I think I've brainstormed a cool way to introduce vehicle play in Titan City.
Vehicles will be on the street.. and my character will want to drive them. So instead of having a dedicated motorcycle that "appears" .. like most mounts.. I'd be super cool with being able to go hop on one.
The vechicle would be an interactable environment piece. Once on it the vehicle has its own HP. Hits taken on vehicle are shared between the vehicle and the driver/pilot/rider. Once the Vehicle HP is depleted the character is ejected. (Motorcycles have tiny HP and dont share much HP.. Minivans have alot of HP and higher percentage of the HP share)
No combat needed in vehicles they are just for getting around. Sure you can ram one into an enemy but it'll cost HP.
Pretty minimal programming for the functionality (just movement and maybe different controls/physics if you feel like getting in depth).
If Titan City is anything like Boston then I can see some really angry cabbies ready to brawl if you cut them off! :)
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Trolling. So much trolling.
I can imagine that the road would eventuallh be pretty much full of heroes on vehicles going one way or another, ramming into each other.
But I'm willing to listen, if it's done right.
Hlwhat will happen to the vehicle when the player os ejected? There's gotta be some form of death animation.
Can players drive vehicles off of the road, or in the wrong lane?
And as mentioned by the Devs. A realistic NPC trafic system would make a land vehicle tough. I even saw the cars in CO end up in a traffic jam from time to time, add player land vehicles... grid lock nightmare.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
The vehicle would have less HP than players (meaning you don't WANT to use them in combat much) so when ejected your player "jumps" out (if there are strafe jumps ) and the vehicle is a heap of metal.
Motorcycles skid.
Cars are a tuck and roll/ Thelma and Louise style
Helicopters are a freefall motion
I'd add that the vehicles are for open world in my eyes unless they are specifically put into a map (any speed/timed missions). They are meant to be fun accessories (like picking up a lamp post etc) but definitely not the main attraction.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
...But wait, what about the civilian that was driving it before you came along? He was going somewhere, and now him and his car are destroyed? Hey.... Well, I guess if you are a villain that works
If a villain were to steal a car from someone in CoT like that, why, he or she could be prosecuted for Grand Theft Auto.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Gotta say, I don't like the whole vehicle mechanic in Champions. People crowding around quest-givers in their speeder-bikes and what not. Part of me loves the idea of vehicles as travel powers, but it's just too messy in the open world. Ground-based vehicles, particularly with the amount of "civilian" traffic you'd expect in a major city would be doubly so. It's one thing for Batman to have the only Batmobile in Gotham, but a city full of super-vehicles?
However, what about the opposite? Instead of having them in the open world, what about using them as special transport in instanced missions? Like piloting a personal mini-sub to get to the villains underwater lair. Or flying a small star-fighter against an alien mothership. I know, they wouldn't be personalized or anything, but could still be fun.
Another thing I detest about CO's inclusion of vehicles and the vehicle combat scenarios that go with it - I have no interest in the vehicle missions, and as an F2P slob, the vehicles are too expensive, anyway. Yet, it feels like every 4th or 5th mission reward are vehicle upgrades. Useless. And they sell for crap, too.
Y'know, there may be a market out there for a PVP MMO that's just about customizing and weaponizing cars, trucks, motorcycles, etc. Think EveOnline set on a continent with diferent types of terrain and a few city "hubs". Hmmm.....
Oh. Hate to be the counter-point guy WarBird, but I always wanted vehicles in City of Heroes. I haven't played Champions, so I've never seen what you described there. Maybe the contacts could have a reluctance to talk to players if they're in their vehicles. Maybe vehicles could disappear when you disembark. Or maybe players can receive a small bonus of some kind if they park their vehicle sensibly.
But yea! A whole vehicle system, meaning customizable vehicles, multiple types to choose from, reward/penalty scheme to minimize immersion violations
No offense taken, Pez. Like I said, part of me loves the idea. In fact there are a few character concepts I have that would really benefit from a custom vehicle.
You bring up an interesting point, though. I feel that for the vehicle thing to be worthwhile, that is the ability to create a truly unique vehicle for your character, you'd really have to have tons of options. I'm not interested in having the same purple dragon-thingy as 12 other people in WoW. Or the #3 vehicle choice in CO with a different paint job. Lot of time spent to create and manage the whole she-bang.
That being said, if our Friendly Neighborhood Devs can iron out all the problems I've seen with it in CO and WoW, then more to power to them. And us!
In depth? Having interactable vehicles like this seems like a cool idea but if they really were "pretty minimal programming for the functionality" then CoH would have had this capability 10+ years ago. You have to ask yourself why didn't they? Needless to say it would be a very significant and non-trivial feature to add to the game. Frankly it'd be far easier for them to implement aeronautical-based flight movement than anything like this. And even if the Devs could provide vehicles like this it would likely devolve into players playing "bumper cars" with each other all day long and most city areas looking like some kind of Death Race / Mad Max disaster. Sometimes realism on this scale just isn't worth it.
