gunning for them, the hero as soon as they enter the area of villains but that would be unfair game wise.
See the issue is that while most PVPers are decent folks, you have some that break every ToS rule in the book and the sad part is that it's so common that type of behavior that it's almost expected in a PvP zone. To implement that system effectively, rule enforcement will have to be tight. Not to mention, some people have bad taste from PvPers players and may want to create havoc asa villain and may understand consequences but no one want to be verbally abused. Thus it should be either a person flagged for PVP and or only certain zones where players can attack each other while in PVE areas NPC controlled heroes show up.
And speaking of pvp, I hope it's more interesting and variety of tactics besides grabbing ss/sj and hopping aroundf like a rabbit on crack like COX pvp. While fun for a while it got pretty old and boring fighting the same kind of pvp fight over and over and over. Wish they had more balance like arock paper scissor type for tactics instead of easy I win button, grab SS/SJ and hop around like a crack rabbit. If comic/movie hero books fights went like the common COX pvp fights people would be asking for their money back in droves.
Based on the above breakdown, if more than 4 civilians/thugs are killed in a 20 min period, NPC's are alerted to your character etc..
What about for stealthy players?
If I have a covert op character who is infiltrating an enemy complex full of civilian guards, workers etc and I go around eliminating these obstacles to reach my goal. As long as no alarms are triggered, I or anything I have killed have been discovered etc., I can expect to reach my goal and escape, without NPC's of any type confronting me.
Now, eventually, someone will be alerted to the above facts and the cry will go out to the police, villains/heroes etc and this event might even finger my op (caught on video, clues left at scene, a note left by me) so infamy may be gained.
My point is, just because a specific number of civilians COULD alert someone, does not mean it automatically SHOULD.
[color=#FF9933]A new beginning, forged from[/color][color=#0000FF][b][i] hope[/color][/b][/i][color=#FF9933] never ending[/color][color=red]!![/color]
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With the number of PCs running around, every zone would be under constant alert.
Steve
___
"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely [i]will not stop, ever,[/i] until we are live!"
Warcabbit
I think the specific numbers should be fine tuned in the future, when TPP is in alpha or beta, but otherwise i think you really covered everything.
Although to avoid any "C'mon! how could i not have killed those civilians!?!? This is crap!" situations, i think civilians should really have something in their AI to avoid getting too close. For example, in portal court in CoH there would occasionally be mobs of civilians, an AoE hitting all of them would easily set off the PvP alert you explained. This could be exclusive to civilians not being affected by the enemies though (eg: them being robbed). That way it is not too hard to piss off the police.
Also, Heroes would kind of need to kill thugs to progress, unless there was a difference from thugs and enemies. Just as villains have a difference from civilians and enemies.
Asides from those points, i think this would really be a nice way to achieve some events or alerts in game on a consistent basis. Thank you for this /really/ long post. I respect the fact you took the time to type it.
I would certainly have fun playing with this system, Hopefully there would be a way to show your notoriety on screen though.
The situation you are describing is a "Mission" - that scenario should not alert anyone except the NPC's involved in the mission programming. Guards do not = Civilians - Workers OTOH should flag you or(If we aren't doing pvp flags) alert all nearby guards (ie...Metal Gear)
I for one love a good stealth character. Stealing, backstabs, hidden archery shots, setting traps and taunting NPC's into them ... /sigh
Tamorand = (Tahm-o-rand) This name originated from the days of Ultima Online. My first character was a Tamer and a Minstrel and an Archer and a Mage - I couldn't figure out a name to portray all skills in a single word. Hence **Tamer + And ** /shrug
On the topic of the OP, it was discussed that the devs might be able to allow our player characters' secret identity to actually live as an NPC while we are offline.
Wouldn't it be cool if our home base city or the city we logged out in had our NPC doppelgänger patrolling for real? Remember CoX had a daily setting to "Patrol"
Why couldn't we have that again and possibly get bonus points if our NPC selves took down a Super Villain??
