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Twitch Mechanics or Tab Mechanics? A Poll

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Comicsluvr
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Twitch Mechanics or Tab Mechanics? A Poll

This is a simple Poll to get an idea of our current followers. We have some fairly passionate threads going on right now (I won't bore you with details) with some people contesting this idea. I'm not intending for this to open yet another thread for debate or discussion...it's just a head count of yeas and nays. Let's keep it simple so we can tally the responses, resolve the dispute and move on please.

Would you prefer the Tab-to-target mechanic we had in CoH or would you prefer more of a twitch-style mechanic popular in many current games?

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

Gangrel
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Quote:
Quote:

Would you prefer the Tab-to-target mechanic we had in CoH or would you prefer more of a twitch-style mechanic popular in many current games?

CoX was not entirely tab targetting though... some abilities required you to use the mouse to aim them (ground targetted AOE's for example).

Or are you referring to the ability to "dodge" out of attacks?

Because Guild Wars 2 has *both* tab targetting and the ability to dodge (I believe Wildstar will have tab targetting, although you can manually aim if that gives you a better "result" instead of it being focused on the target. Wildstar also has a telegraphing system so you know to get out the way. I would say that Wildstar is more twitchy than GW2, at least from the videos)....

or are you thinking along the lines of TERA where you have to *aim* pretty much all of your attacks?

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4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Redlynne
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My preference was (and

My preference was (and remains) a hybrid of the two choices, where you use Twitch style mechanics for target acquisition, but once you have a Target in the center of your screen (in the Target Reticle) you have the option to Tab Lock and hold selection of that Target so long as that Target remains in view on your screen (meaning camera orientation and zoom distance could be important, but the tolerances are greatly relaxed once Tab Lock has been achieved). This was the system that Tabula Rasa used and it was extremely successful and very engaging to play because it involved the Player in ways that a Tab To Target system does not, making gameplay a more "active" experience that rewards situational awareness and "skill" better than the Tab To Target system does.

Twitch To Tab Lock offers the best of both worlds, and would be far more forgiving of network latency issues than any kind of pure Twitch style system (ala TERA and other games like it) would be able to tolerate. Twitch To Tab Lock is more "demanding" on the Player, than a pure Tab To Target scheme, but also offers a richer and more rewarding playing experience because it is more immersive to play.


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Gangrel
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I think that the problem here

I think that the problem here is that when some people use the term twitch gameplay, they are referring to a *range* of systems, where as using the term "tab to target" is *specifically* one system.

So, using the assumption that in this case it should be "Do you want a tab targetting, FPS or other targetting system", my answer would have to be "all depends on the power"

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3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Tab targeting in general.

Tab targeting in general. Location based powers can use a marker on the ground. No twitch dodging, blocking, or aiming. Like CoH did. I wouldn't be opposed to some variants of the tab targeting system, but the basic gameplay should be "target object, execute power, server calculates response".

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Hmmm...id pressed to choose

Hmmm...id pressed to choose just one, I'd vote TERA style over CoH style. But then I'm not only a person who enjoyed both games, much like Redlynne, a combination of both is what I'd do.

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I share the uncertainty as to

I share the uncertainty as to what exactly we're comparing.

However, if we're specifically talking about being able to avoid or reduce damage by some sort of "press spacebar to parry" or "move out of line of approaching arrow" system, that would be totally unsuitable for the super-powered theme of the game.

The player at the keyboard isn't super-powered. Even if I can dodge well enough to be a Super Reflexes Scrapper, maybe my beloved Aunt May can't. But to succeeed in its goals, the game has to let her play one if she wants. Superheroes are defined mechanically by their powers, not by connection speed or keyboard acrobatics.

edited to add: and as far as I'm concerned, that specific issue is non-negotiable. A superhero simulation where the player's keyboard/mouse input determined how super the character was might as well be a side-scrolling arcade game from 1986.

Captain of Phoenix Rising

Brand X
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Sailboat wrote:
Sailboat wrote:

I share the uncertainty as to what exactly we're comparing.
However, if we're specifically talking about being able to avoid or reduce damage by some sort of "press spacebar to parry" or "move out of line of approaching arrow" system, that would be totally unsuitable for the super-powered theme of the game.
The player at the keyboard isn't super-powered. Even if I can dodge well enough to be a Super Reflexes Scrapper, maybe my beloved Aunt May can't. But to succeeed in its goals, the game has to let her play one if she wants. Superheroes are defined mechanically by their powers, not by connection speed or keyboard acrobatics.

The game would allow her to play one if she wants. She'd just be getting hit more often than other heroes. Which, I'm pretty sure, happens in super hero comics.

Redlynne
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Sailboat wrote:
Sailboat wrote:

if we're specifically talking about being able to avoid or reduce damage by some sort of "press spacebar to parry" or "move out of line of approaching arrow" system, that would be totally unsuitable for the super-powered theme of the game.