So even though it's not strictly "realistic" it would be far, far simpler for vehicles to be implemented as non-interactive graphics that pop out of nowhere (the same way most MMOs just have horses appear out of thin air). This solves practically all the problems with cars "having HPs" or having to interact with other objects in the environment. And for what it's worth these vehicles could have different skins/upgrades for those who'd want that (like robopez mentioned). Let's have the CoT Devs take the baby steps of giving us these types of mounts first before we worry about them jumping all the way up to fully interactable vehicles.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
No. No. No. No. No. On so many levels No. We are Superheroes and therefore we have some form of super travel. I cannot even begin to imagine the kind of programming nightmares this would be on top of all the stupid insanity caused by players this would bring about. For the love of all that is decent, please no.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Amerikatt can fly, but her teenage sidekick has no superpowers, so she is relegated to running through the streets or bounding from rooftop to rooftop.
I would love to have a Katt-Mobile (aka Kitty-Karr), Kitty-Kopter, Katt-A-Maran, and Katt-Cycle, but I've seen the traffic snarls around quest givers in Champions and in the malls in The Old Republic. I believe this would also be a pathing nightmare for the Devs and is not exactly the kind of thing which could/should be a priority for Launch. Later, maybe. Or not.
[center][color=purple][size=16][b][I][url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78N2SP6JFaI]Just a cat from another star![/url][/I][/b][/size][/color][/center]
Instead of fully interactable "vehicles" I think we can use more versions of "alternate travel powers" that give the appearance of being vehicle-based. A good example of this comes straight from CoH: [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Rocket_Board]The Rocket Board[/url].
If the CoT Devs could expand on this idea then I think it would go far to satisfy most people. For example there could be a version of Super Speed implemented with "motorcycle" graphics so it looks like you're riding a motorcycle. Or a version of Sprint that looked like you're riding a horse. Then to further expand on this they might be able to allow us to customize these powers so that our "vehicles" could be custom colored or shaped and so on.
Again I suspect something like this would be far, far easier to do than fully independent vehicles and would likely eliminate many of the social problems that would arise in the game environment because of them.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The Cryptic Engine is a large reason why.
Moving vehicles will likely already exist in the game, there is already the functionality in the Unreal engine to pilot/take control of a environment object. So why not just give the same animation/functionality to the players as an interactable. I'd say only for parked vehicles.. not the ones already being used in traffic but I'm open to whatever.
I gave one sample of rules for the vehicles but it's not based on anything. We don't know how HP will even work in CoT. I just wanted to give an example that shows that vehicles are not used IN combat. Maybe to open a fight, maybe to try and flee a fight.. but not during a fight.
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Static, my character wears high heels and is 5'2" .. I'd much rather her commandeer a vehicle to get from place to place than HAVE to run for miles.
Sure some concepts fly, have superspeed, swing through the air, or ride on hovercraft or even teleport.. but none of these really fit my concept. So instead of coming up with a vehicle travel power (which would be lame) I've opted for something simpler that can be used to travel but is not the same as a travel power. I DON'T want to wait for the subway.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Obviously software technology has advanced to the point that fully interactable vehicles would be easier to implement in a game like this than in the past. But I'd argue that even with UE4 they'd take more time and effort to develop than the traditional travel powers with vehicle "skins" applied. As I mentioned even CoH was moving ahead with several versions of those.
And for what it's worth you still haven't really addressed some of the "social" consequences of having interactable vehicles. As mentioned earlier the reality of it in-game would probably be a bit naightmareish.
I would simply argue that "vehicle travel powers" would not be lame if done as mentioned above and what you've suggested (even accounting for UE4) would not be the "simpler" alternative.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think Vehicles ONLY as a travel power would greatly enhance concept realization. Though, like weather, this is in the "bells and whistles" catagory, many MAJOR Superheroes just don't have travel powers, they use vehicles (Cyclops, The Thing, Captain America), and so vehicles expand the all-important concept realization--YOUR hero--that made CoH so awesome.
Not absolutely necessary, especially at first, but a HUGE enhancement to the spirit of CoH--fully realizing YOUR Hero concept.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Could you list some of the possible grievances? Maybe there are solutions we're not thinking of yet
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Well you could start by reading some of the posts earlier in this thread that have already mentioned the various problems.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yes fully environamentally interactive vehicles would definitely be a "bells and whistles" feature, especially considering all of the potential problems that would have to be solved to make them feasible from a game interactivity point of view.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Did somebody say "NIGHTMARE!"?
Plenty of reasons to have it, plenty of reasons not to. The potential for griefing is a big one, and all the reason I dreaded when CO announced them. I say if they'll be implemented in some way, at least don't give them weapons. Please. No telling how many times I've been angered by vehicles in CO being customized to be unkillable and taking on every damn world event in a few seconds/minutes while leaving us who play traditionally in the dust.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
I had many characters that wore Thigh High Boots, High Heels, Stilettos, or were just plain bare footed. Didn't stop me from taking Super Jump or Super Speed. While I understand your dilemma, it is your dilemma. Many people have no issues doing this. Again, the consequences far outweigh the benefits of this. I like Lothic's idea of having customizable skinned travel powers to make it look like you have a vehicle, but I do not support being able to use vehicles in the game.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
A traffic jam happens? Drive on the shoulder, the sidewalk or just get out of the car and run! :p
Yes. Players would be able to drive on any terrain.
