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User Mods

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Cyclops
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User Mods

A dev mentioned these in another thread.

User mods: How powerful are they going to be? I'm assuming they will be for the Players PC only.

Mods have turned Skyrim into a mega hit.
Skyrim has ENBs, extra lands, alternate skeletons, and player made adventures...Is COT going to be the first multi player MMO that allows this?
The possibilities are overwhelming. The game will explode with content.

Whats the plans for this? will COT sell a separate modding kit for a modding community?
How will all this work?

I love this game, but I am really excited now.

Lothic
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The main concern is how the

The main concern is how the game would (or could) handle mods in a multiplayer environment fairly. The mods that were possible in CoH were strictly "client side only" and could not affect anyone else in the game nor could they provide any in-game advantages as far as leveling up or PVP situations. Basically they were completely cosmetic and would not let you "cheat" relative to any other player in the game. Because games like Skyrim or Fallout 4 are single player games the mods allowed in those games are very different and would let you change practically anything including the game's environment or your combat capabilities. Obviously that wouldn't be possible in a multiplayer game on public servers.

But we do know that the Devs of CoT have mentioned a long term goal of making CoT flexible enough to let individual players run their own private servers. If that's the case then the mods allowed on those servers may be far more wide-ranging and powerful than CoH's client-only mods. Perhaps it'll just be a matter of making sure that any server-wide mods would be disabled on the main "public" servers but enabled on any player run server.

Clearly there will be a lot to think about in this area in terms of what the Devs will eventually allow/support.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Grimfox
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I think the mods allowed by

I think the mods allowed by COT will be closer to those allowed by WOW. Which I think are more like plugins. They offer features like in game web browsing, DPS calculators, and bejeweled. For me the most impressive mods are the graphics mods. SW:Battlefront has a lighting mod which turns the game into something like the latest expansion trailer for SWTOR. It's absolutely stunning. But it also requires some heavy hardware to run in a live game. I think these types of graphical mods would be allowed. As they wouldn't aid a players performance but may hinder their experience.

I think these types of mods are important to allow because of the nature of this game and it's development. If a volunteer puts some time into developing a mod which greatly improves the graphics with minimal performance hit, or optimizes texture loading, or the lighting, or resolves a bug on the client side. COT could roll that into the main game to make things better for everyone. If they really wanted to they could make a mod bounty program to encourage freelance developers to pursue certain game improvements.

Some mods that I don't think will be allowed on public servers, it's hard to say. There's not really a good use for aimbots mods as there will be little to no "aiming." And macro's are going to be allowed to aid movement impaired gamers, so botting is a real possibility and I'd think that is something that will have to be policed by the community via a "report user" functionality. I understand most of the calculations for damage and things like that will be done on the server side so any performance boosting mods just wont work. Well, they might show you much larger numbers on your side but when the calculation is done on the server the actual result is going to be as expected.

There is a double edged sword here too. If someone nefarious takes a mod and plants a rootkit or other infection in it and then places that mod on a DL site that could be very dangerous for unexpecting users. So you allow mods but it opens your game community to attacks. So it may be something that MWM has to say no to officially for liability reasons. Otherwise they have to come up with a way to vet each mod and put it on a officially supported mods page. Which is an even more time intensive and laborious task than approving custom SG group logos, which have been discussed before.

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Wildstar was the first MMORPG

Wildstar was the first MMORPG I am aware of that was built from the ground up with player mods being a core capability. Since Wildstar was made by a bunch of ex-WoW developers, that is only natural they would understand and build for that capability.

But all the mods developed for WoW and Wildstar are all data manipulation mods and UI mods.

No intelligent game developer would put any core components of the game on the client side anymore where they can be modified by players. You saw what happened to the Division last year. So there is a limit to what can and should be modded.

I love UI mods. I would encourage the ability to change the look and feel of the game depending on the character being played. An alien UI mod, a steampunk UI mod, a magical UI mod. All these things would kick button. The ability to change how and where UI elements are displayed, like hit points, buffs and debuffs would also be well received.

I severely dislike datamining mods, however. Mods like DPS counters, and when certain loot or NPCs exists in the world are absolutely abused by the players and make the game far more success-oriented and far less fun-oriented. We've discussed this in plenty of other threads for this game and others so I don't feel I need to explain why these are bad for the gaming community.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Radiac
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In a game where you can

In a game where you can already tailor your avatar and powers to look like practically anything you want, I have to wonder what a graphics mod is even needed for.

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Doctor Tyche
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I am sitting here scratching

I am sitting here scratching my head, honestly, where this idea came from.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Lothic
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

In a game where you can already tailor your avatar and powers to look like practically anything you want, I have to wonder what a graphics mod is even needed for.

