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Unique Additions of Flavor

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Huckleberry
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Unique Additions of Flavor

I was just doing my thing and I heard the musical notes of an ice cream truck in the neighborhood. It stirred some good thoughts.

And since City of Titans is always foremost on my mind, I immediately thought of how cool it would be if there was an ice cream truck in Titan City. It makes its rounds throughout the entire city, randomly would be best, but an established route would be just fine. Besides ice cream for the kids It also sells consumables for heroes and might have other uses like providing clues to missions (an investigation mission can obtain one clue at most from the ice cream man but a clue can be obtained for any investigation), or who knows what. Additional capabilities can be added or removed as the game matures.

Players would never know where the ice cream truck ever is, but I am imagining the little thrill that players would get when we hear those dulcet tunes heralding the approach of THE ice cream truck. Or imagine fast traveling across the city and you hear the tune.

I think little unique bits of flavor like this can really help make the city seem alive.

Gabby Cabby could be another one. Who knows what Gabby Cabby could provide?

Does anyone else have any other ideas for unique additions of flavor to the city?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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An inside informant with tips

An inside informant with tips for jobs/investigations that meets you in random locations in random "undercover" costumes.

StellarAgent
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Ice Cream Truck in the

Ice Cream Truck in the suburbs, vendor carts downtown and at the park, etc., etc.. There are many ways of doing this and was once discussed years ago.

Still, its a good idea to refresh these types of ideas.

Edit: News stands for mission clues . . .

Redlynne
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Some years back, when the

Some years back, when the topic was Hospital services after a defeat, I proposed the notion of having each of the three different alignment axes having 3 different hospitals each (for a total of 9 hospitals) and which hospitals were available to you to choose to rez at would be determined by where your alignment was set on each of the 3 axes.

The kicker was the idea that one of the available hospitals would have been a Mobile Meatwagon that essentially amounted to a wetware chop shop that cruised around town, so it wasn't always in the same place (kind of like your ice cream truck idea, Huckleberry). When you used the Meatwagon as your hospital rez, you would basically rez getting thrown out the back of the Meatwagon (while it was moving) because it wouldn't stop just to let you out. I think I had the Mobile Meatwagon as an idea for a maximal Violent alignment Hospital service option ... while the neutral Violent alignment Hospital could have been a ship permanently docked in the port (basically a "grey" zone for "don't mess wit' da union" violence) and the minimum violent hospital could have been some kind of New Age building type place that was dedicated to peace (and love and... you get the idea).

But yeah, Ice Cream Truck.
If you can /emote to it, it will pull over so you can talk to the Contact inside and purchase minor inspirations.


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I maintain that Titan Taxi

I maintain that Titan Taxi should be a Faction and source of missions. Also, Transportation to the mission, of course.

So you're sitting in the shade, enjoying your fresh ice cream, and Gabby Cabby(tm) screeches to a stop and shouts, "Hero! Thank the gods you're here! You're needed at the big To-Do on Paramount! Come on! Hop in! I'll give you a ride."

Be Well!
Fireheart

Huckleberry
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I maintain that Titan Taxi should be a Faction and source of missions. Also, Transportation to the mission, of course.

So you're sitting in the shade, enjoying your fresh ice cream, and Gabby Cabby(tm) screeches to a stop and shouts, "Hero! Thank the gods you're here! You're needed at the big To-Do on Paramount! Come on! Hop in! I'll give you a ride."

I would totally be down with that!


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Huckleberry
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Some years back, when the topic was Hospital services after a defeat, I proposed the notion of having each of the three different alignment axes having 3 different hospitals each (for a total of 9 hospitals) and which hospitals were available to you to choose to rez at would be determined by where your alignment was set on each of the 3 axes.

I remember that idea or was it this idea? I really liked it at the time, and I like it just as much now. But rather than nine hospitals, you would only need seven. One Hospital for each alignment extreme and one hospital for all the characters who don't exhibit an extreme alignment and that last would be a local emergency clinic and should be an option for every character regardless of alignment. The threshold between what one considers extreme or not would be up to the game developers. I also think that faction-related hospitals would be appropriate as a reward for maintaining a high reputation with certain factions. I can just picture The Regency resurrecting us in an actual mission instance map by means of some necromantic ceremony if our reputation with them is exalted, for instance.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Redlynne
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

and that last would be a local emergency clinic and should be an option for every character regardless of alignment.

There's just one problem with that idea ... "local" can't be, well ... "everywhere nearby, no matter where you are in the city."
If you have a fixed location (like the Hospitals in Paragon City, the Rogue Isles or Praetoria, for example), those services are "local" in the sense that there was 1 per zone ... but Titan City isn't going to be structured like that. Titan City doesn't have War Walls.
In fact, the only meaningful zone distinction (as opposed to separate neighborhoods) is going to be between North and South of the bay/river that runs through the middle of the city.

To put this into the proper context ... let's say that Praetoria had only 1 Loyalist Hospital AT ALL above ground in Nova Praetoria (and 1 Resistance Hospital underground in Nova Praetoria).
If you were defeated in Imperial City (the next zone over) or in Neutropolis (2 zones over) or out in First Ward (2 zones over) or Night Ward (3 zones over) ... the only Hospitals you could rez at were in Nova Praetoria.
In a Paragon City context, the only Hospitals in the entire city would have been in Atlas Park and Galaxy City, and which one you could rez at was determined by where you got defeated (Steel Canyon and Perez Park go to Atlas, Skyway and Faultline go to Galaxy City, for example).

When the "Hospital coverage" gets to be extremely large in a contiguous world that IS NOT divided up into lots of discrete zones demarcated by loading screens (and War Walls) ... you start running into problems with the definition of "local" coverage.

Just look at the pulldown menu at the top of this page for Titan City Districts.

  • Alexandria
  • Old Bradford
  • Downtown
  • Victory Beach
  • North Eastern Research District
  • Aurora
  • Highpoint
  • Ironport
  • Clarkstown
  • Weston

Now imagine that there is only ONE Hospital serving the enormous area that all of those districts cover.
Get defeated ... Return To Start ... and have to run ALL THE WAY BACK to the Mission Door, quite possibly MILES AWAY (which then raises the stakes on choice of Travel Powers).
It's not quite a Corpse Run ala WoW ... but it's close ... simply due to the potential distances involved.

This is why I was of the opinion that since the City of Titans will have regions of the city NOT divided up by War Walls (go figure...) that multiple Hospitals would be needed.
Being able to CHOOSE which Hospital to rez at allows Players to CHOOSE the presumably closest Hospital to where they were defeated so as to "return to the action" more quickly after defeat due to shorter travel distance.
By tying those available options to the Alignment axes, you create a situation where the choice for closest Hospital isn't always the same for everyone ... thereby introducing variation of choices within a group context. That way, you don't have a "parade" of supers all running from the same Point A to the same Point B after a Team Wipe.

And then, just to make the choice of where to rez even MORE interesting than that, not all of the "Hospitals" you can rez at are fixed locations (like buildings) ... but some of them might be mobile (like a Meat Wagon truck constantly driving around town, or a Blimp floating around on a patrol pattern in the sky, or even just a simple Ambulance that doesn't need to take you "all the way" to the Hospital to revive your super because the EMTs are just that good with one of them being an Empath who can rez supers in the ambulance).