Pathing is Unreal is actually quite intuituve if designed that way. That being said I'd much rather see gridlock that is caused by players than cause by crappy developers. Who knows maybe there's a perk for clearing huge accidents that cause traffic jams. In any case I don't see this as any more problematic than when players stand in front of cars in CO.
Social problems.. you have not elaborated on what they are.
You haven't actually named any social consequence that I can see here.
I too do not them to become a form of Twisted Metal Online. I do not see the griefing as others describe it yet.. could you please elaborate on what you're afraid to see?
It's already been mentioned that quest giving kiosks would be a larger area of space rather than one singular point with a 2m radius. Also there's no reason people can't just jump on your car to get the quest or fly in the area of quest giving.
There would be NO inclusion of vehicle combat. Just a way to get around for slower characters like mine who dont travel long distances. If there is a mission that requires me to get to the other side of town within 2 minutes I don't want my character to be forced to run the whole way there.. or take the subway.
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- What I am talking about here is a NON-Customizable Environment vehicles that are NOT travel powers. The closest thing I can point to is Grand Theft Auto (maybe you can only get into a parked vehicle in my scenario for ease of programming.. unknown)
- There would be no drive-able convertible or motorcycle of which you see your character drive and see their avatar on it in my scenario (as this is extra programming).
- Players WOULD enjoy crashing vehicles into each other but this follows the same rules as PvP does in open world
- This system is nothing like Champions Online's butchering of the entire genre. Their version is based off of Star Trek Online's ships.
- I'm imagining that the only time there is "collision" in a way that causes damage is when you jump out of a moving vehicle.. not while you're still in the vehicle. This is basically the same as the vehicle being "thrown" by a superstrong/telekinetic character.
- We don't even know how wide the roads of Titan City are, but if/when players make a fun metagame from one of your features this is usually a good thing, not a bad thing. IF it is used somehow for griefing, then we should consider the scenario and see if we can't prevent that from happening.
I too do not want to play vehicles online. This is why the vehicle would be destroyed quickly in combat (without causing the death of the player/driver/passengers). If you get in combat your vehicle is the last place you want to be.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I think it's funny that you didn't acknowledge the problems I pointed out with your suggestions here (my use of the word "social" in this context is an obvious reference to how the playerbase would react to vehicles that could interact with the environment) yet you responded to at least two other people pointing out similar problems. I hope you didn't get hung up on my use of a relevant term as a means to avoid dealing with the shortcomings with this.
If you really can't see that what you're proposing here would open up a much larger can-o-worms of unintended consequences (vis-a-vis various forms of griefing) than the more modest proposal of getting more of what CoH was starting to give us already (i.e. The Rocket Board) then I think we'll just have to once again agree to disagree. I frankly don't want a Grand Theft Auto styled mini-game out of this.
P.S. If your only real objection to vehicle based travel powers is that you (subjectively) think they are "lame" and would rather our Devs implement an indisputably more complex alternative that's limited ONLY to cars on roads instead of ANY kind of vehicle then I'll just borrow your argument (from another thread) of "this won't be enjoyable for enough of the playerbase" to conclude this would not worthwhile for the Devs to do.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
They've already announced on the Kickstarter that they intend to have surfable items as travel powers (manhole covers, hoverboards, etc). These are not in the scope of my suggestion.
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The LAST thing I want is for the CoT devs to follow the Vehicle system of Champions Online.
I am advocating for a "GTA minigame" if you see it that way. Just as picking up cars and throwing them loses its novelty, I wager that even driving a station wagon will lose its novelty too. But I prefer it to needing to run everywhere. The amount of programming for this is actually far less than that of creating Mounts (and animations for mounts and the ability to use mounts in combat, etc). Is it more than doing "nothing", yes. As far as priority is concerned I'm okay with vehicles being far down the list.
Also I should mention that, for parity's sake, I do not advocate for any travel powers that CANNOT perform in combat if some CAN be used in combat.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Put me down for Lothic's idea of vehicles only as a type of travel power.
Just curious, Jay: given your objection in another thread to adding a couple features to flight because you said it would be development work that would not benefit everyone, how do you justify requesting this much more involved development (an entirely new subsystem rather than merely adjustments to an existing one) for what would seem to be even fewer players? Given that one of the major features of a superhero game is various forms of super travel, it seems to me a lot of work for the small minority of characters who don't have any travel powers.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Yeh, and I wasn't clear in my statement. By ONLY as a travel power I meant not fully interactive. In other words, "my super speed looks like a motorcycle", or "my flight looks like a hovercar" type thing. Maybe "calling it in" the way the final Gang Mastermind pet came riding in on a motorcycle. But not fully interactive environmental objects.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
If we are getting hover boards, manhole covers, surfboards, rocket boards, ice slicks, etc. to be able to be used for travel powers........then leave it alone. If I want to play Grand Theft Auto, I'll go play Grand Theft Auto. Besides how are these poor pedestrians going to feel when we "commandeer" their car as they are on their way to work? Will the pedestrians get the option to fight back much like Grand Theft Auto? Will Police see us taking the cars then proceed to chase after us? It's just stupid. Use a travel power, or use the train. I'm sure they'll give us mission transporters much like City had as well. Instant teleport to mission. Yay, no having to run in your high heels. (derp)
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
[color=#c95f02][b][size=15][font=Palatino Linotype] I concur with Lothic. Vehicles if added at any point just being an extension of travel powers works for me.
