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A very good discussion of real vs fantasy female armor

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DesViper
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Cooltastic wrote:
Cooltastic wrote:

Hey Project_Hero. I've been skimming through this thread and all you've proven is that your a SJW feminist.

***WARNING*** SUPER DUPER MEGA PRODUCTIVE CONVERSATION AHEAD!!! PROCEED WITH CAUTION!! ****WARNING****

Give it a minute before the blatant insults, eh?


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Somebody's gotta lock this

Somebody's gotta lock this thread.

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Project_Hero, not try sound

Project_Hero, not trying to sound rude or anything but take those political stuff somewhere else.

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He's allowed to have his

He's allowed to have his opinion. We have been able to have a polite discussion about a topic that can easily lead to flame wars. Why would you all jump in and try and fuel a fire?

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

He's allowed to have his opinion. We have been able to have a polite discussion about a topic that can easily lead to flame wars. Why would you all jump in and try and fuel a fire?

I am not denying that, but it's off topic and has nothing to do with the topic about armory fantasy but just about how he/she feels or is offended by it. Which makes no sense to this discussion at all. The political stuff can be moved to somewhere else but not here, I am pretty sure everybody here is tired of that.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

Somebody's gotta lock this thread.

This thread should've been de facto locked at post 8 :p


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Hablaguy28 wrote:
Hablaguy28 wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

He's allowed to have his opinion. We have been able to have a polite discussion about a topic that can easily lead to flame wars. Why would you all jump in and try and fuel a fire?

I am not denying that, but it's off topic and has nothing to do with the topic about armory fantasy but just about how he/she feels or is offended by it. Which makes no sense to this discussion at all. The political stuff can be moved to somewhere else but not here, I am pretty sure everybody here is tired of that.

The 'political stuff' is a part of the topic and Hero is hardly the only one bringing it up. Singling out Hero is disingenuous. Waiting almost 200 posts in a thread to jump in and essentially tell someone to shut up and go away doesn't exactly lend much to your credibility.
If you are unhappy with the current discussion you can present your own take on the subject, start your own thread or ignore us altogether. Maybe it would be best to go back to quietly reading until you have something meaningful to contribute.

desviper wrote:

This thread should've been de facto locked at post 8 :p

Why? Because someone said something you don't agree with?
Locking a thread should only occur when the discussion turns to outright fighting and most have been pretty civil up till now. Not simply because someone present an opinion that is unpopular. You and warlocc may not find the thread going in a direction you want but neither of you have presented an alternative to the current discussion.
I offer you the same advice I gave Habla, you can present your own take on the subject, start your own thread or ignore us altogether.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Why? Because someone said something you don't agree with?
Locking a thread should only occur when the discussion turns to outright fighting and most have been pretty civil up till now. Not simply because someone present an opinion that is unpopular. You and warlocc may not find the thread going in a direction you want but neither of you have presented an alternative to the current discussion.
I offer you the same advice I gave Habla, you can present your own take on the subject, start your own thread or ignore us altogether.

Because we're at the point where we're apparently telling people "Get out of the thread if you don't like it, you're not allowed to voice your opinion" right after saying that people are allowed to voice their opinion... My suggestion was because I predict things are going to go further downhill from here.

An otherwise decent topic is becoming political and people are starting to call each other names. That's a good time to lock things, in my opinion.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

Because we're at the point where we're apparently telling people "Get out of the thread if you don't like it, you're not allowed to voice your opinion" right after saying that people are allowed to voice their opinion... My suggestion was because I predict things are going to go further downhill from here.

If that's what you took away from my advice then you need to read it again. And you can't post hoc ergo propter hoc your request for locking the thread. And And, you didn't voice an opinion you made a request.

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The discussion up to now,

The discussion up to now, with a few exceptions has been fairly cordial. It has caused me to think of the subjects discussed and I have altered the way I think of character portrayals in games, which makes it a good discussion in my eyes. I might not fully agree with everything said, but it made me think.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
warlocc wrote:

Because we're at the point where we're apparently telling people "Get out of the thread if you don't like it, you're not allowed to voice your opinion" right after saying that people are allowed to voice their opinion... My suggestion was because I predict things are going to go further downhill from here.

If that's what you took away from my advice then you need to read it again. And you can't post hoc ergo propter hoc your request for locking the thread. And And, you didn't voice an opinion you made a request.

My loose example was just that, a loose example. Don't read too much into it.
I offered my opinion earlier in the thread.
I later suggested the thread should be locked before it declines. And like it or not, it is now declining, with my example only being a small part of it.
I'll be surprised if it doesn't get worse.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

Reading a thread with Lothic and Project Hero aguing is wonderful. It's like watching a wormhole inside a wormhole and the universe folding in on itself.

It may swallow us all, but what a ride.

For what it's worth I hope people here have noticed that I've actually avoided posting in this thread for roughly a week and only post here now to mention that.

My gods does this mean I've actually learned a bit of self-control in my old age? Say it isn't so... ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

I offered my opinion earlier in the thread.

I think i'm missing something because the only opinion I can find you expressing is that you think the thread is a waste of time. Can you point me to what I missed?
This is not meant in a confrontational way, I honestly didn't find anything when I looked.

warlocc wrote:

I later suggested the thread should be locked before it declines. And like it or not, it is now declining, with my example only being a small part of it.
I'll be surprised if it doesn't get worse.

I guess I have more faith in people. I think it's premature to request a threadlock after two misguided posts.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
warlocc wrote:

I later suggested the thread should be locked before it declines. And like it or not, it is now declining, with my example only being a small part of it.
I'll be surprised if it doesn't get worse.

