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THE ULTIMATE Classification and Specification Chart

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TTheDDoctor
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THE ULTIMATE Classification and Specification Chart

Greetings, honored reader! A lot of you came over here because the title sounds like something big and important is here. Others came over here because it sounds like I'm renovating the Classification and Specification chart on a whim. You would be correct in either case.

You see, eliminating restrictions and giving power and pwnage to the player is all about what the gameplay is supposed to be in CoT, and I noticed how painfully annoying it was in CoX trying to make the hero of my dreams when I can only choose from two groups of powersets in any given archetype. Why blast people from afar when you can't select a defensive power to survive the return fire? Why tank enemies to death when you can't lock them down so you don't get overwhelmed? And furthermore, why summon only 6 minions as a Master when you can have two Pet powersets and summon an entire freakin' army?

Because I had several hours to kill, an overactive imagination, and enough epic-sounding titles rattling around in my skull to fill in every block, (Blunderbuss, what the hell was I thinking?) I decided to update the Classification and Specification Chart so that every possible powerset combination can be chosen by users. I assumed that it shouldn't be that big of a pain to program since all the developers have to do is create a new category, copy and paste powersets/masteries from different groups, and move on to the next one like it's another day at the assembly line. In the event that it's too much of a pain to implement, however, then know that I sympathize with you and promise that many more donors will show up from this alluring proposal.

So, what do you say?

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Lothic
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It's cool that you've come up

It's cool that you've come up with some interesting name suggestions for the "blanks" in the Classification and Specification chart. It's always possible some of these will be used eventually.

But there's at least two things to consider from this. First is that the Devs will put a priority on getting the "non-blank" combos/powersets done first. Any additional ones beyond that will definitely come some time after launch. More importantly though there will likely be many of these combos (like your example of a "Mastermind" with two pet powersets) that'll never happen due to various game balance reasons. Some of the currently blank combos would likely be hopelessly underpowered (like the "double Defense" combo which would have practically no way to defeat enemies) while others would be relatively overpowered (like any of the doubled-up Offense combos).

Again I realize that having "blanks" or restrictions on powerset combos may be somewhat annoying or even strange. But the reality is that they'll more than likely never fill in all the blanks on this chart with playable classes.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

It's cool that you've come up with some interesting name suggestions for the "blanks" in the Classification and Specification chart. It's always possible some of these will be used eventually.
But there's at least two things to consider from this. First is that the Devs will put a priority on getting the "non-blank" combos/powersets done first. Any additional ones beyond that will definitely come some time after launch. More importantly though there will likely be many of these combos (like your example of a "Mastermind" with two pet powersets) that'll never happen due to various game balance reasons. Some of the currently blank combos would likely be hopelessly underpowered (like the "double Defense" combo which would have practically no way to defeat enemies) while others would be relatively overpowered (like any of the doubled-up Offense combos).
Again I realize that having "blanks" or restrictions on powerset combos may be somewhat annoying or even strange. But the reality is that they'll more than likely never fill in all the blanks on this chart with playable classes.

I noticed that. It would appear that some powerset combos are absurdly OP/UP, and based on your reply is most likely the sole reason they may never see the light of day. Of course though, there are other factors that go into archetypes/classifications/specifications/etc than powersets alone. On CoX, for example, some archetypes granted your toon more HP than others. Tankers started with 120HP and Masterminds had 95HP.

Applying that variable, the OP Pet/Pet archetype you mentioned wouldn't have much need for more than 80-90HP, the double-Offense archetypes (excluding the Melee/Melee one) would start with about 90HP, and the double-Defense archetype- being a stone wall or what-have-you- would do well in his/her/its role by starting with 130-150HP.

Another important thing to consider is exactly how OP/UP an archetype is. For the sake on continuity, let's go back to the Pet/Pet archetype, the "Overlord." While having an army of minions may initially seem OP, it also has its drawbacks. Unlike the Engineer, you can't heal and buff your minions and allies, meaning they're essentially an army of underlings versus a small crew of elite bodyguards. Once an enemy with a few AoE powers comes along, the only way to avoid a group wipe is to drastically reduce the recharge rate of the Overlord's minion summoning abilities, and even then they still can't get jacked with buffs. A few Leadership and Medicine power pools may be able to correct this, but even they are inferior to Support powers. The whole archetype is a double-edged sword, which depending on how it's played can be really awesome or pretty useless.

Then there's the Damage/Damage crowd of archetypes. Seeing the Dominator's performance in CoX, it's safe to say that offensive power doesn't mean anything if your opponents can end you with the poke of a finger. While having a wide array of offensive powers may be useful in the early game so you don't have to wait on recharging for the next big alpha-strike, it later becomes redundant and more about trumping opponents with a rainbow of damage types from different offensive powersets, which is still cold comfort if for all your might the mobs are still bearing down on you. The Melee/Melee "Berserker" is in an even worse plight since s/he doesn't even have any long-ranged punch, so the only offset would be to allow the Berserker to start with at least 100HP like every other melee class.

The final example used, the Defense/Defense "Immortal," is not so much UP as it is an archetype with an entirely different playstyle. In solo games, the Immortal is a gradual grinder who soaks up literally everything thrown at him while his tanker auras, power pool attacks, and Brawl power slowly disintegrate his/her emaciated opponent. When working in a team, the Immortal acts as the ultimate meatshield, using his tanker auras to pull all the mobs to him/her while everyone else sits back and nukes his/her assailants. If coupled with staying at the front of the pack and being given a base archetype Threat Level of 1000, then the Immortal could very well be an indispensable doom magnet.

Your points were all very educated, though the CoX devs already had game mechanics in place to easily correct and justify every possible playstyle. It's up to us to properly harness them.

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AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

Your points were all very educated, though the CoX devs already had game mechanics in place to easily correct and justify every possible playstyle. It's up to us to properly harness them.

I suppose given enough time and cleverness the CoT Devs might be able to figure out how to make just about any of these extreme combos "playable" to some degree. We already see (on the original chart) that they're considering at least several new combos that didn't exist in CoH (like the Commander Executor that I'm personally interested in).

But once again I'll stress that these truly extreme combos, if they happen at all, will likely only happen well after launch and even then I suspect making some of them fully playable would not be as "easy" as you imply. For instance I doubt they would ever consider the "doubled-up" combos (like a double pet or a doubled ranged offense) to ever be viable for all sorts of game balance reasons. For all we'd know they might even arbitrarily disallow those doubled-up combos just to force our powersets to be diversified for meta-gaming roleplay reasons.

Bottomline I won't go so far as to claim the extreme combos are impossible code-wise. I just think they'd be very hard to implement properly and thus are very improbable even in the long run. Merely tinkering with things like starting HP values isn't nearly enough to "balance" these out. For what it's worth there are reasons some of these extreme combos didn't exist in CoH and I feel they're the same reasons they won't exist in CoT either.

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Lots of good points, Lothic.

Lots of good points, Lothic. I'm personally really excited for the Warden and Vindicator combos. Something I really enjoy in WoW right now is that the monk healer class is melee healing. I look forward to other game classifications putting the buffer/debuffer in melee. Unfortunately even those two are not slated for launch. One thing that is interesting about those extremes though is that they are almost balanced in requiring team play being explicitly unsoloable. Then the remaining balancing comes from making them viable and not OP in a group, letting the hyper-extreme classes. I think really though the only one that works out of the gate is the defense/defense. With double-pets the best balancing I can think would be to make the pets half as durable since there's twice as many. With melee, well... there's only so many powers you can hit in a given minute with any rotation or global cooldown (activation time+power animation+recharge) and the lack of any defenses is barely a step past the glass-canon blasters. Even so, it may be easy to balance them within a class comparative, but in the team dynamic a double controller or a double buffer would nullify what options they would really provide in the balancing.

Perhaps if they were Epic classes or unlocked classes to guarantee players wouldn't be overwhelmed right out of the box when/if they get implemented? Still, pretty cool theorycraft.

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summer-heat wrote:
summer-heat wrote:

Perhaps if they were Epic classes or unlocked classes to guarantee players wouldn't be overwhelmed right out of the box when/if they get implemented? Still, pretty cool theorycraft.

Yeah I could see a few of these "extreme" combos being offered as epic/unlockable classes for experienced players with plenty of built-in warnings that they would be highly specialized and unlikely to function well in "average" gameplay situations. Basically it'd be somewhat tragic if a new player was allowed to play one of these extremely specialized, non-standard classes and got a bad experience from not being able to handle the semi-weird playstyle you'd need to make them work.

So again to be clear I think it might be possible for SOME of these "unusual" combinations to work given that it's made clear that they'd only be worthwhile for dedicated players willing to put up with the extreme playstyles required. But having said that I still think there are other combos on the chart that would be so extreme that they wouldn't be viable even in that limited context.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Bottomline I won't go so far as to claim the extreme combos are impossible code-wise. I just think they'd be very hard to implement properly and thus are very improbable even in the long run. Merely tinkering with things like starting HP values isn't nearly enough to "balance" these out. For what it's worth there are reasons some of these extreme combos didn't exist in CoH and I feel they're the same reasons they won't exist in CoT either.

Lothic wrote:

So again to be clear I think it might be possible for SOME of these "unusual" combinations to work given that it's made clear that they'd only be worthwhile for dedicated players willing to put up with the extreme playstyles required. But having said that I still think there are other combos on the chart that would be so extreme that they wouldn't be viable even in that limited context.

If the extreme combos are so subject to crippling overspecialization, then they probably wouldn't be game-breakers. I can see how many of them are infuriatingly difficult to master and can wind up as joke archetypes for newcomers, but which ones did you think would be inviable regardless of tactics and why? I'd like to know more.

Also, why would balancing HP/etc not come close to balancing them? If we're talking about OP combos, we could scale it down to a hilariously tiny 10HP, thus ensuring their godlike power comes with the price of being a one-hit wonder. If we're we're talking about UP combos, we can go up to infinity with HP until they're balanced. Please elaborate.

Also, if it suits your fancy then I will graciously write up a number of guides for these absurd combos so it's actually viable to play as them. I have a fine idea on how each of them could be awesomely implemented...

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HP in that extreme sense is

HP in that extreme sense is only as viably balancing as long as there's a lack of buff/debuff on the team. By that standard, a heal/shield forbearance guardian wouldn't be very concerned with only having 10 HP because he is shielded to insane numbers and what little damage does make it through is immediately healed. Applying that to the entire team, it's easy to say this one class could change the tactics for a team balanced to 8 that's expecting such support to come at the cost of 2 party slots, plus a tank or 2, leaving only 4 dps. to get that out of 1 changes the balance of enemy throughput against the players and the player throughput against the enemy for current progression. couple that with say, a stone/dark immortal stalwart and that tank will probably never die without so much reduction to both the forbearance and the immortal that it's not viable even in a group setting and worse than impossible outside of that.

Its not so much balancing one class on the chart against another class, it's also balancing the synergies of that class with other classes and ensuring that no singular class combination is so game-breaking that it needs a hotfix nerf just to counter a massive wave of FoTM and everyone short-cutting difficult content. There are some great ideas, but I think because of synergies no one class can be singled out as a reason alone to not put it in, save for the overlord, tribunal, or vanguard.

overlord because too many pets would equate to the swarms of fire imps I used to see waltz through things
tribunal because too much control + pets would equate to the swarms of fire imps I used to see waltz through things
Vanguard because if enemies have to get through both a mess of pets AND a tank it's too OP in pvp and survivability (even with very low HP) would be too high to balance effectively without making the class nearly unenjoyable: pets would be so squishy and defense would be literal foam padding in comparison.

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Here's a chart that's been


Here's a chart that's been edited to show what's "official" and what's not. Green is ONLY on the chart above; blue is the "official" chart.

Just in case it makes things easier for non-visual-spacial people like me :p


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<-- color-blind

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Idk how much of an issue this

Idk how much of an issue this type of thing is, but what about combos that could have the same power twice. (Assuming a powerset map of 9 tiered powers like in CoH.) In overlapping combos, e.g. Scourge (Rng/Rng), Demolisher (Rng/Asl), Blunderbuss (Asl/Rng) (I disagree with the name),and Crisis (Asl/Asl), could each have two "fire blasts", or whatever. A way to get around this would be to have the secondary ranged attack be different than the first, but it's still a thought.

I agree with @AlbusUUmbra that any combo could be legitimate, but some should be limited to experienced players/ Epic Classes/Specifications. The exceptions may be the ones @Summer-Heat noted (though tribunal might be okay); maybe the pet specification seems unnecessary, pets should be the primary theme.

That brings up the question, where do we draw the line for Epic Archetypes? I'd always thought One 50 (or 30 in this case) was too little for something as complex as a kheldian, and is certainly too little for someone to try out a support/support or Defense/Defense character. And maybe maxing a character out is a silly line, a level 45 (or 25-27) isn't a whole lot more experienced and capable than a level 50 (or 30). So maybe multiple high level characters; one needs to get 5 level 25s or 4 level 27s, idk.

Another Idea is a Badge or Achievement or Accolade that tracks the Grand Level Total of an account. Depending on how many character slots could be had, it might be wise to track levels past 10 or something, just so people won't make 50 level 5 characters then be considered veteran enough to try an Immortal or Forbearance. Having a Grand Level of 100 (3 30s, 10; 4 25s; 5 20s. 6 15s, 10; etc. or better 5 30s, 5 25s, 20; 2 30s, 4 25s; etc.). That way the line doesn't seem so fine.


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summer-heat wrote:
summer-heat wrote:

HP in that extreme sense is only as viably balancing as long as there's a lack of buff/debuff on the team. By that standard, a heal/shield forbearance guardian wouldn't be very concerned with only having 10 HP because he is shielded to insane numbers and what little damage does make it through is immediately healed. Applying that to the entire team, it's easy to say this one class could change the tactics for a team balanced to 8 that's expecting such support to come at the cost of 2 party slots, plus a tank or 2, leaving only 4 dps. to get that out of 1 changes the balance of enemy throughput against the players and the player throughput against the enemy for current progression. couple that with say, a stone/dark immortal stalwart and that tank will probably never die without so much reduction to both the forbearance and the immortal that it's not viable even in a group setting and worse than impossible outside of that.
Its not so much balancing one class on the chart against another class, it's also balancing the synergies of that class with other classes and ensuring that no singular class combination is so game-breaking that it needs a hotfix nerf just to counter a massive wave of FoTM and everyone short-cutting difficult content. There are some great ideas, but I think because of synergies no one class can be singled out as a reason alone to not put it in, save for the overlord, tribunal, or vanguard.
overlord because too many pets would equate to the swarms of fire imps I used to see waltz through things
tribunal because too much control + pets would equate to the swarms of fire imps I used to see waltz through things
Vanguard because if enemies have to get through both a mess of pets AND a tank it's too OP in pvp and survivability (even with very low HP) would be too high to balance effectively without making the class nearly unenjoyable: pets would be so squishy and defense would be literal foam padding in comparison.