Players get the look and basic function for those that want it and the rest don't have to put up with the
potential griefing and gridlock (there is no way I want to get stuck in traffic in a super hero game).
[/color][/b][/size][/font]
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[IMG]http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr168/Christopher_Robin/Xll_zps220e8da8.jpg[/IMG]
Flyers may still want to drive. Walkers (myself) however have no desire to fly.
I am not putting vehicles as I've described them under the "travel power" category at all. This functionality would be usable for everyone.
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I don't forsee needing any AI reaction to a character entering a vehicle.
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I personally hate "teleporting to missions" as it is less time spent in the open world interacting with other players.
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Not saying vehicles are a must have.. like at all. They are a "nice to have" and I'd prefer them implemented this way instead of the other ways mentioned here in thread.
I am NOT talking about travel powers, I'm talking about a different system. One that requres minimal animations that are not already planned and minimal functionality changes than that which are already planned.
Assuming there are cars driving anywhere in the game, it's not that hard to write Code for players to take control of that already made object in the game.
I considered it a simple and effective addition to the game. If you love or hate the idea, I appreciate the feedback. I however do not see the "everyone would cause mayhem!" argument. You can pick up and carry a whole tank in other games and it's not been a problem. Driving, if implemented, would be a novelty that I think would be fun but in no way takes away from the superhero/villain experience for those who prefer not to use it.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Agreed on the teleporting to missions. If someone wants that ability have them take teleport. Want to speed things up? They can then take a teleport friends to me ability.
Actually, there's a very big difference between the code required for NPC objects to move on a scripted path and the code required for players to interact and steer said objects. A lot more work for what I see as something that very few players will need or use, given most have super travel powers. I'd also debate whether a GTA type element truly fits in a superhero game, but that is really up to MWM to state whether that's part of their vision for this game. All I can say is I hope it's not.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I come from growing up reading classic Superhero comic books, not gaming. I never played a MMO or video games that much till CoH, I've never played GTA once, but I started reading comic books from almost as soon as I could read to--well, I just bought the new trade reprinting of the LSH/Darkseid Great Darkness Saga. And I'm too old to be buying that kind of stuff :P.
I can tell you that while I can't say a Hero NEVER commandeered a vehicle or a Villian NEVER jacked a car in a comic book (I'm quite sure both have happened), it wasn't often enough that I can remember one single instance off the top of my head. And people could say "yeah, but this isn't a comic book and we don't want to limit peoples freedom", but this is a game based on trying to bring Superhero comic books to life.
Or, to be more accurate, this is a game that is based on a game that is based on a pencil and paper Superhero role playing game that is based on trying to bring Superhero comics to life--but you get my point :).
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Given the right animations I can totally see "vehicles-as-reskinned-travel powers" working within certain limitations - I don't think it would be kosher to have vehicles crowding up the space in a mission (if you thought a team full of Masterminds was bad - how about a team of people driving the Tumbler Batmobile or flying the X-Jet thorugh an office building interior mission).
Maybe if they are not selected as travel powers but as an ability you can add to your character (or craft maybe?) that simulate the effects of a travel power for those heroes that, due to concept, do not have a traditional travel power. This could at least cover some of the built-in disadvantages (compared to "real" travel powers) that the devs could impose on "vehicle-powers". As for the heroes themselves, well they could also take Swinging/Grapple or Acrobatics type powers (or slot up the character's base running speed if possible) for running around a mission or in restricted zones.
As for fully interactive GTA-style vehicles (even ones that can engage in combat like CO) - that would be really interesting and cool for some character concepts (guy is just a pilot - no powers, or a robot that can transform into a combat vehicle mode) but I, personally, cannot envision a way to get around the massive potential for griefing and well, even mundane details like getting stuck in traffic. If the devs can come up with a solution to the problems and coding difficulties that such a system would produce, then it could be a great addition. But for now I think it's too much trouble for too little payoff.
We are not disagreeing, but the animations for cars will already exist. Wheels will turn left and right and they will move forward, perhaps even backwards on the street terrain. The only possible needed animation is getting in and out of the vehicle (which i'm willing to do without).
Your definition of "lot" is relative and one I disagree with. It's as simple as transferring the character control over to the vehicle controls wise. Sure there should be some rules for the HP and how it works if people get into combat.. but Unreal Engine already has the capability to transfer characters to intractable objects in real-game time. It's not as easy as the click of a button, but if you're going to write code for how the vehicles work, then why not simply transfer that control to players?
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People keep saying "the potential for griefing" without citing examples. I'm not trying to be rude when I ask for the examples of how this system would be griefed; not because I do not think they exist, but because I believe there are simple rule solutions if we put the question to the table.
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As an action RPer.. my character would "commandeer" a vehicle as she's a government agent. BUT I understand the concern of kicking civilians out of their cars for people who want to use this for their characters who are not. So in my mind what if we could only drive the "parked" (aka not already NPC controlled) cars.. the same ones you can pick up and throw at an enemy.
Or is picking up cars off the table now too?