I guess I have more faith in people. I think it's premature to request a threadlock after two misguided posts.

I basically always chuckle whenever someone actively calls out for a threadlock on this forum considering there have been much worse threads that have lingered on for years that were -never- locked as far as I'm aware.

I do know for a fact that a few threads have been haphazardly locked over the years and some individual posts have (from time to time) been mod-smacked when (I guess?) they finally got bad enough. But to say there's any real consistent oversight here is being "overly generous" at best.

Obviously that might change once CoT becomes an official game and MWM (presumably) hires dedicated people as full-time Mods for this site. But until that happens please don't believe there's any rhyme-or-reason for what gets "policed" around here.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
warlocc wrote:

I offered my opinion earlier in the thread.

I think i'm missing something because the only opinion I can find you expressing is that you think the thread is a waste of time. Can you point me to what I missed?
This is not meant in a confrontational way, I honestly didn't find anything when I looked.

I made a bunch of posts, but the relevant was opining that sometimes people just want a fantasy character to look cool or look sexy and there are no other, ulterior motives in it.

Brainbot wrote:
warlocc wrote:

I later suggested the thread should be locked before it declines. And like it or not, it is now declining, with my example only being a small part of it.
I'll be surprised if it doesn't get worse.

I guess I have more faith in people. I think it's premature to request a threadlock after two misguided posts.

I won't lie. I'm jaded. I don't trust people to do the right thing, ever. My entire RL job industry exists because people can't be trusted.

Lothic wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
warlocc wrote:

I later suggested the thread should be locked before it declines. And like it or not, it is now declining, with my example only being a small part of it.
I'll be surprised if it doesn't get worse.

I guess I have more faith in people. I think it's premature to request a threadlock after two misguided posts.

I basically always chuckle whenever someone actively calls out for a threadlock on this forum considering there have been much worse threads that have lingered on for years that were -never- locked as far as I'm aware.

I do know for a fact that a few threads have been haphazardly locked over the years and some individual posts have (from time to time) been mod-smacked when (I guess?) they finally got bad enough. But to say there's any real consistent oversight here is being "overly generous" at best.

Obviously that might change once CoT becomes an official game and MWM (presumably) hires dedicated people as full-time Mods for this site. But until that happens please don't believe there's any rhyme-or-reason for what gets "policed" around here.

Forum moderation has definitely been inconsistent over the years, we can definitely agree on that.

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What disappoints me here is

What disappoints me here is that PH hasn't posted since. Thought he had more heart. So someone called him an SJW feminist, in other news water is wet. He never tried to hide it or seemed to be ashamed of it before. He was pretty open about it honestly. I figured that's why other folks were working to contain him too. (It's not like we actively colluded over beer and pretzels, multiple folks just seemed to reach the same conclusion.)

And if I'm being honest I PM'd Shadow Elusive to look at the AAA games thread in hopes he would decide to lock that before this thread started. (Warning: if PH set your teeth on edge in this thread, do NOT look at the AAA games thread!)

And I get that SJWs seem like natural enemies to us, but I also believe in looking at individual actions. And for all of what I'll call his personality quirks, I don't believe he was, or will be, a threat. Dude seemed socially awkward to me and I doubt he makes friends easily.

Sounds like a nerd to me.

Sounds like... one of us.

PH's signature reads "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." Thing is, we had a GREAT past in CoH. And I don't want to let it die. One of the many, many great things about CoH was the awesome community. We had a rep for being helpful and welcoming and friendly. And I would very much like to keep that in CoT going forward. Driving someone off the forums for having a different view doesn't seem like ... us. We shouldn't let this become the norm. We're not mods, but we can influence each other and set examples worth following. Here on this forum, we can be our better selves. We can be Titans.

And just so I have something actually ON the thread topic. SWAT team members have great armor, but they hardly wear it all the time.

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

What disappoints me here is that PH hasn't posted since. Thought he had more heart. So someone called him an SJW feminist, in other news water is wet. He never tried to hide it or seemed to be ashamed of it before. He was pretty open about it honestly. I figured that's why other folks were working to contain him too. (It's not like we actively colluded over beer and pretzels, multiple folks just seemed to reach the same conclusion.)

And if I'm being honest I PM'd Shadow Elusive to look at the AAA games thread in hopes he would decide to lock that before this thread started. (Warning: if PH set your teeth on edge in this thread, do NOT look at the AAA games thread!)

And I get that SJWs seem like natural enemies to us, but I also believe in looking at individual actions. And for all of what I'll call his personality quirks, I don't believe he was, or will be, a threat. Dude seemed socially awkward to me and I doubt he makes friends easily.

Sounds like a nerd to me.

Sounds like... one of us.

PH's signature reads "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." Thing is, we had a GREAT past in CoH. And I don't want to let it die. One of the many, many great things about CoH was the awesome community. We had a rep for being helpful and welcoming and friendly. And I would very much like to keep that in CoT going forward. Driving someone off the forums for having a different view doesn't seem like ... us. We shouldn't let this become the norm. We're not mods, but we can influence each other and set examples worth following. Here on this forum, we can be our better selves. We can be Titans.

And just so I have something actually ON the thread topic. SWAT team members have great armor, but they hardly wear it all the time.

He/she might just be busy with life, that happens to all of us every now and then.

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

And I get that SJWs seem like natural enemies to us,

I'm a SJW. I just don't attack symptoms of larger problems or assume that there is a deliberate effort behind all social injustice.