In the interests of clarity, perhaps we could refer to such systems as Active Defense ("twitchy" if you prefer) that is reflex speed and timing sensitive so as to differentiate more clearly.

Tabula Rasa had an Active Acquisition system with a relaxed Tab Lock To Target capability which made it a hybrid style of gameplay. It did NOT have any kind of Active Defense (in the sense of Block and Dodge) other than the ability to Crouch (which would increase weapon accuracy and therefore damage throughput at the expense of Rooting your character in place) and the game mechanic of Cover (which reduced incoming damage for PCs and NPCs alike based on degrees of obscuration between Attacker and Target). The Cover system was more of an Environmental feature allowing Tabula Rasa to simulate things like hiding behind trees, using terrain features such as ridge lines, prepared defensive positions in fortifications, and so on, and it worked on a sort of "share of hitbox in Line of Sight" sort of way for determining reductions to incoming Damage (and I believe was even simplified into 25% stair steps of strength from 0% to 100% damage reduction from Cover). Use of Crouch could change the shape of your hitbox, so in a way it was possible sometimes for Crouch to add a Cover bonus to you when taking fire, but it was a very situational kind of thing and very much a Your Mileage May Vary sort of deal.

So by those definitional terms, Tabula Rasa had hybrid system of Target Acquisition, including its Tab To Target Lock system as detailed previously and elsewhere ... while any kind of Active Defense was based purely on Relative Position environmental factors (were you behind Cover or not) as opposed to being dependent on any sort of Active Block/Dodge action where the Player could Click To Defend. Perhaps the best way to think of the Tabula Rasa UI system would be in terms of "City of Heroes PLUS" rather than as an outright replacement.

By contrast, newer games such as TERA, with its Active Combat System, are fully "twitch" driven systems for both Offense and Defense. TERA does NOT allow Tab Locking To Target, so the Player must actively "drive" the character at all times in order to be effective, and includes both Block and Dodge mechanics which require fast (read: "twitchy") reflexes and connection speeds in order to be most effective/efficient. The gameplay is complex and challenging (and fun if you enjoy that sort of thing), but also in some respects unforgiving of players with either poor reflexes, high network latencies, or both.

So to be clear ... I am in favor of a system that is more like Tabula Rasa, which was a "City of Heroes PLUS" kind of hybrid gameplay experience with a "twitchy" Target Acquisition that allowed a Tab Lock To Target relaxation and without any sort of overtly "twitchy" Active Defenses other than the environmental Cover system that rewarded clever use of Terrain between Attacker and Defender. I am NOT in favor of a pure Active Combat System like TERA has which relies on both "twitchy" Target Acquisition at ALL times and a "twitchy" Active Defense scheme involving Blocking/Dodging and "being where the Damage isn't going" positional demands.


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Redlynne
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

The game would allow her to play one if she wants. She'd just be getting hit more often than other heroes. Which, I'm pretty sure, happens in super hero comics.

Yes ... but that would also mean that the only type of hero she could manage to play would be the types that get hit more often than other heroes. At that point you're penalizing the Player for being who they are, which is not the message you want your game to be sending to your community at large (and particularly not to newcomers and casual gamers).


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I like the hybrid choice that

I like the hybrid choice that Redlynne is peddling. Sounds like it'd speed up combat a bit, and make it feel heroic.

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Threads about combat will

Threads about combat will always bother me. Its almost like everyone forgets that COX died. Constant screams of "Do how Cox did!" and "Make a Cox clone!" Makes me wonder if you guys remember how Cox turned out. You can't just upgrade the graphics and say "It can complete with the others now! :D" That being said I personally think that the Hybrid of both mentioned above is a great idea. For those who want abit more actiony combat vs those who like to point click and attack.

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Alright, but I use 'Tab

Alright, but I use 'Tab targeting' (remapped to other keys) almost exclusively. My hands are on the keyboard during combat, controlling movement and attacks, and my mouse is --> over there. It is... very inconvenient to switch controls all the time.

I do use the mouse to select initial targets, sometimes, or to place an AoE, but most of the time I just 'Target Nearest' and 'Target Next' until I have the one I want. I don't have a fancy mouse with a hundred buttons and, if I did, I doubt I could use it as precisely as the NumPad.

I can handle 'avoid the glowing patch' for damage avoidance, like in SWTOR, but that's more 'timed' than 'twitch'. In CO, with its 'Block the Whammy' mechanic, I've essentially built my character to have shields all the time and IGNORE the 'twitch requirement' because I can never seem to do it. Either I block too soon, which roots me and/or prevents me from doing what I need to, or I block too late, which does no good at all.