I assume when you say "graphics mod" you narrowly only mean something like a costume item or body model mod. There's a bunch of different kinds of mods (like for GUIs) that could be called "graphics mods" too. Regardless no matter how many ways the Devs of CoT manage to let us customize our characters if they somehow allowed for players to also create costume and/or cosmetic mods then the total number of options available to all of us would be increased astronomically.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Radiac
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At what point does increasing

At what point does increasing the options via user-generated mods hit the diminishing returns threshold though? I can already, one assumes, tailor my toon, choose colors for my powers, choose animations for my powers, and move the various GUI objects (like chat wondow, power icon tray, etc) around the GUI, and/or turn them on and off at will, right? CoX had that for the GUI. The only user-generated mod-like thing in CoX was the hacked version of the map, which shouldn't have even been necessary if the CoX devs had made the map more functional in the first place, with locations of stuff and so forth. In any event, I feel like user mods will amount to little more than re-inventing the wheel, attempts at hacking and spreading malware, and maybe some added, but almost totally unneeded graphics that only the inventor can actually see, along with the possibility of unWANTED stuff that will generate complaints from parents, etc.

It sounds like more work that it's worth to do it and could be inviting disaster. I'd just not do it, personally.

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Lothic
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Huckleberry wrote:Wildstar
Huckleberry wrote:

Wildstar was the first MMORPG I am aware of that was built from the ground up with player mods being a core capability. Since Wildstar was made by a bunch of ex-WoW developers, that is only natural they would understand and build for that capability.

CoH allowed for player created client-side mods as a "core capability" from Day One. I toyed around with a few costume mods for CoH back during the summer of 2004. They just never openly "advertised" that it existed because they didn't want to have to support it via customer service. It was basically provided on a "don't ask/don't tell" basis.

I'll grant you that Wildstar probably provides many more modding options than CoH ever did but you can't really strictly call it "the first MMORPG that allowed player mods".

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Huckleberry
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Regardless no matter how many ways the Devs of CoT manage to let us customize our characters if they somehow allowed for players to also create costume and/or cosmetic mods then the total number of options available to all of us would be increased astronomically.

This is so true. The ability to have user-generated costume mods could create a very active after-market.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Lothic
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

At what point does increasing the options via user-generated mods hit the diminishing returns threshold though? I can already, one assumes, tailor my toon, choose colors for my powers, choose animations for my powers, and move the various GUI objects (like chat wondow, power icon tray, etc) around the GUI, and/or turn them on and off at will, right? CoX had that for the GUI. The only user-generated mod-like thing in CoX was the hacked version of the map, which shouldn't have even been necessary if the CoX devs had made the map more functional in the first place, with locations of stuff and so forth. In any event, I feel like user mods will amount to little more than re-inventing the wheel, attempts at hacking and spreading malware, and maybe some added, but almost totally unneeded graphics that only the inventor can actually see, along with the possibility of unWANTED stuff that will generate complaints from parents, etc.
It sounds like more work that it's worth to do it and could be inviting disaster. I'd just not do it, personally.

CoH allowed for all sorts of client side mods. You might have thought the "only" ones that existed were the map mods because those were the only ones that got "famous" enough to be widely used. CoH allowed for client mods related (but not limited) to icons, colors, costume items, sounds attached to powers, and so on. I see no reason why CoT should be any less capable in this area than CoH was - at the very least that would be a fairly huge step backwards for a game launching post 2016.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Radiac
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Those mods that CoX had on

Those mods that CoX had on the "secret menu" were, as you said, not actively supported by the game devs though. As long as you're not asking MWM to support it, advertize it, or implement it in a way that opens users up to possible malware attacks or privacy violations (e.g. I install some mod or another and it installs a keyboard repeater on my computer that I'm not aware of, then my account gets hacked, etc) then I don't care. If there IS a chance that any third party mods would be able to put my security at risk, I'd rather MWM just not allow ANY mods just to be safe. They, the devs, can make new content too, so why not just do that instead of letting modders beat them to a lot of stuff?

If a modder makes a cool looking sombrero and then the devs roll out an almost identical "official" sombrero, are they liable to get sued by the modder? If so, then just don't allow mod, problem solved.
If downloading mods for the game from some sketchy third party website or FTP site can possibly cause my computer to get hacked, then please insulate me from that by making the mods not possible.
Those are my personal views. And if they do restrict it such that there are no mods possible, then I would expect them to roll out a lot of that stuff as official upgrades etc, like making the map better, new costume pieces, etc.

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There are good, relatively

There are good, relatively safe, well-moderated modding communities out there. EQInterface is one I belonged to long ago, and has spawned a dozen sister-sites for other games. Curse is another one, which I used for WoW. I experienced these communities as being passionate about making games look good and work good.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Grimfox
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You raise an interesting

You raise an interesting point about costume mods. If the developer creates a Mariachi costume set and sells it for a few dollars then in theory anyone could create a mod that allowed the clientside to display their costume as having the mariachi costume or pieces of it (this would be as simple as switching the asset names in the directory I think). This would be visible only to themselves but they wouldn't have had to pay for it. This is something that I would be against because it is effectively stealing content from the devs who are charging for it.

This was doable in COH to a degree. Someone had created a mod that allowed them to display non-character weapons as being possessed by the character. So the Jurassic-car-club or Jack-In-Irons club was "usable" by the character. These were scaled to standard character size however, I never saw that this was done in the live game and it wasn't visible to anyone else.