Tamorand
Tamorand = (Tahm-o-rand) This name originated from the days of Ultima Online. My first character was a Tamer and a Minstrel and an Archer and a Mage - I couldn't figure out a name to portray all skills in a single word. Hence **Tamer + And ** /shrug
"The situation you are describing is a "Mission" - that scenario should not alert anyone except the NPC's involved in the mission programming. Guards do not = Civilians - Workers OTOH should flag you or(If we aren't doing pvp flags) alert all nearby guards (ie...Metal Gear)
I for one love a good stealth character. Stealing, backstabs, hidden archery shots, setting traps and taunting NPC's into them ... /sigh"
It is true that my example was of a character on a mission, but my point was that unless a civilian is "discovered" as being attacked/killed, no NPC's of any kind should be alerted to your doings regardless of the number of civilians involved.
Example:
***NEWS BREAK*** Late last night, the villainous entity known only as the executioner reportedly struck again as eight people were found dead early this morning. Each victim was found with the trademark "smilie face" etched into their forehead. Police are still gathering leads, but for now, no arrests have been made. All citizens are encouraged not to panic as the police have everything under control. This has been a special report***
[color=#FF9933]A new beginning, forged from[/color][color=#0000FF][b][i] hope[/color][/b][/i][color=#FF9933] never ending[/color][color=red]!![/color]
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I suppose the right traits/power picks (however it ends up working) might also affect the counting. Instead of five in twenty minutes, you've got eight, because you are inherently hard to catch in the act. That probably wouldn't be considered too game skewing.
Awesome post thunder, the old forums were full of this kind of stuff and its really gratifying seeing it start to make its way into the new forums, from all new sources to boot.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
Then there's the guy who doesn't know what he's doing, like a new player. Could lead to endless frustration.
Steve
___
"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely [i]will not stop, ever,[/i] until we are live!"
Warcabbit
Snate*, even my dog would learn how to act if a situation repeats it self 2 times = that if he doesn't want superheroes attention he should avoid killing many civilians in a few minutes. The idea is very simple and that's all the new player needs to understand: no civilians killed = no consequences, many civlians killed = max consequences.
To enjoy or avoid the feature it's not really needed that you know exactly the minutes or the counting. It's needed to "master" the feature, like killing 8-9 civilians to avoid pvp, or 1-4 to avoid also the pve consequences. Soon or later the new player would try killing the third one and the 4th and 5th learning more about it... and even this kind of "testing" may be fun, because it's something easy to discover, imho. Frustration comes if you're forced to something, not if you can completely avoid it or customize it with your choices.
Anyway , the idea can be modified obviously if something doesn't work, I like this topic and the idea of this topic in general and I would like the mechanic to be openworld, not some kind of "kill-civilians istanced mission", but something that surprises you when a player appears on radar or that makes you think on what you're doing if you're defending many civilians or killing them, consequences (it's important that you have some way to avoid them, but their simple existance would make the player feel something when they kill a civilian or save one, that they're risking something even if it's not much and not often) that makes the world a bit more alive and real and fun imho.
Of course thanks to those who appreciated the basic idea of it and wants to add their opinion.
It was a well thought out and complete system, largely viable as is but there are always aspects to streamline. Since there is a PvE response before there is a PvP response, someone can learn that there are consequences for civilian deaths without hitting PvP. Adding some sort of warning in just before the PvP hits - say at kill 8 - should be easy enough to work in.
Obviously we could just have a message flash on the screen saying that 'the carnage is starting to attract the attention of the city's heroes! At this rate you're going to be dealing with tights.' But to my mind, it would be better to find something more integrated and subtle, like a cop calling you in. You'd see the speech bubble suddenly go up: control, he's too much and we can't stop him, we need tights! Get the alert up!' Or something along those lines. They can't say they weren't warned, and even if they ignore it the first time, they'll have no doubt exactly what happened afterwards.
And, of course, lets remember this system wont' exactly exist in a vacuum. Any NPC in the early tutorial stage could drop a hint to a villain that killing civilians isn't free. "And another thing - you newbies are always going on power trips and getting yourselves into trouble. Well you're not immortal, see, and we ain't alone out there. You go killing anyone you want, you're gonna have every cape in the area on your tail. So play it smart will ya?"
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At this point, I'd say it's the other side that needs work. IF we want it that heroes and villains are pretty balanced in their experience, then as some others pointed out, there needs to be a way for Heroes to trigger the attention of villains in a similar fashion. Problem being, that would actually mean there would be no such thing as street sweeping, so it couldn't be a perfect mirror.