Crowd Control Enthusiast
As discussed elsewhere, I'm not in favor of Player-driven vehicles. SWTOR demonstrates that players will drive their vehicles up and down stairs, on the sidewalks, through the Mall, into the store, and even in 'church'. I've seen a half dozen speeders, a Tauntaun, and a couple of giant lizards, all having an 'orgy' in a mailbox, on a Space Station.
However, I am certainly in favor of a 'Taxi!' power, in which one steps to the side of the roadway and 'flags down' a taxi, which then whisks you (and your party) off to the next destination. That way, vehicles are under game control and stay on the road, and super-citizens use super-powers to travel locally. And we don't have DCUO, where panicked drivers try to flee from super-fights, crash into each other, drive on the sidewalks and explode.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Agreed Empyrean and yes, don't want the vehicles everywhere they shouldn't be as Fireheart mentioned.
Hmm.. could doorways for "places vehicles shouldn't be" be too thin for vehicles to slip through? (i play SWTOR and haven't seen this behavior, but if it's a danger I would rather prevent it from happening.)
Crowd Control Enthusiast
And then have numerous people crowding a doorway with their cars making it impossible to go through, griefing people? Much like people opening O-portals did in City? Sign me up! I'm seriously beginning to think that you just want SOMETHING to put your stamp on in this game so you can say, "SEE THAT!! I MADE THAT HAPPEN!!!" (past self on back) We've given you reasons why this is not a good idea and you either choose to ignore them, or just find some way to shoot them down because you don't want to hear that kind of noise.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Meh, I've been accused of worse and it makes none of your accusations any more true. I am not "trying to put my stamp" on anything. It's a suggestion in a suggestion forum. Should I not suggest things at your behest? I don't respond well to personal attacks so pump the brakes
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I do not think crowding the doorway is valid enough reason to call for "anti-griefing" measures. Players have the ability to do this without my suggestion as much as with it.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I can imagine that the road would eventually be pretty much full of heroes on vehicles going one way or another, ramming into each other.
I even saw the cars in CO end up in a traffic jam from time to time, add player land vehicles... grid lock nightmare.
...But wait, what about the civilian that was driving it before you came along? He was going somewhere, and now him and his car are destroyed? Hey.... Well, I guess if you are a villain that works
People crowding around quest-givers in their speeder-bikes and what not.
And even if the Devs could provide vehicles like this it would likely devolve into players playing "bumper cars" with each other all day long and most city areas looking like some kind of Death Race / Mad Max disaster. Sometimes realism on this scale just isn't worth it.
Given that one of the major features of a superhero game is various forms of super travel, it seems to me a lot of work for the small minority of characters who don't have any travel powers.
Actually, there's a very big difference between the code required for NPC objects to move on a scripted path and the code required for players to interact and steer said objects. A lot more work for what I see as something that very few players will need or use, given most have super travel powers.
SWTOR demonstrates that players will drive their vehicles up and down stairs, on the sidewalks, through the Mall, into the store, and even in 'church'. I've seen a half dozen speeders, a Tauntaun, and a couple of giant lizards, all having an 'orgy' in a mailbox, on a Space Station.
These are all reasons listed above as to why this isn't a good idea. Again, you choose to ignore them. You see no relevance to how this could affect game play. You do not view this as griefing. Yes players will always find some way to grief another player, but why give them even more options as to how this can be done? Just so that you can have your role play emersion? Because your character doesn't like walking around in high heels? Put on some sensible shoes then! How's that for role play?
For a single player game like Grand Theft Auto this is a great idea. Steal a car, ride around town to your next mission instead of hoofing it, it's all part of a mission, etc. For a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game, no. Hell no. Thousands of people all running around stealing cars and then all trying to go to their missions in them is just insanity. As has been mentioned, all the grid lock, traffic jams, bumper car escapades, blocking missions, etc. It's a nightmare waiting to happen.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
This seems to be a perennial complaint in SWTOR, as well, particularly on the faction fleet, the places players already stack up -- the cargo-hold access, the auction kiosks, the mail terminals, the BBA terminals during the bounty event weeks -- get even harder to see when the various speeders are thrown into the mix, and with the variety of 'vehicles' in various sizes, ranging from STAP-like speeders or float chairs barely bigger than a second character standing next to the rider through speeder bikes, sail barges, and pod racers up to expansive aircars bigger than a Cadillac Escalade, it can be hard to see through all of the hardware, even though there are no actual collisions to keep you from getting to your intended destination.
Not going to lie. If they DO include vehicles, I pray we see these guys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn5JgXbEM5w
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
You've never seen vehicles flying everywhere at the main ships? o.O
Am I correct in understanding that you want car-theft to be normal, JayBezz, when you demand that all player-cars should be parked NPC cars?
These parked cars should be locked, and you cannot start it with the key - breaking Immersion for non-technopath or car-thief characters.
And there is also the issue that you are declaring any personal player vehicle (not rare at all in the Superhero genre) inacceptible.
More troubling, maybe, is that I get an impression along the line of "taking the car and driving it, too" - "I want a travel power, but don't want to take one!"
And I join the list how your system is more simple than a pure animation.