And Hero wasn't being as political as he is being accused of. Despite being able to tell there was a moral outrage behind his opinion, hero was, if anything, making a lot of effort to not allow his moral politics be the basis of his arguments despite how difficult that is when you believe something as strongly as he seems to. It's why the discussion stayed as civil as it did.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

[woquote=warlocc]For what it's worth I hope people here have noticed that I've actually avoided posting in this thread for roughly a week and only post here now to mention that.

My gods does this mean I've actually learned a bit of self-control in my old age? Say it isn't so... ;)

Or maybe your bored with the same ol' arguments and just can't be bothered to reply to them? After all, we're both old enough to lay honest claim to "bin der, seen dat". ????

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StellarAgent wrote:
StellarAgent wrote:
Lothic wrote:

For what it's worth I hope people here have noticed that I've actually avoided posting in this thread for roughly a week and only post here now to mention that.

My gods does this mean I've actually learned a bit of self-control in my old age? Say it isn't so... ;)

Or maybe your bored with the same ol' arguments and just can't be bothered to reply to them? After all, we're both old enough to lay honest claim to "bin der, seen dat". ????

Well admittedly once you've made your point 10 times in a row it does get a little boring at least until the next thread pops up. ;)

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So, I wanted to say that:

So, I wanted to say that:

I love using skimpy armor on females, but I always try to combine it with something to cover up some parts with robes, jackets, or whatever. The reason: fashion. I love to dress up characters, regardless of gender. It should look good and match the character's personality.

So, if there's chain mail and I can combine it with something good looking, I will use it. Of course, if people don't like that, I won't complain or say that they're wrong. Taste is subjective and everyone does have a different one.
I don't see humans as objects, but I do that with virtual characters, as I think the person behind the avatar is the more important aspect.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

I'm a SJW. I just don't attack symptoms of larger problems or assume that there is a deliberate effort behind all social injustice.

And Hero wasn't being as political as he is being accused of. Despite being able to tell there was a moral outrage behind his opinion, hero was, if anything, making a lot of effort to not allow his moral politics be the basis of his arguments despite how difficult that is when you believe something as strongly as he seems to. It's why the discussion stayed as civil as it did.

I get that in this day and age people need to be more aware of things like gender bias, sexism, inequality, etc. But like with most extreme positions being "extremely socially woke/aware" is pretty much just as annoying and destructive as being guilty of those negative qualities you're supposedly against. In other words being an "uber SJW" is not necessarily a -good- thing to be.

While Project_Hero tends to argue as a hardline SJWer I never assume that's what he might be IRL. To let you guys in on a little trade secret I often argue points on this forum that don't actually line up perfectly with my own personal beliefs. I often find that it's good mental exercise to play Devil's Advocate and argue for positions that are, shall we say, less than popular just to keep conversations actively dynamic. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. In the long run I'm not keeping score either way. ;)

Back on topic there's probably a point to be made that many females in fantasy/superhero settings are far more often relegated/forced to dress like Red Sonja than males are. Obviously when one sex is overwhelmingly shown only wearing non-skimpy plate armor and the other sex is shown only in skimpy chainmail bikinis then you've probably got an unequal sexist situation on your hands. But the problem Project_Hero had trying to argue that legitimate point is that he came up with this very silly strawman notion that "everyone in fantasy settings reflexively prefers to wear plate armor because it offers BETTER PROTECTION" as if that was the SOLUTION to the sexism in fantasy settings. It's not a question of whether a character's clothing is PROTECTIVE or not - it's whether it's too SKIMPY or not. In fantasy settings protection does not always equal metal armor and bare skin does not always equal unprotected.

Bottomline I do not believe the solution to sexism and/or inequality in fantasy/superhero genres is to put ALL females in burka-like outfits (i.e. full plate armor). The solution would be to depict more males in equivalently skimpy outfits (i.e. Sean Connery in Zardoz). It's not the existence of skimpy outfits in general that's the issue - the problem is that too often only one sex wears them.

Kuraikari wrote:

I love using skimpy armor on females, but I always try to combine it with something to cover up some parts with robes, jackets, or whatever. The reason: fashion. I love to dress up characters, regardless of gender. It should look good and match the character's personality.

So, if there's chain mail and I can combine it with something good looking, I will use it. Of course, if people don't like that, I won't complain or say that they're wrong. Taste is subjective and everyone does have a different one.

I don't see humans as objects, but I do that with virtual characters, as I think the person behind the avatar is the more important aspect.

The irony of all this of course is that if I personally had either a perfectly ripped Herculean male superhero type body with 8-pack abs or a perfectly toned slim-waisted, large chested female superheroine type body I'd probably want to show it off with the skimpiest, most revealing outfit I could get away with. Why would anyone not want to do that? In a nutshell if I looked like either of these two:

why would I not want to dress as they do?

Having said that I've created hundreds of RPG characters of all shapes/sizes/genders and so on for all sorts of games. Some have been "sexy", some haven't. Some have worn their genre equivalent of chainmail bikinis, some haven't. Whether or not I decide to "justify" a character's clothing choice via a RP detail/decision is up to whether it's important to the character concept or not.

If someone like Project_Hero wants to assume the ONLY SINGLE REASON a player would want to make a character "sexy" or "scantily clad" is because they want to have/see a sexy character that's Project_Hero lack of imagination at work, not mine. I've decided I can't really dispel his apparent prejudices and/or naivety on this particular subject so I'm not going to keep trying to do that in this thread. As I joked earlier I'll just try to save his soul in the next thread that pops up. *shrugs*

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One of the things that was

One of the things that was brought up in part was the idea of granting characters their costume based on their personality. That, to me, is a really important thing that even most professional character designs are at fault of missing. It's not just in armor, though it's much easier to tell among armor when something is designed for sex appeal and aesthetics rather than practicality.