I could handle a Proactive Block, where I throw up a shield in anticipation of being attacked and it stays up until it absorbs the attack, but not if it's going to Root me. I need to keep moving and getting on with my own attacks. A Reactive, 'twitch' defense is no good for me.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I don't know why we needed

I don't know why we needed another thread on this topic. It's been asked and answered as far as I am aware.

What we really need is a list of what will be and what won't be, what has already been decided so that people can just stop debating things or taking polls when the debate is over.

Well, I suppose that there will still be those that insist on beating a dead horse, there always has been and will be, but at least there may be less of it.

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I'm agreeing on both sides

I'm agreeing on both sides here... Which doesn't help, I know, but here are my thoughts.

I'm not a fan of twitch combat in an MMO. More times than naught I've found it just doesn't work, and sometimes it's because of something as silly as lag (if my connection was 2ms faster I would've totally dodged that!). And I know my wife (who absolutely adored CoX) hates it with a passion.

At the same time, the stand there and spam powers also isn't the most fun. I didn't like that if an enemy threw a flare at me, it would "track" me with a predetermined hit or miss - that determination having been made at the time of the attack, not at the time of impact.

I think movement should be taken into account (avoid the glowy patch area, duck behind that building to avoid the fireball, and so on), but at at the same time realize that someone whose toon uses a gun is going to hit way more often than that spellcaster throwing slower moving flares and fireballs, and that would make everyone want to be a gunslinger because they twink at PvP.

I am a fan of recharge times; even super heroes can't spam their powers forever. Those big powerful attacks take time build up energy for, load the ammo, chargin' my lazerz, etc. I think recharge times accurately reflect this, and the endurance cost in them reflects that making the attack takes something out of the hero; leaves them weaker.

I definitely don't have the answers here. If you can avoid a fireball, can you also accidentally avoid that group heal? If your endurance gets low, do your attacks do less damage and do you take more damage as a result of being reckless? Can a hero with super speed avoid that bullet, but a regular hero has to take the hit? Would it be possible to program the game mechanics that a player controlling a super speed hero actually have enemy attacks SLOW DOWN for them so that they can avoid them?

Food for thought...

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Tab targeting, please.

Tab targeting, please.

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Tab Targeting.

Tab Targeting.

I think we both have a fairly different idea of what "twitch" means.. but none-the-less.. don't lose tab targeting.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Brand X wrote:
The game would allow her to play one if she wants. She'd just be getting hit more often than other heroes. Which, I'm pretty sure, happens in super hero comics.
Yes ... but that would also mean that the only type of hero she could manage to play would be the types that get hit more often than other heroes. At that point you're penalizing the Player for being who they are, which is not the message you want your game to be sending to your community at large (and particularly not to newcomers and casual gamers).

In addition to Redlynne's point about penalizing the player, I'll clarify that "getting hit more often than other heroes" does NOT happen in comics -- not because of the way you, the reader, are holding the comic book. It only happens based on the character's powers and the requirements of the story. The user (comic book reader) isn't going to cause Daredevil to take damage if he or she fumbles with the pages.

Captain of Phoenix Rising

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I'm with Fireheart and a few

I'm with Fireheart and a few others here.
In CoH, my hands were on the keyboard almost exclusively, excepting the very few powers that were targeted AOE.

I am not a console gamer.
I am not an FPS gamer.
Simplicity is what I prefer.
I do not like twitchy games, no sir.
I do not want twitchy hands.

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So, does that mean that you

So, does that mean that you *want* to be able to move out of the way of attacks (just by using movement keys) or does that mean that if you are in the middle of an attack, you will take the blow no matter what (even if you could cancel the activation of an ability?)

Would it help if there was a notification telling you *where* the attack would be landing, so that even pre-emptivly, you could move out of the way of it?

*edit* I would like to add that this *doesn't* necessarily mean that you have to use the mouse at all.... it can be handy, but if there is an option to increase/decrease the turning speed of your character (if you are using a keyboard), I believe that potentially some complaints might be removed.

Sure, the mouse could be faster, but if the keyboard is not an order of magnitude slower, it could work

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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I prefer tab targeting.

I prefer tab targeting.

I played Doom and similar games back in the day. The constant 2-axis twirling needed to target enemies always made me nauseated. Somehow the camera movement in CoH didn't bother me all that much.

I also couldn't target fast-moving entities in CoH with just my mouse. I'm not quick or accurate enough. I suppose that's not likely to be a huge problem as long as it's only the player characters darting around in combat with Super Speed or Quickness.

As for twitch dodging, my slow connection always choked when Protean started up his Lag Storm attack. The only way I could fight him at all is by jousting. If twitch dodging is included, I'd rather it not be required for any character build, and not required in most missions.

