Announcements

All Kickstarter Backers: Please go to your Kickstarter account and update your emails.
We're trying to give you as much time as possible for the staged rollout of pre-Alpha.
Make sure you can log in, and make sure your email address is up to date.
Please make sure *@missingworldsmedia.com is set to Allowed or Not Junk in your email settings.

Verticality in the Environment?

19 posts / 0 new
Last post
CoriSparks
CoriSparks's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 4 weeks ago
Joined: 11/26/2015 - 12:46
Verticality in the Environment?

One of the things I liked about City of Heroes' maps was the fact that so many of them were more than just flat planes. There were lots of vertical landscapes, tiers of ground to walk on like the platform Atlas Park's city hall was built on, the various underpasses and highways that made the city look a lot more dynamic and gave you a lot of reasons to actually jump.

I've noticed a lot of MMORPGs have a problem when it comes to this. Most games' landscapes these days are primarily flat planes. We're given the ability to jump, but no good reason to actually use it. I know that City of Titans is still in its early development stages, but from the maps they've released, things look to be rather flat. I'm hoping that this is only because of said early stages, but if not, I would simply like to bring this to the attention of the developers.

The office map that was released recently, while impressive, lacked the verticality that City of Heroes' maps had, and as a result didn't think they would be as interesting to play in. City of Heroes' offices had lots of stairways and platforms in several rooms, some even to ridiculous, mildly MC-Escher-like extremes. There's a big difference in fighting enemies in an office built with layers and levels like that, as opposed to one that is mostly a series of hallways connecting rooms together on a mostly flat ground. I understand that flatter office maps are more realistic, but when it comes to things like superhero games, realism isn't always the most entertaining thing. Champions Online's mission maps took the more 'realistic' approach, where almost everything was all on the same plane, even the same floor, and look at how well that one turned out.

Here's a link to some examples of how CoH got verticality right. I hope the devs haven't been ignoring this easily overlooked, but nevertheless crucial detail.

Anyone else got any thoughts on this subject?

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 57 min ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
I hope they add enemies or

I hope they add enemies or some such in the skies.

In CoX I had very few opportunities to engage in aerial combat which sucks cause it's super cool! I took the power Aerial Superiority once or twice and barely ever had a chance to use it to knock enemies out of the sky.

So more flying enemies please!

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Fils Du Nord
Fils Du Nord's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 3 hours ago
Joined: 08/30/2016 - 13:03
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I hope they add enemies or some such in the skies.

In CoX I had very few opportunities to engage in aerial combat which sucks cause it's super cool! I took the power Aerial Superiority once or twice and barely ever had a chance to use it to knock enemies out of the sky.

So more flying enemies please!

+1

Codename : Doctor Plague
Archetype : Ranger - Hunter
Primary : Atrophic Blast (Diseases)
Secondary : Illusion (Miasmas)
Tertiary : Undecided
Mastery : Eliminator
Movement : Teleportation, Flight

Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 56 min ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
I agree with the OP 100%.

I agree with the OP 100%. This is yet another good example of how realistic interiors are not as much fun to play in as this sort of fanciful stuff.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Dark Cleric
Dark Cleric's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 18 min ago
Joined: 05/14/2018 - 12:26
This is a very valid worry

This is a very valid worry/point/question. I've never really thought about this specifically but now that you bring it up I agree with it. Though, i'm not as worried about it in the open world.

Years ago they explained how they used (I'm going to butcher this) Google, I believe, for their terrain, using the actual, real terrain of the new england area (NE, right?) that was taken using advanced equipment and then fixing the holes.
The point being they didnt upload a flat plane as their base world 'ground'; they were able (again, I think?) to capture a natural environment and overlay it as their world map.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

Doctor Tyche
Doctor Tyche's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 14 hours ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 11:29
The Office map randomizer

The Office map randomizer tool doesn't like it when things are outside of one floor for now, which is why the office was only one floor. We've shown maps before with multiple stories, including the tutorial Bank map you can see me running around in here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/162768297

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Beeker
Beeker's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 3 days ago
Joined: 04/06/2015 - 17:30
The caves in CoT (Circle of

The caves in CoT (Circle of Thorns) missions come to mind here. Info on these kind of irregularly shaped instances would be nice to see.