A great example of this is Power Girl. Take a look at the image in this link; it's not official artwork, but it shows off the costume Power Girl wears in its entirety; a swimsuit cut leotard with a cleavage window cut out, and a cape that's on the costume with a golden rope for a bit of majesty (which is entirely appropriate for a character as powerful as she is). Thing is, a ton of writers have attempted to figure out why exactly she's got that cleavage window there and what's going on with it, but no explanation has actually really stuck. The legs are similarly exposed. The thing with Power Girl is that while a lot of people like her, every thing I've found online talking about her has questioned why she's in that particular outfit - it doesn't fit her character, as she's a hotheaded and aggressive feminist, which her outfit is sort of in direct opposition to. Certainly, we get why she's designed the way she is out of character - it's attractive to show off some leg, and she's well known for being the chestiest heroine in the DC comics line - but there's never been an adequate way to make her personality and costume choice line up.

Contrast this with Bayonetta. Ignoring how it was made for a moment, her costume is a skin-tight layer of black clothing with a mantle around her shoulders all accented with diamond cutouts to show the pantyhose on her legs and the silver inlay on various parts of her torso, capped off with full-arm white gloves, all while several magical charms hang off her body in various places, to say nothing for the fact that she uses both her hands and feet to wield her high-end magical guns. Here's an interesting thing about her though: Nobody discusses her outfit. Even while revealing less of her body than Power Girl (even to the point of having an extra layer covering signficiant portions of her torso!), it somehow maintains itself being considerably more sexual because the person wearing the outfit is sexual. Bayonetta was designed in a feminist way, but in a completely different direction than Power Girl. Where Power Girl is a hotheaded, argumentative, man-hating woman, Bayonetta is entirely friendly with men, utilizing her sexuality to shock and stun people. In the games, her sexually charged movements and actions don't last long enough to get someone off; they're instead treated more like a weapon she's in full control of, hitting every once in a while while she's killing people, and using them simply to throw off everybody watching, not lasting long enough for real titilation. Her actions and movements show she's in control of herself, and she even winks at the camera in the second game after doing a few sexy attacks. She is in full control of her movements, her body, and her sexuality, and she's just inviting us along for the show. Because of this, her outfit showing off her (weirdly long) legs, the makeup on her face, is vastly more sexual than Power Girl's more revealing outfit. The outfit accentuates her most prominent attributes (her rear and her legs) without detracting from the rest of her. The outfit FITS her in a way that few characters can manage.

One of the only other characters i'm actually qualified to talk about in this regard is my own character, Scaleback. I designed her with the loose idea of how kcikboxers dress (hand protection, leg protection, shorts for mobility, shirt that's covering without being constricting. Despite this, I also intended to show off a bit of vanity under that layer of practicality - she didn't have to get a belly shirt. She didn't have to get shorts that cling tightly to her legs. the waist cape was unnecessary, but looks cool. She also wears a wig - no hair, because she has scales, but she likes having hair, even though she doesn't have it naturally, which is an angle I don't think many people explore with their obviously inhuman characters. Her stance, her outfit, and her design should all say a lot about her personality, and in effect, they do.

The reason I bring this up is simple; graphic design is all about getting a message across. A significant part of armor design is keeping you from getting killed. The overlap for them is a really interesting topic, because to some degree, you need the armor to get across what kind of person is wearing it if you don't want the character to be a faceless mook, but actually connecting the outfit to the person wearing it can be a difficult proposition. A good graphic design explains the kind of person the character is, what they do, and who they are in one go, and it's only when a design fails to explain one or more of those points that I feel it has failed. a lot of armor and poses in fantasy art that deal with female characters going into battle in skimpy armor is actually a failure on that front, because someone who's a great warrior should look the part, and it's only when they've hit a point where there's literally no challenge anymore and therefore they're handicapping themselves should they resort to something that's weaker. Alternately, they're wearing something enchanted, and it doesn't NEED to be perfectly well designed because the enchantment covers it better than anything a flimsy piece of plate can handle. If something looks impractical, but is awesome in a way that can fit the character, I'll give it a pass because frankly that's cool and a good way to handle it. That's what the outfits characters wear should be about, with practicality considered if it fits what the character does and who they are.

In character design, I feel that getting across the message of who the character is is more important in outfit design than basically anything else, and understanding characters that regularly do dangerous things they should have some form of self-rptoection, or be so far beyond it that they don't NEED that kind of protection, as is the case with the characters in the images I linked above. As a result, in my opinion, fantastical armor that specifically defines a woman's bust or something is alright, so long as it retains practicality for what she's going to be doing with her days. in equivalence, it always bothers me when a guy goes shirtless or whatnot unless he has literally nothing to fear; I'd accept it from Superman, but not Batman, in most circumstances, if that makes sense. I'd accept this uber-powerful monk who's trained so hard he can deflect swords with his manly pecs, but not a knight deciding to duel someone without armor.

PS: This was not addressed at anyone in particular, I just felt like it was related to the topic at hand and has been something I wanted to discuss for a while.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I get that in this day and age people need to be more aware of things like gender bias, sexism, inequality, etc. But like with most extreme positions being "extremely socially woke/aware" is pretty much just as annoying and destructive as being guilty of those negative qualities you're supposedly against. In other words being an "uber SJW" is not necessarily a -good- thing to be.

This isn't for you Lothic, I just wanted to expand on your thought.