I'm sure the last two issues could be solved with technology. Mouse aiming shouldn't require clicking exactly on the navel of a character who's jinking inertialessly at 60-80 miles an hour, and perhaps Red Rings of Death Dodging can be implemented without needing huge data spikes. Probably my problems in those two areas were because CoH was never designed to support mouse targeting or dodging.

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I'd like tab targeting,

I'd like tab targeting, please. Pretty much the same as CoX did, though I'm not averse to the devs' trying out some added features as long as the core is the same. I do not want any sort of active block/dodge mechanic.

Ikkcarus Aybss wrote:

Threads about combat will always bother me. Its almost like everyone forgets that COX died.

CoX didn't die; it was killed. There's a big difference. Even if it was some flaw in the game that caused it to be killed (which I do not believe) there is no evidence it was the combat system.

MWM has already listed a whole bunch of improvements they plan to add to the old model in areas other than combat; to paraphrase what Warcabbit said in this article (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/interviews/10706-Resurrecting-the-Superhero-MMO-City-of-Titans-Q-A#DKTvdY0lKEfPRYt5.99),
why fix what ain't broke?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

CoX didn't die; it was killed.

The turn of phrase you're looking for Cinnder is "murdered for a quick buck by money grubbing idi-"
NO CARRIER


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Redlynne
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Perhaps this video can supply

Perhaps this video can supply some useful perspectives for people as to why MMO Combat is the way it is.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Brand X wrote:
The game would allow her to play one if she wants. She'd just be getting hit more often than other heroes. Which, I'm pretty sure, happens in super hero comics.
Yes ... but that would also mean that the only type of hero she could manage to play would be the types that get hit more often than other heroes. At that point you're penalizing the Player for being who they are, which is not the message you want your game to be sending to your community at large (and particularly not to newcomers and casual gamers).

Not really, and TERA had plenty of newcomers and casuals with it's combat system. I was in guilds with them, and I occaissionally PuGed with them (I say occaissionally because TERA is very solo friendly, and imo encouraged with it not having a sidekick system and a way for players to share quests).

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

The turn of phrase you're looking for Cinnder is "murdered for a quick buck by money grubbing idi-"NO CARRIER

LOL.

Interesting video. Seems a good cogent explanation. Though I'm not sure he knows what "nonsequitur" means. :-)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

My preference was (and remains) a hybrid of the two choices, where you use Twitch style mechanics for target acquisition, but once you have a Target in the center of your screen (in the Target Reticle) you have the option to Tab Lock and hold selection of that Target so long as that Target remains in view on your screen (meaning camera orientation and zoom distance could be important, but the tolerances are greatly relaxed once Tab Lock has been achieved). This was the system that Tabula Rasa used and it was extremely successful and very engaging to play because it involved the Player in ways that a Tab To Target system does not, making gameplay a more "active" experience that rewards situational awareness and "skill" better than the Tab To Target system does.
Twitch To Tab Lock offers the best of both worlds, and would be far more forgiving of network latency issues than any kind of pure Twitch style system (ala TERA and other games like it) would be able to tolerate. Twitch To Tab Lock is more "demanding" on the Player, than a pure Tab To Target scheme, but also offers a richer and more rewarding playing experience because it is more immersive to play.

I was suggesting more of a hybrid as well, like tabula rassa and guild wars 2. So honestly I vote for both, not just strictly one or the other. I was in favor of a nice blend and compromise, but I got called a bully for even suggesting it. *shrugs*

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I watched that video, and it

I watched that video, and it did make me think about cost effectiveness and the like. Perhaps we could have a system where it's pseudo action combat, to where it still uses action combat. I'll be making a thread further detailing my idea.

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Tab target, hands down. *I*

Tab target, hands down. *I* do not want to be doing the fighting. I want my character to be doing the fighting. Please no action combat simulation.

- Al

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Am also a fan of tab

Am also a fan of tab targeting.

BIZZARO MEDIA FOLLOWER

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I join those who want to keep

I join those who want to keep City of Heroes' system in this regard! In particular I agree to the "Character vs. Player" argument.

Lin Chiao Feng
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The sticky-targeting

The sticky-targeting mechanism in Tabula Rasa worked quite well because, at its base, Tabula Rasa is a shooting game. Your weapon had two firing modes, corresponding to the two buttons on the mouse. Force Logos powers were triggered by the number row, as well as weapon switches. Easy-peasy.

CoX (and likely CoT) does not have this powers concept in the first place. It's not a shooter. The AR and DP sets were basically shoehorned into working like other powersets and less like shooter games. So gunsight targeting and click-to-shoot would be suboptimal, unless they want to make some powers work that way. Which would be awesome, but I doubt they will. So tab targeting is really the only thing that can make sense.

That said, it would be neat if, in addition to the regular targeting controls, I could turn on a "boresight" on the screen and have a key for "select target in boresight". But it's still really tab targeting at heart.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Lin, that 'boresight' model

Lin, that 'boresight' model might be very effective for Cones.