I've heard of entire teams of Defenders or Masterminds in CoH whose powerset combos were comparable to a rolling nuclear barrage, so if that can be callously introduced into the game (with the Defender's spiritual successor being in the CoT release, mind you) then it's probably nothing more than a tactic that the devs are begging us to exploit. If an inviable lineup comes along, you can always adjust the NPC level or tell the team to impose a challenge on themselves, and anyone who objects gets kicked. If the team leader isn't a munchkin, then just sit back and enjoy the challenge. (or lack of XP debt, depending on the OP/UP'ness of the lineup) You may freely discriminate on who gets to go on missions with you.

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Well, THAT backfired horribly! XD

desviper wrote:

Idk how much of an issue this type of thing is, but what about combos that could have the same power twice. (Assuming a powerset map of 9 tiered powers like in CoH.) In overlapping combos, e.g. Scourge (Rng/Rng), Demolisher (Rng/Asl), Blunderbuss (Asl/Rng) (I disagree with the name),and Crisis (Asl/Asl), could each have two "fire blasts", or whatever. A way to get around this would be to have the secondary ranged attack be different than the first, but it's still a thought.

Well, that's the jewel of it. You can pick two entirely different powers for variety or zero in on something you are comfortable with. If you pick 2 of the same powerset, then you've basically cut the recharge time in half. Useful up until you realize how badly you've narrowed yourself. It can be useful depending on your playstyle, or it can be a detriment. It all depends on the player.

desviper wrote:

I agree with @AlbusUUmbra that any combo could be legitimate, but some should be limited to experienced players/ Epic Classes/Specifications. The exceptions may be the ones @Summer-Heat noted (though tribunal might be okay); maybe the pet specification seems unnecessary, pets should be the primary theme.
That brings up the question, where do we draw the line for Epic Archetypes? I'd always thought One 50 (or 30 in this case) was too little for something as complex as a kheldian, and is certainly too little for someone to try out a support/support or Defense/Defense character. And maybe maxing a character out is a silly line, a level 45 (or 25-27) isn't a whole lot more experienced and capable than a level 50 (or 30). So maybe multiple high level characters; one needs to get 5 level 25s or 4 level 27s, idk.
Another Idea is a Badge or Achievement or Accolade that tracks the Grand Level Total of an account. Depending on how many character slots could be had, it might be wise to track levels past 10 or something, just so people won't make 50 level 5 characters then be considered veteran enough to try an Immortal or Forbearance. Having a Grand Level of 100 (3 30s, 10; 4 25s; 5 20s. 6 15s, 10; etc. or better 5 30s, 5 25s, 20; 2 30s, 4 25s; etc.). That way the line doesn't seem so fine.

Yeah, I can see that being implemented if it calms everyone down.

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AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Bottomline I won't go so far as to claim the extreme combos are impossible code-wise. I just think they'd be very hard to implement properly and thus are very improbable even in the long run. Merely tinkering with things like starting HP values isn't nearly enough to "balance" these out. For what it's worth there are reasons some of these extreme combos didn't exist in CoH and I feel they're the same reasons they won't exist in CoT either.

Lothic wrote:
So again to be clear I think it might be possible for SOME of these "unusual" combinations to work given that it's made clear that they'd only be worthwhile for dedicated players willing to put up with the extreme playstyles required. But having said that I still think there are other combos on the chart that would be so extreme that they wouldn't be viable even in that limited context.

If the extreme combos are so subject to crippling overspecialization, then they probably wouldn't be game-breakers. I can see how many of them are infuriatingly difficult to master and can wind up as joke archetypes for newcomers, but which ones did you think would be inviable regardless of tactics and why? I'd like to know more.
Also, why would balancing HP/etc not come close to balancing them? If we're talking about OP combos, we could scale it down to a hilariously tiny 10HP, thus ensuring their godlike power comes with the price of being a one-hit wonder. If we're we're talking about UP combos, we can go up to infinity with HP until they're balanced. Please elaborate.
Also, if it suits your fancy then I will graciously write up a number of guides for these absurd combos so it's actually viable to play as them. I have a fine idea on how each of them could be awesomely implemented...

I've simply played (and run) enough computer and pen-n-paper games over the last few decades to have a sense that if you're having to go to such hyperbolic extremes in order to try to get classes like these to fit within a given game system then there's something fundamentaly wrong with what you're trying to do.

Again I think you're seeing this chart as something that needs to be "completely filled" with classes just for its own sake without regard to the fact that there are at least some combos on it that would be so horribly skewed that it wouldn't just be a matter of "shoehorning" them into the game to get them to work from a game mechanics point of view but they'd be either seriously boring or highly tedious to play because they really could effectively do nothing without a highly contrived teaming scenario. You yourself mention that many of them would be "infuriatingly difficult to master" - what makes you think that quality is a good selling point for having them in the game at all?

Bottonline there's no law or rule that says EVERY one of the combos on this chart must be filled in or must be accounted for with some kind or representation in the game. I've already accepted that there are a number of the combos you've proposed that might be viable assuming the Devs ever want to spend the time to provide them. And while you may have "fine ideas" about how the rest of the extreme combos might work I seriously doubt that alone would convince the Devs to spend time on them. I stand firm to my position that they will never get around to providing ALL of them because some of them would simply be far too radical to work under any reasonable circumstances.

If you noticed back when you first started working on this the original chart had some slots that were completely blank (such as Control/Melee and Defense/Ranged) but had other slots that had lines through them (like Ranged/Ranged and Assault/Control). It's clear the Devs had already given some consideration about which comobs might be "possible" versus which ones they'd probably never focus on at all due to all sorts of reasons. While I still think what you did with the chart was an interesting exercise in completionism I once again highly suspect many of these will never happen.

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

Well, that's the jewel of it. You can pick two entirely different powers for variety or zero in on something you are comfortable with. If you pick 2 of the same powerset, then you've basically cut the recharge time in half. Useful up until you realize how badly you've narrowed yourself. It can be useful depending on your playstyle, or it can be a detriment. It all depends on the player.

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

Yeah, I can see that being implemented if it calms everyone down.

I suspect you've overestimated the useful aspects of this while underestimated the detriments. It's not a matter of "calming everyone down" over this, it's a basic matter that I'm not convinced you understand that while some of your combos might be workable it doesn't mean they ALL would be, or even should be.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

I've heard of entire teams of Defenders or Masterminds in CoH whose powerset combos were comparable to a rolling nuclear barrage, so if that can be callously introduced into the game (with the Defender's spiritual successor being in the CoT release, mind you) then it's probably nothing more than a tactic that the devs are begging us to exploit. If an inviable lineup comes along, you can always adjust the NPC level or tell the team to impose a challenge on themselves, and anyone who objects gets kicked. If the team leader isn't a munchkin, then just sit back and enjoy the challenge. (or lack of XP debt, depending on the OP/UP'ness of the lineup) You may freely discriminate on who gets to go on missions with you.
Yeah, I can see that being implemented if it calms everyone down.

Two things I want to address here:

1) I have not interpreted anyone's reaction as hostile or heated or anything that would need to be calmed down. Nor have I been upset by anything stated here.. Suffice it to say, I'm already calm when approaching this because I do enjoy this outlet and topic of theorycraft as conceptual game balance designing. Please, don't take anything I'm posting in this thread that I need to calm down? Thank you. I recognize that forum posting only gets the written word and not the tone or voice of the writer and I have misinterpreted and reacted badly in my own posting history. To expect we need to be calmed down doesn't produce a friendly forum to discuss and work through a discussion.
Do I disagree with EVERYTHING you're saying? absolutely NOT. I also don't agree with everything either, but I didn't think your job as original poster was to convince everyone you were right. I thought it was to open a discussion about your ideas that you wanted to share, and we as other forum posters are offering our feedback. If you'd rather not let us offer feedback I'll be happy to let this thread die and go off to the cornfield. I like a lot of the ideas and hope some of them do eventually make it into the game. I'm interested in pointing out my concerns with some of the extreme combinations that would be most problematic first...
Segue
2) The idea that a team could be 8 defenders or 8 controllers and mow through content like a nuclear barrage was a gross flaw in the original CoH design process (see earlier post about fire imps). In my opinion that I would voice to MWM I advise strongly against allowing for team makeup to skirt by the challenging content without calling on some team role/class diversity.
In comparison to what I'd expect such a balancing to achieve I'm going to compare the 8 defenders to 4 white mages on Final Fantasy I. As a gameplay option it is quite possible and allowed, but it is much harder than some other possible combos and certainly not something a starting player would try without knowing it was a challenge. The flaw being that they could without knowing the challenge entailed and was not entirely expected by the game designers. Similarly, I haven't heard of 4 black mages or a team of 8 blasters doing the same thing, placing the imbalance in how effective support classes were.
If CoT is going to allow for a full team of Guardians (which I fully expect/hope/respect that choice), I hope they acheive some basic balancing to make it harder for a full team of support toons than a more diverse team that includes a stalwart or two, some guardians, some hunters, and some others to round it out.

As with any class that is possible and will be introduced, I strongly believe the devs will require it has to be fun in at least 80% of the content playable (preferrably 90-100%), or the return on invested time and programmer effort is probably not worth it to even design less implement and maintain. With the 5 classes I've picked out already, the UP classes literally cannot solo any soloable content, and the OP classes make teaming an easy mode with high reward that breaks content pacing right out of the gate. To expect the devs to implement them might burden them with an even greater investment and cost to work through all the possible min/max to ensure those are not OP, UP or even generally UP and situationally WAY-OP. I hope that MWM will not be as callous when glossing over a possible balancing issue in basic fundamentals of the world at 1.0. I don't think Cryptic so much expected/wanted us to exploit that as they hadn't considered just how players would try to break expectation. To bring that 8-defender-team allowance into context, Cryptic also expected us to be diverse in our enhancement selection and realized the only way to do that was to force us to diversify. I'm far from the first to say there are some design flaws with CoH that will not be continued into CoT, and I hope team synergy balancing is one area that is better addressed. Only then could many of these cool combinations be considered without breaking game content and mechanics.

I remember Babs was totally surprised a Hami-raid recovered from a wipe by having a TA defender toss out an oil slick so a dark defender could cast howling twilight. Just another example of why team synergy should be considered with a heavier weight...

If the double-defense and double-support classes DO make it in, more power to those players that choose to play it. It probably won't be easy and it certainly won't be soloable. As for gating it, maybe require that they level up 2 stalwarts and defenders of different types to unlock the respective double class option? That way the player should be expected to know at least two styles and would show ability to level them up...
To unlock at an account-wide level I don't think would be a good idea because after 20 L5 toons I barely know any class but I can unlock some epic AT that expects I know some finer concepts of gameplay.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I've simply played (and run) enough computer and pen-n-paper games over the last few decades to have a sense that if you're having to go to such hyperbolic extremes in order to try to get classes like these to fit within a given game system then there's something fundamentaly wrong with what you're trying to do.

Well, a compromise is a compromise. If something extreme comes along, an extreme counterbalance is needed. Then again, it may not be if they're not as extreme as you think. There's only so much that mere discussion, debate, and speculation can deduce, after all.

Lothic wrote:

Again I think you're seeing this chart as something that needs to be "completely filled" with classes just for its own sake without regard to the fact that there are at least some combos on it that would be so horribly skewed that it wouldn't just be a matter of "shoehorning" them into the game to get them to work from a game mechanics point of view but they'd be either seriously boring or highly tedious to play because they really could effectively do nothing without a highly contrived teaming scenario. You yourself mention that many of them would be "infuriatingly difficult to master" - what makes you think that quality is a good selling point for having them in the game at all?

For the same reason that most video games offer different levels of difficulty. Some people actually enjoy the challenge of playing on Hard or Insane Mode. I do not ask of you to appreciate that, but those of us who like it or are actually good at it will be more likely to pick up the game. In a way, the option appeals to an entirely new group of gamers. "Savor every penny," I say.

Lothic wrote:

If you noticed back when you first started working on this the original chart had some slots that were completely blank (such as Control/Melee and Defense/Ranged) but had other slots that had lines through them (like Ranged/Ranged and Assault/Control). It's clear the Devs had already given some consideration about which comobs might be "possible" versus which ones they'd probably never focus on at all due to all sorts of reasons. While I still think what you did with the chart was an interesting exercise in completionism I once again highly suspect many of these will never happen.

Hmm, I noticed that too. I'd love to hear the developers' reasons behind that.

Lothic wrote:

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
Well, that's the jewel of it. You can pick two entirely different powers for variety or zero in on something you are comfortable with. If you pick 2 of the same powerset, then you've basically cut the recharge time in half. Useful up until you realize how badly you've narrowed yourself. It can be useful depending on your playstyle, or it can be a detriment. It all depends on the player.

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
Yeah, I can see that being implemented if it calms everyone down.

I suspect you've overestimated the useful aspects of this while underestimated the detriments. It's not a matter of "calming everyone down" over this, it's a basic matter that I'm not convinced you understand that while some of your combos might be workable it doesn't mean they ALL would be, or even should be.

By "calming down," I was specifically referring to the rise of doubt that everyone has in the unworkable combos. You're not convinced that I understand, and I agree with that. I have no idea how exactly they could wrong when implemented right, and I may never grasp it on paper until somebody puts it into practice...