Frankly, I'm not sure why we'd even expect a mirror to exist. Villains don't look out for each other. If you're not attacking *their* bad guys, they shouldn't care. Unlike heroes, who feel obliged to protect anyone who isn't breaking the law (and sometimes even them). So while a villain attacking anyone not another villain can expect heroes to get involved, a hero attacking random thugs could very reasonably expect that the local villains will mostly not get involved. That's also why - as the same people pointed out - there are no villain equivalents of civilians. So a mirror wouldn't even make any sense anyway.
There are a fair number of ideas running around TPP for PvE versions of street sweeping consequences and acceleration, as you continue to pick on certain factions. A lot of it revolves around an all new kind of AI that Segev is trying to create for us. It's similar to what EQ Next is talking about, except of course we'll be applying it very differently. Things like bosses spawning when you've been hitting the same guys enough.
But, PvP. Lets assume we've got SOME equivalent of street sweeping for villains, and as such the civilian killing is a side thing. We need a similar side thing for heroes to do if they don't mind poking the villains as a whole in the eye. PvE is actually covered in its own ways. When and how does a hero provoke a PvP situation? What is is that *heroes* 'can't just do and get away with it?'
My instinct is to go with territory. Head deep enough into the world of villains and your actions will provoke consequences. Thing is, we're not going for a world with hero/villain zones. Honestly I'm a bit stuck on where to go from here.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
Yeah a warning sign probably not too subtle should be good. Getting ganked as first time player is not even fun even if it happens one time.. And remember what is clear to one is muddy to another. Yeah many veterans might be able to figure out, "tights are coming" means something is going to happen but does this mean NPC tights, a boss level tight, player tight all three, the big main NPC tights?" They may learn but they may also think it means open pvp and quit without looking back. While subtle looks cool, think about how many subtle things people missed in COX that when someone finally pointed it out, you wondered how did you miss it?
I think your idea of the PVP warning would work better. Like some clear as possible and precise something that simply states "Killing anymore civilians will result in PVP". Subtle stuff works but not when going from PVE to PVP. That would lead to frustration and cant blame them for missing subtle stuff. Remember gamers mostly cant be bothered to read ToS and EULAs. Paying attention to subtle stuff is not their strong point overall.
I was also thinking about people who just would not want to participate in this feature at all. what if you don't want to hurt any civilians? Maybe you are a stalker (or TPP equivalent) and you want to be as precise as possible, go in, kill, go out. An option to turn off civilian targeting would be cool.
On the topic of heroes beating up the villain equivalent of civilians. What if there were special locations where a hero could find themselves (maybe the territory around a villain's base or something) where killing thugs will result in the same type of 'punishment' as the villains beating on civilians. The logic behind this is the more valuable thugs would be closer to the boss, and that boss gets upset once he starts losing them.
Probably not the best idea out there because not every villain has his own 'doofenshmirtz evil incorporated' tower placed in the center of the city. However i think it could be a viable place to start because it plays on the concept of territory. Maybe if just locations where they are working on something such as what the clockwork were doing when building paladin. Those areas could count as annoying the boss? It would be like sparking your own troll rave!
IDEA: Heroes can spark things like riots, or troll raves, etc. these are done by interfering with projects, confiscating goods and killing project managers. For example, on a clockwork construction site (Pretending clockwork were in titan city) there could be project managers standing around, doing their thing, crates of supplies to take, along with other objectives. If a hero is ballsy enough to stop the progress, some of that factions infantry would come in and try to dispatch the hero. Once that fails the faction leader could put a 'hit' on the hero, telling other villains that they are wanted to kill this hero. The specifics could pretty much mirror what thunder came up with above. There could be 1 project at work in every zone at any given time.
The scenario would play out like this: You fly in and start killing workers, taking their stuff, and arresting project managers. One of the workers calls for help and a bunch of soldiers enter the scene (perhaps parachute in). Assuming you do not die from the infantry, you can continue to slow down progress on the project. Finally your actions get the boss's attention. He goes and puts out a broadcast that calls for villain players to stop you. This is where you get flagged for PVP.