Many times, I had to be very finicky and fidgety in order to get my tab-targeted cone to cover the desired pattern of enemies. The trick would be to figure out a way to aim the 'boresight' when/if the character facing is not the same as the camera facing. Or... to be able to direct the 'boresight' independently of Camera and Character.

That was one advantage of tab targeting - you could hit your intended target, even if your character and camera were not directly facing the target.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I liked being able to Tab

I liked being able to Tab-target with my own keybinds (Tab for nearest, Alt+Tab for Next, etc) as well as click on the target as I wanted to.
Best of both worlds.

I would also like to see the possibility of an 'Effect Outline' when I hover over a Power icon. This displays on my screen only where the power would take effect.
So for a ST Melee attack it would be a 1 meter very thin line.
For a 90 degree Cone Melee attack it would be a 1 meter 90 degree cone.
For 1 ST Ranged attack it would be a 30 meter thin line.
For a PBAoE attack it would be a full circle outline of the radius of the effect
Etc etc

I should be able to either turn this off or on via the Options or even with a hotkey. So I hold down the key and only when I move my cursor over the power icon the 'silk screen' appears.

The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

I liked being able to Tab-target with my own keybinds (Tab for nearest, Alt+Tab for Next, etc) as well as click on the target as I wanted to.
Best of both worlds.
I would also like to see the possibility of an 'Effect Outline' when I hover over a Power icon. This displays on my screen only where the power would take effect.
So for a ST Melee attack it would be a 1 meter very thin line.
For a 90 degree Cone Melee attack it would be a 1 meter 90 degree cone.
For 1 ST Ranged attack it would be a 30 meter thin line.
For a PBAoE attack it would be a full circle outline of the radius of the effect
Etc etc
I should be able to either turn this off or on via the Options or even with a hotkey. So I hold down the key and only when I move my cursor over the power icon the 'silk screen' appears.

Looks like someone has been looking at Wildstar gameplay videos

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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In Star Trek Online, when you

In Star Trek Online, when you're in space, various weapon types have firing arcs, and it helps to be able to see those arcs visually on demand. Star Trek Online uses a similar "show me the arc" overlay when you've got your mouse cursor hovering over the weapon type to let you see the arc the weapon covers. This also includes Bridge Officer Skills as well for "special abilities" because some of them are also limited by arcs if they're offensive in nature (either attacks or debuffs).


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Lin Chiao Feng
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Lin, that 'boresight' model might be very effective for Cones.
Many times, I had to be very finicky and fidgety in order to get my tab-targeted cone to cover the desired pattern of enemies. The trick would be to figure out a way to aim the 'boresight' when/if the character facing is not the same as the camera facing. Or... to be able to direct the 'boresight' independently of Camera and Character.

In Tabula Rasa, cones always worked like that. They disabled the sticky-reticle feature. It worked really good. Of course, the cone for a shotgun in TR was something like 90 degrees wide, so your shotgun would hit almost everything on the screen.

Fireheart wrote:

That was one advantage of tab targeting - you could hit your intended target, even if your character and camera were not directly facing the target.

Yep.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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+1 tabbing

+1 tabbing

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Homeless.

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Tab.

Tab.

Reflexes aside, consider that you're looking at 300+ latency in some parts of the world. That kind of delay would either require client-side handling, with all the security holes that implies, or nigh-unplayability due to lag.

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I'm going to have to side

I'm going to have to side with the old school CoX Tab targeting style. It was much easier to use when you have lag (And living in the middle of nowhere, that is an issue for me, time to time) then using a twitchy dodge/block mechanic. This isn't to say it can't work out, or work out well, just that I prefer the CoX style where I'm more worried about my attack cycle, whether I should pop a Purple now or wait, or if now is the time to use my heal.

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Tab. Anything that lets me

Tab. Anything that lets me identify my target in a keypress. The fewer the better, with programmable keys being the ultimate.

Adding: The actual process of shooting (whether I hit or miss) should be up to my superhero. I'm not actually super. But she is.

Adding: Could we add "hit everyone / hit random / hit closest / do not hit caster" as Confuse outcomes? I mean, if we're going to call it "confuse"... :)

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Tab. No twitch, no dodge.

Tab. No twitch, no dodge.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

cybermitheral wrote:
I liked being able to Tab-target with my own keybinds (Tab for nearest, Alt+Tab for Next, etc) as well as click on the target as I wanted to.
Best of both worlds.
I would also like to see the possibility of an 'Effect Outline' when I hover over a Power icon. This displays on my screen only where the power would take effect.
So for a ST Melee attack it would be a 1 meter very thin line.
For a 90 degree Cone Melee attack it would be a 1 meter 90 degree cone.
For 1 ST Ranged attack it would be a 30 meter thin line.
For a PBAoE attack it would be a full circle outline of the radius of the effect
Etc etc
I should be able to either turn this off or on via the Options or even with a hotkey. So I hold down the key and only when I move my cursor over the power icon the 'silk screen' appears.