[url=http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus/] Save the endangered Pacific Northwest Tree Octopus from Extinction![/url]
I do not imagine this. It may be a novelty for a while but it certainly won't become as fun or engaging as the superhero combat. That is the essence of what I'm advocating. A complementary system that exists but is not supplemental.
I sincerely hope the devs of City of Titans know how to design a city and their vehicle AI better than what Millennium city had become. This game will be a cityscape. I expect the streets will be wider and maybe even have multiple lanes.. but the AI of Unreal is a lot more intuitive than people give it credit for. Beyond that.. is a traffic jam really that big of an issue? "Oh no I can't be a superhero/villain.. cars have parked!". Cant you just run around it? "But the CARS!" lol
Can I assume you take the same logic to a position not to have vehicles be liftable, throwable vehicles as well?
Beyond that we will have villains. Should they not be supported? Why be dismissive of them?
We do not share the same vision. If you think a small feature will overcast the game then you either don't have trust in the game or are making an irrational argument.
I cannot make much assumption on builds as the devs have not said as such but for build parity EVERY build should be required to have a travel power.
What I suggest is not in any way connected to travel powers. It can be used as a form of travel but is not a supplement for travel powers.
A valid argument. The difference is not as large as you make it claim but it does exist. Is it worth it, well that is what is being debated. I don't think it's a priority, but if they're gonna program moving vehicles anyway with rules of how they interact with the terrain… it becomes a "why not" proposition to me.
That's because it's all apart of the Star Wars universe. Players SHOULD have fun the way they want to as long as it's not against the rules.
I do not ignore them. I'm responding to them.
Griefing happens. Some players are assholes. If the greatest problem is "crowding" then the AoE kiosking is a viable solution, and one already suggested by the devs.
Your argument that the majority of the players would use the vehicles instead of their travel powers seems incongruent with your argument that the majority of the players do not want to use vehicles.
Your use of hyperbole about this hypothetical suggests to me that you simply don't like the idea. Fair enough, but why not just say "I don't like the idea.
I don't mean to dismiss the problems with the idea. The issues you've cite just don't seem caused by my suggestion.
I personally would rather have intractable vehicles and non-interactable vehicles as seen in Millennium City of Champions Online. What I don't want to see is civilians being seen hurt.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
So Jaybezz has spoken, so it must be!!! Obviously you know all about how people play games and how games should be played, and anybody who says or thinks otherwise is just ridiculous. I bow to your knowledge and infinite wisdom and understanding.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Ok guys, cool it off. Its getting a bit heated in here.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
I go out of my way to respond to your post with my arguments and positions of why I advocate for the suggestion I suggested (an brazen concept?). I make no personal insult and specifically ask that you not take things to a personal level.
You neither respond to my argument nor present your argument and specifically make MORE personal attacks after I've specifically asked you not to..
For this reason, and no other, I'm done listening to you and do not respect you.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
oOStaticOo wrote:
I can imagine that the road would eventually be pretty much full of heroes on vehicles going one way or another, ramming into each other.
I do not imagine this. It may be a novelty for a while but it certainly won't become as fun or engaging as the superhero combat. That is the essence of what I'm advocating. A complementary system that exists but is not supplemental.
Just because you don't imagine this doesn't mean it won't happen. You can't just simply dismiss this because it doesn't exist in your imagined reality.
oOStaticOo wrote:
I even saw the cars in CO end up in a traffic jam from time to time, add player land vehicles... grid lock nightmare.
I sincerely hope the devs of City of Titans know how to design a city and their vehicle AI better than what Millennium city had become. This game will be a cityscape. I expect the streets will be wider and maybe even have multiple lanes.. but the AI of Unreal is a lot more intuitive than people give it credit for. Beyond that.. is a traffic jam really that big of an issue? "Oh no I can't be a superhero/villain.. cars have parked!". Cant you just run around it? "But the CARS!" lol
Yes, I or anyone else could run around it, problem would be in lag. Remember the ITF mission running up the hill? Imagine what it would be like with all the cars piled up and more adding to it because of NPC cars continuously running into it. What about chasing after some bad guy and then having to try to find him in the middle of a gigantic car pile up? It would be very annoying to people at the least.
oOStaticOo wrote:
...But wait, what about the civilian that was driving it before you came along? He was going somewhere, and now him and his car are destroyed? Hey.... Well, I guess if you are a villain that works
Can I assume you take the same logic to a position not to have vehicles be liftable, throwable vehicles as well?
Beyond that we will have villains. Should they not be supported? Why be dismissive of them?
I have never said I was in favor or not of having vehicles thrown around. I am not dismissing villains, and for them perhaps having a mission where they steal cars could be implemented.
oOStaticOo wrote:
And even if the Devs could provide vehicles like this it would likely devolve into players playing "bumper cars" with each other all day long and most city areas looking like some kind of Death Race / Mad Max disaster. Sometimes realism on this scale just isn't worth it.
We do not share the same vision. If you think a small feature will overcast the game then you either don't have trust in the game or are making an irrational argument.
This is not my argument, but someone else's that I've put up for you to see that there have been many people who do not feel that this is an important feature to implement in this game.
oOStaticOo wrote:
Given that one of the major features of a superhero game is various forms of super travel, it seems to me a lot of work for the small minority of characters who don't have any travel powers.