So the basic idea becomes that the service (rez after defeat) is necessary, but WHERE it happens doesn't necessarily need to be the same place for everyone (so as to bring Alignment choices into the picture), and the actual location can either be fixed or mobile (creating meaningful choices for Players to choose from when using the service). In other words, throw a few ingredients into the frying pan and everyone gets different omlettes (so to speak) rather than having a One Size Fits All BORINGLY™ type of situation.


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Tannim222
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First, alignments are

First, alignments are character facing, not “world” facing. And they play a part in how the narrative of the character’s Path story plays out.

The “world” facing system is Renown. And no, we aren’t adding a hospital for each Renown type to each area.

The current defeat system is handled like this:
Player is defeated. Options are to use a rez power if one is available. Use a reserve of one is available. A player expend the proper reserve to revive their fallen ally.
All of these, one the spot rez comes with their own built in costs - choice on build or if chosen, a cool down occurs. In the case of reserves, it’s expending a resource.

The next options are: use a “crash cart” which costs Cred and revives you at a nearby “safe” location. If the character is defeated in a mission, this may be a spot near the mission door for example.

Finally, there is the option to have a MedEvac which is free, as in does not cost Cred. However this can cost time in returning back to the mission. And this is by intent. As the time away from the content is considered a “cost of defeat” .

Now one thing being considered for adding to this is at the hospital a player can “call a cab” in which there is a cost in Cred (which is less than the crash cart cost) through which the character enters a called cab and it auto-paths to the chosen location (or nearest spot the cab can get to the location). This is essentially “safe” in that the player doesn’t have to worry about chance encounters of the wrong kind that can hold them back (or send them back to the hospital) but it does cost some time in returning also.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

...the character enters a called cab and it auto-paths to the chosen location...

I think the "call a cab" option of returning to the mission door after a hospital rez is a nice touch. I like Fireheart's idea of somehow creating a taxicab faction with renown that provides some rewards such as this service you mention. If you piss off the taxicab faction, they choose not to take you or the costs are exorbitant. On the other hand, this could provide an opening to create an alternative faction to the taxicabs. Maybe the Black Rose picks you up in a nondescript black sedan instead or some indentured super picks you up in a rickshaw in Dragons territory or something. Having faction renown tied to actual in-game rewards such as safe return to mission entrance gives extra weight to a character's decisions.

Furthermore, since taxis are becoming phased out in favor of Uber and Lyft, or whatever brand might exist in Titan City, we might want to take another look at what we call this service. Maybe we still have a legacy taxicab faction holding out against an upstart entrepreneur business; one or both are using underhanded tricks to sway the competition in their favor. This would give fertile ground for some hero and villain stories. And since neither is good or bad, you could give each a distinct flavor and style. This gives the players some agency to affect how the world behaves around them, or at least the perception of such agency.

Tannim222 wrote:

The next options are: use a “crash cart” which costs Cred and revives you at a nearby “safe” location. If the character is defeated in a mission, this may be a spot near the mission door for example.

Finally, there is the option to have a MedEvac which is free, as in does not cost Cred. However this can cost time in returning back to the mission. And this is by intent. As the time away from the content is considered a “cost of defeat” .

Tannim, I think maybe we're talking past each other here.
What you are stating above does NOT preclude Redlynne's idea. You clearly state that players can revive at a nearby safe location or get an evacuation to a hospital. I think Redlynne's idea is basically to create the look and feel of said safe location or hospital in accordance with some aspect of the player. Redlynne suggests alignment, but renown would be just as good, I think. If you seed locations throughout the city with such characteristics, then it is a simple matter of choosing the nearest applicable one. Either the game selects it or you allow the character to select it (provide distances so the player can make an educated decision)


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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The issue is with making a

The issue is with making a hospital location that is fits each renown and you have to add to that if new Renowns enter play. We are going to KISS and keep it to a single location.

I forgot to add that it can also be possible to have a super base with a med station and you can RTB to get revived. This would far more suit players who want a thematic location that suits their character.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The issue is with making a hospital location that is fits each renown and you have to add to that if new Renowns enter play. We are going to KISS and keep it to a single location.

While I can understand the nod to making the most of developer time. I also understand that there is no good way of measuring the value of player immersion and cool factor. I suppose it all comes down to whether or not someone on the dev team thinks it has value or not. Our mission in these forums is to make a case for such value. One way of dealing with the issue you state above is to use custom instances for the style of rez location and piggyback on existing mission doors to spit people out of their rez location. This way you can add new renowns and such into the game without having to redesign the city to account for new rez locations.

Tannim222 wrote:

I forgot to add that it can also be possible to have a super base with a med station and you can RTB to get revived. This would far more suit players who want a thematic location that suits their character.

Thanks for presenting this. I really like this idea. Follow-up questions:

  • Will our super bases have designated locations/doors in the city?
  • If calling a cab does become an option, will we be able to call a cab from our super base? I would like it so.

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The “world” facing system is Renown. And no, we aren’t adding a hospital for each Renown type to each area.

9 Hospitals for 9 Renown values north of the bay/river ... 9 Hospitals for 9 Renown values south of the river.
Total = 18 Hospitals.

Paragon City had 20 zones with 20 hospitals in them above ground (and the Shadow Shard had 1 hospital for 4 zones), not including Pocket D (another hospital) and Cimerora (yet another hospital facility in zone).

Given how LARGE Titan City is planned to be (16km x 16km area) ... having only ONE "real" Hospital north and south of the bay/river running through the center of town seems kind of frugal to the point of being self-defeatingly parsimonious.

Unless, of course, you were planning to have only ONE Hospital for the ENTIRE City of Titans.

One Hospital to rule them all
One Hospital to fine them
One Hospital to bring them all to
And in the darkness bind their wounds (among other things) ...
In the land of Titans where insurance statements lie like a {redacted}


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Tannim222
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Huckleberry][quote=Tannim222
Huckleberry][quote=Tannim222 wrote:

[*]Will our super bases have designated locations/doors in the city?
[*]If calling a cab does become an option, will we be able to call a cab from our super base? I would like it so.
[/list]

Q1 Yes. Super Bases will have designated doors. We did a mini-update on this a while back.
Q2 It is possible...

Redlynne wrote:

Unless, of course, you were planning to have only ONE Hospital for the ENTIRE City of Titans.

I never said we were only have "one hospital" for the entire city. Just that we aren't going to make renown-themed hospitals for each an every district (zone) in the world map.


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Tannim222 wrote:

For all concerned, we've been using the term renown incorrectly in this thread lately. I recommend everyone go back to the Beyond Good and Evil II announcement for a refresher on renown and reputation, and the original Beyond Good and Evil announcement for details on the 3-axis alignment system.

Tannim222 wrote:

I never said we were only have "one hospital" for the entire city. Just that we aren't going to make renown-themed hospitals for each an every district (zone) in the world map.

Fair enough. But since there are four renowns: Hero, Villain, Vigilante and Scoundrel, it should be pretty easy to put at least one hospital for each in the game, in addition to the general hospital that is 1) always an option, and 2) available for people below the threshold for all four renowns. (Yes, I am aware that you only plan on having Hero and Villain at launch, but it is best to plan for the other two now.)