Looks like someone has been looking at Wildstar gameplay videos

Actually Marvel Heroes :) Although in that game the powers only show their 'silk screen' when you are out of a combat area (Stark Tower, X-Men Mansion, etc)

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

Gangrel wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:
I liked being able to Tab-target with my own keybinds (Tab for nearest, Alt+Tab for Next, etc) as well as click on the target as I wanted to.
Best of both worlds.
I would also like to see the possibility of an 'Effect Outline' when I hover over a Power icon. This displays on my screen only where the power would take effect.
So for a ST Melee attack it would be a 1 meter very thin line.
For a 90 degree Cone Melee attack it would be a 1 meter 90 degree cone.
For 1 ST Ranged attack it would be a 30 meter thin line.
For a PBAoE attack it would be a full circle outline of the radius of the effect
Etc etc
I should be able to either turn this off or on via the Options or even with a hotkey. So I hold down the key and only when I move my cursor over the power icon the 'silk screen' appears.

Looks like someone has been looking at Wildstar gameplay videos

Actually Marvel Heroes :) Although in that game the powers only show their 'silk screen' when you are out of a combat area (Stark Tower, X-Men Mansion, etc)

I never knew that (not installed/played the game yet), but thanks for the info.

I know that in Wildstar, when you hold down the button, it will show you the "telegraph" of the ability, and a quick google search shows that Tab Targetting is *in* that game as well.

You can however, manually aim the abilities as well, so that if the cone/AOE is not quite where you want it (so maybe you want it a bit off to the right of a mob, to hit more of them, or back a bit so that you heal more players), you can do so.

So that is a hybrid of both. Is it tab targetting? Yep, its in.

Is it more "hands on" like how AOE's in CoX where? Yep.

The only thing that I can see that makes this more "twitch" is that you get told/shown when you are in "a bad place to be", so that you can move out of the way.

For me, this makes me feel more in control of the character, that I am actually THE character on the screen, and not just a digital representation of what I am playing. When I am in the area of attack, I know that I am going to get hurt, and that maybe, just maybe I might get out relatively unscathed. But just standing there, pressing a button and then letting the server decide if i live or die, because movement makes NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER, removes, for me at least, the sense of achievement for when I do live. Why should I get attached to a character when I know that the server can "cheat and kill me", even when I am behind a wall... when I should have been out of range for the AOE?

There are classes in Wildstar that *can* stand and attack, there are others that cannot do it (just like in CoX, where you had to keep mobs at range (generally) for a blaster, whilst the tanker/brute/scrapper could stay close up).

I remember seeing on the CoX boards, that people complained (both sides) about the (i believe it was in Keyes reactor) about the "large red circles" that were used.

Some were complaining that the number of effects from other players made it hard to see (fair complaint, when a lot of AOE's were running in CoX it was hard to tell what was going on sometimes, even with giant mobs),
that they still got hit when they thought they had moved out (semi fair, could have been lag induced, or the AOE wasnt exactly mapped to the representation of it),
others complained that due to rooting it was unfair, because once you started an animation for an attack, the long wind up powers were unfairly penalised (fair comment).
Others also complained that they were "forced to move" (not so valid a complaint in my opinion)

But if you know that something is coming, and you *stay* and take it (for whatever reason), is it a valid complaint to say that the mechanic is not "fair"?

If you had (for example) 3 seconds to move out of the way of a mobs attack, would that be "long enough warning" to move out of the way? Would that make it "twitch" gameplay?

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Impish Kat wrote:
Impish Kat wrote:

I'm with Fireheart and a few others here.
In CoH, my hands were on the keyboard almost exclusively, excepting the very few powers that were targeted AOE.
I am not a console gamer.
I am not an FPS gamer.
Simplicity is what I prefer.
I do not like twitchy games, no sir.
I do not want twitchy hands.

Personal unofficial opinion:

This pretty much says it all for me. I feel that CoH had a very much non traditional MMO clientele many of whom were older and less twitchy than the people who played other games. While we don't have to do what CoH did, as a spiritual successor we need to appeal to the people that liked CoH, while trying to also appeal to new people. This I feel makes tab targeting essential.

Having played with NW's system, I find myself constantly getting frustrated by being unable to target a small monster standing marginally in front of a larger one, because the targeting reticle is circular, the large creature's reticle comes further towards me and any attempt to target the small one fails.