As far as where the mod idea came from it stems from the bulge physics thread I think where it was mentioned that the character model could be modded to support a bit of jiggle if the user really wanted it. I think this was a somewhat of approval and confirmation that mods would be allowed to some degree, thus this thread.

Lothic
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

If there IS a chance that any third party mods would be able to put my security at risk, I'd rather MWM just not allow ANY mods just to be safe.

I really can't see how a player using a client-side mod on their machine could possibly affect your machine in any way. The whole point of CLIENT-SIDE mods being restricted to client-side only is that there's essentially zero-chance of that mod affecting anyone else. The only thing a client-side mod does is replace a data file on your computer with a different one - there's no mechanism whatsoever for "malware code" or "foreign data" to go from one machine to another. Your fear of them is effectively groundless. Let me put it to you this way: In the 8+ year history of CoH did you ever once hear of anyone's game being hacked or corrupted by someone else's client-side mod? Of course you didn't. In fact I would be very comfortable in assuming that it never happened even once to anybody.

If I were asking for some kind of NEW modding capability that never existed in CoH then I might almost be willing to accept your hyper-extreme skepticism over this. But I'm basically only suggesting that the SAME level of modding that existed in CoH be preserved in CoT. It's basically impossible for you to make a reasonable case against something for CoT that happily existed in CoH for its entire 8+ year lifespan without notable incident.

Radiac wrote:

They, the devs, can make new content too, so why not just do that instead of letting modders beat them to a lot of stuff?

As talented as it seems the Devs of CoT are they are only a handful of people. Don't you think potentially hundreds of people working on things for this game could produce far more content than a handful in a given amount of time? Frankly the whole reason that modding ever became a thing for ANY game in the history of gaming was the fact that the player community could produce things the Devs either never had time for or ever imagined in the first place.

Radiac wrote:

If a modder makes a cool looking sombrero and then the devs roll out an almost identical "official" sombrero, are they liable to get sued by the modder? If so, then just don't allow mod, problem solved.

If the CoT EULA is written correctly (which I assume it will be) then modders will likely have no legal grounds to sue over a scenario like this. Remember if CoT is like CoH then basically any character concept/likeness or "player created" content will be legally owned by MWM automatically.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Godling
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I can see where sound mods

I can see where sound mods could be important some players may not like a particular sound. and replace it altogether. There are other client side mods that were basically individual taste but the most game advantage i ever seen is something like a highlighter or made difficult to see things more visible.

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One problem with mods is the

One problem with mods is the game bloat that comes out of it. If you allow anything other than client side modding that is. I would love for the game to be a little like sims so you could makes something and upload it to the community, but with an mmo, I imagine the nightmares that could occur.

I had always thought that perhaps allowing players to create mods and submit them to the developer. If they are approved allow players to buy the mod on the developer's store for a piece of the profit might work. If I paid a $1.00 for a new set of pants and the developer kept a dime or whatever, the value could be huge depending on the population base. In theory there are people that could actually support themselves with some good mods and the developers would not have to put resources into developing them. It is a possible win/win.....However, as I noted not sure what the bloat would look like with 20,000 new potential costume pieces in a game in 4 months.

Lothic
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alewolf wrote:
alewolf wrote:

I had always thought that perhaps allowing players to create mods and submit them to the developer. If they are approved allow players to buy the mod on the developer's store for a piece of the profit might work. If I paid a $1.00 for a new set of pants and the developer kept a dime or whatever, the value could be huge depending on the population base. In theory there are people that could actually support themselves with some good mods and the developers would not have to put resources into developing them. It is a possible win/win.....However, as I noted not sure what the bloat would look like with 20,000 new potential costume pieces in a game in 4 months.

If the Devs actually tried to add "20,000 new player submitted mods in 4 months" then it probably would be a nightmare for them. But the key thing to remember is that the Devs would be in full control how many submissions they would allow into the system. If it turned out that the Devs could only comfortably handle allowing say 50 new player submissions per month into the game then that's all that would get made - the Devs would never have to allow themselves to get overloaded.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Sorry the 20,000 mods comment

Sorry the 20,000 mods comment was a little bit sarcastic, the point was I think they will get flooded with requests and that in itself can be an issue. So it is good that there would be high interest and bad as there will be high interest.

Remember they have already said that the kickstarter benefits have already been a problem for them.

Lothic
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alewolf wrote:
alewolf wrote:

Sorry the 20,000 mods comment was a little bit sarcastic, the point was I think they will get flooded with requests and that in itself can be an issue. So it is good that there would be high interest and bad as there will be high interest.
Remember they have already said that the kickstarter benefits have already been a problem for them.

Right I realized you were being a bit hyperbolic with your "20,000" number but my point still stands. If the Devs only feel comfortable processing (say for the sake of discussion) 50 player submissions per month then that's all they have to do. It'd be totally up to them. If they make it clear that they are under no obligation to ACCEPT every player submission then they can be selective and only bother with the ones that are the best. Any money that would be involved would only get paid/exchanged for submissions that are accepted.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012