Modern SJW's level of commitment (being uber SJW) is a byproduct of a deeper issues. The insincerity and lack of knowledge to their arguments is the core to the problems with the current trend in SJW.
Many rally behind a specific cause for the sole purpose of improving their standing in certain social circles without true conviction or understanding of the issues they fight against. Their goal is not to right an injustice, it's to elevate their value to a community. This feeds on itself as each member of that community try to obtain higher and higher levels of authority in those circles through the use of moral outrage.
This type of rampant ignorance and selfishness in modern SJW's is the most damaging to a cause. Without an understanding (of even a desire to understand) the greater issue, these people focus their fight on the symptoms because the symptoms are easier to devise arguments against and score minor victories in. Those victories only shift the symptom to a new area resulting in no progress to a cause while making the next attempt more difficult.

As an example, in this thread people have championed the idea that a solution to the inequality of scantily clad female vs modestly dressed male characters is to simply offer the same level of scantily clad options to males and modest options to females. The common argument is that doing this will make things 'fair'.
I have no issue with more costume choices for male and female characters in a game, in fact I all but demand as many options as possible.
But saying those options make fix anything is misinformed.

One of two things will happen when you offer the same amount of scantily clad and modest options between the sexes.

Either the options will be exactly the same (example-Batman wearing Wonder Woman's armor) or they will be designed to accentuate the appeal of a female different than the male (example- Conan vs Red Sonja).
If the options are the same then you will see far far fewer Batmen wearing a Wonder Woman outfit than Wonder Women who wear the Wonder Woman outfit. This will result in the same perception and resulting arguments about costume inequality from the same uninformed SJW's.
If the options are designed to accentuate men and women different then the same arguments about inequality will arise because things are not exactly equal.
The sad byproduct of this is that making lasting change becomes more difficult because it becomes easier and easier to just dismiss any attempts at progression (including impactful progression) as 'just another SJW cause'. We have seen evidence of this in this thread. I myself operated under the assumption that some arguments were just baseless SJW propaganda (although in my defense I did seek more information before acting on that assumption).

Again, I still want there to be the options available, but they are not a cure for anything.

This brings me back to the modern SJW's selfishness and ignorance resulting in either no change or making things worse in the long run.

As for Project _Hero, he should not be lumped in with the problematic SJW's of the world. I do believe he is not as informed as he could be on the issue he is arguing, but he seems to be sincere in his opinion and not using this cause to simply improve his self worth. I respect his opinion and conviction even if I don't agree with him.

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I gotta find a slur for

I gotta find a slur for people who always type in multiple paragraphs :p


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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I gotta find a slur for people who always type in multiple paragraphs :p

Voluble? Garrulous?

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No, a slur :p "The long

No, a slur :p "The long-talkers are here" idk, derogatory jeers aren't my specialty


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Try "Ramblers"

Try "Ramblers"

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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Oral incontinents.

Oral incontinents.

It means having constant uncontrollable verbal diarrhea.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I gotta find a slur for people who always type in multiple paragraphs :p

I always thought that was what "TL;DR" was for. ;)

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

As an example, in this thread people have championed the idea that a solution to the inequality of scantily clad female vs modestly dressed male characters is to simply offer the same level of scantily clad options to males and modest options to females. The common argument is that doing this will make things 'fair'.
I have no issue with more costume choices for male and female characters in a game, in fact I all but demand as many options as possible.
But saying those options make fix anything is misinformed.

One of two things will happen when you offer the same amount of scantily clad and modest options between the sexes.
[...]
Again, I still want there to be the options available, but they are not a cure for anything.

You claim that making sure that every character regardless of sex having access to all the costume options in a game (a.k.a. no gender locked items) will not necessarily "solve" the problem here.

While I could grant you it might not be a "complete/universal" silver bullet solution it's at least a step in the right direction and is more of a "solution" than the one you've offered here which as far as I can see is NOTHING. As a self-proclaimed SJW you complain about a problem yet offer NOTHING as an attempt to address it. I'd at least rather see the baby step of costume equality exist in a game like CoT than to do NOTHING about this issue at all.

The operative phrase that comes to mind here is, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink". Sure as you say even if a game offers both males and females the option to wear skimpy outfits there's no guarantee what individual players will do with that. Some might mix things up 50/50 while others might still only put females in the proverbial chainmail bikinis. I still contend it's the BEST SOLUTION to the problem from MWM's point of view because at least they can honestly claim they "leveled the playing field" and then it would be up to players to decide how to handle it.

In the future if you can offer a more completely universal solution to this issue I'd be happy to hear it. Until then let's be happy MWM has claimed they will try their best to avoid gender locking anything in CoT.

Brainbot wrote:

As for Project _Hero, he should not be lumped in with the problematic SJW's of the world. I do believe he is not as informed as he could be on the issue he is arguing, but he seems to be sincere in his opinion and not using this cause to simply improve his self worth. I respect his opinion and conviction even if I don't agree with him.

If Project_Hero stopped tossing out random strawmen I might be more inclined to respect his position on topics like this. Until then it's convenient enough for me to lump him in with the "problematic SJW's of the world". *shrugs*

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Halae wrote:
Halae wrote:

One of the things that was brought up in part was the idea of granting characters their costume based on their personality. That, to me, is a really important thing that even most professional character designs are at fault of missing.

My basic point of view on this (which I've tangentially mentioned several times on this thread already) is that I always let the character concept "decide" the kind of clothing a character wears. Sadly I know most people don't take the time/effort to make characters that way but I'll explain what I mean here with some specific examples.