Like Redlynne suggested, each should have its own characteristics. Here are a some suggestions:

  • the Hero renown hospital would be bright white, a special high tech hospital with very high security and that has facilities to cater to any type of super being.
  • the Villain renown hospital would be an underground facility with cybernetic and monstrous staff and even some coerced staff whose families are being held to assure compliance. The fear that first appears on our attendants' faces should give way to relief that we are better.
  • the Vigilante hospital would be a back alley chop shop served by a single overworked doctor and a few other volunteers with hearts of gold. Anesthesia is a luxury they just can't afford, except for the 100 proof kind.
  • the scoundrel hospital would be a luxurious mahogany and velvet affair in some mansion somewhere with nurses that look they came from a halloween costume catalog.
  • the General Hospital should be a high tech version of what we see on TV.

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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It might be interesting to

It might be interesting to have some sort of 'theme' for various Renown statuses and then pick a spot to anchor that in each district. One wouldn't necessarily have to build a physical hospital for each one. Every DocWagon probably looks similar. Hagar's HackWagon might kick the corpse to the curb anywhere. There's no telling where Doctor Penumbra's Reanimation Lab is physically located, but they can relocate you back to wherever you came from... approximately anyway... Maybe. There may certainly be places that Titan EMS simply won't go, not without a heavy escort.
I remember some missions in CoH where there was an issue of the Emergency Medical Teleportation System being hijacked to deliver heroes to illicit medical locations, so they could be harvested, or something?
There might be multiple, competing, hospital services systems in town? I mean, here in Albuquerque, you might go to University, Lovelace, or Presbyterian. And that's if you don't need a Cardiac unit. We have specialty hospitals, as well. Considering the presence of 'Wyrd' in CoT, there might be a number of different Styles of medical support one could subscribe to.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I don’t know how to explain

I don’t know how to explain this any differently. we aren’t going to have a hospital for each renown in each district.

To. It do that and only have them in specific districts is even worse.

And no, the game will have all 4 Renowns at launch but only Paths for hero and villain.

Each district will have a hospital that fits the theme of that locale and the locales are not designed around Renown.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Each district will have a hospital that fits the theme of that locale and the locales are not designed around Renown.

That sounds plenty O'Cool.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I don’t know how to explain this any differently. we aren’t going to have a hospital for each renown in each district.

Since no one actually even suggested a hospital for each renown in each district, I question why you have twice now stated you're not going to have that.

The only conclusion I can arrive at is that the game WILL have a hospital in each district because hospital rez's only occur within the district where we were defeated. Because of this, the dev thinks that IF we want different hospitals for each renown to rez from, THEN we must be asking for the game to provide each renown in each district. Because the game will not permit out-of-district rez.

Is this a correct assumption? If so, how will the game handle super base rez, since you've confirmed that super bases are in fixed locations anywhere in the city?

Tannim222 wrote:

Each district will have a hospital that fits the theme of that locale and the locales are not designed around Renown.

This is encouraging. I don't think anyone expected to have a different look and feel to every hospital in the game based upon the neighborhood it is in. It would be pretty nifty to wake up and know where you are by the look of the hospital's interior. I still think I would prefer a renown-based system, though.
You'd only have to make five, so that would reduce the overall workload on the devs, even if you put one of each in each district. Keep the interiors mostly identical to reduce developer effort, just changing a few things like the art on the wall and the signs on the door, etc., if you feel you must. Just the exteriors would need to reflect the neighborhood, and even then you could also maximize re-use as much as possible in a number of ways. A subway entrance or other subterranean mission door for the villain lair, a dark alley or ramshackle building's mission door for the vigilante, and some upscale looking mission door for the scoundrel. I say mission door here to emphasize that no overt exterior markings or design should be giving away any of these locations. In other words, no dev really needs to spend any time creating the exterior of these renown hospitals. The only ones that would need to look like actual hospitals on the outside would be the general hospital for non-renown option and the Hero hospital. So the General Hospital would capitalize on the work devs have already done. The Hero hospital could just be a little Emergency clinic, since they only do outpatient care. And those could be either put into the ground floor of a building downtown, or a cookie cutter building every where else. "As recognizable as McDonalds, there's a Happy Hero's Rapid Care Emergency Clinic Near You!"


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I don’t know how to explain this any differently. we aren’t going to have a hospital for each renown in each district.

{sigh}
Okay ... one more time ...

Redlynne wrote:

Just look at the pulldown menu at the top of this page for Titan City Districts.

  1. Alexandria
  2. Old Bradford
  3. Downtown
  4. Victory Beach
  5. North Eastern Research District
  6. Aurora
  7. Highpoint
  8. Ironport
  9. Clarkstown
  10. Weston

If there was a Hospital for each of the 3 Alignment axes (with 3 settings for each axis) in each District, that would be 10*9=90 Hospitals just in the above Districts.
That is an obviously wrong interpretation.

If there was a Hospital for each Renown (with 4 settings) in each District, that would be 10*4=40 Hospitals just in the above Districts.
That is ALSO an obviously wrong interpretation.

Also, just as obviously, these are not the only Districts planned for City of Titans.
Good thing then that NO ONE is asking for 40-90 Hospitals getting scattered around Titan City then, eh?

All the way back on 18 Dec 2015 ... Warcabbit posted a quick and dirty image of the terrain map that Titan City will occupy.

At some other point (I can't find the post for it) a layout of planned district maps was overlaid onto this terrain (which thankfully I saved offline back in April 2015).

By my count, that is 34 distinctly color coded Districts planned for Titan City ... 16 north, 18 south (count them yourself if you don't believe me).

So, quick cross-check (for sanity ... yours and mine).

3 Hospitals per Alignment axis (with 3 Alignment axes) means 34*3*3=306 Hospitals ... *IF* each District gets its own set of Hospitals for each Alignment axis (of which there are 3 with 3 settings each).
This is OBVIOUSLY wrong/bad/stupid/foolish thinking (and anyone who thought this was the correct interpretation needs to look at themselves in the mirror and reflect on WHY you would make that assumption).

4 Hospitals for 4 Alignments in each District means 34*4=136 Hospitals ... *IF* each District gets its own set of 4 Hospitals for each of the 4 Renown choices.
This is ALSO OBVIOUSLY wrong/bad/stupid/foolish thinking (and anyone who thought this was the correct interpretation needs to look at themselves in the mirror and reflect on WHY you would make that assumption).

So ... what's the "correct" answer then, if both of the interpretations above are so obviously wrong?
Well I'm glad you asked!

First, we take the color coded District map above and draw a nice big dividing line through it ... like so ...

Everyone see what I did there?
Anyone have a problem figuring out what I'm about to say next?

What I was proposing was having:

  • NINE Hospitals (3 for each of the 3 Alignment axes) NORTH of the line.
  • NINE Hospitals (3 for each of the 3 Alignment axes) SOUTH of the line.
  • Total number of Hospitals for the entire City of Titans: --> 18 <-- (9 north, 9 south)

How many Hospitals would a PC be able to make use of at any given time? THREE of those NINE (north/south), depending on whether the PC was north or south of the dividing "line" of the river/bay running through the middle of the city (so the water is the "real" dividing line).
So if you're north of the dividing line, you can use 3 of the 9 northern Hospitals to rez at.
If you're south of the dividing line, you can use 3 of the 9 southern Hospitals to rez at.
Which 3 of the 9 you can use depends on your Alignment on each of the 3 Alignment axes (Law, Honor, Peace each rated in a low/mid/high categorization).