Of course it wouldn't just have to be clockwork building a giant robot. It could be Trolls smuggling in some new shipments of superdane.
I guess it would be a little like rifts in the MMO Rift.
I suppose the villain PVP option could be presented as "Don Marchetti has put out a hit on Captain Heroic; big money to whoever bags him!" Same announcement works for a PVE response, when the mafia's first reaction is to send in their own hitmen.
Minor suggestion would be to put a random number generator on the triggers. Say, the first-level response is triggered by hitting 4-to-8 civilians in 20 minutes, so you never quite know when you'll be noticed. I suppose a similar effect could be achieved by just putting a X% chance of response on every civilian attacked, would eliminate the need for a timer. To add complexity back, vary the % based on location: Dark alley is a low %, busy sidewalk has a high %.
________
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I do like the idea of a random number generator for determining if you are caught and NPC's alerted. Perhaps instead of a specific number of civilians, an increasing chance that the deed (attacking, killing, subduing, etc.) will be noticed. The chance initially could be determined by the characters stealthiness and ability to cover what they are doing. This then is modified by percentage (again based on skill) for each additional civilian until eventually you WILL be found out causing NPC's to be alerted, etc..
This way a skilled sneak/stalker gets the chance for taking out more civilians than an unskilled one without it just be killing without consequence or an automatic alert just because a specific number of civilians was reached.
***Seems SpaceMoose and myself had a similar idea. I did not see the % based explanation at the end of the post or I never would have suggested it.. Did I just miss that or was there a bit of editing done after post? ;)***
[color=#FF9933]A new beginning, forged from[/color][color=#0000FF][b][i] hope[/color][/b][/i][color=#FF9933] never ending[/color][color=red]!![/color]
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I think percent is a great idea! However i don't think the PVP response should be percent chance. Instead it should be something like 10 civilians above whenever the percent is tripped. That way you are never in danger of being flagged for PVP one civilian kill after you get mobbed. With something like players against other players i can see just getting annihilated over and over because i wanted to anger the cops without angering the villains but the PVP chance deciding otherwise.
And as kaxiya wrote, i think having your powersets/archetype playing a role would be a fantastic inclusion. It would be hard to believe a stone tank in bedrock form getting away with more murder than a ninja blade stalker. Maybe 35-50% chance for the bigger guys. 15-30% for the other archetypes and then 10-20% for invisible guys.
City of Heroes had a threat stat inherit with every archetype. The melee were 2.0, tanks were 3.0 or 4.0 and ranged or defenders were 1.0. something like superspeed would reduce threat by one point.
What if TPP had each toggle power contribute to threat. Powers like hide could take away threat, powers like stone armor could add threat.
Threat could then be used in a calculation to determine the percentage chance of being caught doing murder.
Edit: Just added more, had to check a name
Linking the chance of response to how the takedown was done sounds interesting. As for the scale of response, that can be handled with common mission mechanics: On defeat, a civilian has a chance to summon a beat cop. The beat cop, on defeat, has a chance to summon a SWAT team. The SWAT team's defeat has a chance to summon....well, I can't say that in public yet. :-)
That way, you can RP a bad guy who mugs civilians, but bugs out when the city's response builds up to more than they can handle.
________
This looks like a job for SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!!!
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team[/color]
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That would be fun. Also, it would help with defeat badges. I've always found killing cops and arachnos to be the hardest defeat badges out there. It would be nice to be able to grind in your favorite zone. Now will the spawns be zone specific or will they be level specific? As in, if you are level 50 in TPP equivalent of Mercy Island, will killing civilians spawn level 1-6 cops, or level 50 cops? It sounds like it should be level 50, but that could pose a threat to the level 6's running around.
SpaceMoose said " To add complexity back, vary the % based on location: Dark alley is a low %, busy sidewalk has a high %."