...Come to think of it, I think we should go Mythbusters on this and Beta-test these combos to determine which ones actually are inviable and which ones are just veteran-based.

summer-heat wrote:

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
I've heard of entire teams of Defenders or Masterminds in CoH whose powerset combos were comparable to a rolling nuclear barrage, so if that can be callously introduced into the game (with the Defender's spiritual successor being in the CoT release, mind you) then it's probably nothing more than a tactic that the devs are begging us to exploit. If an inviable lineup comes along, you can always adjust the NPC level or tell the team to impose a challenge on themselves, and anyone who objects gets kicked. If the team leader isn't a munchkin, then just sit back and enjoy the challenge. (or lack of XP debt, depending on the OP/UP'ness of the lineup) You may freely discriminate on who gets to go on missions with you.
Yeah, I can see that being implemented if it calms everyone down.

1) I have not interpreted anyone's reaction as hostile or heated or anything that would need to be calmed down. Nor have I been upset by anything stated here.. Suffice it to say, I'm already calm when approaching this because I do enjoy this outlet and topic of theorycraft as conceptual game balance designing. Please, don't take anything I'm posting in this thread that I need to calm down? Thank you. I recognize that forum posting only gets the written word and not the tone or voice of the writer and I have misinterpreted and reacted badly in my own posting history. To expect we need to be calmed down doesn't produce a friendly forum to discuss and work through a discussion.

A simple misinterpretation. You're not the first to look upon my posts with suspicion, and you most certainly will not be the last. Apologies all-around.

summer-heat wrote:

Do I disagree with EVERYTHING you're saying? absolutely NOT. I also don't agree with everything either, but I didn't think your job as original poster was to convince everyone you were right. I thought it was to open a discussion about your ideas that you wanted to share, and we as other forum posters are offering our feedback. If you'd rather not let us offer feedback I'll be happy to let this thread die and go off to the cornfield. I like a lot of the ideas and hope some of them do eventually make it into the game. I'm interested in pointing out my concerns with some of the extreme combinations that would be most problematic first...

Aye, I welcome criticism. Just as people approach me with critique and concern, I am also allowed to justify and discuss possible adjustments to my plans. We are both kind of telling the other that their ideas are flawed, and at the same time defending our own. That's the meat of discussing novel ideas, and I am more than willing to work with everyone to reach a sound conclusion.

summer-heat wrote:

2) The idea that a team could be 8 defenders or 8 controllers and mow through content like a nuclear barrage was a gross flaw in the original CoH design process (see earlier post about fire imps). In my opinion that I would voice to MWM I advise strongly against allowing for team makeup to skirt by the challenging content without calling on some team role/class diversity.
In comparison to what I'd expect such a balancing to achieve I'm going to compare the 8 defenders to 4 white mages on Final Fantasy I. As a gameplay option it is quite possible and allowed, but it is much harder than some other possible combos and certainly not something a starting player would try without knowing it was a challenge. The flaw being that they could without knowing the challenge entailed and was not entirely expected by the game designers. Similarly, I haven't heard of 4 black mages or a team of 8 blasters doing the same thing, placing the imbalance in how effective support classes were.
If CoT is going to allow for a full team of Guardians (which I fully expect/hope/respect that choice), I hope they acheive some basic balancing to make it harder for a full team of support toons than a more diverse team that includes a stalwart or two, some guardians, some hunters, and some others to round it out.
As with any class that is possible and will be introduced, I strongly believe the devs will require it has to be fun in at least 80% of the content playable (preferrably 90-100%), or the return on invested time and programmer effort is probably not worth it to even design less implement and maintain. With the 5 classes I've picked out already, the UP classes literally cannot solo any soloable content, and the OP classes make teaming an easy mode with high reward that breaks content pacing right out of the gate. To expect the devs to implement them might burden them with an even greater investment and cost to work through all the possible min/max to ensure those are not OP, UP or even generally UP and situationally WAY-OP. I hope that MWM will not be as callous when glossing over a possible balancing issue in basic fundamentals of the world at 1.0. I don't think Cryptic so much expected/wanted us to exploit that as they hadn't considered just how players would try to break expectation. To bring that 8-defender-team allowance into context, Cryptic also expected us to be diverse in our enhancement selection and realized the only way to do that was to force us to diversify. I'm far from the first to say there are some design flaws with CoH that will not be continued into CoT, and I hope team synergy balancing is one area that is better addressed. Only then could many of these cool combinations be considered without breaking game content and mechanics.
I remember Babs was totally surprised a Hami-raid recovered from a wipe by having a TA defender toss out an oil slick so a dark defender could cast howling twilight. Just another example of why team synergy should be considered with a heavier weight...

You make a nice argument. Some people dislike team imbalance. In fact, most people are irked by it. I respect that, but don't think it's right or wrong. All I can say for sure is that CoT was going to grant the player a lot of free will and basically make the game a little more sandbox, do the whole "team balancing" proposal of yours seems... well... out-of-sync with the devs' vision. I could care less if CoT goes full-on with it or not, so go ahead and send the idea out if you'd like.

summer-heat wrote:

If the double-defense and double-support classes DO make it in, more power to those players that choose to play it. It probably won't be easy and it certainly won't be soloable. As for gating it, maybe require that they level up 2 stalwarts and defenders of different types to unlock the respective double class option? That way the player should be expected to know at least two styles and would show ability to level them up...
To unlock at an account-wide level I don't think would be a good idea because after 20 L5 toons I barely know any class but I can unlock some epic AT that expects I know some finer concepts of gameplay.

Now you see, using experience like that is outright genius. I think that would easily implement such combos, even if their OP and UP bretheren are too absurd to even try compensating for. As for the rest, I believe that my earlier point in this post to Lothic regarding Beta-testing will make a suitable rite of passage. We'll know if the OP/UP classes are even worth making veteran content once they're put into practice.

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AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

Well, a compromise is a compromise. If something extreme comes along, an extreme counterbalance is needed. Then again, it may not be if they're not as extreme as you think. There's only so much that mere discussion, debate, and speculation can deduce, after all.

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

For the same reason that most video games offer different levels of difficulty. Some people actually enjoy the challenge of playing on Hard or Insane Mode. I do not ask of you to appreciate that, but those of us who like it or are actually good at it will be more likely to pick up the game. In a way, the option appeals to an entirely new group of gamers. "Savor every penny," I say.

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

Hmm, I noticed that too. I'd love to hear the developers' reasons behind that.

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

You're not convinced that I understand, and I agree with that. I have no idea how exactly they could wrong when implemented right, and I may never grasp it on paper until somebody puts it into practice...
...Come to think of it, I think we should go Mythbusters on this and Beta-test these combos to determine which ones actually are inviable and which ones are just veteran-based.

If you're suggesting it'd be acceptable to have a class start with a "hilariously tiny 10HP" or something approaching "infinity HP" in order to be "properly balanced" then once again I think you'd need to take a step back and realize that some of these combos can be easily dismissed as being unfeasible even before anyone bothers to code them up and beta test them. Basically some gaming suggestions are so obviously out-of-whack that you really don't need to "test" them first to prove that.

Obviously it would be nice if the CoT Devs could afford to throw all of these combinations (no matter how questionable) together and test them with as much alpha/beta testing as possible. I suspect they would find that at least some of the combos are in fact viable. But the real trick for you would be to convince the Devs to put time and effort into some of your more obviously extreme cases. If you can do that then more power to you - I again remain convinced they would glance at them and say "no" long before they ever saw the light of coding.

Your notion that these extreme classes would be something that would appeal to those who like to play on "hard" or "insane" mode is reasonable enough. I'm actually not against anything that appeals to "veteran" players if it actually works. But much of what you're proposing here mimics some of the attempts that have already been made in these Superhero games to provide a version of "freeform" playing. These are (at least initially) rational attempts to provide players the most freedom to play any and all radical concepts imaginable. But while many pen-n-paper games manage certain degrees of freeform play well enough (because the human GMs can regulate them) they have yet to be translated well into the computer MMO setting. In fact during the alpha testing of CoH itself they attempted to allow players to build their characters virtually any way they wanted without powerset restrictions - in ways that effectively paralleled your suggestions to have (for example) "all offensive powers" or "doubled-up pet powers". As history tells us it was an utter disaster. People were able to create all manner of broken characters which were unplayable regardless of player skill. The complete failure of freeform in CoH led to the adoption of structured ATs and powersets which kept the game from descending into chaos.

This likely explains the Devs' "reasons" behind categorically crossing off the most extreme cases from the very beginning.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
Well, a compromise is a compromise. If something extreme comes along, an extreme counterbalance is needed. Then again, it may not be if they're not as extreme as you think. There's only so much that mere discussion, debate, and speculation can deduce, after all.

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
For the same reason that most video games offer different levels of difficulty. Some people actually enjoy the challenge of playing on Hard or Insane Mode. I do not ask of you to appreciate that, but those of us who like it or are actually good at it will be more likely to pick up the game. In a way, the option appeals to an entirely new group of gamers. "Savor every penny," I say.

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
Hmm, I noticed that too. I'd love to hear the developers' reasons behind that.

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
You're not convinced that I understand, and I agree with that. I have no idea how exactly they could wrong when implemented right, and I may never grasp it on paper until somebody puts it into practice...
...Come to think of it, I think we should go Mythbusters on this and Beta-test these combos to determine which ones actually are inviable and which ones are just veteran-based.

If you're suggesting it'd be acceptable to have a class start with a "hilariously tiny 10HP" or something approaching "infinity HP" in order to be "properly balanced" then once again I think you'd need to take a step back and realize that some of these combos can be easily dismissed as being unfeasible even before anyone bothers to code them up and beta test them. Basically some gaming suggestions are so obviously out-of-whack that you really don't need to "test" them first to prove that.

But they're still properly balanced, right?

Lothic wrote:

Obviously it would be nice if the CoT Devs could afford to throw all of these combinations (no matter how questionable) together and test them with as much alpha/beta testing as possible. I suspect they would find that at least some of the combos are in fact viable. But the real trick for you would be to convince the Devs to put time and effort into some of your more obviously extreme cases. If you can do that then more power to you - I again remain convinced they would glance at them and say "no" long before they ever saw the light of coding.
Your notion that these extreme classes would be something that would appeal to those who like to play on "hard" or "insane" mode is reasonable enough. I'm actually not against anything that appeals to "veteran" players if it actually works. But much of what you're proposing here mimics some of the attempts that have already been made in these Superhero games to provide a version of "freeform" playing. These are (at least initially) rational attempts to provide players the most freedom to play any and all radical concepts imaginable. But while many pen-n-paper games manage certain degrees of freeform play well enough (because the human GMs can regulate them) they have yet to be translated well into the computer MMO setting. In fact during the alpha testing of CoH itself they attempted to allow players to build their characters virtually any way they wanted without powerset restrictions - in ways that effectively paralleled your suggestions to have (for example) "all offensive powers" or "doubled-up pet powers". As history tells us it was an utter disaster. People were able to create all manner of broken characters which were unplayable regardless of player skill. The complete failure of freeform in CoH led to the adoption of structured ATs and powersets which kept the game from descending into chaos.
This likely explains the Devs' "reasons" behind categorically crossing off the most extreme cases from the very beginning.

Well then, if CoH already debunked it... I guess the devs will decide which to keep, which to Beta test and augment, and which to axe outright. Anything absurd may be allowed in a separate Sandbox Mode for CoT if the devs allow it...

I'd say we can leave this for developer review and see how flexible they feel like being about everything discussed herein.

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We do already have our first

We do already have our first 18 selected. We whittled those down based on familiarity, playability, and ease to balance. Past that, we cannot say, because we simply do not know. We have proposals for several of these for future growth, but for now, the initial 18 are the ones we will finish first.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

We do already have our first 18 selected. We whittled those down based on familiarity, playability, and ease to balance. Past that, we cannot say, because we simply do not know. We have proposals for several of these for future growth, but for now, the initial 18 are the ones we will finish first.

I am grateful to see that the future beyond the first 18 is at least ambiguous. I look forward to seeing what and how everything will come together afterwards!

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Anyone wanna get back to the

Anyone wanna get back to the Sandbox Move Albus mentioned earlier?


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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Anyone wanna get back to the Sandbox Move Albus mentioned earlier?

Ah yes, that. It would be an excellent place to test toon concepts out, but I doubt that CoT would go so far as to include it on release. Maybe as a side project in a future update, but before a lot of the other zany or theoretical ideas are let in. That way, we can test them before proliferating a potentially terrible idea into the actual game. With Sandbox Mode, we could easily prove ideas like the original thread's topic as viable or inviable, so I think it would be good to have early on...

...Then again, this is all starting to sound like a Beta server, which we will no doubt have. Maybe Sandbox Mode is an entirely different gameplay. Perhaps it could be like what Gmod is to Half Life- a place to screw with game mechanics rather than actually playing the game.

What do you make of all this?

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The only problem I see with

The only problem I see with this is depleting the Main Server of its population. The most viable place I see for a Sandbox mode would be the worst-case- "lights out" situation.

My definition of a sandbox mode would have at least these qualities:
-Total Freeform in power choice, making the above types irrelevant. (caveat: still place the powersets, but allow the player unlimited (well, however many powers we get...or maybe more))
-NPC spawn
-god mode and/or unlimited enhancement slots (maybe keeping the slots/power number the same)
and -bots: computer generated players to allow SP play.


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There are at least two

There are at least two Sandbox Modes to consider - one for the "lights-out/offline/solo/private servers" mode where the players or server admins could meddle with local copies of config files, and another for testing new powerset combos within the official CoT server framework.

Like in CoH, I imagine that the CoT devs will create in-game commands that can be used for many purposes, including quick internal testing and to help when running special events. Some of you may recall seeing screenshots of dev characters with powers and powerset combinations that were not available to players. Sometimes test server scripts or dev commands were used to set up an initial character state for players to test. Those commands could be used to generate characters with combos from the blank sections of the matrix for play testing, especially if whatever inherent powers/effects (e.g. brute fury) and stat boosts (e.g. tank HP bonus) that might logically be given to the test combos already exist as defined powers used elsewhere.

Mids also allows anyone to create such conceptual CoH AT and power proliferation combos rather easily, and compare their potential offense/defense in a rough manner...it's done via Options -> Advanced -> Database Editor.

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I really want warlord to be a

I really want warlord to be a thing after the initial 18.... also destroyer....

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

I really want warlord to be a thing after the initial 18.... also destroyer....

Well, we can only cross our fingers on those. It'd bring a party to our pants to see those approved among others! What makes you enthusiatic about those?