WHERE are those 9 Hospitals located north and south of the river/bay running through the middle of the city, you ask?
The correct answer is ... scattered around in different Districts north and south.

But there are 16 color coded Districts north of that line, and 18 color coded Districts south of that line you drew on the city map ... so does this mean there would be Districts without a Hospital in them using the system you've proposed, Redlynne?
To which the correct answer is ... YES, obviously. Each color coded District would have either 0 or 1 Hospital in it (never 2+), north and south of the river/bay.
Total number of Hospitals in the City of Titans ... 18 ... with 9 in the service area north and 9 in the service area south.
Of those 9 northern and 9 southern Hospitals ... specific PCs would only be able to make use of 3 of the northern and 3 of the southern Hospitals (depending on which side of the river/bay you get defeated), conditional upon where the PC has their Alignment set on the Law, Honor and Peace Alignment axes.

So instead of having 1 "universal" Hospital for "everyone" in every single zone/District (of which there are 34, so 34 Hospitals throughout the city) ... instead there would be only 18 Hospitals (9 north, 9 south) of which only 6 (3 north, 3 south) would be usable by a PC, further limited by whether the PC was defeated north/south of the dividing line of the river/bay running through the city. Exactly WHERE those 3 usable Hospitals are located north/south then becomes an interesting decision point for the Player when it comes time to rez at a Hospital (do I pick the one in NERD, Alexandria or Old Bradford that I have access to based on my Alignments so as to rez there, depending on where I need to go after rez to inform my decision as a Player for which one to pick?).

If Hospital services are provided by Supergroup Bases, then that would permit a 4th option, but the entrance door to the SG Base would then determine where the PC re-enters the shared game world (which is also a fixed location).

Tannim222 wrote:

I don’t know how to explain this any differently. we aren’t going to have a hospital for each renown in each district.

Good ... because literally NO ONE was asking for that.

If anything, I'm offering you a way to have an average of less than ONE Hospital per District (more like 0.5625 Hospitals per District north, and 0.5 Hospitals per District south, actually).
Even better yet, I was offering you a way to NOT have every defeated PC going to the same Hospitals based on Player choices influencing the selection of Hospitals to choose from before the Player makes a final decision about which Hospital to rez at.

I'm still left wondering why you're so firmly dug in and determined to prevent such a notional system from being used.
Or are you just that invested in wanting to make 34 cookie cutter Hospitals so you'll have 1 in each District that "everyone" in that District uses (regardless of Player choices or Path)?

Hospital services that are thematically attuned to the PC ... or so generic that there's NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever for anyone playing the game because One Size Fits All™.
You tell me which option makes for a more attractive gameplay experience.

Your turn.


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Ok Red, it is my turn.

Ok Red, it is my turn.
You have not really read anything I have posted.

The alignment axis are player-facing and only have an effect on the narrative of their Path.

The game works environment maps and locations are not designed around the alignment axis.

The world facing system that initially affects how the character is “perceived” is Renown.

The environments are not designed around Renown.

There will not be hospitals based on alignment or renown.

Each area has its own theme and any hospitals in those areas will be made in accordance with that theme.

No one is saying there can be only ONE hospital.
At the start of the game, for launch the interiors MIGHT have to be that way. We only have one person working on interior maps and it takes A LOT time to make unique interiors. But eventually all locations should be made to match the theme of their area.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

You have not really read anything I have posted.

Blatantly untrue, especially when I quote you directly (twice even!).
Try again.

Tannim222 wrote:

The alignment axis are player-facing and only have an effect on the narrative of their Path.

So ... the game tracks it, but not for anything else aside from a narrowed to the point of being blinkered application.
In other words, you have a resource on hand that you refuse to find additional uses for.

Tannim222 wrote:

The game works environment maps and locations are not designed around the alignment axis.

Interpretation: ... and if you (Tannim222) have any say in the matter, that's a permanent Feature™ that will never be questioned, challenged or changed.

Tannim222 wrote:

The world facing system that initially affects how the character is “perceived” is Renown.

The environments are not designed around Renown.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
You could do it ... but you won't.
You've made that VERY clear.

Tannim222 wrote:

There will not be hospitals based on alignment or renown.

You could do it ... but you won't.
You've made that VERY clear.

Tannim222 wrote:

Each area has its own theme and any hospitals in those areas will be made in accordance with that theme.

So thematics are LOCATION based, not CHARACTER based.
You don't go to the place most congruent with your CHARACTER (wherever that might be), you just go to the nearest place to where you got defeated ... and WHO you are makes no difference whatsoever.
Dishonorable Villains go to the exact same hospitals as Honorable Heroes ... and that's not a problem of narrative nor game design for you.

Tannim222 wrote:

No one is saying there can be only ONE hospital.
At the start of the game, for launch the interiors MIGHT have to be that way. We only have one person working on interior maps and it takes A LOT time to make unique interiors. But eventually all locations should be made to match the theme of their area.

/em shrug
Well, I tried to convince you do to something "cool" with your game and you have adamantly refused ... repeatedly ... to even consider the possibilities.
It's hard to help someone so determined to not be helped at all.

To me, it looks like you're rejecting the option out of hand so as to remain steadfastly wedded to as boring and generic an implementation as you can possibly get away with ... even if it means you need to create 34 Hospital locations instead of merely 18 (of which only 9 need to be created and duped at the bare minimum).
Have fun stormin' the beta test reviews.


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First of all, Redlynne,

First of all, Redlynne, Tannim222 is game mechanics design. I don't think he has much say about how many hospitals and their design will be in the game. He's probably just repeating what he's been told.

Second, the alignment system as currently being implemented is broken from everything I can tell. It seems to be just a vestigial holdover from when it was imagined to be something more. We've gone around and around on the inadequacies of the current implementation of alignment ad nauseam here and here and other places.

This is in one of my posts from 2018 and I think it bears repeating:
(in response to a post from Tannim222 regarding how we can create our alignment by decisions we make in missions):

Quote:

You state that what Player A does on a mission doesn't affect what happens to player B if and only if player B chooses to not accept it. That means that player B would have to run the mission another time in order to take credit for their own choices. You actually state that. I have no problem with that. In fact I like that.

But here's what I don't like:
I don't like the fact that we play the first mission completely clueless about how our teammate will make choices and that we HAVE TO run it another time before we move along the mission arc. Why? Because the game made sure we were ignorant.
As a player, I would have liked the option of knowing that the leader of the party is a non-violent pacifist and will make happy unicorn friends will all the opponents. All I want is blood, blood, and more blood because combat is almost as much fun as indescriminate killing. I just got my nuke power and I want to try it out.

And don't make the argument that we should discuss it first. Because we will have no idea what alignment choices will be impacted in particular missions. And if we do have to discuss alignments before starting a mission, it will be far easier to scan my prospective team leader, see that he's a pacifist, and then use that information to have a discussion about how it will go. If we can't come to a copacetic agreement, then I can make a decision about whether I want to run it twice or just go on my own. But at least knowing puts the agency on me.