Tech Team and Forum Moderator

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I believe that there is room

I believe that there is room for *both* in the game.... both a tab targetting and a "Freeform targetting" (for better or worse terminology), with tab targetting being the ability to *quickly* and accurately pick up mobs, and the freeform targetting part to adjust where it goes (because, let be fair, it wont always be where you want it to be, especially for AOE's)

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Put me down for Tabbing as

Put me down for Tabbing as well.

I kamehameha'd your mom

Gangrel
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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

I believe that there is room for *both* in the game.... both a tab targeting and a "Freeform targeting" (for better or worse terminology), with tab targetting being the ability to *quickly* and accurately pick up mobs, and the freeform targeting part to adjust where it goes (because, let be fair, it wont always be where you want it to be, especially for AOE's)

I forgot to add, in TR, all of your weapons could be used without anything being targeted, and the same for the vast majority of abilities (if i remember correctly that is).

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

srmalloy
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Minotaur wrote:
Minotaur wrote:

I feel that CoH had a very much non traditional MMO clientele many of whom were older and less twitchy than the people who played other games. While we don't have to do what CoH did, as a spiritual successor we need to appeal to the people that liked CoH, while trying to also appeal to new people. This I feel makes tab targeting essential.

Not only older players not raised on twitch gaming, but much younger players who don't have that degree of coordination yet. One of the things that came up again and again in the forums was someone talking about letting their young child play CoH, both because of its accessibility and the attitude of the playerbase; if we want to make CoT the same "safe to let your kids run loose" game, then we will want to preserve the features that made it possible for young children to play and enjoy the game.

Gangrel
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srmalloy wrote:
srmalloy wrote:

Minotaur wrote:
I feel that CoH had a very much non traditional MMO clientele many of whom were older and less twitchy than the people who played other games. While we don't have to do what CoH did, as a spiritual successor we need to appeal to the people that liked CoH, while trying to also appeal to new people. This I feel makes tab targeting essential.
Not only older players not raised on twitch gaming, but much younger players who don't have that degree of coordination yet. One of the things that came up again and again in the forums was someone talking about letting their young child play CoH, both because of its accessibility and the attitude of the playerbase; if we want to make CoT the same "safe to let your kids run loose" game, then we will want to preserve the features that made it possible for young children to play and enjoy the game.

How young are we talking about? because I knew (back in the day) 8-9 year olds who were good with controllers. Keyboard and mouse... not so much, but give them a gamepad and away they went.

But of course, I can see people here not wanting gamepad support (which is a shame though, because I feel that setup is *easier* for the younglings.... there are less keys/buttons for them to work with, and as long as the controls are *similar* to other games out there, there wont be as much trouble for them to pick it up)

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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I have yet to see a 'gamepad'

I have yet to see a 'gamepad' driven game that played at all nicely with a keyboard.

Be Well!
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However, I have played

However, I have played keyboard driven games quite nicely with a gamepad. It all depends as to *how* the controls are set up.

I know people who play the Batman Arkham series of games with a controller, whilst others play it with the keyboard. Same with Deadspace/Borderlands. Hell, I played CO with a gamepad AND keyboard/mouse setup, all depending on my mood at the time.

And I played CoX with a controller occasionally. Some classes were easier than others to be fair (I know someone who could only play dual blades with a controller for some strange reason)

I will note: The X-Box controller that some people use is a real pig to use in some games, because the game might not let you *easily* redefine what the controls do; whilst a more "programmable" gamepad, instead lets you map the keyboard presses as button presses, so pressing button A would be like pressing "3" on the keyboard. And what ever 3 does on the keyboard is what actually happens.

And FF14:ARR (Final Fantasy 14: A Realm Reborn) is apparently *VERY* playable with just a controller.... although a keyboard is still recommended for chatting to other players.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Minotaur wrote:
Minotaur wrote:

Having played with NW's system, I find myself constantly getting frustrated by being unable to target a small monster standing marginally in front of a larger one, because the targeting reticle is circular, the large creature's reticle comes further towards me and any attempt to target the small one fails.

While I totally agree about NW, I do think some level of "updating" should be sought after in a "spiritual successor"
The whole point of succession is NEWNESS....

That said, I do much prefer tab targeting to "twitch" targeting, as it allows for (to me) a tighter level of control while managing multiple abilities.
While I have never liked how Champions Online structured its powers-combat dynamic, I DO like the more "actiony" feel that game had, over COX....

...and i think that something of a hybrid of the two paradigms would produce something that felt "fresh" without alienating COX alums.

basically, I'd like to see tab-targeting remain, but to include elements that provide a more action-oriented experience (quck-click, or non-cooldown styled attacks, manual charge attacks and manual block or dodge mechanics) and removing of some quirks of COX that limited the sense of fluidity (minimizing cast-rooting would go a long way towards making combat feel more "active")

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GhostHack wrote:
GhostHack wrote:

While I totally agree about NW, I do think some level of "updating" should be sought after in a "spiritual successor"

I agree, but I think the innovations MWM has already told us about in other areas are what they should focus on. Combat worked well in CoX for many reasons; why fix what ain't broke?