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Well the only archetypes I

Well the only archetypes I really got into where the mastermind, the brute, the stalker after the devs made it so that I can AS out of hide, and the blapper after it was ported to red side. The warlord combines my love for the mastermind and melee classes and the destroyer seems to me like it would be the ultimate blapper.

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Well the only archetypes I really got into where the mastermind, the brute, the stalker after the devs made it so that I can AS out of hide, and the blapper after it was ported to red side. The warlord combines my love for the mastermind and melee classes and the destroyer seems to me like it would be the ultimate blapper.

'Twould be. I always was partial towards the Scourge because you can use both your powersets at point-blank or a distance. Twice the range, twice the blapping!

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Yeah, a blapper with scourge

Yeah, a blapper with scourge would be pretty BA :D

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

notears wrote:
Well the only archetypes I really got into where the mastermind, the brute, the stalker after the devs made it so that I can AS out of hide, and the blapper after it was ported to red side. The warlord combines my love for the mastermind and melee classes and the destroyer seems to me like it would be the ultimate blapper.

'Twould be. I always was partial towards the Scourge because you can use both your powersets at point-blank or a distance. Twice the range, twice the blapping!

Wait.... I just realized you where talking about the ranged/ranged guy and not the corruptor inherit......

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

I really want warlord to be a thing after the initial 18.... also destroyer....

No disrespect, but I think the op's chart is more than a bit of a pipe dream. The devs developed the official chart to help them map and consider every possible combination of abilities, but it's obvious that certain ones can't be balanced or simply aren't viable. Melee without some form of mitigation makes a character with the durability of tissue paper. The "destroyer" would be unable to solo and would need a full team of tanks to absorb the aggro or a dedicated healer or bubbler to keep him alive... or he would rely almost entirely on ranged and be little different than a blaster. The "warlord", without support powers, would be unable to keep his pets alive, and would spend all his time resummoning them, leaving no end to actually use his melee powers... or would use the pets as an alpha strike and then melee, but without any mitigation his survivability would be very poor.

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The OP's chart makes me think

The OP's chart makes me think of an idea that I've had for an Epic character class; for obvious reason this should be something for veteran players, in my view. I'll explain two embodiments of it, but it could be broadly application across classes.

Suppose we had the ability to add a condition to the COH Scrapper, as an example, that the effect of increasing offensive power by 200%, across the board, for all powers, however enhanced. This could be balanced by randomly decreasing other abilities, either with little warning of with a few seconds of warning...accuracy might fall dramatically, or resistance, or defense, or even hit points...sometimes one, sometimes another...but increased damage would be permanent. This would make the scrapper a lot more dangerous (and therefore fun to play) but also a lot more vulnerable, and therefore more difficult to play. But with the right teammates, and/or the right inspirs, this could be both challenging and rewarding. I think we could consider or name this as a "Cursed Build" for the scrapper, so perhaps it would be something s/he could turn on or off at the start of each mission.

If you consider the same sort of thing for a blaster, it would also work...turn the curse on so that in the center of the Mothership raid, when the buffs are flying, the blaster has enormous powers, but turn it off for the ITF caves, where a blaster is already pretty vulnerable, for example.

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Superpersonage wrote:
Superpersonage wrote:

notears wrote:
I really want warlord to be a thing after the initial 18.... also destroyer....

No disrespect, but I think the op's chart is more than a bit of a pipe dream. The devs developed the official chart to help them map and consider every possible combination of abilities, but it's obvious that certain ones can't be balanced or simply aren't viable. Melee without some form of mitigation makes a character with the durability of tissue paper. The "destroyer" would be unable to solo and would need a full team of tanks to absorb the aggro or a dedicated healer or bubbler to keep him alive... or he would rely almost entirely on ranged and be little different than a blaster. The "warlord", without support powers, would be unable to keep his pets alive, and would spend all his time resummoning them, leaving no end to actually use his melee powers... or would use the pets as an alpha strike and then melee, but without any mitigation his survivability would be very poor.

I believe we covered most of that in the posts above...

PS: The Taskmaster isn't going to keep his pets alive any easier, and that spec is official.

Consultant wrote:

The OP's chart makes me think of an idea that I've had for an Epic character class; for obvious reason this should be something for veteran players, in my view. I'll explain two embodiments of it, but it could be broadly application across classes.
Suppose we had the ability to add a condition to the COH Scrapper, as an example, that the effect of increasing offensive power by 200%, across the board, for all powers, however enhanced. This could be balanced by randomly decreasing other abilities, either with little warning of with a few seconds of warning...accuracy might fall dramatically, or resistance, or defense, or even hit points...sometimes one, sometimes another...but increased damage would be permanent. This would make the scrapper a lot more dangerous (and therefore fun to play) but also a lot more vulnerable, and therefore more difficult to play. But with the right teammates, and/or the right inspirs, this could be both challenging and rewarding. I think we could consider or name this as a "Cursed Build" for the scrapper, so perhaps it would be something s/he could turn on or off at the start of each mission.
If you consider the same sort of thing for a blaster, it would also work...turn the curse on so that in the center of the Mothership raid, when the buffs are flying, the blaster has enormous powers, but turn it off for the ITF caves, where a blaster is already pretty vulnerable, for example.

I only read one embodiment... T_T

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Not everything has to be

Not everything has to be "survivable". A majority of classes in PnP games are more brittle than a rotten log with few if any ways to avoid damage, but most parties are usually comprised of 3 of them. Think to comics as well. How many heroes are One Trick Ponies that can't take a good hit? Cyclops, Flash, Dagger.. the "Warlord" sounds a LOT like Squirrel Girl, and she's regarded as one of the most OP heroes (Beat Doom and Thanos using only her squirrel armies..)

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Superpersonage wrote:
Superpersonage wrote:

notears wrote:
I really want warlord to be a thing after the initial 18.... also destroyer....

No disrespect, but I think the op's chart is more than a bit of a pipe dream. The devs developed the official chart to help them map and consider every possible combination of abilities, but it's obvious that certain ones can't be balanced or simply aren't viable. Melee without some form of mitigation makes a character with the durability of tissue paper. The "destroyer" would be unable to solo and would need a full team of tanks to absorb the aggro or a dedicated healer or bubbler to keep him alive... or he would rely almost entirely on ranged and be little different than a blaster. The "warlord", without support powers, would be unable to keep his pets alive, and would spend all his time resummoning them, leaving no end to actually use his melee powers... or would use the pets as an alpha strike and then melee, but without any mitigation his survivability would be very poor.

Well while I agree with you on it being a pipe dream, I don't really think either of those combinations are really that weak, just different. The destroyer for example wouldn't really need as much protection as the blaster, melee focused blasters have already existed in CoX and they where still an equally viable build despite only having 3 melee attacks at the most. A destroyer would be a lot like a blapper that is more focused on melee rather than control, and wouldn't absolutely require a team at all times as long as he keeps his dps up the same way a blaster does. With the warlord a pets set already melee attacks rather than ranged, demon summoning. A warlord would be a lot like that except with more attack powers rather than support, a thing that's already in the plan with the taskmaster, a pets/assault who already has melee attacks in the first place. Sure there is a little more risk with melee combat but there is also a little more reward with the melee attacks dealing more damage.

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I agree with notears. Besides

I agree with notears. Besides, if they did create these combinations, they would figure out ways to balance them out for survivability. The support abilities with the confirmed Specializations, Bodyguard (Melee/Support) and Commander (Control/Support), will be different in some aspects (magnitude, duration, entire powers). So I'm guessing if they ever made Warlord (Pets/Melee) or Destroyer (Range/Melee), they'd figure out how to give the Warlord tools to keep his pets alive longer, while retaining the damage provided in Melee.

I suggest that all Melee Specializations w/o Protection would gain a "cornered" or berserker effect. Their offense becomes their defense. When in melee range, any attack would engage a Protection aura (I'm sure there's better terminology than "aura") sort of like CoX Willpower. The Protection would be parries, riposte, double riposte, etc. The Warlord would split +Protection between him and his pets, everyone else would have +self Protection. Also, maybe Melee specialization would cause their healer pet to heal at a higher frequency, or heal more HP. Obviously their Protection would be no where near as potent though. Their Protection % would most likely be lower than the Gunner's. After all, their Classification is distance-based, so their strategy shouldn't quite be 100% melee range. I figure they'd jump in and out of the fray in order to play this unique strategy correctly. With that said, they should have an even lower aggro radius than pure ranged characters. Meaning enemies turn their attention to closer team members once a Destroyer/Warlord flees << this most likely depends on the mob as well. I can see them with some low-powered melee-based placate abilities too. Additionally, aren't there going to be some mild +Protection +Resistance tertiaries? Damn, I want to make a Destroyer now :P

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A few questions relating to

A few questions relating to the idea of double melee, double pet ect...
These duplicate combos you proposed....how many players do you think are interested in playing them? And do you think that those players are enough to warrant the devs time to the degree of making a duplicate power combo and balancing it?

How many will play them then become discouraged when they see the difficulty in playing them? Do you think an overly difficult or overly easy AT to play will help or hinder the long term growth of CoT?

How is extra HP (up to infinity) or less health (down to 10) any different than an armor set or lack of armor set? (this confuses me slightly...its like asking for an additional powerset or sacrificing survivability for button mashing ).

What do the more extreme power combinations of double melee or double pets offer that cannot be covered by two separate powersets besides hyper specialization that limits versatility?

All the others I can see being playable to some degree but I Just don't see duplicate power types being a worthwhile addition to the game.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

A few questions relating to the idea of double melee, double pet ect...
1. These duplicate combos you proposed....how many players do you think are interested in playing them? And do you think that those players are enough to warrant the devs time to the degree of making a duplicate power combo and balancing it?
2. How many will play them then become discouraged when they see the difficulty in playing them? Do you think an overly difficult or overly easy AT to play will help or hinder the long term growth of CoT?
3. How is extra HP (up to infinity) or less health (down to 10) any different than an armor set or lack of armor set? (this confuses me slightly...its like asking for an additional powerset or sacrificing survivability for button mashing ).
4. What do the more extreme power combinations of double melee or double pets offer that cannot be covered by two separate powersets besides hyper specialization that limits versatility?
5. All the others I can see being playable to some degree but I Just don't see duplicate power types being a worthwhile addition to the game.

Well, to reiterate on past arguments...

1. Nobody knows how many would want two ranged powers or two assault powers, but I can assure you that the beauty of CoX and CoT's character creator system is the urge it gives players to experiment. Many people will try it, and inevitably a number of them (great or small) will fall in love. Be it out of its sheer audacity or a tactic that makes it playable, people will ultimately at least try it out.

2. It will likely help it, considering there's an entire category of players who prefer something easy or difficult. For difficult archetypes, you have players who like a challenge, play hardcore, know how to exploit a "joke archetype," or are just plain veterans who can handle it. For easy archetypes, you have players who want to learn the ropes of the game, play casual, enjoy winning more than being challenged, or just like the feeling of raw power that playing a OP character provides. CoT strives to be inclusive, and catering to these groups would be an excellent compromise if they somehow couldn't find a way to balance them.

3. To be honest, having extra HP is roughly the same as giving armor or brittleness to a toon. You're exactly right. This HP scaling mechanic was simply my proposal for balancing out classes, considering that powerset combos that induce ultra-high levels of survivability need to be balanced while those that leave you screwed without much of a defense or offense will need a massive pool of HP to give them a chance of staying in the game. There could also be attack power-scaling or defense power-scaling to balance the archetypes further, but either way something has to give in order to make introducing these powers a viable idea.

4. About what you said. You sacrifice your versatility in exchange for godlike power in one category.

5. A tank with melee and defense powersets is good at offense and defense, but somebody with two melee powersets could use insane melee DPS and two different elements to pummel enemies to ash using their elemental weakness. Conversely, someone with two defense powersets could sit back, absorb all of the damage, and disintegrate opponents with his tanker auras. They are like the specialists, and their playstyle is far different from the other more generic classes. It's not a disadvantage if it's played right, and being a noob at tactics* is no excuse to ban it from CoT.

*No, that isn't necessarily directed at you.

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Quote: 1. Nobody knows how
Quote:

1. Nobody knows how many would want two ranged powers or two assault powers, but I can assure you that the beauty of CoX and CoT's character creator system is the urge it gives players to experiment. Many people will try it, and inevitably a number of them (great or small) will fall in love. Be it out of its sheer audacity or a tactic that makes it playable, people will ultimately at least try it out.

I have no doubt that there will be people who want to try this and even those who will like it. The question was in regards to developer time allotment. In the case of duplicate power combos I don't see a huge demand or desire. In the long run I would rather some new story arcs, new power sets or even new costumes than the ability to take two ranged sets.

Quote:

2. It will likely help it, considering there's an entire category of players who prefer something easy or difficult. For difficult archetypes, you have players who like a challenge, play hardcore, know how to exploit a "joke archetype," or are just plain veterans who can handle it. For easy archetypes, you have players who want to learn the ropes of the game, play casual, enjoy winning more than being challenged, or just like the feeling of raw power that playing a OP character provides. CoT strives to be inclusive, and catering to these groups would be an excellent compromise if they somehow couldn't find a way to balance them.

You are right this is great for those who know which combinations are the difficult or easy ones. Not every player will know this though.

Quote:

3. To be honest, having extra HP is roughly the same as giving armor or brittleness to a toon. You're exactly right. This HP scaling mechanic was simply my proposal for balancing out classes, considering that powerset combos that induce ultra-high levels of survivability need to be balanced while those that leave you screwed without much of a defense or offense will need a massive pool of HP to give them a chance of staying in the game. There could also be attack power-scaling or defense power-scaling to balance the archetypes further, but either way something has to give in order to make introducing these powers a viable idea.

Thats exactly my point. To balance many of the duplicate combinations you need to find a way to include what they lack or the set is not viable. With the exception of a range/range combination or possibly a pet/pet combination duplicate sets will require outside influence (teams for example), a boost in the weak area (essentially giving extra power overall) or for each set to have an alternate makeup for this one combination. I just don't think its worth it.

Quote:

4. About what you said. You sacrifice your versatility in exchange for godlike power in one category..

I don't get how you come to this conclusion.
A few duplicate combinations might increase the overall effectiveness of the specialization but I don't see how any of them would be godlike without being influenced by something more than just the powersets themselves.