So here's how I see the game system working:
After some time when players have to redo mission after mission in order to get the alignment shifts they desire, the recruitment chat window will be full of people looking for violent and non-violent, honorable and dishonorable, and lawful and unlawful parties. Either that or people will just forget about making parties and resign themselves to going solo so they don't have to repeat content all the time. You know it as well as I do. Remember this post after the game has been out for a month.
By the way, I see this happening whether we make alignments visible or not.
So, in my opinion, it would make far more sense from a game design perspective, that you give people the ability to look at each other and quickly see that they are compatible and send party invites that way.
Another solution would be to somehow make alignment a mentionable in the Looking for Party app and allow PCs to self-identify.

So while I applaud your attempt to bring other uses for alignment into the game to aid immersion, I feel that using the alignment system is a poor choice for your effort. I don't think any two people in MWM even have the same idea about how alignment system should be implemented and I predict they'll get rid of it entirely before long.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

First of all, Redlynne, Tannim222 is game mechanics design. I don't think he has much say about how many hospitals and their design will be in the game. He's probably just repeating what he's been told.

Second, the alignment system as currently being implemented is broken from everything I can tell. It seems to be just a vestigial holdover from when it was imagined to be something more. We've gone around and around on the inadequacies of the current implementation of alignment ad nauseam here and here and other places.

This is in one of my posts from 2018 and I think it bears repeating:
(in response to a post from Tannim222 regarding how we can create our alignment by decisions we make in missions):

Quote:

You state that what Player A does on a mission doesn't affect what happens to player B if and only if player B chooses to not accept it. That means that player B would have to run the mission another time in order to take credit for their own choices. You actually state that. I have no problem with that. In fact I like that.

But here's what I don't like:
I don't like the fact that we play the first mission completely clueless about how our teammate will make choices and that we HAVE TO run it another time before we move along the mission arc. Why? Because the game made sure we were ignorant.
As a player, I would have liked the option of knowing that the leader of the party is a non-violent pacifist and will make happy unicorn friends will all the opponents. All I want is blood, blood, and more blood because combat is almost as much fun as indescriminate killing. I just got my nuke power and I want to try it out.

And don't make the argument that we should discuss it first. Because we will have no idea what alignment choices will be impacted in particular missions. And if we do have to discuss alignments before starting a mission, it will be far easier to scan my prospective team leader, see that he's a pacifist, and then use that information to have a discussion about how it will go. If we can't come to a copacetic agreement, then I can make a decision about whether I want to run it twice or just go on my own. But at least knowing puts the agency on me.

So here's how I see the game system working:
After some time when players have to redo mission after mission in order to get the alignment shifts they desire, the recruitment chat window will be full of people looking for violent and non-violent, honorable and dishonorable, and lawful and unlawful parties. Either that or people will just forget about making parties and resign themselves to going solo so they don't have to repeat content all the time. You know it as well as I do. Remember this post after the game has been out for a month.
By the way, I see this happening whether we make alignments visible or not.
So, in my opinion, it would make far more sense from a game design perspective, that you give people the ability to look at each other and quickly see that they are compatible and send party invites that way.
Another solution would be to somehow make alignment a mentionable in the Looking for Party app and allow PCs to self-identify.

So while I applaud your attempt to bring other uses for alignment into the game to aid immersion, I feel that using the alignment system is a poor choice for your effort. I don't think any two people in MWM even have the same idea about how alignment system should be implemented and I predict they'll get rid of it entirely before long.

The alignment system isn't going anywhere. It was never-ever intended to be anything more than what it currently is, a tool that affects the narrative of your character's Path, giving your character's actions nuance and meaning within the context of that story.

Look, we have to work within our means. We have 1 person working on interior maps. We have a handful of dedicated people working on composition. We have 1 person working on environments (world maps). That 1 person making interior maps takes months to make a unique map. Heck, he has to brush up on his modelling skills because we need assets made for a map he is working on that don't exist elsewhere. There is already a huge workload on this one person's shoulders. Its easy to say "just add this". The implementation is very different. It wouldn't be realistic to keep piling on more work - that is increasing the scope of the launch landscape.

The same goes for our environment design. Environments already have their write ups. They already have a system for how they go about designing districts and maps. To go back and redo the district designs based on alignment or renown isn't realistic at this point.

I don't even really believe that a building should reflect alignments anyway. The alignment system is meant to be nuanced. It isn't just Honorable-Dishonorable, Lawful-Unlawful, Peace-Violent. But shades in between all those and meant to be taken as a whole. Right now, the realistic application is to apply the alignment narrative choices within the Path system. In the future, if we have a large writing team working full time, then we can look to expand upon it.

The core of the idea, that there be unique "flavored" locations within the game world that fit a variety of character concepts already exists in a manner of speaking. When we get to post-launch toward the south side of Titan City, there will be very different districts than what we already have shown or what is to come for the north side for launch.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I don't even really believe that a building should reflect alignments anyway.

I don't either. That's why I'd prefer they be based upon renown.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I don't even really believe that a building should reflect alignments anyway.

I don't either. That's why I'd prefer they be based upon renown.

The hospital system won’t be tied to Renown.

Maybe it’s best to think of “hospital workers” as a neutral faction - of which we have have some neutral factions already in the game. They don’t care who you are, only that you need medial attention. Hypocratic oath to the upmost degree.


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I mean... how would the

I mean... how would the 'ambulance' crew know which hospital to take you to anyway? Can't tell your renown by the way you look, your name, etc, so it doesn't really make sense to me to make hospital's anything but neutral. They told us we'll be able to rez at our base so that should satisfy anyone wanting a 'special' rez place IMO.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I don't even really believe that a building should reflect alignments anyway.

I don't either. That's why I'd prefer they be based upon renown.

The hospital system won’t be tied to Renown.

Maybe it’s best to think of “hospital workers” as a neutral faction - of which we have have some neutral factions already in the game. They don’t care who you are, only that you need medial attention. Hypocratic oath to the upmost degree.

The hospital workers might provide equal care to all patients, but when a known lawbreaker (read: vigilante) or worse (read: villain) is in a public hospital, they won't be checking out without handcuffs, and a hero would be leaving in a body bag for sure without a security staff sending all hospital workers through a full cavity search every time they enter the room.
And that doesn't even broach the subject of secret identities which must be protected. No, it makes far more sense that villains would have their own care system set up, and vigilantes would not be able to show their true identity in public either. Scoundrels have crossed too many people to trust their medical care to a public hospital and Heroes are on every villain's list for counting coup.
So, when you couple it with making more sense and the potential added awesomeness of renown-based immersion, the crowd cheers for renown-based hospital service. And since there's always the option of General Hospital for people who haven't established great renown, I think we have all the bases covered.

Dark Cleric wrote:

I mean... how would the 'ambulance' crew know which hospital to take you to anyway? Can't tell your renown by the way you look, your name, etc, so it doesn't really make sense to me to make hospital's anything but neutral. They told us we'll be able to rez at our base so that should satisfy anyone wanting a 'special' rez place IMO.

