I would like to suggest that Unicode be allowed in our characters' names. There are a number of reasons for and against it, and I'll try to give a quick rundown of a few points for the sake of discussion.
[b]Pros[/b]
[list]
[*]Grants players more creative freedom in their choice of name
[*]Allows for the correct spelling of many non-English names
[/list]
[b]Cons[/b]
[list]
[*]Difficult to type on a standard QWERTY keyboard
[*]Enables players to bypass language or copyright filters
[/list]
In my opinion, both pros are compelling reasons in favor of allowing Unicode. Many players from around the world may like to choose a name befitting their own language or nationality, or perhaps a specific language or nationality is part of a character's concept. It could also allow for "alien" names that are comprised of glyphs that represent some extraterrestrial moniker. I feel that this kind of creativity is worth preserving.
On the other hand, this also opens the door for various forms of abuse. Obnoxious players would have more ways to advertise their favorite curses and expletives. It also makes names protected by copyright harder to detect which could potentially create liability for MWM. It also presents some difficulty for typing names since the common QWERTY keyboard is only made for ASCII characters and requires arcane "alt codes" to produce exotic characters.
I think that being able to report names could help alleviate a lot of foul language and copyright issues. Being able to copy and paste names would help with entering the name into chat or game client commands. My opinion is that the creative freedom afforded by Unicode outweighs the pitfalls.
What do you think?
...
P.S.: I know there have been a few other threads touching on this subject, but I thought it best to create a thread specifically for this topic rather than necro an older, tangentially related thread.
Well, no argument with the pros. As for the cons:
[i]Difficult to type on a standard QWERTY keyboard[/i]
Well, what are you going to do? You'll have the same problem typing them in on any system with a qwerty board. But for people it is important to, they will look up the needed alt codes and go to town.
[i]Enables players to bypass language or copyright filters[/i]
I don't think this is really much of an issue. Yes, they could theoretically bypass an automatic filter, But how long will they be running around with that name before being reported? And once a GM gets a look at it, that unique spelling can be added to the filter list
But beyond that, since the game is going to be supporting French, German, and Spanish clients, we will need unicode names regardless of any cons.
-----------------------------------------
I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
I'm going to come down in favor of Unicode. A listing of codes with instructions on how to use them would mitigate the first con, at least a bit, and adding a step in the filtering software that converts the letter to its closest visual equivalent (U+012F would be i, for instance) before checking against the filters would cover the second, although I'm not sure how easy that would be.
At the very least, I think it is worth looking into.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
.
Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
I'm all in favour, BUT, I suggest programming the system to accept alternate characters as "normal" ones. E.g., "Résumé" be the same as "Resume", and "Bon Biére" the same as "Bon Biere". This solves both con's: "motherfucker" and "motherfúcker" would also be equivalent (whether or not we should allow cussing is another discussion), same for "The Hulk" and "The Húlk".
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
I agree with this, although some languages have equivalents which might confuse (o with an umlaut in german is normally shown as oe if no umlaut is present).
I have some names in NW with accents on, I never used unicode, I just copy/pasted them in from elsewhere.
Personal opinion, any standard alphabet based names should be OK, cyrillic/oriental/hebrew alphabets are not as most people can't read them quickly.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Meaning Latin Alphabet :p
I agree, anything more than accents, umlauts, etc. is more time than it's worth I think.
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
about the only unicode characters I know off by heart is the ÁÉÍÓÚ (ctrl+alt+Letter) range. I am not sure what the c with a squiggly line under it is as a shortcut. Oh and ™ I know off by heart.
The other thing to consider is the *legibility* of these letters as well in the font that you are using ingame. Ideally you want as *little* confusion between them as possible, and not have to think "is that an I or a l or a Í or a í being used? Or is a piece of dirt on my screen. Also, how the hell do I type that?"
Although with a good range of right click functionality can help remove that limitation as well.
As far as I am aware, Wildstar actually uses the unicode system, so that the version with all special characters and the basic "non special" characters can be used to communicate in whispers/tells/invite to team etc.