Quote:

5. A tank with melee and defense powersets is good at offense and defense, but somebody with two melee powersets could use insane melee DPS and two different elements to pummel enemies to ash using their elemental weakness. Conversely, someone with two defense powersets could sit back, absorb all of the damage, and disintegrate opponents with his tanker auras. They are like the specialists, and their playstyle is far different from the other more generic classes. It's not a disadvantage if it's played right, and being a noob at tactics* is no excuse to ban it from CoT..

How does having 18 attacks over 9 attacks change the DPS that drastically? What about those defence sets without a damage aura?

You may not be directing the 'noob at tactics' comment at anyone in particular but it is still arrogant to think that the only reason anyone would not want this is because they can't figure out how to use it well.

I do not like the idea of duplicate power types, the pet/pet, the melee/melee, the defence/defence ect ect ect.
They are limiting in playstyle.
They require too much effort to balance properly.
They appeal to a niche group of players.
They can be game breaking.
They are redundant in that much of what is desired out of the combination can be done by CHOOSING to specialize one powerset over the other.

None of this has to do with tactics...

It should be said though....I would enjoy messing around with a duplicate power combination I just don't think that my enjoyment is worth the time and effort it would take to make that happen.

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I think it is important to

I think it is important to remember the old adage:
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something.

Development time aside, is it really a good idea to fill all the holes in the class chart? When you start talking about only having 10 HP as part of your "balance" it's really time to start thinking whether that combo should be considered at all. Some people like to play weird and/or challenging characters, yes, but look at all the complaints Peace Bringers and War Shades had over the years and they are not even as slightly bothersome as a ranged dam/ranged dam character would be.

I think that between the power combinations already slatted and the way tertiary power sets are being planed to work we will have the ability to make very interesting and varied characters to fit most play styles. I'm not going to say that in the future some of the unlisted power combos should not be looked into, I just do not think all of them need to be put into the game.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

Development time aside, is it really a good idea to fill all the holes in the class chart? When you start talking about only having 10 HP as part of your "balance" it's really time to start thinking whether that combo should be considered at all. Some people like to play weird and/or challenging characters, yes, but look at all the complaints Peace Bringers and War Shades had over the years and they are not even as slightly bothersome as a ranged dam/ranged dam character would be.

This actually brings up a good point as well. Warshades and Peacebringers had the prerequisite of getting one character to level 50 originally. So you could make the assumption that the player should know at least *something* about how the game works.

Throwing them out at the start especially without a warning for "new" players can lead to a case of the first character potentially being a *bad* character and it putting the player totally off the game.

We have *ALL* seen people out there saying that they don't like X game, and they only played it for 30 minutes/1 hour/1 day.... and if the person did that with City of heroes there would be the cry of "Try this set instead", "Just give it until level 32 and then it gets better for you!"... But if they picked up a bad taste at the start, would you really want to try it *again*?

But you also have to remember that THOSE new players won't necessarily know what we "veteran" players know, so they could be making mistakes, taking their time so saying "give it until Level X" is not really the best advice either... they could be looking at *several* days/weeks of playing the same character and finding it hard/distasteful.

I know that people say concerning Wildstar "I don't like Twitch gameplay"... but when I think about it, it *isn't* really all that intensive in the movement until you really start hitting the "end game" stage of the game. And even then, if you learn the stuff with it, the movement is *not* as "hard" as you think it would be. Sure, you cannot learn it by rote, because the encounters are not that "static", but you learn what to do in X situation instead.

Until that point, you can pretty much get away with very minimal movement. Would it be as little as City of Heroes? Not necessarily, but on the flip side, it sure as hell isn't as much as an FPS game either.

But the movement level also depends on the class you play. Spellslingers are glass cannons so you really do need to keep on the move. Shame that you get your more mobile abilities around level 25 (ish)... whereas the warrior/engineer are more "stand your ground" style of character, so you can be *less* mobile (although there are still situation where moving would be *seriously* recommended).

Yes, I know that the Wildstar example is not really *appropriate* for the game, but it is an example of how sometimes picking the wrong thing at the start can give you a *seriously* wrong impression of how the game is.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

I have no doubt that there will be people who want to try this and even those who will like it. The question was in regards to developer time allotment. In the case of duplicate power combos I don't see a huge demand or desire. In the long run I would rather some new story arcs, new power sets or even new costumes than the ability to take two ranged sets.

Well, consider the following: The devs have already developed all the different powersets by the time we get around to such classification, along with all the masteries for each classification. The only difference is what combination and order you get the powers in, and making it should take no time whatsoever due to everything already being prefabricated. If anything, the whole matrix will likely be just one update in a long issue of more "desirable" updates. I kid you not, this is about the same as putting different-colored LEGO bricks together.

islandtrevor72You are right this is great for those who know which combinations are the difficult or easy ones. Not every player will know this though.

Remember in CoX how there was a description of each archetype you could play as, and how in the later updates they had that bar graph that told you how much DPS/survivability/pet damage/etc they had? Yeah, they'll know.

[quote=islandtrevor72 wrote:

Thats exactly my point. To balance many of the duplicate combinations you need to find a way to include what they lack or the set is not viable. With the exception of a range/range combination or possibly a pet/pet combination duplicate sets will require outside influence (teams for example), a boost in the weak area (essentially giving extra power overall) or for each set to have an alternate makeup for this one combination. I just don't think its worth it.

Well, to each his own... This issue loops back into the issue of playability and veteran skill, so I'll let it die.

islandtrevor72 wrote:

I don't get how you come to this conclusion.
A few duplicate combinations might increase the overall effectiveness of the specialization but I don't see how any of them would be godlike without being influenced by something more than just the powersets themselves.

It reduces the cooldown time of many of the hard-hitting functions contained within a powerset or power type. For instance, if you have both Total Focus and Seismic Smash, you can hit opponents with two monstrous blows in half the time, which essentially doubles your DPS. If you have two control powersets, then you can summon control pets from both sets for a nice set of bodyguards while being able to use more powers that take forever to recharge, hence giving you much more leverage against minions. If you have two support powersets, you could buff yourself and your allies to such an extent that you are able to survive just about anything and heal, essentially making you a group-oriented Immortal. (defense/defense) Specialty is not necessarily synonymous with disability, especially after factoring in the potential HP scaling that could be done to balance out any crutches.

That's how I came to that conclusion. The power is godlike in its field, but you are correct about it having tradeoffs in other fields.

islandtrevor72 wrote:

You may not be directing the 'noob at tactics' comment at anyone in particular but it is still arrogant to think that the only reason anyone would not want this is because they can't figure out how to use it well.

Considering I've mostly just been reiterating past solutions to all the other problems, that appears to be the only thing we haven't knocked out yet. I'm all at once shocked and understanding that you would call me arrogant for this. We should have been through beating some of these dead horses by now, but I'm willing to show greater sympathy to any genuinely fresh arguments.

On that note, do you have any other complaints that need to be addressed beyond the current itinerary?

islandtrevor72 wrote:

I do not like the idea of duplicate power types, the pet/pet, the melee/melee, the defence/defence ect ect ect.
They are limiting in playstyle.

From a one-toon standpoint, you are absolutely correct. The secondary can be changed to something more versatile in the game's respec though, so it shouldn't be too much of a loss.

islandtrevor72 wrote:

They require too much effort to balance properly.
They can be game breaking.

Despite the stat-scaling proposal I brought up for the umpteenth time just a couple posts back? The same mechanism which is employed when designing every other archetype in the game?

islandtrevor72 wrote:

They appeal to a niche group of players.

OPERATIVE WORD: "Niche."

islandtrevor72 wrote:

They are redundant in that much of what is desired out of the combination can be done by CHOOSING to specialize one powerset over the other.

You're forgetting the masteries directly associated with each primary powerset type. They're not as redundant as you might think, unless if you are referring to something other than "Destroyer is the same thing as Slayer."

islandtrevor72 wrote:

None of this has to do with tactics...

Well, considering the fact that every combo has a strategy associated with its designated powersets and particularly radical combos require certain tactics to make them viable just like all the others...

...Yeah, you're right. Every archetype has to put up with that.

islandtrevor72 wrote:

It should be said though....I would enjoy messing around with a duplicate power combination I just don't think that my enjoyment is worth the time and effort it would take to make that happen.

Well, you never know until you try. I got several people on the bandwagon to beta-test them, but then Lothic or whoever pointed out that CoX tried that. The only difference was that CoX went out of the way to let people individually select powers rather than merely choosing whatever combination of powersets they want. Whether or not the need for just power tiers or only certain powerset combos being allowed is anyone's guess.

I'm game. Wanna settle this matter later during beta-testing, or do you feel like just shooting it out of the sky here and now?

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Quote:
Quote:

Well, consider the following: The devs have already developed all the different powersets by the time we get around to such classification, along with all the masteries for each classification. The only difference is what combination and order you get the powers in, and making it should take no time whatsoever due to everything already being prefabricated. If anything, the whole matrix will likely be just one update in a long issue of more "desirable" updates. I kid you not, this is about the same as putting different-colored LEGO bricks together..

Just tweaking the exisisting powersets is nowhere near all they have to do to make a duplicate power combination work. Sure it might be all they need to do to get it in the game but to balance it requires testing, feedback, more testing, more feedback, alpha testing, and so on.

Quote:

Remember in CoX how there was a description of each archetype you could play as, and how in the later updates they had that bar graph that told you how much DPS/survivability/pet damage/etc they had? Yeah, they'll know..

Remember how some powersets took a while to come into their own? I am not for extreme cases of this as I believe duplicate power combinations would be. Yeah ... point stands.

Quote:

It reduces the cooldown time of many of the hard-hitting functions contained within a powerset or power type. For instance, if you have both Total Focus and Seismic Smash, you can hit opponents with two monstrous blows in half the time, which essentially doubles your DPS..

I think you are confusing DPS with spike damage.

Quote:

If you have two control powersets, then you can summon control pets from both sets for a nice set of bodyguards while being able to use more powers that take forever to recharge, hence giving you much more leverage against minions. If you have two support powersets, you could buff yourself and your allies to such an extent that you are able to survive just about anything and heal, essentially making you a group-oriented Immortal. (defense/defense) Specialty is not necessarily synonymous with disability, especially after factoring in the potential HP scaling that could be done to balance out any crutches..

The controllers would be fine against regular content but would be hindered in trials and TFs. The defence/defence or support/support would be hindered (almost to uselessness) in any kind of solo play. You still ignore non pet control sets, non damage aura defences and the fact that buffs and debuffs have maximums (which were not always hard to reach with one set).

Much of the power you claim assumes the best powers that mesh together are taken, it ignores the less than ideal combinations of say Super Reflexes and Ice Armor. One is positional defence the other is type defence. Or how about fire armor and Invulnrability. think there might be some moderately redundant powers there? What about those who take two sets of the same type....say FF ...seems like it would be a great idea....two bubbles both boosting the same defence....or does it? Code say only one buff active at a time (careful its a trap). As I said some combinations would improve that specialty but I still don't see them being godlike.

But lets say that they are truly godlike now lets say you have two defence/defence guys on the same team.... if one can hold all the aggro and never die what does the other do? Same with buffs or controls. A one trick pony is not a good idea IMO... cause there is no versatility...nothing for them to fall back on...

Quote:

Considering I've mostly just been reiterating past solutions to all the other problems, that appears to be the only thing we haven't knocked out yet. I'm all at once shocked and understanding that you would call me arrogant for this. We should have been through beating some of these dead horses by now, but I'm willing to show greater sympathy to any genuinely fresh arguments..

The reason why I said it was arrogant was because your statement makes the assumption that we are not smart enough. Beating a dead horse assumes your arguments stand up (which I have read by the way and did not need repeating here).

Quote:

From a one-toon standpoint, you are absolutely correct. The secondary can be changed to something more versatile in the game's respec though, so it shouldn't be too much of a loss.

This goes back to one of my original points.... about discouraging new players. Put it this way....only have one chance to make a first impression. Also....you can only play one character at a time...

Quote:

Despite the stat-scaling proposal I brought up for the umpteenth time just a couple posts back? The same mechanism which is employed when designing every other archetype in the game?.

You can say it as many umpteenth times as you want...it can be difficult to balance the duplicate combination and it can be game breaking.

Quote:

OPERATIVE WORD: "Niche.".

I have no idea why you pointed this out.....at all. I think I am not getting my point across on this one. When I say niche I mean a small percent of the player base....

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You're forgetting the masteries directly associated with each primary powerset type. They're not as redundant as you might think, unless if you are referring to something other than "Destroyer is the same thing as Slayer.".

No....I have not forgotten the masteries. As I said, there are many powers that in a powerset that will have overlaping effects that do not stack. This is mostly found in the buff/debuff areas. Let me just try to explain a bit further.
When you look at sets like thermal and empathy from COH there are some powers that are exactly the same in effect, activation, recharge and end use. Heal other in empathy and Cauterize in Thermal were identical except for appearance and when you could get them. On the surface this seems like a good thing....two big heals whats to dislike? The fact that they had such a low recharge meant you did not NEED both. One was up pretty much all the time. What if we look at two resistance armors....Sure you can fill in the gaps in the armor (invulnerable's psy hole) but you also go WELL beyond what is needed in other...making some powers redundant.

Quote:

Well, considering the fact that every combo has a strategy associated with its designated powersets and particularly radical combos require certain tactics to make them viable just like all the others...

...Yeah, you're right. Every archetype has to put up with that.
.

How does this relate to what I was talking about.....my comment about tactics was in direct response to your comment about how tactics isn't an argument against. You simply ignored the fact that you boiled down everything we say in disagreement to the fact that we are not smart enough to come up with tactics. Quoting out of context is not very productive.

Quote:

Well, you never know until you try. I got several people on the bandwagon to beta-test them, but then Lothic or whoever pointed out that CoX tried that. The only difference was that CoX went out of the way to let people individually select powers rather than merely choosing whatever combination of powersets they want. Whether or not the need for just power tiers or only certain powerset combos being allowed is anyone's guess.

I'm game. Wanna settle this matter later during beta-testing, or do you feel like just shooting it out of the sky here and now?
.

I may not 'know' in the absolute, but I can make an educated guess about my own personal interests. Based on that guess, the fact that I think you are seriously underestimating the amount of work implementing a duplicate power combination would take long before it ever saw beta testing and baring any new information on this .....yes I do think allowing players to pick two sets from the same category is not worth it.