I do like area modifiers for skills/powers. Stealth and such should be easyer in dark areas as apposed to an exposed open area. The same could be said for a variety of powers/skills
sonic/water/electrical powers magnified a bit perhaps while underwater (perhaps causing a normally close combat attack/defense to act AOE that affects friends and foes alike (assuming they are vulnerable to those types of attacks to begin with))
Perhaps its not a great idea to fight an earth elemental on the beach, but get em into the water and instant mud. ;)
**I know this is probably better in another folder, but the post by SpaceMoose got me to thinking. Never a good idea at the best of times:) **
[color=#FF9933]A new beginning, forged from[/color][color=#0000FF][b][i] hope[/color][/b][/i][color=#FF9933] never ending[/color][color=red]!![/color]
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ThunderCAP, There's times I would've rather had your dog next to me than half the guys I teamed up with! :)
Though this concept really intrigues me, and I wouldn't want the game to always cater to the lowest common denominator, these are potential paid subscribers we're talking about and we don't want to tell them if you don't like it, go play another game.
Actually, I wouldn't mind a little more randomness than a linear progression. I'd like to have the unlucky day where I start my crime spree and not make it half a block before, lo and behold, SuperDuperGuy catches me in the act! Those times might be rare, he can't be everywhere at once, but I think they should happen.
Then there's taking advantage of the system, waiting until the giant ape is up on the Baxter building and He's busy, to then start my crime spree.
And what about "collateral damage"? I'm fighting a villain and I throw up an AoE to suppress him, then something stampedes a group of civilians right into it.
I think there would be rougher neighborhoods where gangs pretty much rule and cops don't like to go there. A hero show up in those parts and the gangs will be on them like a herd o' bricks! They wouldn't be as prevalent as the normal city but would be good hunting grounds for the stalker hero types. I always thought it was a little unrealistic to have someone ripping off some lady's purse every 50 feet.
Is the game going to autotarget you, and only you, because you of your group of friends made your quota? What if you make the quota, run down an alley and change in to your civvies, and come back out and sit on a bench to watch the fireworks? What if BeerHunter was a couple floors up on the roof taking a leak (because you never can find a public restroom when you need one) sees you change and comes down to wail on you? The alert went out for a costumed guy beating up on civilians.
Do you have to kill the civilians? Wouldn't just assaulting them do?
Am I going to be able to dress up in my civvies, stumbling along with a walker, to bait some clown in to attacking me?
Just a few thoughts... ;)
Steve
___
"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely [i]will not stop, ever,[/i] until we are live!"
Warcabbit
I'm taking some notes on this thread for later consideration. Keep up the conversation as there are some interesting ideas. Please keep in mind we are trying to keep this T for Teen rating so GTA style violence should be avoided in our game play design.As such, I don't think we'll have players "killing" civilians.
Here are some of my basic notes and thoughts:
What I've been looking for is a reason to allow for attacking civilians. Two things have stood out: a way to flag for PvP, and escalation of events.
PvP may be part of the escalation of events, or it may not. There should some consideration on the player's part when they decide to attack civilians.
One thing we want to put in is a faction / repulation system which even civilians will play a part. Attacking civilians in a given area may fall under perview of a particular gang (good or bad - yes there can be "good" gangs too) and that faction could take exception to someone messing around on their turf.
I do like the concept of escalated events based on actions of the player as this gives the game more of a "live" aspect. Random chance of escalation based on location and any nearby factions. Since this is something of a modern / post modern city, everyone having access to the internet in the palms of their hands should make it easy to provide a "reason" for sudden escalation. Why did the cop show up after I first attacked this guy today but yesterday I took mugged 4 people before anything happend?
Weighting the random chance of occurance based on faction / rep standing. If your character is publically known "infamous" for violent acts / attacks on civilian targets, reknown bank robber, etc...the escalation may skip steps. Instead of going: Beat Cop > Squad > SWAT > National Guard >...Your rep upon the random chance triggering the event, place you at SWAT, or higher up (this is all example only).
Civilians should react. As a player continues in their act of violence / crime civilians should take cover, cower, make for the exit, leave the area. If your character is nearby / in sight, they might take cover or cower, should you move on, they may take the chance to leave. Depending on the escalation of the event, such as in a squad or higher, they may leave the immediate area.
Informal PvP: players using factions to hinder or help other players in their cause. Example: your going to trigger an open-world pvp event by robbing the Titan City's 1st National Bank. You want to keep the authorities busy, so you use your "good faction rep" with a gang, mob, merc team and "hire" them out to cause some havoc, or have other players cause trouble to distract the local police from intervening and escalating your even too quickly. Other players can now defeat the new gang, mob, merc team spawns which allow the "good" npc factions such as SWAT etc.. to get through and hinder your robbery.