Which is kinda what Warcabbit has already said in Question 2 here:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/interviews/10706-Resurrecting-the-Superhero-MMO-City-of-Titans-Q-A#DKTvdY0lKEfPRYt5.99

Spurn all ye kindle.

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that implies that I'm

that implies that I'm suggesting a "fix"

....evolution isn't "fixing" the past, it is adapting to the future.

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Tab/traditional MMO controls

Tab/traditional MMO controls all the way for me.

Just remember - CoT is in the spirit of CoH, it is not CoH!

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hybrid of both.

hybrid of both.

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My personal preference would

My personal preference would be tab by default, twitch as an option. We'll see.

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I have been playing DC off

I have been playing DC off and on since it went live. I hate the twitch mechanics of the game. The different combos that you haft to use for the mouse is very confusing and hard to remember, you can tell the game was designed to be used on a console with game pads. Don't like the block mechanics, it is hard for me to actuall one, remember to use it and two, to actually hunt the key down(shift). The cox had it nice and simple like most other mmo. Now if you want to add chain attacks like Aion, that would be cool, would make it more interesting and interactive but not like DC, and love the idea of being able to move behind something to dodge an attack instead of having a heat seeking fireball follow an ice tank around the corner.

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altoidboi71 wrote:
altoidboi71 wrote:

I have been playing DC off and on since it went live. I hate the twitch mechanics of the game. The different combos that you haft to use for the mouse is very confusing and hard to remember, you can tell the game was designed to be used on a console with game pads.

On a similar note to this, I find myself becoming annoyed during combat playing SWTOR because it lacks the 'queued attack' mechanic that CoH had; abilities in SWTOR can have an ability-specific recharge rate, and all abilities are subject to the "global cooldown" -- a forced delay between activating an ability and activating the next ability; if the ability animation duration exceeds the global cooldown, you can use another ability immediately after the preceding animation finishes, but fast-animating abilities leave you with a gap in which you can't use any abilities, and without being able to queue an attack, in order to avoid slowing down your attack chain, you have to watch your screen to track the visual indicator of the global cooldown so that you fire your next ability as soon as the cooldown expires, making it sort of a twitch-gaming experience if you're trying to get the best activation rate.

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As I've mentioned elsewhere,

As I've mentioned elsewhere, but I'll repeat here since it seems to be relevant ... anything that "requires" a reaction speed time of 1 second or less on the part of the Player (ie. literally split second timing) ought to properly be considered something "twitchy" due to the time sensitive nature of the action or activity. I can even envision wanting to stretch that out to being as long as 1.5 seconds or less, since a 1.5 second time frame is often used as the foundational building block for Global Cooldowns in a lot of MMORPGs ... although some games (such as World of Warcraft) have historically allowed modifiers to affect this 1.5 second Global Cooldown in certain "developer approved" ways down to being a 1.0 second Global Cooldown in certain circumstances.

For me, it is that "realtime reaction demand" of needing Player interactions to happen within 1.0-1.5 seconds or less that will make a game play in a "twitchy" fashion. This kind of split second timing is most commonly associated with Blocking, Dodging and other "reactive" mitigation mechanics to changing conditions. Anything over a 1.5 second time frame becomes progressively "less twitchy" until reaching what amounts to a "luxurious" window of opportunity to respond to changing conditions at 3+ seconds that feels somewhat "lazy" in terms of reaction speeds.


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Tab Targeting.

Tab Targeting.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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One reason why I have not

One reason why I have not found a new MMORPG home is because I do not enjoy twitch mechanics at all. They are very frustrating and not at all fun for me. Folks can talk about evolution all they want, but I have tried mechanics like that and have no interest in "evolving" towards them. As others have stated, COH had a dedicated fanbase that enjoyed COH-style combat. I would be less interested in a mmorpg that did not preserve COH's combat mechanics, not because of spite, but because they genuinely don't appeal to me.

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Young Tutor wrote:
Young Tutor wrote:

One reason why I have not found a new MMORPG home is because I do not enjoy twitch mechanics at all. They are very frustrating and not at all fun for me. Folks can talk about evolution all they want, but I have tried mechanics like that and have no interest in "evolving" towards them. As others have stated, COH had a dedicated fanbase that enjoyed COH-style combat. I would be less interested in a mmorpg that did not preserve COH's combat mechanics, not because of spite, but because they genuinely don't appeal to me.

There are plenty of MMORPGs out there that are not twitch mechanics.

WoW. Scarlet Blade. In fact, Scarlet Blade felt very similar to CoH's combat style.