DariusWolfe
Offline
Last seen: 34 min 15 sec ago
Joined: 09/19/2018 - 06:22
I'm all for verticality, so

I'm all for verticality, so long as melee heroes have a way to bait ranged flyers into close-combat. CoH was pretty good about it, so I'm not overly worried about CoT's implementation. I'm definitely leery about multi-level cave systems, because the dim light and low contrast in the old Circle of Thorns caves made them maddening even with only a few branches. So long as lighting and contrast are good enough that it's not super easy to get disoriented in the caves, I'm on board.

~ DariusWolfe
Errant, TNT, Vibrant and Fluxion on Liberty

Seschat
Seschat's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 3 min ago
Joined: 11/18/2018 - 09:08
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I hope they add enemies or some such in the skies.

In CoX I had very few opportunities to engage in aerial combat which sucks cause it's super cool! I took the power Aerial Superiority once or twice and barely ever had a chance to use it to knock enemies out of the sky.

So more flying enemies please!

You mean like the Air/Sky Pirate faction? :D

Native of Triumph - Victory - Protector - Gladden - Dwarrowdelf - Tribble
Broad spectrum geek and Shadowy Advisor
Yes, my art gallery is almost entirely screen captures. Tough.

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 57 min ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Seschat wrote:
Seschat wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I hope they add enemies or some such in the skies.

In CoX I had very few opportunities to engage in aerial combat which sucks cause it's super cool! I took the power Aerial Superiority once or twice and barely ever had a chance to use it to knock enemies out of the sky.

So more flying enemies please!

You mean like the Air/Sky Pirate faction? :D

CoH had the Sky Raiders and the Gold Brickers both used jetpacks and both tended to stay close to the ground for the most part.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Doctor Tyche
Doctor Tyche's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 14 hours ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 11:29
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Seschat wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I hope they add enemies or some such in the skies.

In CoX I had very few opportunities to engage in aerial combat which sucks cause it's super cool! I took the power Aerial Superiority once or twice and barely ever had a chance to use it to knock enemies out of the sky.

So more flying enemies please!

You mean like the Air/Sky Pirate faction? :D

CoH had the Sky Raiders and the Gold Brickers both used jetpacks and both tended to stay close to the ground for the most part.

https://cityoftitans.com/content/aether-pirates

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Darth Fez
Darth Fez's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/20/2013 - 07:53
CoriSparks wrote:
CoriSparks wrote:

We're given the ability to jump, but no good reason to actually use it.

This can actually be a peeve of mine, and CoH was by no means exempt from it. Sometimes there is a requirement to jump because the character can't kick a cardboard box out of the way, or encounters a (apparently ornery) curb. Or, of course, the eternal fan favorite: stairs. I certainly don't know the challenges that go into these things, but I certainly don't want to use a jump function to move from the street to the sidewalk. Or to walk up stairs. I expect my character to be able to lift his feet a little more than a few centimeters, so unless Campi Flegrei has gotten uppity I wouldn't anticipate sidewalks or stairs to be jump-worthy hurdles.

That said, I'm definitely in favor of not everything being on the "ground floor".

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

Support trap clowns for CoT!

desviper
desviper's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 hours 54 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/10/2014 - 00:55
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

CoH had the Sky Raiders and the Gold Brickers both used jetpacks and both tended to stay close to the ground for the most part.

https://cityoftitans.com/content/aether-pirates

LOL :p I never realized...

The Necrobians - Mage villain group

The Redeemers - Hero group focused on rehab

Avatar by MikeNovember

Kuraikari
Kuraikari's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 hours 32 min ago
Developer
Joined: 11/28/2018 - 12:59
Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:
CoriSparks wrote:

We're given the ability to jump, but no good reason to actually use it.

This can actually be a peeve of mine, and CoH was by no means exempt from it. Sometimes there is a requirement to jump because the character can't kick a cardboard box out of the way, or encounters a (apparently ornery) curb. Or, of course, the eternal fan favorite: stairs. I certainly don't know the challenges that go into these things, but I certainly don't want to use a jump function to move from the street to the sidewalk. Or to walk up stairs. I expect my character to be able to lift his feet a little more than a few centimeters, so unless Campi Flegrei has gotten uppity I wouldn't anticipate sidewalks or stairs to be jump-worthy hurdles.

That said, I'm definitely in favor of not everything being on the "ground floor".

UE4 has the good thing of being able to walk over smaller hurdles.If the difference in height between steps is low enough, the character can use them without jumping. I don't know it is with imported meshes, but the ones from UE4 itself are working as intended.