Formal PvP: these could be based on location (type of pvp event) and / or via escalation whereby at a certain point you become flagged (should be prompted via warning). Or at any time by accepting a duel from another player within the escalation cycle, a result of your defeat ends the event.
Consequences: loss of faction / rep standing with particular factions could be considered by some as a type of repurcussion, however to some players this may be more of a boon than a consequence. Keep in mind your rep with a faction may affect what access to info you have to gain leads to missions. Never the less, some players may simply not care or have gone through the content and the loss of the faction won't hinder them anymore or by much.
Should being defeated in higher levels of escalation carry with it some form of consequence? Obviously we can't go through the tedium of the arrest, holding, bail / jail, trial etc...Nor do we want players auto-ported to jail where they simply start fighint their way out - that'd probably trigger an event all over anyway. So if there is a consequence for high level escalated events, what should they be?
What if being defeated "publically" causes you to lose faction standing with factions who you were in good standing with? They saw on tv / heard / personally watched you try to do whatever, and fail, or saw / heard you try to stop the bad guys and fail. They lose respect or fear you a little less.
Resetting or lowering your escalation trigger. You've been taken down a notch so to speak. Now you have to work harder to get to that bigger event again.
Keep those ideas coming,and if you have any specific comments to anything I've stated, please post them.
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- Combat Mechanic -
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HaHaHaHahaha!!! You know how some games let you "replay" a cool move or your last battle? Well imagine picking yourself up and dusting yourself off, walking into a bar or seeing a TV in a store window, and there's a news story showing you getting your butt handed to you by Captain Amazing!
Steve
___
"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely [i]will not stop, ever,[/i] until we are live!"
Warcabbit
Lol. Why not, I guess? You know, at least in novels, that sort of thing does happen: the villain gets shown up and has to re-establish his authority because the guys who used to listen to him think they can get away with stuff now. Real life too. Street rep just works that way. Making players work to keep their 'bad guy aura' going is very realistic with great immersive value. And if they don't like it, they can play smart and seek to avoid any such compromising situations, playing that game a different way.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
Possible consequences could be:
A 5% influence/Infamy Fine.
More debt as compared to normal death.
Public humiliation by a server wide broadcast saying you died.
Loss of reputation.
% chance walking by a civilian will cause the civilian to laugh at or mock you for getting wrecked by the police: "Hey look it's AttackMan! Some supervillian he is." Or "Did you hear about AttackMan? He can't even stand up against a few of Titan City's finest"
Reduced chance for item drop for 20 minutes after death, this effect stacks and renews.
Just some seeding ideas. Something that has to be noted is that beating up civilians, although it needs to be punished from a realism standpoint. This is a feature, not a hindrance. TO avoid that it cannot be anything severe, but instead things that add up to become severe over time. The penalty probably should not hinder performance either. Something i never understood about a game like champions online is if you can't beat the objective with +15% damage, why take away their damage and make them less effective?
With a penalty, there should be some kind of reward. Perhaps 5% higher exp the higher tier the police force gets, Eg: Swat give 100 exp, national guard give 110 exp because they are harder to get to. If attacking civilians provokes an event, then there has to be a reason to provoke said event, otherwise it would be a hindrance.
I say scratch public humiliation, permanently and in all forms. I just cannot see this as a good idea. That includes civilians mocking you. We're playing a game. When you have to take certain actions to balance your stock with NPC's, that's one thing. When real players are brought in - and they could do anything, forever - that's something else entirely. Humiliation is much more powerful than you seem to think and should only be employed for crimes against other players, if at all (actually, that might be much more effective anti-griefing than many more private methods. Imagine if a consistent verbal abuser triggered a zone wide message when he logged in warning everyone about him for a week *evil grin*).
Other people can see civilians mocking you, so it counts.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
One thing I been wondering with the rep system and proposed idea of civilian attacking and flagging for PvP.