This is a good point until one realizes that we rez in the middle of an instance. It must be on-demand so I think we can presume the proper service is called. Besides, since the renown hospitals are a reward for having enough renown, it would seem to me that the a Life Alert® service would exist for when "I've fallen and I can't get up."


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

I mean... how would the 'ambulance' crew know which hospital to take you to anyway? Can't tell your renown by the way you look, your name, etc, so it doesn't really make sense to me to make hospital's anything but neutral.

The "ambulance crew" doesn't know (per se) ... mainly because it isn't "their" choice for where to send you.
Instead it's the Player's choice of where to send the PC to get a rez, limited to a few options (pick one).

When the Player chooses which Hospital they want to rez at, THAT decides "which ambulance crew" does the pickup and delivery (if you want to think of it that way).
Limit which options are available to choose from based on the individual details pertaining to a PC (hence the opportunity for alignment/renown to be brought into the selection menu of choices) and away you go.

Unless of course you've got a Mjölnir Hammer Big Red Crowbar keeping you pinned down someplace preventing you from getting a Life Alert evac.


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It’s reasons like this that

It’s reasons like this that some on the team wanted to do away with hospitals whatsoever. Just rez at the mission entrance or nearest “safe spot”
In the open word.

No defeat penalty. Practically zero time lost. No need to mid-fight rez barring a few extreme cases.

I had to go through multiple conversations explaining how a MedEvac was a good thing for the game in the fist place.

But sure, blame me for being horrible.

This is why I continue to wonder why I bother at all.

You know I asked once recently to do an AMA on game play and declined…


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

It’s reasons like this that some on the team wanted to do away with hospitals whatsoever. Just rez at the mission entrance or nearest “safe spot”
In the open word.

No defeat penalty. Practically zero time lost. No need to mid-fight rez barring a few extreme cases.

I had to go through multiple conversations explaining how a MedEvac was a good thing for the game in the first place.

Lack of a defeat penalty is a HUGE colossal mistake.
If there's no penalty or "cost" for doing something, then people are going to do it (because, why wouldn't they)?

Corpse running is good for ya, kid. It builds ... character ... and an aversion to faceplanting like a braindead moron.


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Heck, I remember when people

Heck, I remember when people would 'corpse run' on purpose, dashing off to Peregrine Island 'in the nude' as it were, at low-low levels.

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Dropping into this chat to

Hey everyone - just dropped in to check what's going on in the forums and saw this big discussion about hospitals. Tannim works on the gameplay planning part of this and I really can't weigh-in on the Renown discussion, but I thought I'd at least clarify some of the process I'm following for building the hospitals.

We have lore and maps that have been written up for quite some time now that provide some guidance to me about where some hospitals should go, and some of what they should look like. So I have been building them entirely lore-based up to this point. For instance, I built a hospital at Ephesus University that has an old Gothic structure at the front of the Hospital with a Gothic bridge into the University, but a modern area of the hospital is also built behind the historic structure as well. This is consistent with many historic hospitals that want to keep their old buildings and architecture aligned with the historic university, but want to expand with modern facilities in a separate wing. This is just one of the hospitals - The lore calls for other specific hospitals in the City as well, like Spindell Hospital in Aurora. The concepts for these hospitals have been drafted based upon the neighborhoods they reside in, not really in consideration of heroes vs villains being taken into the hospital.

I am in the process of building additional local health centers, health clinics etc. throughout the city, so that missions and player interactivity at 'hospitals' can be accessed at locations throughout the city. Our lore team hasn't written very specific lore about what these health centers should look like, but I'm envisioning them having a smaller footprint than large hospitals because (like most cities) you can have one or a few big hospitals, but then local clinics can be much smaller and serve different populations. These health centers certainly need to be consistent with each neighborhood where they are built, as Tannim mentioned. That said, I think there is some room for creativity around what some of these health centers might look like. In fact, I already built a kind of sketchy dentist's office in Olympia that I thought might be fun for villainy happening there, so while we may have some health spots that are somewhat standardized (as most cities do), it also seems like there could be room for some more creative health centers that fit more with villainous/heroic themes...

I liked these ideas from Huckleberry:

"the Hero renown hospital would be bright white, a special high tech hospital with very high security and that has facilities to cater to any type of super being.
the Villain renown hospital would be an underground facility with cybernetic and monstrous staff and even some coerced staff whose families are being held to assure compliance. The fear that first appears on our attendants' faces should give way to relief that we are better.
the Vigilante hospital would be a back alley chop shop served by a single overworked doctor and a few other volunteers with hearts of gold. Anesthesia is a luxury they just can't afford, except for the 100 proof kind.
the scoundrel hospital would be a luxurious mahogany and velvet affair in some mansion somewhere with nurses that look they came from a halloween costume catalog."

Again, I can't say anything about how renown would relate to any hospitals, but let me think about those ideas and see if I can create some stuff that would fit those themes...can't see any reason not to build some of them this way, as long as they are consistent with the lore of the neighborhood. (So, back alley chop shop might go well with dive areas of Downtown... luxurious mahogany affair maybe in Aurora, a bright, white hospital with a futuristic look would go with NRD...etc.).

I'm always interested in ideas for building architecture in the city - as long as people know I can't promise exactly what people are suggesting, but maybe if the concept fits, I can do something pretty close...

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

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Like I said, the exteriors

Like I said, the exteriors will work with the theme of the district. I’m glad Red Warlock can use some of the ideas for locations.

As for interiors, I wouldn’t expect too much variation unless we get more assets that work with them or mor people to work on interior design.


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Red Warlock, it seems like

Red Warlock, it seems like you're willing the meet us somewhat halfway on the different characteristics of hospitals based on their renown (Hero, Villain, Vigilante and Scoundrel). Even if they are not ever actually tied to the character's renown, it would still be pretty cool if the hospitals had a renown association of their own. The content creation teams could have a field day with that.
-So in one district everyone goes to a scoundrel's hospital, any character who's not of a scoundrel renown owes the proprietor a favor as part of the cost for the service. This favor could play out as a restriction in dialogue options for some later mission that involves that proprieter's organization. Can you imagine when a hero has to let a bad guy go in the mission dialogue options because they owe him a favor? What a unique death penalty!
-Or maybe in another district everyone goes to the hero's hospital and anyone not a hero gets some assistance in the form of a remote hacker to escape before they get arrested by the hero standing outside their recovery room door. This hacker then gets a favor owed that can play out much the same way: restrict or enable certain dialogue options that aids the hacker in a later mission. OR maybe these non-heroes get an extra mission a day later in server time to save the hacker or the hacker will put a substantial lien on their In Game Currency. Either the character accepts the mission and saves the hacker or they lose a good chunk of IGC.
-Everyone resurrecting at a vigilante-style hospital would suffer a performance penalty due to the pain and disorientation of recovery unless they use a special consumable every five minutes for the next hour of gameplay. The consumable would be provided free by the hospital as part of the resurrection service.
-Everyone who's not of villain renown who revives at a villain hospital could have much the same deal as with the hacker. They're told they're going to be ransomed or something, but instead of a hacker it is an undercover officer of Titan City Vice posing as hospital staff. They would get a mission later to rescue that officer when his or her cover is blown or they have to help the agent save another "hero" NPC who was in the same boat later.
(edit: someone who has too little renown in any would either suffer every penalty or none, or maybe they just pay a blanket service fee. Such a character paying a blanket fee for every hospital means that someone with a renown that matches a hospital actually gets that service for free as one of the rewards for having that renown.)