I cannot make much assumption on builds as the devs have not said as such but for build parity EVERY build should be required to have a travel power.
What I suggest is not in any way connected to travel powers. It can be used as a form of travel but is not a supplement for travel powers.
Why? What is the point? You don't like to walk? Even if it's only 30 feet away from where you are standing? Really? Is your character that lazy? Why can't we have taxi's? Or busses? Or trains?
oOStaticOo wrote:
Actually, there's a very big difference between the code required for NPC objects to move on a scripted path and the code required for players to interact and steer said objects. A lot more work for what I see as something that very few players will need or use, given most have super travel powers.
A valid argument. The difference is not as large as you make it claim but it does exist. Is it worth it, well that is what is being debated. I don't think it's a priority, but if they're gonna program moving vehicles anyway with rules of how they interact with the terrain… it becomes a "why not" proposition to me.
Why not? Because it's resources that are taken away from something else that may be more valuable to the game.
oOStaticOo wrote:
SWTOR demonstrates that players will drive their vehicles up and down stairs, on the sidewalks, through the Mall, into the store, and even in 'church'. I've seen a half dozen speeders, a Tauntaun, and a couple of giant lizards, all having an 'orgy' in a mailbox, on a Space Station.
That's because it's all apart of the Star Wars universe. Players SHOULD have fun the way they want to as long as it's not against the rules.
So you are telling me that it's part of Star Wars to have people crowd areas with their land speeders, tuantauns, and lizards? I don't remember seeing all of that when I watch Star Wars, I'll have to go back and watch it again.
oOStaticOo wrote:
These are all reasons listed above as to why this isn't a good idea. Again, you choose to ignore them.
I do not ignore them. I'm responding to them.
You did ignore them, and you even dismissed some of them as nonsense. That's why some of us are irritated.
oOStaticOo wrote:
You see no relevance to how this could affect game play. You do not view this as griefing. Yes players will always find some way to grief another player, but why give them even more options as to how this can be done? Just so that you can have your role play emersion? Because your character doesn't like walking around in high heels? Put on some sensible shoes then! How's that for role play?
Griefing happens. Some players are assholes. If the greatest problem is "crowding" then the AoE kiosking is a viable solution, and one already suggested by the devs.
Again, I ask, why give players more options to be able to grief?
oOStaticOo wrote:
For a single player game like Grand Theft Auto this is a great idea. Steal a car, ride around town to your next mission instead of hoofing it, it's all part of a mission, etc. For a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game, no. Hell no. Thousands of people all running around stealing cars and then all trying to go to their missions in them is just insanity. As has been mentioned, all the grid lock, traffic jams, bumper car escapades, blocking missions, etc. It's a nightmare waiting to happen.
Your argument that the majority of the players would use the vehicles instead of their travel powers seems incongruent with your argument that the majority of the players do not want to use vehicles.
Your use of hyperbole about this hypothetical suggests to me that you simply don't like the idea. Fair enough, but why not just say "I don't like the idea.
I don't mean to dismiss the problems with the idea. The issues you've cite just don't seem caused by my suggestion.
I personally would rather have intractable vehicles and non-interactable vehicles as seen in Millennium City of Champions Online. What I don't want to see is civilians being seen hurt.
If I had really wanted to go for Hyperbole I would have stated hundreds of thousands. Yes there will be thousands of people all trying to play Grand Theft Auto. Why? Because they can. Because the novelty will wear off for some, but not for everybody. Because new players well come into the game and then proceed to do it until they tire of it and a new set of players pick it up.
Anyways, I don't care if you respect me or not. Doesn't affect my life one way or the other. I'll still wake up and go about my business from day to day. I don't mind having ideas for new stuff that City of Heroes didn't have or couldn't do, I just want a game to be released first and foremost. I want the basics to be taken care of first, for it to be straightforward and simple. Then once we've gotten off of the ground we can start discussing all the bells and whistles that we'd like to see happen. THAT is what I'm advocating for and trying to fight for to happen.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I had no idea this subject could bring so much ire!
So I considered what some of the complaints were with vehicles as seen in other games, and I imagined a simple system to alleviate abuses. How do we keep people from driving through the park in RL? Well, the police handle this, but how do they do it? They severely inconvenience people who break the rules, and they impose fines and stuff. Meaning they arrest you and take your money.
So hey! I want to drive up to the mission door and show off my tiger-striped Ducati. When I get close, I smash all the trash cans so the ladies can see, and I park on the sidewalk like 'what', and enter mission. When I come out, I find that I lost SO much influence (or gold, whatever) in fines that I was like 'what!' Maybe I won't do that again real soon, or... until I get RICH.
At which point, I'll be like Bruce Wayne, and park wherever I want. Buuut... Oops, the fines increase in cost the more violations I accumulate. Hmm. I hate it when I get parking tickets Baltimore City sucks! Oh I mean Titan City. Sorry.
Okay. Now I want to take a shortcut through the park and scare all the birds, or through the Black Market, whatever. Watch me do wheelies. I'm aware that there's a percentage of the population that really frown on this behavior, but hey, I'm having fun. Buuuut... Oops, I didn't realize that after about 20 seconds of this form of infraction, the game exposes me to an instance of PvP, and all the players who told the system they hated this kind of thing suddenly have my real-time position on their minimap. This is a place filled with Heroes, after all, and crap! They're all coming to beat me up for real!