Downside: élephant is the same as eléphant which is the same as elephant, which is the same as éléphant. So you cannot be unique just via special characters.
Yes, but Names are going to be associated with Accounts, so the only one you'd be in competition with, for 'uniqueness', would be Yourself, so I don't see this as much of a problem.
Be Well!
Fireheart
It might be a good idea to make the global account name be just ASCII number, letters capital and lowercase, case sensitive, but English only and no other symbols, then liet the toon name be a little more free, using unicode. Is that even possible?
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Can't imagine why not, and I agree, Globals should be simple.
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
True.
I was more trying to say that the game would treat all the various versions as the same, and WE the user would end up treating the versions as the same, especially if I could send a message to élephent@firehart and it would still go to the correct person even if eléphent@firéhart was online. Hell, even elephent@firehart would work just as well.
Because ALL of those would actually be "the same person". Treating the "baseline" version as the main identifier here is the important thing, so if anything the special characters are more for "flavour" rather than the "unique" identifier.
And yes, I do mean that even if you tried to have "firéhart" as a global name, every variation of it for "special characters" would still end up with "firehart" being the "baseline" version.
Downside: You couldn't have multiple characters on the same account with the same name using accents as the unique identifier. Well you could, but that could mean a different mail system (more account based rather than character based) one.
In keeping with the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle]K.I.S.S. principle[/url] I'm actually slightly against the whole idea of using unicode for names in games like this.
I don't have a problem with things like simple umlauts and accent marks. But are we going to limit it to things like that or would we be able to use any unicode characters including the graphical "dingbats" as well? Just seems like more potential trouble than it's worth having to filter/parse it all out.
If games like Wildstar have a workable way to do it then maybe some of my concerns here may be unfounded. At any rate I might be more comfortable with the compromise of allowing unicode for character names but keeping global account names ASCII only.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
To be honest, I don't feel like I need Unicode characters for names all that much, but then I'm from Murrica, where we don't need no steenking accent marks. If people in different areas would find that really helpful, then I'm okay with it for their sakes.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I am in favor of allowing.. filters are smart enough now and programmable
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Here's the allowable characters I propose:
0020-003B,003D,003F: Punctuation and numerals.
0041-005A: A-Z
005F: _ (underscore)
0061-007A: a-z
00A1, 00BF: ¡ and ¿
00C0-00CF: modified A's, I's,E's, and Ç
00D1-00D6: Ñ and modified O's.
00D9-00DD: Modified U's and Y's.
00E0-00EF: modified a's, e's, i's, and ç
00F1-00F6, 00F9-00FD, 00FF: modified o's, u's, y's, and ñ.
Maybe:
03B1-03B3, 03C0: α, β, γ, π,
Source: http://unicode-table.com/en/
Wow, unicode is HUGE!
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
Yeah as I said earlier I could probably agree to some limited set of unicode like this.
Exactly. For what it's worth I don't really want to see people running around with names like "₪◄Œ╟¥☺⅞".
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
For the players who [i]have[/i] to decorate their names, I find that preferable to xXxFredxXx.
This guy's actual name would be ╟. The rest is presumably silent.
Full Unicode considers cyrillic, chinese, korean, hungarian, hebrew, arabic, etc. etc. I hate to be extra-canmerican but we'll have to stick to the latin alphabet.
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
U+0394, Δ
I NEED IT!
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I don't mind seeing the heart symbol but I'd never use it for my name. I will be Cute Kitsune@Cute Kitsune. I honestly think if my Account name and Character name match it should just list it as @Cute Kitsune to avoid Redundant@Redundant says Do you think my name is Redundant?
The line between knowing and understanding is often blurred.
Cute Kitsune the Anti Villain of Phoenix Rising.
I have more fervor then empathy, I still like you.~Me to a friend
It applies here too, I'm passionate not hostile.