For instance back in CoH I created several what I generically call "sexy librarian" type characters. I've made both male and female versions of this. Essentially I would make these characters physically attractive/appealing but would go out of my way to specifically NOT have them wear skimpy, skin-revealing outfits. The challenge was to have them look sexy without overtly "exposing" them. On the other end of the spectrum I once created a "Fat Bastard" type character (made famous in the Austin Powers movies) who was a big, fat slobby guy who liked to prance around as nude as he could get away with. It was gross caricature to be sure but it drove home the point that skimpy outfits should not be reserved only for arguably "physically attractive" characters. These are just a couple of examples of the type of "diversity" I strive for while making characters.

So for my part when I turn around and finally decide I want to create a legitimate Red Sonya "chainmail bikini babe" clone I don't need some random holier-than-thou SJW chewing my ass out for being an "insensitive pig" just because they caught the maybe 1 out of 20th character I decided to make that way. I can't help there are still horny 13 year old boys out there who ONLY make joke female characters as nude as possible and I refuse to let those kind of immature idiots ruin my legitimate ability to make a character ANY WAY I WANT without being reflexively criticized for it.

If you're the type of person who sees a "chainmail bikini babe" in a game and AUTOMATICALLY ASSUMES that it must be a joke character made by someone full of "toxic masculinity" (or whatever the latest insultive snarl phrase is today) then that's YOUR F@#KING PROBLEM, not mine. Those snowflake-type people need to get a grip, stop jumping to conclusions and mind their own flipping business...

P.S. To be clear I'm not mad/upset with you Halae, just the situation in general and the way people tend to react to it.

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We gotta rambler!!

We gotta rambler!!


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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

We gotta rambler!!

Honestly that term just makes -you- sound silly. You've already effectively shown your "disapproval" of these walls-of-text isn't enough to stop them from happening...

If you really want something different than "TL;DR" you need to put your thinking cap on and try again.

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I might just go with

I might just go with paragrapher.

I saw a tweet a bit ago that had a good one but I forgot it

Edit: no it was a facebook page "Making White Dudes Type Paragraphs"


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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I might just go with paragrapher.

I saw a tweet a bit ago that had a good one but I forgot it

Edit: no it was a facebook page "Making White Dudes Type Paragraphs"

TL;DR ;)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
desviper wrote:

I might just go with paragrapher.

I saw a tweet a bit ago that had a good one but I forgot it

Edit: no it was a facebook page "Making White Dudes Type Paragraphs"

TL;DR ;)

Fine, you can have your own special term ;p


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

While I could grant you it might not be a "complete/universal" silver bullet solution it's at least a step in the right direction and is more of a "solution" than the one you've offered here which as far as I can see is NOTHING. As a self-proclaimed SJW you complain about a problem yet offer NOTHING as an attempt to address it. I'd at least rather see the baby step of costume equality exist in a game like CoT than to do NOTHING about this issue at all.

Post #81 in this thread.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:

While I could grant you it might not be a "complete/universal" silver bullet solution it's at least a step in the right direction and is more of a "solution" than the one you've offered here which as far as I can see is NOTHING. As a self-proclaimed SJW you complain about a problem yet offer NOTHING as an attempt to address it. I'd at least rather see the baby step of costume equality exist in a game like CoT than to do NOTHING about this issue at all.

Post #81 in this thread.

lol it helps when you refer to a post last month when I wasn't around to read it. Obviously I'm not claiming it's your fault for me not being around at that point, but you will have to cut me some slack for not being aware of this post you're citing.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

lol it helps when you refer to a post last month when I wasn't around to read it. Obviously I'm not claiming it's your fault for me not being around at that point, but you will have to cut me some slack for not being aware of this post you're citing.

No worries. I figured you hadn't read it so I just pointed you to it. Earlier I also said that I didn't think this was the place to get into the broader issue so I didn't bring it up after being asked this question by project_hero. Easy to miss.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:

lol it helps when you refer to a post last month when I wasn't around to read it. Obviously I'm not claiming it's your fault for me not being around at that point, but you will have to cut me some slack for not being aware of this post you're citing.

No worries. I figured you hadn't read it so I just pointed you to it. Earlier I also said that I didn't think this was the place to get into the broader issue so I didn't bring it up after being asked this question by project_hero. Easy to miss.

Now that I've actually read the post in question your "solution" seems to be "things are getting better already in general based on studies being done". Gee that's not a bunch of hand-waviness is it?

Sure we all hope MWM will do everything it can to help this issue along. I simply feel having "no gender locked costume items" will be among their first-best steps towards a long term solution. What us silly players end up doing with it is always another matter...

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Lothic][quote=Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Now that I've actually read the post in question your "solution" seems to be "things are getting better already in general based on studies being done". Gee that's not a bunch of hand-waveiness is it?

Developers adopting and designing products for a new market source (female gamers), getting studies which provide more information and adapting other successful measures to combat social ills towards this issue are hardly hand waving.

Gender locked costumes or not, the first best step MWM can take is to not objectify women, not re-enforce archaic gender roles and not rely on outdated stereotypes for their portrayal of women. I have faith they will not fall into any of those traps.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Gender locked costumes or not, the first best step MWM can take is to not objectify women, not re-enforce archaic gender roles and not rely on outdated stereotypes for their portrayal of women. I have faith they will not fall into any of those traps.

The problem is that this is entirely subjective. One person might think it’s fine if in a mission you have to aid a female superhero who is powerful, independent, and brave, but still needs assistance taking on a particular villain, because it’s liberating to fight beside a strong female protagonist. Others might see any portrayal of a female needing help as a “damsel in distress” and a negative misogynistic stereotype. Yet another might be offended by any attempt to label someone by gender as an obsolete patriarchal attempt to superficially define someone. How do you please everyone?