If reputation would be on the line, I think one thing that should massively effect reputation more than even dying is showing up gun ho, then high tailing it out as soon as ya start to get ya butt handed to you when the numbers are even. In realism, a hero that fight until they ant anymore usually gain a lot of respect even if they die or are defeated compared to one that runs away like a coward. Even villain side, if one fights for real, they may take a pride lumping from their group but if they outright become a coward and flee when the odds are even, then they usually are viewed as weak and usually other groups see them as weak and take over and or their own men kick them out.
AKA, if one starts a PVP fight, people are watching ,people want ot be saved, and nothing kill confidence in a hero especially if they tuck tail run away yellow bellied as soon as they get punched.
Fight and lose but stand their ground people may say "hey, Super Mega Gunz lost that fight but he put up one hell of a fight."
Comapared to- "Hey there go Super Mega Gunz, the coward. Yeah don't count on him saving anyone he rather run away."
Oh yeah and of course the victor should get a decent sized rep boost for making the hero or villain flee in fear of them.
(remember assuming the odds are even such as one villain player and one hero player show up and fight)
What about me, Joe Schmoe, 5th level, pulling a jewelry heist, and right next door the Mighty Dorkmeister, 52nd level, is generating a disturbance.
Do the 5th level cops that show up for me co-mingle with the 50th level cops that show up for him? Do I get turned into oatmeal?
Steve
___
"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely [i]will not stop, ever,[/i] until we are live!"
Warcabbit
I say base it on Diff Level. Level 1 (lowest): You cannot hit civilians except with buffs. Level 2: You can hit civilians but must target them directly, no AoE spillover. Level 3+: Yes, you CAN hit civvies. Let those hard-core uber players try their 'sweep the whole room dead in 12 seconds' combo when there are 4 hostages in the center of the room. Talk about a challenge...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
This is a valid concern, I'll posit some possibilities to avoiding / mitigating this below.
I'd like to avoid players buffing / debuffing civilians in general. This could easily lead to problems.
If we can do this, I'd like to avoid any attack powers affecting a civilian at all unless a civilian was specifically mouse targeted.
There are a couple of ways we can explore preventing snate56's concern. These "player triggered events" I'm currently designating Disturbances, could be based on the level of the area / zone, not the level of the player. A high level character trying to cause a disturbance in a low level area may be able to cause the disturbance, but all the triggers would be beneath their notice (level) and thus, there would be no reward. Ultimately, every type of game play experience whether that is instanced missions, out door dev designed events, or player triggered events, come down to the "fun of play" and the reward for doing so. If there is no reward to be had, there's less incentive to engage in that activity.
We could also tie in the rep system. A high level character getting involved in things beneath their notice (level) may be "looked down upon" by others. "Why is Dr. McNuker messing around with Disctict 5 PD when he's normally involved in some global conspiracy?"
Specific PvP oriented open-world locations which may appear in lower level areas could have their own instance / phase so low level players don't get disrupted. Or we could be careful about our level design so that low level spawns and mission locations aren't set in the areas where open-world pvp events can occur.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Another possibility for Snates concern could be do what CoH did for rikti. That is, make the spawns do % damage instead of solid amounts of damage. That way it is always fair, it doesn't have to be zone specific, the player is less restricted in places they can mess around in, and the level 5 new player that wants to participate in the 50's battle wont necessarily get is face served on a metal platter. :)
Scaling enemies is certainly a possibility, I'll add it to the list with caveats; since these events could be triggered by players, we won't want this abused in some way to create an form of "pl". Dev designed events with scaling enemies is something we've discussed, but nothing is cemented yet. We also don't want to disrupt the regular feel of the game if we have level based zones / areas where on a regular basis, there are a number of spawns around which scale with level and break the general designed stream for the area and levels. Which is the main difference, a dev designed event, even if it has a trigger, wouldn't be as consistant as a player targeting civilians...
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
"If there is no reward to be had, there's less incentive to engage in that activity."
Some people just want to watch the world burn....
;)
Steve
___
"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely [i]will not stop, ever,[/i] until we are live!"
Warcabbit
Some, not most ;)
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Haha fair enough :)
In the case of RPing villains though, it may be more common.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
The point above about Rikti is why I made the "Scale every NPC" thread: http://missingworldsmedia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2109
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No signature yet!