If you guys want to use stuff like that in chat then go for it. I actually had a few unicode graphics characters keybound in CoH to make it easier to slip into my chats. I just don't want to see graphics-type characters being used in people's names. None of us here are as cool as Prince...
[img=100x120]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/af/Prince_logo.svg/204px-Prince_logo.svg.png[/img]
or at least as cool as he was when he was "the artist formerly known as" Prince.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Where did you learn to say latin alphabet instead of roman? When you say latin alphabet to me (having studied latin in high school) I think of the 23 letter classical latin alphabet.
-----------------------------------------
I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Well to be fair.. Δ is for my guild. Not just for me.
Who doesn't love the greek alphabet? They make GREAT insignia
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I was aware the current letters "J", "U" and "W" we use today were only added to the "western" alphabet during or after the middle-ages. Despite that it would seem that most people call the modern 26 letter alphabet we use today the "[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_script]latin alphabet[/url]". I imagine as with most things the term "latin" applying to the classic Roman Empire 23 letter alphabet only has to be accepted when talking in a historical context.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The Greek alphabet's fine for what it is. But much like character names I really wouldn't want to see supergroup names full of non-ASCII weirdness. I'm sure you'd use your delta responsibly, but there would be others who'd just toss out a bunch of semi-graphical nonsense like my previous unicode character name example. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Its an ISO thing.
Flex :ᕦ(°Д°)ᕤ
Bearflex :ᕦ( ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ )ᕤ
Table flip :┻━┻ ︵ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ︵ ┻━┻
Song Flex:♫♪♬ ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ ♩♫♪
Some of my commands in my IRC client do the above, and they are pretty much "channel specific" for the people in there. These are "speedrun" related. Yeah, Unicode can do some funky stuff... even if it isn't always easy to implement.
And the full Unicode set has emoji implemented in it now.
Yep like I said before I don't care what anybody uses in chat. I just don't want to see that kind of thing usable as part of proper names.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'd simply always known the 26 letter alphabet used in English as the "latin alphabet".
What's "ISO"?
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
The [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Organization_for_Standardization]International Organization for Standardization[/url] sets the global scientific and industrial standards for all sorts of things, including in this case unicode definitions.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'll agree that it should be pronounceable (even if incorrectly) by anyone who can read the Latin script. So,
accents, umlauts, cedilla, and other diacritics used in languages that use the Latin script should, IMHO, be permitted.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
.
Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
I had only ever heard it called the roman alphabet before the CoT forums. even the Japanese refer to the alphabet as "romaji", so I know this is not just a south east PA thing like the hoggie.
-----------------------------------------
I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Like I tried to say before I would think the term "roman" and "latin" could be fairly interchangable when talking about things like this. I'm not claiming that one is "more right" than the other, just saying that the word "latin" is very commonly used in this context for modern-day language references.
Think of it this way - the only reason why we use the term "[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages]ROMANce languages[/url]" is because they are all LATIN based. Same difference all in all.
P.S. For all we know the reason why the Japanese preferred to use the term "romaji" is due to their relative trouble with foreign words with "L" in them. Not trying to make a joke out of this - just pointing out the reality of the situation.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
There is a simple solution for it. The Unicode tables do not only define lotsa glyphs, but also canonical decomposition forms for each character. So 'â' will be dereferenced as 'a' + '^'. This can be used to reduce a given string to only containing the base character. Eventually further limited to accept only the 26 basic latin letters. If this is done whenever a name is entered (caracter creation, name in a tell, etc.), checks can be performed regardless of what 'fancy' markings are added. Thus not only people without special keyboards could do a /tell but also all checks agains 'unwanted' names during character generation can be done easy.
Think of it as 'add-on insensitive' compare (like case insensitive :).
People will still have their favorite ä-Umlaut in their name without any influnce on usability.
This not only works on Latin, but on Greek, Cyrillic and several other letter based scripts as well. Ofc, there are a few caveats like with singletons or precomposed ligations, but in this context they can be ignored.