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Actually, if anything, the

Actually, if anything, the options planned for launch already allow combinations that shouldn't reasonably work. For that matter, CoH/V allowed options that shouldn't reasonably work.

For example, consider the Blaster. How many pure examples are there in comics? People point to the Human Torch, but he has a force field. Others suggest Cyclops, but he wears (light) armor, and is trained in martial arts. Others have mentioned Iron Man, but clearly he's WAY better protected than any Blaster could be.

Such a character is silly because in any kind of halfway plausible universe, he or she would wind up very dead, very fast. OK, death may be cheap in comics, but it's not "respawn every page" cheap. Unless, you have regeneration, that is, in which case the character isn't a Blaster anyway.

In the power-set schema, virtually every well-known super is either Defense/Offense or Offense/Defense. Crowd control, pets, etc. are generally ancillary, tempo powers, and so forth.

Pure Offense, double-Defense, and similar characters DO exist in comics, but they are almost invariably NPCs. They appear in stories mainly to highlight how much more effective the well-rounded protagonists are.

This isn't just my POV, either. An early edition of the Champions RPG included extensive sidebars explaining what an idiot you are if you don't give your character an effective offense, defense, AND travel power.

However, in a computer game, players can make unreasonable character builds "work," since such a game does not model all aspects of a super's life. Why not let people experiment? As long as it is made clear that certain combinations are not expected to be effective, then where's the harm in duplicating power sets over for free combination following the chart?

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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Multiplayer games are

Multiplayer games are intended for grouping (the need for soloing is really a failure to make grouping easy, fast, and intuitive) and thus most combos would work fine in a group environment, especially a CoH-like game where buffs stack infinitely (well, up to hard caps anyway). So multiple awful buff or debuff secondaries would work fine.

What raid group didn't love half a dozen people running tertiary-level leadership buffs, for that matter?

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Quote:
Quote:

Multiplayer games are intended for grouping (the need for soloing is really a failure to make grouping easy, fast, and intuitive)and thus most combos would work fine in a group environment, especially a CoH-like game where buffs stack infinitely (well, up to hard caps anyway). So multiple awful buff or debuff secondaries would work fine.

What raid group didn't love half a dozen people running tertiary-level leadership buffs, for that matter?
.

I am not sure I understand you. I hope you are saying that the focus of a multiplayer game is teaming and not that soloing should be discouraged.

I agree that most combos will work fine...as you say there were many less useful powers or combinations in CoH.

My issue is with duplicate power types. The melee melee, the support support ect. The only one I could see as worth the time is the Range Range combination.

They do not add to the game in a way I consider significant enough to warrant the time and effort it would take to make them. The very nature of this combination will bring about redundancy in player choice. I also think unless they are very carefully considered before implementation that they could either be discouraging, boring, or game breaking. All of which is harmful to the life of the game.

I have not denied that there could be an upside to these combinations, that they may fill a gap in the game, that they would provide some enjoyment to me personally or that I do not know what the exact composition of CoTs powersets will be. With the information I have now I just do not think it is worth it.

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Quote:
Quote:

Actually, if anything, the options planned for launch already allow combinations that shouldn't reasonably work. For that matter, CoH/V allowed options that shouldn't reasonably work.

For example, consider the Blaster. How many pure examples are there in comics? People point to the Human Torch, but he has a force field. Others suggest Cyclops, but he wears (light) armor, and is trained in martial arts. Others have mentioned Iron Man, but clearly he's WAY better protected than any Blaster could be.
.

A comic is written. Any flaws or advantages in the comic are there to just tell the story. In a game there are mechanics that say how the game progresses. A direct comparison is not workable as both have extremely different rules in place to provide a very different type of entertainment.

Quote:

However, in a computer game, players can make unreasonable character builds "work," since such a game does not model all aspects of a super's life. Why not let people experiment? As long as it is made clear that certain combinations are not expected to be effective, then where's the harm in duplicating power sets over for free combination following the chart?.

There is a reason terms like OP, UP and gamebreaking came to be. Its because they are harmful to a games life.

If a combination is OP it becomes the standard at which everything is measured to, not only by the players but the devs as well. This results in situations where unless you are the OP combination you get shunned from a part of the player base and have a much more difficult time in obtaining goals... Examples include power gamers who discount you from teams because you do not have the desired combination. If the combination is UP then you can experience the same thing. These will happen regardless I just don't think there should be extreme cases of it.

If the combination is game breaking it is a much worse problem. The fire tanker herding from CoH is a good example of this. It is an extreme example of how risk was removed and all that is left is reward. The original mission creator farms is another example of breaking the games design.

I do agree that these combinations can be balanced and avoid all of the pitfalls I describe in this post and others. I do not agree that it would be worth the time and effort it would take.

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Well, Islandtrevor, to each

Well, Islandtrevor, to each his own. The more controversial combos will never have their potential known until somebody tests it, and going on paper alone is no substitute. If the kinks can be worked out after testing, then we'll get it. Whether or not it was worth it remains up to subjectivity as of this hour.

This'll either work, get heavily edited, or completely bust. Cross your fingers and hope it goes better than expected.

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Quote:
Quote:

Well, Islandtrevor, to each his own. The more controversial combos will never have their potential known until somebody tests it, and going on paper alone is no substitute. If the kinks can be worked out after testing, then we'll get it. Whether or not it was worth it remains up to subjectivity as of this hour.

This'll either work, get heavily edited, or completely bust. Cross your fingers and hope it goes better than expected.
.

If you are saying let the topic drop fine. I still think you are looking at this from the wrong angle. But ok I will let it drop.

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I'm just gonna say this 100

I'm just gonna say this 100,000 times

"Game First, Comics Later"

They are creating a game. NOT a comic book.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I'm just gonna say this 100,000 times
"Game First, Comics Later"
They are creating a game. NOT a comic book.

Whatever that means.

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I think JayBezz is talking

I think JayBezz is talking about CallmeBlues post where he compares the dev proposed ATs to characters in comics.

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Well in that case, if the

Well in that case, if the devs already want to inject comic-book ideas then surely they would be more lenient than expected on this.

However, I suspect that JayBezz probably condemns the devs' openness based on that factoid.

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The general feel of comics

The general feel of comics sure....that's pretty much the genre they are working in. But when CallmeBlue said that blasters in CoH are not like Blasters in comics (using specific examples) then going on to speak about its plausibility in a real world setting... its just not a good argument.

Jaybezz may have ideas on how the game should be developed that I may disagree with, just as we all have Ideas for the game that are not universally accepted. But to say he wants to limit the devs creativity is a bit unfair.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Jaybezz may have ideas on how the game should be developed that I may disagree with, just as we all have Ideas for the game that are not universally accepted. But to say he wants to limit the devs creativity is a bit unfair.

Good point- the limitation of creativity is a tradeoff, not the actual goal. I'm sorry for not clarifying.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

The general feel of comics sure....that's pretty much the genre they are working in. But when CallmeBlue said that blasters in CoH are not like Blasters in comics (using specific examples) then going on to speak about its plausibility in a real world setting... its just not a good argument.

Actually, my point was that there aren't any Blasters in comics, at least as major characters. Using the power set schema, all major characters are either Offense/Defense or Defense/Offense. In any kind of halfway believable environment, Offense/Offense or Offense/WeakBuffs would not be survivable.

Players will say, "Of course it's survivable! I played a Blaster for eight years!" That's great, but no MMO takes into account even the complexity of a fictional world, let alone the real world.

For example, in my table-top supers campaigns, most of the savvy masterminds and evil corporations understand that it is cheaper and more effective to deploy large numbers of snipers than a half-dozen mooks in power armor. Any super that stands out in any way, such as by using his/her powers in public. should start taking large-caliber supersonic lead soon thereafter. Any pure Blaster, who pretty much by definition is no tougher than a normal, would wind up with the epitaph of, "Boom-Headshot!"

In disaster and combat zones, the snipers would be backed up by mortars, rocket-propelled grenades, and shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles. Dedicated facilities would employ over-the-horizon air-defense systems. And all this is only taking into account real-world technology. Thus, any super worthy of the label would have to be tough enough to withstand this sort of environment on a regular basis.

I doubt that the enemies in CoT will be this pragmatic. They weren't in CoH/V.

Double-power-set characters are weaker than balanced Offense/Defense characters because they either won't be able to damage their foes, or by all rights ought to be dead very quickly. Let players decide whether they want to take that kind of risk. A disclaimer would be appropriate though.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

In disaster and combat zones, the snipers would be backed up by mortars, rocket-propelled grenades, and shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles. Dedicated facilities would employ over-the-horizon air-defense systems. And all this is only taking into account real-world technology. Thus, any super worthy of the label would have to be tough enough to withstand this sort of environment on a regular basis.
I doubt that the enemies in CoT will be this pragmatic. They weren't in CoH/V.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcinzmfZeCc

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CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

islandtrevor72 wrote:
The general feel of comics sure....that's pretty much the genre they are working in. But when CallmeBlue said that blasters in CoH are not like Blasters in comics (using specific examples) then going on to speak about its plausibility in a real world setting... its just not a good argument.
Actually, my point was that there aren't any Blasters in comics, at least as major characters. Using the power set schema, all major characters are either Offense/Defense or Defense/Offense. In any kind of halfway believable environment, Offense/Offense or Offense/WeakBuffs would not be survivable.
Players will say, "Of course it's survivable! I played a Blaster for eight years!" That's great, but no MMO takes into account even the complexity of a fictional world, let alone the real world.
For example, in my table-top supers campaigns, most of the savvy masterminds and evil corporations understand that it is cheaper and more effective to deploy large numbers of snipers than a half-dozen mooks in power armor. Any super that stands out in any way, such as by using his/her powers in public. should start taking large-caliber supersonic lead soon thereafter. Any pure Blaster, who pretty much by definition is no tougher than a normal, would wind up with the epitaph of, "Boom-Headshot!"
In disaster and combat zones, the snipers would be backed up by mortars, rocket-propelled grenades, and shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles. Dedicated facilities would employ over-the-horizon air-defense systems. And all this is only taking into account real-world technology. Thus, any super worthy of the label would have to be tough enough to withstand this sort of environment on a regular basis.
I doubt that the enemies in CoT will be this pragmatic. They weren't in CoH/V.
Double-power-set characters are weaker than balanced Offense/Defense characters because they either won't be able to damage their foes, or by all rights ought to be dead very quickly. Let players decide whether they want to take that kind of risk. A disclaimer would be appropriate though.

Cyclops = ranged/ranged
Black canary = ranged/melee
The entire green lantern franchise = control/control
Joker= pets/pets
Professor X = control/control
Scarecrow = control/control

The new system with it's ability to let you choose your secondary is about trading something typical for that type of role for something else. Melee/support trades out some of the typical shields for smash and bash type character for more support powers. Pets/assault give up their ability to heal and buff their pets completely for a lot more offense and likewise offense/offense powerset combinations would give up a secondary role for more firepower. A ranged/ranged would have double the ranged firepower than ranged/manipulation, a control/control would be able to lock down a target twice as fast, and a ranged/melee would be able to dish out damage as much in ranged combat as ranged combat.

Also that whole thing with putting snipers on you're building may be smart in a place with no laws, in Titan city? It's down right stupid. First of all not everyone who has a super power puts on a cape and mask and fights crime. A guy who shoots lasers out of his eyes is just as likely to run a pizza joint than fight crime, an empathy might decide he wants to be a therapist rather than a crime fighter and someone who can control water might choose to be a fire fighter. Having your snipers shoot anyone with a super power is not only going to not guarantee one less crime fighter in the city but it's also going to get SWAT or COPS on you're tail before you even realize it and they are actually well equipped to take out mad scientists and supervillains, they have powersuits and lightning guns dude!!! It doesn't matter how many men you have in power armour they'll cut you up dude!!!

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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All of you...

All of you...

Read this. Now read this.

Now read these.

Let your mind wander. That is all.

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AAaiiiiieeeee! No, Br'er Fox

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Well, first you are mistaken

Well, first you are mistaken about a number of your examples. Lanterns run force fields off their rings, so they are clearly Offense/Defense. Their offensive sets do include some control powers, like ice Blasters had.

Cyclops is also Offense/Defense. He wears light body armor, and has enough martial arts training to know how to roll with attacks. Most importantly, he can deflect attacks with his eye beams.

Professor X can do some serious mental damage if he wants to, so I would characterize him as Control/Damage. However, IMHO he isn't a "main" or "player" character. He's more of a built-in mentor/contact and dependent NPC for various X-Teams. During those periods when he can walk, normally the writers give him some sort of limitation to his powers.

The Joker is Normal/Plot Armor. He has the combat skills of a common thug, and isn't any kind of threat to a real super. The only reason that someone like Lex Luthor or Black Adam hasn't killed him is that for some obscure reason DC fans like him, so the writers give him total plot immunity. Emperor Joker is another matter entirely...

(Hmm. Actually, a toned-down version of Plot Armor would be a WONDERFUL power set. RPers would love a defensive set that works without bells, whistles, or garish auras.)

Not sure which Scarecrow you mean, but the DC one is another bit player whose defense consists of counting on heroes and police to use restraint while subduing him. Villains of the Week are precisely the types of characters who double up on power sets, and fail consistently because they can't keep up with the more sensibly built heroes.

I'm not really familiar with Black Canary, but I suspect that on closer analysis she'd turn out to be either Assault/Defense or Defense/Assault. Most "player" characters in super-fiction fall into one of those two categories because they are so immensely practical.

Really, this concept generalizes to many other fields, like ecology, and naval architecture. In any halfway believable setting, involving a variety of plausible situations, a generalist design will do better than a specialist. If a narrow specialist does waaay better in a situation, especially in an RPG, that's usually a sign that the encounter is not sufficiently diverse in its opponents, environment, or enemy tactics.

OK, real-world example: During the naval arms race that led up to WW I, English battlecruiser proponents argued that if a battlecruiser could be made fast enough, with sufficiently long-ranged guns, then it could destroy at range anything with inferior guns, and outrun anything with better ones. Armor was not important! Meanwhile, the Germans knew better, and built their battlecruisers with a more even mix of offense, armor, and speed.