In other words, we can still ensure players' characters experience the repercussions of their renown without having to tie where a player revives to his or her renown or make more hospitals than MWM is currently planning.
As an added bonus we get a narrative death penalty that consists of even more immersion. Win Win, I think.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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A death penalty should have

A death penalty should have an equal result on the character because if one death penalty affects certain renowns more than others, or certain characters more than others, the penalty actually affects those players more than others.

I can tell you this in no other way, we won't be implementing a hospital that requires only a specific renown or specific alignments for them to function for the character.

The only death penalty we are having in the game is the time lost from not earning rewards and the loss of any bonus of reward should the defeat occur in a mission. I have had too many hours long conversations with others on the team to get this as the settled result. I had plenty of other ideas I was more in favor of my own which I had to "let die" just to get this. As the game play lead, I won't be going back to those same people and rehashing things again for multiple days.

We are way past the point of pre-production where these things are decided and moving forward with the game design.

Until we get to testing in a larger scope and see what works and what doesn't work. Then when we see what doesn't work, we can hopefully revisit those ideas and analyze why they don't work and look over possible solutions.


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I am saying that your ideas
Huckleberry wrote:

Red Warlock, it seems like you're willing the meet us somewhat halfway on the different characteristics of hospitals based on their renown...

To be really clear, I am saying that I like your ideas for different types of hospitals / health centers for the neighborhoods. It helps inspire me to think about different ways to make hospitals interesting. I like the idea that if you are playing a hero, villain, vigilante or scoundrel, there would be some hospital facilities that fit your character theme. So, I'm going to try to find some ways to incorporate those ideas into the architectural development for our neighborhoods.

I have absolutely nothing to say about 'renown' stuff because that is not my area of expertise...

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Huckleberry
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Red Warlock wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Red Warlock, it seems like you're willing the meet us somewhat halfway on the different characteristics of hospitals based on their renown...

To be really clear, I am saying that I like your ideas for different types of hospitals / health centers for the neighborhoods. It helps inspire me to think about different ways to make hospitals interesting. I like the idea that if you are playing a hero, villain, vigilante or scoundrel, there would be some hospital facilities that fit your character theme. So, I'm going to try to find some ways to incorporate those ideas into the architectural development for our neighborhoods.

I have absolutely nothing to say about 'renown' stuff because that is not my area of expertise...

Yep. i think you were pretty clear. I was just thinking of a way to piggyback on the fact that we might be getting some hospitals that COULD be associated with a renown and then dial that train of thought up to 11 with awesomeness.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Red Warlock, it seems like you're willing the meet us somewhat halfway on the different characteristics of hospitals based on their renown...

To be really clear, I am saying that I like your ideas for different types of hospitals / health centers for the neighborhoods. It helps inspire me to think about different ways to make hospitals interesting. I like the idea that if you are playing a hero, villain, vigilante or scoundrel, there would be some hospital facilities that fit your character theme. So, I'm going to try to find some ways to incorporate those ideas into the architectural development for our neighborhoods.

I have absolutely nothing to say about 'renown' stuff because that is not my area of expertise...

Yep. i think you were pretty clear. I was just thinking of a way to piggyback on the fact that we might be getting some hospitals that COULD be associated with a renown and then dial that train of thought up to 11 with awesomeness.

Awesome - if we can find a way to incorporate the creativity you all are envisioning, I'll always try to do it.

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

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Also, I'm not against places

Also, I'm not against places in the game world were factions are for or against certain Renowns. There will be places a hero can't go or won't be able to use while other places where they can go that a villain can't use. That is a large part of what Renown is for - determining how factions "perceive" and act / react to your character.

When it comes to hospitals and the death penalty - death penalties are more a psychological tool to use on the player through the play of their character. In order to implement "renown-based hospitals" we would have to make sure they are equal in nearly every way throughout the game world. Otherwise, certain Renowns could end up more adversely affected than others, creating disparity. This, in essence, is us as developers telling a player "you are dumb for picking this renown because you will earn less rewards over time than any other renown".


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
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Red Warlock wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:

I liked these ideas from Huckleberry:

"the Hero renown hospital would be bright white, a special high tech hospital with very high security and that has facilities to cater to any type of super being.
the Villain renown hospital would be an underground facility with cybernetic and monstrous staff and even some coerced staff whose families are being held to assure compliance. The fear that first appears on our attendants' faces should give way to relief that we are better.
the Vigilante hospital would be a back alley chop shop served by a single overworked doctor and a few other volunteers with hearts of gold. Anesthesia is a luxury they just can't afford, except for the 100 proof kind.
the scoundrel hospital would be a luxurious mahogany and velvet affair in some mansion somewhere with nurses that look they came from a halloween costume catalog."

You and me both.
It makes perfect sense for the exterior of the facility to "blend in" with its surroundings so as not to stand out (too much).
However, once you get past the Location, Location, Location factor ... it's really prudent to start thinking about what sorts of "customers" will tend to be norm showing up on the doorstep (or in the morgue), and how to "tailor the feel" of that facility (although perhaps not the architecture, but more the staff) to better match the kinds of neighborhoods being serviced.

This is why I was so keen on the Alignment axes, rather than using Renown.
Presumably the Peace-Low (meaning Violent!) Hospital would be receiving lots of gunshot wounds, burn trauma, broken bones, improvised explosives victims ... you get the idea, the proverbial "war zone" type of atmosphere for a Hospital. So the most logical thing to do would be locate that Peace-Low facility in a part of the city that has lots of violent crime going on, including street battles (both mundane and magical) over turf and so on. It's a way to tie the whole thing together ... architecture, lore, setting, context ... so it all Just Feels Right™ when you put it all together.

Note that in this context, the Peace-Low area and Hospital serving it would be in a violent part of town and they wouldn't "care" all that much whether you're a Hero or a Villain (so long as you're a pretty Violent kind of Hero or Villain yourself) and don't mind being brought back to life via what MASH used to call "meatball surgery" to save lives.

Contrast that context with a Law-Low area where the police are "wanted men" where the gangs have taken over and everything is protection racketeering. So long as you don't let "the law" stop you from doing what needs to be done ... Hero or Villain (or Vigilante or Scoundrel) ... your "insurance" is good enough for them. The whole operation (no pun intended) would have a business front (controlled by powerful "protectors") with the real medical work "hidden in the back" like some bizarre mashup between a medical facility and a speakeasy in the days of prohibition. Out front, the place looks like nothing special ... but behind the secret entrance, there is the finest medical facilities and staff that money can buy off. Needless to say that Law-Low Hospitals will tend toward Villains more than Heroes, but there are plenty of Heroes (and anti-Heroes) who have no problem stepping on the law (and due process) because the ends justify the means (and all that good stuff), so they would be "welcomed" at a Law-Low Hospital for rez services.

... and so on and so forth.
Basically draw on the surroundings to inform the details of the Hospital that is set there.