I've been working on Unicode implementations (low level and server, not just using some lib) since the early 90s, so if there are quesions about the implementation, I might offer some hints.
If this is done there really is not much of a point to all those accented characters is there?
Though it would be amusing, to say the least, to have heroes with names in e.g. Kanji or Islamic script
With a name like that you are all but guaranteed to be playing solo. Nobody is going to be able how to figure out how to invite you to a team.
But, if that is what they want, that's fine by me. I am not going to insist that anybody has a name that must be easily pronounced and typed by me.
It would indicate the character is named in a language other than English, and if the person reading the name cares enough to do some research they might find out how the name is supposed to be pronounced, and if they don't, at least they can come close.
Non-Latin based scripts might be a bit far, as those who don't know the script would have no (or very little) idea of how to pronounce it. Although I have thought about [font=Lucida bright]AIko[/font] rendering her [I]nom du cape[/I] as [font=Lucida bright]AI[/font]子...
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
.
Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
Actually if you put a LFT message out or appeared on searches, they could invite you by clicking your name in CoH without having to type it, importantly (I remember the barcode IDs spamming abuse) you could also report them that way. I hope (no special knowledge here) we'll have the same functionality.
I listen to a load of Hungarian Music, and cull some names from there like Téli ének (winter song), where é is pronounced like the vowel sound in pay and the e is pronounced as in egg. Similarly a is pronounced as a short o as the English would pronounce "of" (not the american ahv) whereas á is pronounced more like the American o ie "ah". I like to get these correct, and also in some languages, the word without the accent means something else, so it's necessary to get the sense of the name.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I'm all for people's freedom to name their characters whatever they'd like, at least to a certain point. For what it's worth I would admit that there's probably a fine line between what most people would generally consider "reasonable" and what the vast majority would see as "being silly just for silly's sake".
If a person wants to come up with an interesting reason why they'd want to use a string of unintelligible gibberish as a name (like say they're an alien and their name is technically unpronounceable by humans) then that might be fine as a one-off novelty. But there's a definite difference between using an occasional unicode â or é for emphasis and again just being excessively silly with it.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Tóûçℏè
If we had to regulate it we could I'm sure:
Simple solution: limit of 3-5 non-Standard characters.
Smarter solution: limit of 3 for Standard : non-standard characters. E.g., Até, ratio =3, étré, no.
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
the problem with that is that you just get back to all the xX étré Xx type names to beat the second rule
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I do believe we can not have both freedom of using unicode and stop the misuse of it without restricting it too much. I for one feel that those limitations would make no sense. It would restrain creativity and archieve nothing. Those who want to make silly names will do that. There will be uncountable names consisting of badly hidden abusive language or copyright infringements anyway. And to me it does not make any difference which tools are used to archieve it. 'Sp1d0rm4n' is as bad as 'Spîdérmän' for me...
A easily done report- option and a few GMs who then take care of those things would work better in my opinion.
I agree with this. Arbitrary rules around what you can and can't use in your name may stifle creativity while still not preventing abuse. I personally disagree with systems designed to prevent abuse that punish legitimate users in doing so (e.g., DRM encryption). I won't get on my soapbox about it, but I agree with Lutan.
If anything, perhaps it might be worthwhile to consult the [url=http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/category/index.htm]Unicode character categories[/url] for characters that are considered letters. Java's [url=https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/lang/Character.html#isLetter-int-]Character.isLetter(int)[/url] method is based on these categories. The "letter" categories are [i]very[/i] inclusive and should cover any name written in just about any language in the world.
Still, whitelisting only letters might prevent other legitimate names. I'm in favor of leaving it wide open and letting the players and moderators police the game.
Obviously people are going to abuse any new feature given to them. People are going to come up with semi-silly names like 'xX étré Xx' or 'Spîdérmän' if the game allows the use of unicode characters. And I'd agree we don't need "arbitrary" rules like limiting the number of unicode characters used in names to specific numbers. As pointed out people will just figure out dumb ways to get around rules like that too.