45 52 52 4F 52 3A 20 34 30 34 0D 0A 48 65 72 6F 20 6E 6F 74 20 66 6F 75 6E 64 21

Planet10
Planet10's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 14 min ago
Joined: 03/23/2016 - 17:21
CoriSparks wrote:
CoriSparks wrote:

One of the things I liked about City of Heroes' maps was the fact that so many of them were more than just flat planes. There were lots of vertical landscapes, tiers of ground to walk on like the platform Atlas Park's city hall was built on, the various underpasses and highways that made the city look a lot more dynamic and gave you a lot of reasons to actually jump.

Anyone else got any thoughts on this subject?

Yeah, the recent map demos have been focused on procedurally generated & instanced content which dev have explained the flatness (above). There have been announcements about the game world topography and the layout of the neighborhoods have referenced highways. So there will be things to jump on/over. And some of the example videos that MWM has created have shown buildings that have jumpable features. Plus it looks like the latest update on Landmarks & Mogul architectures should have features that will be interesting to navigate. I would be interested to see how a wall climber character will tackle a bunch of these buildings.

It looks like the city proper will be relatively "flat", reflecting how humans typically build. I believe the city landscapes will be varied enough that jumpers/fliers/climbers won't get bored. It should be something that MWM takes into account.

For reference:
Maps – The Resolution -> World map topography (the url for the update has "-–-" in it and the url tag doesn't like it, so just do a forum search for "Maps – The Resolution" I guess :/ )
Moving On Up - Maps -> How the game map incorporates the topography
Where We Stand - The Builder -> The architecture of the buildings have terraces, fire escapes and all sorts of things to jump onto
Worldbuilding Stage 1 - North / South -> Descriptions of each neighborhood
There are also the Titan City Neighborhood pages accessible at the top of the page (like Alexandria)

"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit

blacke4dawn
blacke4dawn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 21 min ago
Joined: 03/28/2015 - 03:02
Kuraikari wrote:
Kuraikari wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:
CoriSparks wrote:

We're given the ability to jump, but no good reason to actually use it.

This can actually be a peeve of mine, and CoH was by no means exempt from it. Sometimes there is a requirement to jump because the character can't kick a cardboard box out of the way, or encounters a (apparently ornery) curb. Or, of course, the eternal fan favorite: stairs. I certainly don't know the challenges that go into these things, but I certainly don't want to use a jump function to move from the street to the sidewalk. Or to walk up stairs. I expect my character to be able to lift his feet a little more than a few centimeters, so unless Campi Flegrei has gotten uppity I wouldn't anticipate sidewalks or stairs to be jump-worthy hurdles.

That said, I'm definitely in favor of not everything being on the "ground floor".

UE4 has the good thing of being able to walk over smaller hurdles.If the difference in height between steps is low enough, the character can use them without jumping. I don't know it is with imported meshes, but the ones from UE4 itself are working as intended.

I'm sure MWM has mentioned that here in relation to similar concerns.

My experience is not so much stairs (they are almost always implemented as an angled "flat" plane) themselves but rather the top of an angled plane (stairs, ramp, and similar) where they connect to a horizontal plane. Way too often that is where characters get stuck, so being able to tell the engine that if height difference is X or below then just "raise" them to the new plane and continue moving is a really really welcome feature.

Seschat
Seschat's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 3 min ago
Joined: 11/18/2018 - 09:08
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

https://cityoftitans.com/content/aether-pirates

I was in a rush at work, I knew I was getting the name wrong, my apologies.

Native of Triumph - Victory - Protector - Gladden - Dwarrowdelf - Tribble
Broad spectrum geek and Shadowy Advisor
Yes, my art gallery is almost entirely screen captures. Tough.

Doctor Tyche
Doctor Tyche's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 14 hours ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 11:29
Seschat wrote:
Seschat wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

https://cityoftitans.com/content/aether-pirates

I was in a rush at work, I knew I was getting the name wrong, my apologies.

No worries. I just figured you guys might appreciate the link is all.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Halae
Halae's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 9 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/17/2014 - 09:37
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Seschat wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

https://cityoftitans.com/content/aether-pirates

I was in a rush at work, I knew I was getting the name wrong, my apologies.

No worries. I just figured you guys might appreciate the link is all.

I certainly did!

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".