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Gender locked costumes or not, the first best step MWM can take is to not objectify women, not re-enforce archaic gender roles and not rely on outdated stereotypes for their portrayal of women. I have faith they will not fall into any of those traps.

The problem is that this is entirely subjective. One person might think it’s fine if in a mission you have to aid a female superhero who is powerful, independent, and brave, but still needs assistance taking on a particular villain, because it’s liberating to fight beside a strong female protagonist. Others might see any portrayal of a female needing help as a “damsel in distress” and a negative misogynistic stereotype. Yet another might be offended by any attempt to label someone by gender as an obsolete patriarchal attempt to superficially define someone. How do you please everyone?

Answer:
You cannot. You won't be able to and will never be. You can try and please as many as possible, but it won't work.

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Gender locked costumes or not, the first best step MWM can take is to not objectify women, not re-enforce archaic gender roles and not rely on outdated stereotypes for their portrayal of women. I have faith they will not fall into any of those traps.

The problem is that this is entirely subjective. One person might think it’s fine if in a mission you have to aid a female superhero who is powerful, independent, and brave, but still needs assistance taking on a particular villain, because it’s liberating to fight beside a strong female protagonist. Others might see any portrayal of a female needing help as a “damsel in distress” and a negative misogynistic stereotype. Yet another might be offended by any attempt to label someone by gender as an obsolete patriarchal attempt to superficially define someone. How do you please everyone?

None of these are subjective.
Objectification deal with dehumanization. It's about treating women as an object.
In video games, objectification of women is done by making the women a prize to be obtained.

Archaic gender roles deal with women being subservient to men but it can also be a part of how a woman is represented in the story. This is not simply a woman having less authority than their male counterparts but that they accept this position as the natural order of the world.
Games that fall prey to this error do so through the use of interactions between characters. This includes the disparity between describing the male protagonist as wise, heroic or cunning while describing the female protagonist as simply beautiful.

The reliance of outdated stereotypes is when the story only depicts women in one of the three classical feminine archetypes, nurturer, seductress or shrew. This doesn't mean these traits are to be avoided, just that they cannot be the only traits presented.
This should be obvious and I'm sure you can come up with a multitude of examples.

I can explain these further if you want but I don't think this is the place to do so.

As for your example, I think the point you are trying to make is that you can't please everyone because people will always find something to complain about.
You are correct, but you are asking the wrong question.

Instead of asking 'How do we please everyone?', ask 'How can we make progress towards gender equality?'.

Again, I can explain this further but I don't think this is the place to do so.
I've said this previously in other threads, I don't think this game is one that should make a stand for social progress. This game does not need to be a political statement, all it should concern itself with is not taking steps backwards. This means they do all they can not to include those elements I detailed above (and if they accidentally do then to correct it).

Does this help you understand my position better?

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Kuraikari wrote:
Kuraikari wrote:
Atama wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Gender locked costumes or not, the first best step MWM can take is to not objectify women, not re-enforce archaic gender roles and not rely on outdated stereotypes for their portrayal of women. I have faith they will not fall into any of those traps.

The problem is that this is entirely subjective. One person might think it’s fine if in a mission you have to aid a female superhero who is powerful, independent, and brave, but still needs assistance taking on a particular villain, because it’s liberating to fight beside a strong female protagonist. Others might see any portrayal of a female needing help as a “damsel in distress” and a negative misogynistic stereotype. Yet another might be offended by any attempt to label someone by gender as an obsolete patriarchal attempt to superficially define someone. How do you please everyone?

Answer:
You cannot. You won't be able to and will never be. You can try and please as many as possible, but it won't work.

That was basically my point. I’m hoping (and I expect) MWM can make a world and characters that any reasonable person might be comfortable and happy to interact with. But it’s never going to be enough for everyone. Not that they shouldn’t try; they should and I know they will.

To loop back to the original subject, I think making all costume pieces equally available to all characters shows that they’re open and inclusive, and are unlikely to have a “women in refrigerators” culture.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Atama wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Gender locked costumes or not, the first best step MWM can take is to not objectify women, not re-enforce archaic gender roles and not rely on outdated stereotypes for their portrayal of women. I have faith they will not fall into any of those traps.

The problem is that this is entirely subjective.
[...]

None of these are subjective.
[...]

I'm quite sure MWM will do their best to make their stories and lore be as "gender friendly" as possible and avoid any obvious hints of "objectification" or "traditional stereotypes" that some (many?) people now consider archaic/harmful.

But like Project_Hero you're now tossing out Strawmen here that have practically nothing to do with the specific thread topic at hand. We're talking about the legitimacy of "skimpy /questionable outfits" being worn by player characters and you're attempting to obfuscate by talking about globalized gender/feminist issues. Way to spin the issue here...

Let's stay focused shall we? It's not up to MWM to solve the entire world's gender inequality issues. Let's let MWM handle their bit of it (with their stories/lore) and let players have as much costuming freedom as possible. It's not really up to MWM to MAKE us do anything beyond that one way or the other.

Brainbot wrote:

As for your example, I think the point you are trying to make is that you can't please everyone because people will always find something to complain about.
You are correct, but you are asking the wrong question.

Instead of asking 'How do we please everyone?', ask 'How can we make progress towards gender equality?'.

What is "gender equality" to you? That term sadly SUBJECTIVELY means different things to different people. I'm quite sure what you consider adequate/significant gender equality either goes too far or doesn't go far enough relative to other people's definition of that. That's the key problem with your Strawman here and frankly it doesn't serve anyone any good purpose to be drawn into the larger debate which unfortunately has no OBJECTIVE answers at this point.