Well, the results of Jutland speak eloquently for themselves. The English lost three battlecruisers almost with all hands, while the Germans only lost one by slow flooding, even though at one point the German battlecruisers took fire from essentially the whole combined English fleet to mask the rest of the German fleet!

About my city example, well, a sensible evil mastermind would use police as his/her snipers, either by way of mind control, blackmail, or simple bribery. However, that was just one example. The point was that someone who goes looking for trouble with super-human beings had better be able to deflect bullets with his or her forehead at the very least; all it takes is one head shot to ruin your whole day.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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CallmeBlue wrote:Cyclops is
CallmeBlue wrote:

Cyclops is also Offense/Defense. He wears light body armor, and has enough martial arts training to know how to roll with attacks. Most importantly, he can deflect attacks with his eye beams

Player characters in the City of.. family game were routinely subject to bullets, elemental attacks, and attacks from oversized robotic enemies, and that is just a tiny part of the dangers they faced. They were typically not dropped by a single attack. It was left up to the player to decide, if they were so inclined, as to why that was. It would be perfectly fitting in game lore to say they had "light body armor and enough training to doge/ roll with the blows."

Just like it was left up to Marvel's writers to determine that the idea of someone without any defensive powers going into a firefight without at least light armor would be silly.

I don't really see how you can take something that is a base requirement for being a player character and say that's a 'defensive' set. By that measure, every hero in City of Heroes had it by virtue of the fact they were able to survive gunfights.

When you get to the point of describing basic ability to survive as a "defensive power," you might as well be saying "Oh, and he had hit points, so clearly he's a tank."

I don't think it would be fair to argue every hero in City of Heroes was a */regen because they regained hit points either because, again, it's kind of a basic requirement for gameplay.

I'm not defending this silly chart (although I love the chart, AA dropping a bunch of links to TV tropes only proves examples exist, NOT that they have a place in THIS game), I do think it's a bit unfair to imply a basic ability to survive counts as a secondary ability in of itself.

Of course, this ignores the facts comicbooks are too different a media to compare to a MMO in terms of primary and secondary abilities.

The only thing that matters is "How will it play in a MMO?" and - as AA occasionally overlooks- Is this option WORTH exploring? Not, "How did a few dozen writers write a comicbook character over the last fifty years?"

(Further, just because "Well we don't KNOW for SURE that this archetype might not be possible to do" or "but I'm sure someone somewhere might want to play it" isn't enough reason to actually develop an archetype and subject it to testing. Especially when they've presented more than enough archetype ideas to get the game going.)

This is one of those ideas that, especially a year before the game starts, is worth admiring for its creativity and effort, not have its fairly low practicality debated.

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Quote:
Quote:

Actually, my point was that there aren't any Blasters in comics, at least as major characters..

Well...there are but the point I was trying to make was that comics and games are separate entertainment mediums. What works in comics does not work in games. And neither is based in reality.

Also....just looking at one of your examples....Cyclops....
He was a Energy-martial arts blaster with the fighting power pool. Try meeting the devs halfway.

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CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

Well, first you are mistaken about a number of your examples. Lanterns run force fields off their rings, so they are clearly Offense/Defense. Their offensive sets do include some control powers, like ice Blasters had.
Cyclops is also Offense/Defense. He wears light body armor, and has enough martial arts training to know how to roll with attacks. Most importantly, he can deflect attacks with his eye beams.
Professor X can do some serious mental damage if he wants to, so I would characterize him as Control/Damage. However, IMHO he isn't a "main" or "player" character. He's more of a built-in mentor/contact and dependent NPC for various X-Teams. During those periods when he can walk, normally the writers give him some sort of limitation to his powers.
The Joker is Normal/Plot Armor. He has the combat skills of a common thug, and isn't any kind of threat to a real super. The only reason that someone like Lex Luthor or Black Adam hasn't killed him is that for some obscure reason DC fans like him, so the writers give him total plot immunity. Emperor Joker is another matter entirely...
(Hmm. Actually, a toned-down version of Plot Armor would be a WONDERFUL power set. RPers would love a defensive set that works without bells, whistles, or garish auras.)
Not sure which Scarecrow you mean, but the DC one is another bit player whose defense consists of counting on heroes and police to use restraint while subduing him. Villains of the Week are precisely the types of characters who double up on power sets, and fail consistently because they can't keep up with the more sensibly built heroes.
I'm not really familiar with Black Canary, but I suspect that on closer analysis she'd turn out to be either Assault/Defense or Defense/Assault. Most "player" characters in super-fiction fall into one of those two categories because they are so immensely practical.
Really, this concept generalizes to many other fields, like ecology, and naval architecture. In any halfway believable setting, involving a variety of plausible situations, a generalist design will do better than a specialist. If a narrow specialist does waaay better in a situation, especially in an RPG, that's usually a sign that the encounter is not sufficiently diverse in its opponents, environment, or enemy tactics.
OK, real-world example: During the naval arms race that led up to WW I, English battlecruiser proponents argued that if a battlecruiser could be made fast enough, with sufficiently long-ranged guns, then it could destroy at range anything with inferior guns, and outrun anything with better ones. Armor was not important! Meanwhile, the Germans knew better, and built their battlecruisers with a more even mix of offense, armor, and speed.
Well, the results of Jutland speak eloquently for themselves. The English lost three battlecruisers almost with all hands, while the Germans only lost one by slow flooding, even though at one point the German battlecruisers took fire from essentially the whole combined English fleet to mask the rest of the German fleet!
About my city example, well, a sensible evil mastermind would use police as his/her snipers, either by way of mind control, blackmail, or simple bribery. However, that was just one example. The point was that someone who goes looking for trouble with super-human beings had better be able to deflect bullets with his or her forehead at the very least; all it takes is one head shot to ruin your whole day.

"real world examples" have no place in a supers world. At all. Okay? Worlds like that don't follow our rules. They follow their's. It's an alternate reality that works like a comic book. If we did, we'd have super speedsters bursting into flames, or martial artists instantly getting shot down. That's not fun, and black canary is a ranged/melee. She's a martial artist with a sonic cry. Second yes Cyclops by city of titans system is a ranged/ranged compared to other supers. Body armour and a little martial arts know how isn't secondary material, it's tertiary material at best. Joker is a strategist and the best one there is in the dcu, and his "power" is based off intelligence not "plot armour", there have been plenty of times when he has outsmarted lex luthor and black adam alike. There is a reason people fear him. And even if I'm wrong, I shouldn't have to provide an existing example in comics for something to be valid. I want to make MY hero or villain. I want to vomit bees on people, I want to shoot bullets out of my eyes and I want to dodge bullets despite being just a normal dude. I don't want to burst into flames and die instantly from friction burn just because I want to be a speedster, or instantly get shot and die just because I want to be a martial artist. Realism as we know it don't belong in comic books, and any example that does was either trying to deconstruct it rather than play it normally or is not an example at all. I want to be a ranged/ranged who blows up his enemies with twice the fire power that a typical soldier has, I want to wade into combat along side my minions with a pets/melee and I want to gun fu like a baws with my ranged/melee, and no "realism complaints" or "name a comic character that does exactly the thing you want to do or else you can't do it" should stop me from making the character I want to make.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Also....just looking at one of your examples....Cyclops....
He was a Energy-martial arts blaster with the fighting power pool. Try meeting the devs halfway.

I suppose you could be feeling generous and say he had some sort of light armor Epic Power pool set, since he didn't wear it in the early days.

But that's only if you are feeling especially generous towards the argument.

Not that it really matters in this debate anyway.

Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working at Masterhand Milling in Nebraska.
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Maybe I'm going out on a limb

Maybe I'm going out on a limb here but I don't see the point in arguing about what kinds of Archetype models we do or don't think should exist. Every one of us can argue on behalf of some point of view that someone else will disagree with.

Personally I perceive Cyclops as a ranged/ranged blaster. He can to a limited degree control the magnitude of his optic blast through limiting its duration and focal points. This makes it both offensive and defensive in a variety of ways. Not all of those are necessarily captured in the mechanics/power sets as we have seen them in existing games. I always considered his "martial arts" to be nigh in comparison to his actual powers and the "body armor" wasn't there when he was first introduced it was an after thought. A good one because as a ranged/ranged he doesn't have a strong defense. It is prudent to learn a "Fighting" or "Martial Arts" ancillary powerset because not every situation allows for ranged targeting. Some enemies are stealthy until immediatly adjacent.

Honestly, I liken this to trying to fit a 1960's tool into a 2015 workbench tool bin. I don't think Cyclops was created with our modern concepts of "Archetypes" in mind, per se.
Keep in mind many of the early comic book characters were generally limited in power-scope.

Modern times, new ways of thinking, new challenges. Audiences are always hungry for something more than what they have experienced. So we see characters grow in scope now the basics are ironed out. Offensive, Defensive, Travel/Utility/Support. As such the Devs appear to be designing the game to manage a lot of our expectations, based largely from previous games (CoX) and the rpg genre in general, but with better crafted mechanics. Mechanics that I believe will allow for many of our requests.

I'm sure the exotic powerset combos will exist but probably not early on in the game. The first ones will be those that are the most balanced and easiest to craft under the new mechanics. What made CoX cool was that you could customize the character however you wanted within the limitations of the software and perceptions of what powersets should be "partnered" within each archetype. I think CoT will follow that in a general sense but with more flexibility and forward thinking about how players will come to play the game they build. Remember they are working on it entirely because of all the fans that support the "spiritual successor" conceptually.

For me that means they are going to broaden the range of customization including powerset selections. Understanding my choices may be making it much harder to play than intended. Why should they deny me my pain as a mostly defenseless ranged/ranged if I so desire? Again, I don't expect such a combo available at release but hopefully it will come in time. Bring on the choices!

OH and btw, the Joker was never meant to be one of the Biggest and Baddest. He strategizes and targets weaknesses, we all have em... He was the introduction of Chaos and he was very good at his job.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

Maybe I'm going out on a limb here but I don't see the point in arguing about what kinds of Archetype models we do or don't think should exist. Every one of us can argue on behalf of some point of view that someone else will disagree with.
Personally I perceive Cyclops as a ranged/ranged blaster. He can to a limited degree control the magnitude of his optic blast through limiting its duration and focal points. This makes it both offensive and defensive in a variety of ways. Not all of those are necessarily captured in the mechanics/power sets as we have seen them in existing games. I always considered his "martial arts" to be nigh in comparison to his actual powers and the "body armor" wasn't there when he was first introduced it was an after thought. A good one because as a ranged/ranged he doesn't have a strong defense. It is prudent to learn a "Fighting" or "Martial Arts" ancillary powerset because not every situation allows for ranged targeting. Some enemies are stealthy until immediatly adjacent.
Honestly, I liken this to trying to fit a 1960's tool into a 2015 workbench tool bin. I don't think Cyclops was created with our modern concepts of "Archetypes" in mind, per se.
Keep in mind many of the early comic book characters were generally limited in power-scope.
Modern times, new ways of thinking, new challenges. Audiences are always hungry for something more than what they have experienced. So we see characters grow in scope now the basics are ironed out. Offensive, Defensive, Travel/Utility/Support. As such the Devs appear to be designing the game to manage a lot of our expectations, based largely from previous games (CoX) and the rpg genre in general, but with better crafted mechanics. Mechanics that I believe will allow for many of our requests.
I'm sure the exotic powerset combos will exist but probably not early on in the game. The first ones will be those that are the most balanced and easiest to craft under the new mechanics. What made CoX cool was that you could customize the character however you wanted within the limitations of the software and perceptions of what powersets should be "partnered" within each archetype. I think CoT will follow that in a general sense but with more flexibility and forward thinking about how players will come to play the game they build. Remember they are working on it entirely because of all the fans that support the "spiritual successor" conceptually.
For me that means they are going to broaden the range of customization including powerset selections. Understanding my choices may be making it much harder to play than intended. Why should they deny me my pain as a mostly defenseless ranged/ranged if I so desire? Again, I don't expect such a combo available at release but hopefully it will come in time. Bring on the choices!
OH and btw, the Joker was never meant to be one of the Biggest and Baddest. He strategizes and targets weaknesses, we all have em... He was the introduction of Chaos and he was very good at his job.

Well to be fair I was more defending the fact that a game set in an alternate world based off comic book physics of and people in spandex punching other people shouldn't based off our world's definition of realism and that I should make my character look and act, powers and abilities included, however I wanted rather than having to be exactly like the powers from other peoples creations, more than anything else. Really? The AT's beyond the initial 18 are a long time away, like around 10 years long. Really all I did was point out some fun wild speculations on a thread about fun wild speculations that would be nice to eventually have and then it exploded into this whole debate about comparing the game to the real world or wanting the ATs to be designed after supers that already exist rather than what the player wants to make for themselves. Really I was just content with just going "Wow that ranged/melee looks interesting" without someone piping up with entire essays that all boil down to "Nu uh, you can't be a ranged/melee because realistically you would die instantly without body armour" or "Nuh uh, you can't be a blaster because the human torch or cyclops is clearly a gunner!"! Putting realism into a supers game is like taking every ounce of magic, fantasy races and monsters from lord of the rings and then covering everything with dirt and poo and I do not want it in this game!!!!

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Quote:
Quote:

islandtrevor72 wrote:
Also....just looking at one of your examples....Cyclops....
He was a Energy-martial arts blaster with the fighting power pool. Try meeting the devs halfway.

Quote:

I suppose you could be feeling generous and say he had some sort of light armor Epic Power pool set, since he didn't wear it in the early days.

But that's only if you are feeling especially generous towards the argument.

Not that it really matters in this debate anyway.
.

.

The point I was trying to make was that not everything has to be defined by the devs. This was one example of how you can look at the game and make it fit with the comics. It was a direct comment on how CallMeBlue seemed to only see things from one side.

I personally think that when you play a game with roleplaying elements you are actually entering an agreement with the devs, game master or whatever. In PnP table top games the game master should not seek to punish or win but to help the players tell a story. The dynamic is a bit more static in a MMO but it is similar, the devs are trying to provide a playground for us to tell our stories. We as players should not demand everything be spelled out in clear black and white but understand that some things are ambiguous to allow the devs or game master to provide us with more room to play.