My main point is that if unicode characters are allowed for names in CoT they probably ought to be limited to just the "character" based ones instead the "graphical/symbolic" type ones. That's not really much of a limitation on creativity because that would still provide literally hundreds of new characters to use that CoH didn't allow for.
Again I don't really mind people using things like 'Spîdérmän' if they really want to. Those could just be policed away by the GMs as mentioned. I just don't want to see super-silly ones like my earlier '₪◄Œ╟¥☺⅞' example. I hope you guys can see the difference I'm trying to point out here.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yes, I can see the difference, Lothic. And I think I see what bothers you about '₪◄Œ╟¥☺⅞' -like names. It has no meaning or intention, just senseless gibberish. And this really is annoying, I feel the same way.
But on the other hand I would like to point out that the same would apply to 'Dfghjkl', for example. And I have seen a lot of names like that. For something like '₪◄Œ╟¥☺⅞', you would at least have to look up the symbols and put some effort in it, instead of just banging your head on the keypad a few times. Again, not much gained by banning the more symbolic unicode characters, is there? Or is there something else that bothers you about those super-silly unicode names that I did not get?
As far as I am concernded, I would not need unicode much. But if someone wants to create a financial themed character named '$a£€$man', a robot named '(a|c∪|a+or' or something like that, I see no reason to forbid that.
Actually the benefits of banning the graphical/symbolic unicode characters would be far more substantial than just how subjectively "annoying" they may be to you and me. Some of the more weird/esoteric characters may actually be hard to render in different fonts and would likely cause other unforeseen spacing and formatting problems with the chat/text functions of the game. I'd hate to see the Devs have to waste time trying to make sure every one of the thousands of off-the-wall graphical/symbolic unicode characters don't crash and/or otherwise mess up the game just for the sake of making sure every single one of them could be used in names.
Frankly sticking to the more traditional nongraphical unicode characters would still give CoT names many more options than CoH allowed for without going overboard just for the sake of allowing "total freedom" with it. Simply put there are some categories of unicode out there that would be far more trouble than they'd be worth if they were allowed in any character names of any game.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Good point. I confess I do not really know how such things can affect the formatting, so I was only considering the aesthetic aspect of the problem.
Certainly access to full unicode for character names and chat would not be worth it if they mess up the schedule.
I'm a H8r, and if someone wants to stitch "XXX0000EEEEEEEE" to a name making ""XXX0000EEEEEEEE Mé EEEEEEEE0000000XXXXXXX", and make a mess of a simple name for a special character, I say fine :p
I really hate "xXx [name] xXx" type names.
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
If it were up to me I'd definitely prefer that CoT include some Unicode support, not only in names but also the chat window, and I'm sure a lot of players would welcome localized versions of the game content, menus etc. But there is definitely merit to Lothic's point about all the different characters not necessarily working well together visually, so sticking to a manageable subset of Unicode is probably essential.
It's also something of a can of worms as many glyph sets bring with them writing conventions that aren't necessarily trivial to implement, e.g. if you can use Arabic glyphs somewhere in the game then you might expect players to request that you support typing them right to left instead of left to right. And then there's Kanji input by typing syllables as Latin characters, and then mixing all that with Hiragana, Katakana and English, etc. As a programmer I can attest to the nightmare that supporting every possible language and associated method of writing can easily become.
I'm not saying that you'll necessarily need to implement these features for the sake of having more exotic toon names, but regardless of where you draw the line, I imagine it's important that you do draw one and make it clear where that line is.
Just my two cents added. Whichever way you decide to go with this I'm sure I'll enjoy the game more or less the same.
I agree that there are names for which you should be able to have an 'autoignore' macro.
RegEx Filter? ;D
Auto-ignore Palindromes?
Be Well!
Fireheart
Indeed, some still harbor the anti-palindrome sentiments of the 1950's. [url=http://phineasandferb.wikia.com/wiki/Professor_Ross_Eforp]Professor Ross Eforp[/url] may never be able to show his face again.