Red Warlock wrote:

I'm always interested in ideas for building architecture in the city - as long as people know I can't promise exactly what people are suggesting, but maybe if the concept fits, I can do something pretty close...

Not expecting firm commitments or concrete promises.
Simply being open to entertaining the notion of drawing from more than one source of inspiration is enough of a promise to keep the flame of belief and loyalty in the project (and the staff) alive.

Huckleberry wrote:

Red Warlock, it seems like you're willing the meet us somewhat halfway on the different characteristics of hospitals based on their renown (Hero, Villain, Vigilante and Scoundrel). Even if they are not ever actually tied to the character's renown, it would still be pretty cool if the hospitals had a renown association of their own. The content creation teams could have a field day with that.

/em knowing look

Huckleberry wrote:

-So in one district everyone goes to a scoundrel's hospital, any character who's not of a scoundrel renown owes the proprietor a favor as part of the cost for the service. This favor could play out as a restriction in dialogue options for some later mission that involves that proprieter's organization. Can you imagine when a hero has to let a bad guy go in the mission dialogue options because they owe him a favor? What a unique death penalty!
-Or maybe in another district everyone goes to the hero's hospital and anyone not a hero gets some assistance in the form of a remote hacker to escape before they get arrested by the hero standing outside their recovery room door. This hacker then gets a favor owed that can play out much the same way: restrict or enable certain dialogue options that aids the hacker in a later mission. OR maybe these non-heroes get an extra mission a day later in server time to save the hacker or the hacker will put a substantial lien on their In Game Currency. Either the character accepts the mission and saves the hacker or they lose a good chunk of IGC.
-Everyone resurrecting at a vigilante-style hospital would suffer a performance penalty due to the pain and disorientation of recovery unless they use a special consumable every five minutes for the next hour of gameplay. The consumable would be provided free by the hospital as part of the resurrection service.
-Everyone who's not of villain renown who revives at a villain hospital could have much the same deal as with the hacker. They're told they're going to be ransomed or something, but instead of a hacker it is an undercover officer of Titan City Vice posing as hospital staff. They would get a mission later to rescue that officer when his or her cover is blown or they have to help the agent save another "hero" NPC who was in the same boat later.
(edit: someone who has too little renown in any would either suffer every penalty or none, or maybe they just pay a blanket service fee. Such a character paying a blanket fee for every hospital means that someone with a renown that matches a hospital actually gets that service for free as one of the rewards for having that renown.)

In other words, we can still ensure players' characters experience the repercussions of their renown without having to tie where a player revives to his or her renown or make more hospitals than MWM is currently planning.
As an added bonus we get a narrative death penalty that consists of even more immersion. Win Win, I think.

Whoa there, Huckleberry ... you're getting WAY out over your skis there.
I'm going to have to align myself with Tannim on the idea that "death penalty mechanics" need to be uniform for EVERYONE.
You can't have different Renowns incurring different game mechanics after a defeat ... that's an absolute (and obvious) recipe for disaster from a game balance standpoint. Why? Because it is IMPOSSIBLE to perfectly balance differing death penalty game mechanics. The Players will ALWAYS find a way to exploit those differences to their advantage (no matter how small), so the best possible solution is to NOT have any differences in Hospital services performance.

So limiting choices after a defeat, if that's applied universally, that's okay.
If the only choices being limited is happening during Rooks missions, then the obvious exploit is to not do any Rooks missions until the duration of the "debuff" limiting your options expires.
And guess what, that kind of game mechanic would require integration with Mission design, scripting and specifications (which would be a HUGE can of worms to reopen).
So, nice idea ... but I shudder to think of the devouring of scarce resources (time, tools, tech manuals) needed to integrate and implement it.

Indeed, the closest I would actually want to get to a "lingering effect" of being defeated and rezzed at a Hospital would be something akin to the way that people on the street would say things after a PC completed a Mission in CoX. You exit a Mission Door and sometimes the nearest NPC would say something about the Mission you just finished. Expand that idea into NPCs on the street getting lines of dialogue to say after your PC has been defeated ("Your reputation precedes you Mr. Faceplant.") so as to make it look like even civilians on the street know that you fought and lost ("Oh look, it's old Asphalt Face, NOT cleaning up the streets again."). Note that such a system would have NO GAME MECHANICAL IMPACT whatsoever ... it would just be NPCs saying stuff in close enough proximity for the PC to (over)hear.

Tannim222 wrote:

A death penalty should have an equal result on the character because if one death penalty affects certain renowns more than others, or certain characters more than others, the penalty actually affects those players more than others.

Agreed.
Death penalty game mechanics should be equal for all PCs.
Doing any differences in the game mechanics invites disaster.

Tannim222 wrote:

We are way past the point of pre-production where these things are decided and moving forward with the game design.
Until we get to testing in a larger scope and see what works and what doesn't work. Then when we see what doesn't work, we can hopefully revisit those ideas and analyze why they don't work and look over possible solutions.

Train has already left the station folks, nothing to see here.
We should have been talking about these things ~6 years ago now if we wanted to make a difference "now" ...

Red Warlock wrote:

Awesome - if we can find a way to incorporate the creativity you all are envisioning, I'll always try to do it.

Keeping an open mind about the issue is pretty literally the best that we can hope for.
When it comes to creativity, not all sources of it are particularly timely (or even necessarily self-evident).
And sometimes you have to make a mistake before you figure out what wasn't already clear to you before making the mistake.

Experience is a hard teacher, it gives the examinations first and provides the lessons after.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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Red Warlock wrote:
Red Warlock wrote:

I am saying that I like your ideas for different types of hospitals / health centers for the neighborhoods. It helps inspire me to think about different ways to make hospitals interesting.
So, I'm going to try to find some ways to incorporate those ideas into the architectural development for our neighborhoods.

Here's an easy one for you.
Remember Hospitals in City of Heroes?

Bright, shiny, clean, well maintained ...

Now imagine that same hospital facility with gang graffiti sprayed all over it.
Graffiti marking the hospital as being the territory of the Rooks and whichever factions are your versions of Hellions and Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls.

Even if the building architecture is an exact duplicate of a facility in another part of Titan City, the graffiti spray painted all over the building will mark this facility as being "very different" from the facility that is kept immaculately clean.

Other things that can be done to differentiate a "standard" building design in different locations is ... landscaping around the building itself.
For instance in NERD, a Hospital could have extensively (and expensively!) landscaped grounds around the hospital building proper ... including a number of synthetic hybrid genetically modified botanical products donated from the Crey Industries analog in Titan City (combining charity donations with backdoor advertising of their botanical products). In this case, the landscaping around the building would set it apart from other facilities in other districts.

I could go on, but I figure I've made my point how you don't necessarily need to reinvent the wheel for every single hospital in the city, necessarily.
Same building, different context, can work just as well ... although, obviously, the more changes you incorporate the greater the differentiation.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I could go on, but I figure I've made my point how you don't necessarily need to reinvent the wheel for every single hospital in the city, necessarily.
Same building, different context, can work just as well ... although, obviously, the more changes you incorporate the greater the differentiation.

So, 're-skinning' the basic hospital building? Possibly even only projecting that change to the character, based on whatever criteria are being tracked? I remember, in the Incarnate missions, instances would change, depending on what the character had done.

Be Well!
Fireheart