So when someone wants to say ...in comics there are no...whatever it rings hollow. A comic is a story being told to you....a game is you co-writing the story with the devs. They are not interchangeable. They simple have different rules to follow.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Quote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:
Also....just looking at one of your examples....Cyclops....
He was a Energy-martial arts blaster with the fighting power pool. Try meeting the devs halfway.
Quote:
I suppose you could be feeling generous and say he had some sort of light armor Epic Power pool set, since he didn't wear it in the early days.
But that's only if you are feeling especially generous towards the argument.
Not that it really matters in this debate anyway.
.
.
The point I was trying to make was that not everything has to be defined by the devs. This was one example of how you can look at the game and make it fit with the comics. It was a direct comment on how CallMeBlue seemed to only see things from one side.
I personally think that when you play a game with roleplaying elements you are actually entering an agreement with the devs, game master or whatever. In PnP table top games the game master should not seek to punish or win but to help the players tell a story. The dynamic is a bit more static in a MMO but it is similar, the devs are trying to provide a playground for us to tell our stories. We as players should not demand everything be spelled out in clear black and white but understand that some things are ambiguous to allow the devs or game master to provide us with more room to play.
So when someone wants to say ...in comics there are no...whatever it rings hollow. A comic is a story being told to you....a game is you co-writing the story with the devs. They are not interchangeable. They simple have different rules to follow.

this... all of this.... yes....

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

So when someone wants to say ...in comics there are no...whatever it rings hollow. A comic is a story being told to you....a game is you co-writing the story with the devs. They are not interchangeable. They simple have different rules to follow.

Point made and "comicbook vs MMO mechanics" debate resolved. And it would be hard to put it much better than this.

While I can see the value in people wanting a set in this game because it happens to be popular in comicbooks, this perfectly illustrates that in spite of that, we shouldn't be using comicbooks to base which archetypes are doable or should exist.

Which actually bypasses and eliminates the need for my earlier argument that simple survivability wouldn't be a secondary in either comicbooks or a MMO but rather an across the board necessity to.. well. .survive.

Ahwell, win some, void some.

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I'm with islandtrevor72 and

I'm with islandtrevor72 and AmbiDreamer. One can certainly look to other media for inspiration and ideas, but comics, movies, and even single player games are not MMOs.

To paraphrase islandtrevor72's point about working with the devs to tell a story, comics, movies, etc. have the advantage that their stories are written for one main character (or a small group of characters), who are well known to the authors, while MMOs must present stories in such a fashion that any of a thousand different types of characters can be the main character.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Also....just looking at one of your examples....Cyclops....
He was a Energy-martial arts blaster with the fighting power pool. Try meeting the devs halfway.

To me this is the answer. I think the Devs are meeting us MORE than halfway, which is amazing.

I never had trouble coming plenty close enough to any classic theme that I tried for in CoH, and CoT will have even greater customization.

The only hole in the example above is "travel power", but there's another thread on that, and you HAVE to get around somehow in an MMORPG.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

you HAVE to get around somehow in an MMORPG.

In a movie, getting around is as easy as a scene change, or a fade out/in, or even the classic animated line moving on a map. In movies, the "travel" part gets skipped over.

In a comic book, getting around is as easy as turning the page. New page, new location! It's not like you spend several pages showing your character(s) weaving through traffic (unless it's a chase scene) or getting hung up at the airport/helipad/mooring tower/dock. Once again, the "travel" parts are boring and can be safely skipped over. Moving around isn't "interesting" in a comic book setting.

In an MMORPG ... travel can't be avoided ... except if you spend your entire life "living" inside of Architect Entertainment (in which case the phrase "Get A Life!" really does apply). In a game, Travel is a necessity for making the world look ... and feel ... LARGE and world-like. Players "hate" travel because it's boring and there's no "reward" for doing it (slower). It's also a time sink.

I remember thinking, after a while, that Paragon City was a really SMALL place. I could cross any zone on diagonal corners in 90 seconds or less. I could go from the most remote location in any zone to the most remote location in any other zone in less than 4 minutes, and often in less than 2 minutes, if not in less than 1 minute. That made the world, and the city, just feel ... tiny. I mean, seriously ... the longest straightaway road sections were found in Skyway on the highest bridges, and you could RUN on them for less than a minute to get from end to end.

Then I went to WoW after Issue 6 until Issue 9 came out (over two years later) and the world was just unimaginably HUGE! Simply running from one end of a continent to the other could take an HOUR ... a fact that got used in Easter Events requiring your character to run Kalimdor in order to go boil eggs in a hot spring (no, I'm not kidding). Traveling anywhere was both a time sink and an "expense" to be avoided, or at least one to be optimized.

Then I played Tabula Rasa, and there were teleporters everywhere, and zone transfers were from any zone to any zone. You could literally travel the entire length of the game from anywhere to anywhere in under a minute, once you'd activated all the transporters. It was insane. It trivialized movement and travel, which is kind of astonishing given that Tabula Rasa never implemented Mounts of any kind so you were always just running around.

I've played Star Trek Online, and that game turns travel (around the galaxy no less!) into practically a trivial pursuit. I can "tour the galaxy" hitting every single region in every quadrant in under 15 minutes in that game, which averages out to a sector block every 30-45 seconds or so ... and that's just with flying a "straight" route on not taking any of the shortcuts that are available. Again, travel is trivialized in such a way as to make the space volumes feel "small" rather than immense.

And I've played Elder Scrolls Online ... which has wayshrine teleporters. Again, this has the effect of making the world feel "small" after you've ventured through it for the first time. You can go from anywhere you've been to anywhere else you've been in 4 minutes or less ... despite the fact that the zones are in fact HUGE if you were to travel "normally" through them. The one exception to this is the PvP zone, where wayshrine fast travel has some restrictions put onto it, and the map itself is gigantormousuge in area ... such that traveling from keep to an adjacent keep on a mount can take 5+ minutes just to move through the intervening terrain.

So yeah ... travel is something you have to do in a MMORPG, because you don't really get the option to "skip ahead" in time like you have available to you in a movie or a comic book.

Personally, I preferred the way that WoW handled its Taxi Services, in that it was the game engine moving you around (by flying), rather than just hitting a loading screen and you're there. It reinforced the fact that the world was BBIIGG and that you were moving around and "through" the world, rather than just "skipping" past it all because it was boring. I also felt that having an extremely limited number of Taxi Service locations in regions was also the best way to handle things.

I know that City of Heroes players would have never put up with the rackety monorail tram in Paragon City if they literally had to get into the tram car and ride it to their destination. For one thing, those tram cars were SLOW! But I still prefer to think that "riding the subway" to get between zones would have been more interesting if you actually RODE the transportation method, rather than just zone teleporting to your chosen destination.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Personally, I preferred the way that WoW handled its Taxi Services, in that it was the game engine moving you around (by flying), rather than just hitting a loading screen and you're there. It reinforced the fact that the world was BBIIGG and that you were moving around and "through" the world, rather than just "skipping" past it all because it was boring. I also felt that having an extremely limited number of Taxi Service locations in regions was also the best way to handle things.
I know that City of Heroes players would have never put up with the rackety monorail tram in Paragon City if they literally had to get into the tram car and ride it to their destination. For one thing, those tram cars were SLOW! But I still prefer to think that "riding the subway" to get between zones would have been more interesting if you actually RODE the transportation method, rather than just zone teleporting to your chosen destination.

I feel the same way. There's definitely something to be said for a world that feels large. (It would take roughly 13 minutes to travel the length of Manhattan at 100 km/h.) I certainly have no objection to shortcuts / teleporters, though it would be almost criminal if one could get around Titan City in a manner that reduces it to a series of loading screens.

Besides, what's more heroic than riding about atop the train with one's cape flapping in the breeze?*



* I don't care what Edna says! Hmph!

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Besides, what's more heroic than riding about atop the train with one's cape flapping in the breeze?*
* I don't care what Edna says! Hmph!

But what about Rorschach?

"The First Nite Owl runs an autorepair shop. The first Silk Spectre is a bloated, aging whore dying in a California rest resort. Dollar Bill got his cape stuck on a revolving door where he got gunned down"

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Revolving doors are murderous

Revolving doors are murderous beasts. They don't care whether or not you've got a cape.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:
Besides, what's more heroic than riding about atop the train with one's cape flapping in the breeze?*
* I don't care what Edna says! Hmph!

But what about Rorschach?
"The First Nite Owl runs an autorepair shop. The first Silk Spectre is a bloated, aging whore dying in a California rest resort. Dollar Bill got his cape stuck on a revolving door where he got gunned down"

Watchmen was a deconstruction of supers not an example of playing it straight.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:
Besides, what's more heroic than riding about atop the train with one's cape flapping in the breeze?*
* I don't care what Edna says! Hmph!

But what about Rorschach?
"The First Nite Owl runs an autorepair shop. The first Silk Spectre is a bloated, aging whore dying in a California rest resort. Dollar Bill got his cape stuck on a revolving door where he got gunned down"

What about raw shark?
What?
On, yeah, I know who you mean.

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Well, at base, the power-set

Well, at base, the power-set schema simply isn't the best way to represent supers, precisely because of the huge variety in concepts. Point-buy systems allow rather precise combinations of abilities...at the risk of creating unworkable characters.

But I know that ship has sailed in CoT, and that's actually close to my original point. Allowing more variations on their master table of classes just opens up more possibility for self-expression among players. Some combinations shouldn't reasonably work, but players will find ways to get around the problems.

Some combinations certainly will be more advantageous than others, at least for narrow purposes; but that's always the case, isn't it? I believe fairly strongly that designing enough different and desirable content should prevent any one combo from being too useful in a multiplayer game.

One thing I think we all can agree upon is that travel powers should be widely available to supers...ideally at a fairly low level. It's funny how so many panels depict the Thing grappling someone, but not so many show him GETTING to his target.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Personally, I preferred the way that WoW handled its Taxi Services, in that it was the game engine moving you around (by flying), rather than just hitting a loading screen and you're there. It reinforced the fact that the world was BBIIGG and that you were moving around and "through" the world, rather than just "skipping" past it all because it was boring. I also felt that having an extremely limited number of Taxi Service locations in regions was also the best way to handle things.
I know that City of Heroes players would have never put up with the rackety monorail tram in Paragon City if they literally had to get into the tram car and ride it to their destination. For one thing, those tram cars were SLOW! But I still prefer to think that "riding the subway" to get between zones would have been more interesting if you actually RODE the transportation method, rather than just zone teleporting to your chosen destination.

The WoW style is why I also enjoy Wildstars taxi routes as well, because with the exception of swapping continents (this starts off the loading screen), you can go from zone to zone seamlessly[1]. And even without travel powers, it is always fun discovering what is over the hill (or what is actually beyond the mountains).

And yes, the Waypoint [2] system in Tabula Rasa did make the zones very small... infact the only time I used them was to provide back up for waypoint captures/defence... normally I would take the slow route and run (saved money as well in the long term...)

[1] Notable exception being the housing plot travel and the starting zones on planets, which typically have a loading zone to the "planet" starting area... but there is a reason for this, which you discover at level cap....

[2] The portable waypoint system made it *even smaller* on top of that as well seeing as you could jump from your location to anywhere that you had unlocked, and team mates could jump to YOUR location if you had dropped one as well...

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CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

Well, at base, the power-set schema simply isn't the best way to represent supers, precisely because of the huge variety in concepts. Point-buy systems allow rather precise combinations of abilities...at the risk of creating unworkable characters.
But I know that ship has sailed in CoT, and that's actually close to my original point. Allowing more variations on their master table of classes just opens up more possibility for self-expression among players. Some combinations shouldn't reasonably work, but players will find ways to get around the problems.
Some combinations certainly will be more advantageous than others, at least for narrow purposes; but that's always the case, isn't it? I believe fairly strongly that designing enough different and desirable content should prevent any one combo from being too useful in a multiplayer game.
One thing I think we all can agree upon is that travel powers should be widely available to supers...ideally at a fairly low level. It's funny how so many panels depict the Thing grappling someone, but not so many show him GETTING to his target.

Well if you haven't yet you should read this http://cityoftitans.com/forum/what-powers-are-going-be-please-sticky

And I believe travel powers are going to be something you can pick at first level :)

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Did the devs ever explain

Did the devs ever explain exactly what assault is, compared to melee and ranged?

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Consultant wrote:
Consultant wrote:

Did the devs ever explain exactly what assault is, compared to melee and ranged?

Assault is a grab bag of both ranged and melee attacks

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Thanks, I was thinking like

Thanks, I was thinking like breath of fire...short range stuff.

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Consultant wrote:
Consultant wrote:

Thanks, I was thinking like breath of fire...short range stuff.

Alright so if you haven't already read this and the links in it

http://cityoftitans.com/forum/what-powers-are-going-be-please-sticky

We are also updated on various things on the kickstarter for the game every Wednesday

http://cityoftitans.com/forum/kickstarter-update-reference-list

here is an organized version one of our fellow forumites put together to help newbies out.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page

and here is a wiki that would help you out with a lot of terminology as this is a game meant to capture the feeling of CoX

Please enjoy you're stay :)

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

DesViper
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On the ParagonWiki note, who

On the ParagonWiki note, who wants to start the City of Titans player wiki?


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JayBezz
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Already exists. Dev

Already exists. Dev generated wiki

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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Isn't part of the wonder of a

Isn't part of the wonder of a wiki that it's the product of players' work?

I guess having the devs let their wiki loose on the wilds of the interwebs is a solution....


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Already? Where can we find

Already? Where can we find it? ¡^_^!

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Has anyone seen the Wiki Web

Has anyone seen the Wiki Web Help project? http://wikiwebhelp.org/

It uses Wiki pages in a CHM treeview format. ;)
Should be a little easier to navigate

Im considering using it for my reference manual (testing here)

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SpaceMoose is the wiki-master

SpaceMoose is the wiki-master. As outlined here, he, Aquashock, and CPease61 use it (as I infer) to make sure that everything makes sense.

I'm hoping that at least some of that wiki will become available to us, eventually. Whether that may also include powers, power sets, etc., is a different question.

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

Support trap clowns for CoT!

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So, this wiki is a job for...

So, this wiki is a job for... SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!!!
I vaguely remember that update. I take it this wiki is not for general use yet?

edit: corrected spelling and punctuation of SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!!!
^_^

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