In that regard if All Encounters used a % instead of a specific amount - all encounters would be completable(is that a word?) by all Levels.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Tamorand
Tamorand = (Tahm-o-rand) This name originated from the days of Ultima Online. My first character was a Tamer and a Minstrel and an Archer and a Mage - I couldn't figure out a name to portray all skills in a single word. Hence **Tamer + And ** /shrug
Which is why with sufficient consequences to such actions, those who want to RP in such a way should think about doing so in lower level areas and stay with level appropriate content. Look at the possible consequences: Loss of one or more faction rep - which as further consequences associated with it, decreased ability to gain new stages of the event (and thus earn a reward in your level appropriate place), etc..
If it proves to be too much of an issue, we could very well make it so such player initiated events can only be triggered by level appropriate characters in level appropriate areas. Having a high level character take over the team and be the team leader would cause the leader and other characters of too high a level to experience the consequences.
Or if it proves too be too much of an issue, another route to take is to unfortunately limit the player triggers from anywhere, and limit them to very specific places and / or specific times where such an event can be staged.
I would like to avoid that giving some freedom to players to engage in such content which is why I'd like to explore the possible consequences, and see what hurdles we could have.
With regards to scaling every NPC, as indicated in the linked thread (for those who can access it), such design is full of other hurdles which can prove much more troublesome than its worth to try and simulate a leveless world.
I'm willing to bet since we are looking at a level based system, npcs won't properly scale well with various levels of character nor achieve any of the oft stated "realism" players place on such a concept. A level 1 thug scaled up against a level 30+ character still only has 1 - 2 attacks on a cycle time designated for a wide range of low level character types to engage with, making them nothing more than a nuisance than threat; a low damaging bag of hit points which won't serve to create the engaging encounters of more level appropriate npcs.
And its not just the npcs scaling up which is a problem, but the content as well. If everything from npc to the content, which entails everything from mission maps, every aspect of an encounter, to the build up for stories (lore) designed around the content must scale as well. It would exponentially increase the workload of development. I'd much rather have a working game with level based content which has its own limitations for game play in a few years instead of possibly a "some what" leveless world we might see in two to three times longer.
Please bear in mind, some of this is my own opinion and there is much for us to explore as we design the game.
Scaling special encounters is something which we'll probably explore at some point. It may have its place, but it also may not be necessary depending on some of the possible design decisions we make.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I agreee with not level scaling everything. It sounds bad, i know, but i love picking on the level 6 thugs in the Hollows and AP by the dozens
And I tended to only pick on the ones actively doing crimes, I left the groups of guys standing around talking alone! ;)
Steve
___
"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely [i]will not stop, ever,[/i] until we are live!"
Warcabbit
Hah me too! Something i love doing with my Dual pistols/Kinetics corruptor (level 38 at time of shutdown) was load in cryo ammo, got to a hellion stealing a handbag and see how long i could keep him from leaving the scene of the crime without killing him by spamming suppressive fire and the kinetics speed drain one (i forget the name).
I had two hours of enjoyment, and i'd gladly do it again
I had one guy with that radiation attack that bled off the target to those around him. I would nail one guy with it, agro the crowd, then run away with them following. Then I'd run by other enemy groups so they'd get agro'd. Pretty soon I had a huge crowd of "jogging buddies"! ;)
Steve
___
"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely [i]will not stop, ever,[/i] until we are live!"
Warcabbit
PVP wise, few things are more entertaining where you get an aggressive new player saying that defenders are crap, then have their blaster go against your Sonic/rad defender with hover, stealth and air superiority. The dude literally quit the game cause he could never beat me in pvp... as a matter of fact, he couldn't really hit me... or damage me... or sometimes see me... XD
It's more than that though, it's context. If everything scales up, then there are no effective levels - none of your power-ups make a difference. A perfectly level-less world means a word in which leveling up is perfectly meaningless. How can you tell you've gotten stronger if everything is the same level of challenge forever? What I enjoyed about going back and beating up the lower leveled thugs was the sensation of having become a seasoned, powerful hero. Those guys who used to give me trouble? Child's play now, I'll casually defeat and arrest whole groups, batting leaders about like balloons on my way to a case. Would a world where you couldn't tell you'd gotten stronger by what you fought really be any fun?
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
I completely agree, defiance is a nice example, you never really get any better, it makes the game kind of... tedious
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