Brainbot wrote:

Again, I can explain this further but I don't think this is the place to do so.

Again, we don't need any more subjective philosophical handwaving here, thanks. Let's stick to concrete improvements that can actually be accomplished in a game like CoT.

Brainbot wrote:

I've said this previously in other threads, I don't think this game is one that should make a stand for social progress. This game does not need to be a political statement, all it should concern itself with is not taking steps backwards. This means they do all they can not to include those elements I detailed above (and if they accidentally do then to correct it).

Does this help you understand my position better?

Understand your position? This last bit runs COMPLETELY CONTRARY to everything else you've been saying here. You say MWM should do all this great progressive SJWering and then end up by saying "I don't think this game is one that should make a stand for social progress"... WTF! Pick a side here: Either advocate for MWM to be at the vanguard of making the "right" choices vis-à-vis gender issues or stop bothering us all about it.

After all of this I'm still left with the unshakable belief that as far as the TOPIC OF THE THREAD goes the best move MWM can make here is to maintain their promise to avoid gender locking any costume items. Would that be the complete solution to all the gender inequality that exists in the entire world? Of course not. But it does make a strong statement that MWM will be leaving the "debate" squarely in the players' hands by keeping the playing field as level as reasonably possible.

Atama wrote:

To loop back to the original subject, I think making all costume pieces equally available to all characters shows that they’re open and inclusive, and are unlikely to have a “women in refrigerators” culture.

This.

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Brainbot][quote=Hablaguy28
Brainbot wrote:

The 'political stuff' is a part of the topic and Hero is hardly the only one bringing it up. Singling out Hero is disingenuous. Waiting almost 200 posts in a thread to jump in and essentially tell someone to shut up and go away doesn't exactly lend much to your credibility.
If you are unhappy with the current discussion you can present your own take on the subject, start your own thread or ignore us altogether. Maybe it would be best to go back to quietly reading until you have something meaningful to contribute.

Excuse me? Everyone here has enough of this bullcrap argument and nonsensical topic, I am pretty sure everyone here says the same they are not in mood for such bullcrap SJW argument here, and who I said I told the person to shut up when I ask gently to take this argument discussion somewhere else to make a topic about the political set disscusion, I think you need to quietly stop throwing hissy-fit here, because people here has enough of this random non-sense argument.

"Science is the gift of humanity that we all should treasure."

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I don't think too much of

I don't think too much of politics is a good thing, at least here in this thread. We should definitely get back to the original topic of this thread and stop getting hung up on unrelated discussions, especially as this isn't a forum for political discussions.
A bit is okay, as long as it's in relation to the game's lore or somewhat comic-y things.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Stuff that would take too long to correct

I'm not even gonna bother. You're spoiling for a fight and willing to deliberately misinterpret what I said to get one.

Have a nice day.

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Hablaguy28 wrote:
Hablaguy28 wrote:

Excuse me? Everyone here has enough of this bullcrap argument and nonsensical topic, I am pretty sure everyone here says the same they are not in mood for such bullcrap SJW argument here, and who I said I told the person to shut up when I ask gently to take this argument discussion somewhere else to make a topic about the political set disscusion, I think you need to quietly stop throwing hissy-fit here, because people here has enough of this random non-sense argument.

Still have nothing to add to the discussion? Not even something that isn't 'bullcrap SJW'?
I wonder, if you are not going to discuss anything at all then what does it matter what we discuss?

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Hablaguy28 wrote:

Excuse me? Everyone here has enough of this bullcrap argument and nonsensical topic, I am pretty sure everyone here says the same they are not in mood for such bullcrap SJW argument here, and who I said I told the person to shut up when I ask gently to take this argument discussion somewhere else to make a topic about the political set disscusion, I think you need to quietly stop throwing hissy-fit here, because people here has enough of this random non-sense argument.

Still have nothing to add to the discussion? Not even something that isn't 'bullcrap SJW'?
I wonder, if you are not going to discuss anything at all then what does it matter what we discuss?

Oh I have things to add to this, you are just arrogantly selfish who thinks that everything you mention is right and thus must be respected, your point of view and what you do is what people sees you as SJW, it matters because everyone here is really tired of your bullshit by being rude to everyone for no reason but starts an non-sense drama.

"Science is the gift of humanity that we all should treasure."

Brainbot
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Hablaguy28 wrote:
Hablaguy28 wrote:

Oh I have things to add to this,

By all means, add something.

Kuraikari
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Can we get civil again? It's

Can we get civil again? It's starting to get annoying and boring. The whole time the same childish back and forth.

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Atama
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Joined: 10/09/2013 - 22:32
Kuraikari wrote:
Kuraikari wrote:

Can we get civil again? It's starting to get annoying and boring. The whole time the same childish back and forth.

No! You’re annoying and boring!

(Just kidding, I couldn’t help it.) :D

Kuraikari
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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
Kuraikari wrote:

Can we get civil again? It's starting to get annoying and boring. The whole time the same childish back and forth.

No! You’re annoying and boring!

(Just kidding, I couldn’t help it.) :D

????

Tech

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Cobalt Azurean
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Kuraikari wrote:
Kuraikari wrote:
Atama wrote:
Kuraikari wrote:

Can we get civil again? It's starting to get annoying and boring. The whole time the same childish back and forth.

No! You’re annoying and boring!

(Just kidding, I couldn’t help it.) :D

????

ಠ_ಠ

Fireheart
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I think we are civil,

I think we are civil, relatively, on average.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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