So that was embarrassing, getting beat up in the middle of the park on my Ducati by a brute and a corruptor, not a big fan of that. But I got a new idea. I'm going to get a bunch of buddies, and we'll ALL drive through the park, over and over again! Hahahaha! OOP. Those disapproving Heroes formed a channel. Er.... everyone who's logged onto the game right now is coming to Central Park to beat up my puny motorcycle gang.
I just think it would be cool to have the motorcycle! Ok, when I use the editor to make it, and pay the influence for the in-game license, I'll be agreeing to terms and conditions, blah blah blah...
Eh well, just having fun brainstorming/wishing!
Oh, I would like to add, I also don't want to see City of Titans be like Grand Theft Auto. Two difference games. Vehicles yes, persistent mayhem no. Unless you are a villain, maybe that works. Hehe.
Would you be more comfortable if there were a dealership that sold/rented drivable vehicles (again the same kind that are seen in the game itself). I thought about suggesting this in the OP, but realized it is much less accessible if you have to use your travel power to go all the way to the nearest dealership.
- -
As for the PvP aspect I do not think vehicles should be able to harm other players anymore than players using travel powers can harm/move/grief other players. I think the only time vehicles should be allowed actual "collision priority" is when the player jumps out of it (using it like a thrown vehicle).
The purpose for vehicles as I've suggested is for them NOT to be useful in combat. Perhaps entering combat, perhaps as a fleeing combat mechanism but most importantly not useful in combat.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I could certainly imagine a hero with a custom-skinned 'Taxi!'. They could then summon their fantastic-car to their location, hop in, and Path towards their destination. I do not feel that players should pilot the vehicles wherever they wanted. For free-form travel, there's super-powers.
Be Well!
Fireheart
My issues with this are
1) Custom Skinned - I am not a fan of spending the development needed for custom vehicles. The game is for superheroes that live in a city. Vehicle missions, and vehicle content development are a big no thank you from me. A large portion of my suggestion is to keeping vehicles marginalized and less important
2) Taxi - Unlike choosing to drive myself somewhere, getting in a Taxi, Subway, Monorail etc feels "un-super". I don't want to go from feeling like HBIC to feeling like I can't drive my own car.
- -
I treat travel powers as apart of my build for combat primarily. How my character fights and how my character gets around a city should not be so easily married in my view. Is it a top priority for me no, but If I could take anything away from my suggestion for those who want vehicles I say keep them marginalized and don't lose sight that the game is for super powered characters.
I RP full time (not the stand around and talk kind of RPer but the kind that of player that stays in character but prefers to spend their time fighting/playing the game). I support emotes and other RP development that I have no real personal use for, this is an RP tool that I actually WOULD put to good use. But If vehicles become much more than "RP travel use" and "Throwable Objects" then I will feel they will over-step their usefulness.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
By 'custom', I mean a purchased or earned, or chosen 'non-Taxi' skin, like a motorcycle, super-mobile, armored-car, mole-machine, limousine, or vanilla-sedan. Custom appearance, but the function is still to move the player(s) from their current location to another.
Be Well!
Fireheart
It occurs to me that vehicles could be considered to be a special effect of a loosely teleport-like travel power, where you have the map pop up, and you mark where you want to go, then the power animates with a taxi pulling up and you getting into it, or materializing a motorcycle or car and driving off, or climbing into a mole machine that digs out of sight, then traverses the distance to your destination according to your selected mode -- moving along the street grid for cars and bikes, launching into the sky and zooming past the buildings, digging into the ground and popping up at your destination for a mole machine, etc. You wouldn't be able to jump in your vehicle and tool around the city directly; it would be a little like the taxi stations in SWTOR, in that you start at a location and are carried to your destination without player interaction, but you would be able to pick [i]anywhere[/i] as your destination.
Well, the devs have stated that if they were to ever include vehicles they would like them to be customizable - and considering we will be able to customize just about every other aspect of our character, it makes no sense to limit this one area. For heroes and villains that use vehicles to any great extent - those vehicles are often just as unique and flavourful as the character's own costume.
Even if it would take more work to get them in down the road I'd rather the devs take their time to do them right - no matter the way we interact with them (persistent game objects or re-skinned travel powers or what have you).
Once you give your pig a name it is no longer pork.
Customizing vehicles means more time spent using/looking at/playing with vehicles. I've been in the world where vehicles are on the same par as superheroes and didn't like it.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
But remember - I'm not advocating a CO-style (or GTA-style) model here. Nor am I saying they have to be in at launch. But if vehicles are introduced and they are mostly cosmetic in nature, then they would be no different than modifying the look and feel of your costume or individual powers (in fact they would effectively BE a "power").
We ate our pig Arnold. He was delicious. It was a bitter-savory meal.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
HAHA first post i read this morning is the best! Thanks for the easy laugh on a rainy Saturday. (If it's any consolation my grandmother cooked our pet rabbit.. so you're not alone)
Crowd Control Enthusiast