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Twitch and you

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Northie
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Twitch and you

The talk about twich mechanics in another thread made me wonder what exactly do people consider as twitch combat. The game won't have twitch combat but from that thread I gathered many elements that I don't even consider as twitch combat are to be excluded.

I know it sounds arrogant but I'm trying to decide if this game is something I should be interested in following. Honestly it has less to do with arrogance and more to do with having very limited time so I would rather spend it in following games I know I will like. I played CoH for over five years with multiple breaks in between when I got bored of the slow and immobile combat and boring box-like mission design. I kept coming back as it had awesome level of character and power customizability but other games with more interesting mechanics came out. These games were not superhero games however or then had silly cartoony graphics and lacked customization.

For me following elements are *not* twitch combat:

  • Forcing ranged characters to keep distance from melee range
  • Movevement to block projectiles by breaking line of effect (including behind other characters)
  • Movement to avoid AoE patches and powers
  • Executing attacks in proper order
  • Ground targetted AoEs
  • Channeled or charged attacks
  • Endurance and timer free basic attacks (= animation length recharge)
  • Moving while attacking
  • Body blocking

For me following elements are twitch combat:

  • Dodging or blocking instantly as a reaction to incoming attack
  • Using instant interrupting attack to "break" casting of attack (as opposed to adding a debuff that prevents actions)
  • System where all attacks are non-targetted and require instantaneous reactions

For me twitch is something that requires instant reaction to incoming attack or when delivering attack. It's twich combat if you have to dodge, block or interrupt attacks within very short timeframe or run around like a headless chicken to avoid getting hit. Requiring fast reflexes is what makes some combat twitch. Not a specific mechanic. Mobile combat is not automatically twitch. Neither is combat where you utilize environment to your advantage or where you need to selectively use your powers depending on the situation.

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As long as CoT doesn't adopt

As long as CoT doesn't adopt the playstyle of Dragon's Lair I'll probably be fine with it. I realize citing a 30 year old arcade game as my example of a "twitch" game may not be that helpful in this context, but for me that still represents the most extreme form of annoying unplayablity that I hope never gets repeated in MMO form.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Carmageddon 2. I loved the

Carmageddon 2. I loved the first one. Second one came out and it was required to go through a 'trial series' to go to the next level. This involved precision driving and jumping your car through the air at...well you see what I mean. I attempted the trial about 20 times and after that I closed it down and returned the game. I don't recall hearing any great strides for that franchise anytime recently either.

I'm an older guy with bad eyesight, worse reflexes and a lazy playstyle. You want me to spend hours planning a build and then weeks leveling it up and accumulating gear for it? I'm okay with that because I can do it at whatever pace I want. I stayed away from many of the TFs and Incarnate stuff because of the frantic pace of it all.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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<.derail>

<.derail>
Carmageddon (original) has been released on android and iOS devices again. I got it cos a friend of mine works for Stainless Games. They are working on the 4th game in the series (last one was released back in 2000)
<./derail>

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Ground targetted AoEs

Ground targetted AoEs

As someone who really likes Perception Control I have to say that IF the game has tab targeting I do not want someone to be able to target the area in which I have created a psychic "placate" effect.

Thus I want devs to veto ground targeting altogether

Long Live Controllers.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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So you're saying, no aoe at

So you're saying, no aoe at all in the game? ._.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Ground targetted AoEs
As someone who really likes Perception Control I have to say that IF the game has tab targeting I do not want someone to be able to target the area in which I have created a psychic "placate" effect.
Thus I want devs to veto ground targeting altogether
Long Live Controllers.

That's ok...just so long as you are not dumb enough to walk into an AOE that I placed all around you, you have nothing to complain about....

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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I shot an arrow into the air

I shot an arrow into the air
It came down I know not where
Except Europa
Attempt no landing there

JayBezz wrote:

Ground targetted AoEs
As someone who really likes Perception Control I have to say that IF the game has tab targeting I do not want someone to be able to target the area in which I have created a psychic "placate" effect.

That's a powerful effect, making it so that even the most paranoid enemy just forgets about the fight, no matter where he is. But not so powerful that I want you not to have it, even if resistance to taunt/placate/Imma play your character for you is extremely expensive.

Quote:

Thus I want devs to veto ground targeting altogether
Long Live Controllers.

That's an unacceptable break from reality. Make your hax so strong that I can't attack even the ground near you when it's up, fine. Make it so strong that the mere existence of your power causes ballistic weapons to cease ever to have been invented, and it's too much.

Brand X
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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Ground targetted AoEs
As someone who really likes Perception Control I have to say that IF the game has tab targeting I do not want someone to be able to target the area in which I have created a psychic "placate" effect.
Thus I want devs to veto ground targeting altogether
Long Live Controllers.

But Rain of Fire, Shield Charge, Lightning Rod were all popular ground targeted AOEs in CoH. o.O

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
Ground targetted AoEs
As someone who really likes Perception Control I have to say that IF the game has tab targeting I do not want someone to be able to target the area in which I have created a psychic "placate" effect.
Thus I want devs to veto ground targeting altogether
Long Live Controllers.

But Rain of Fire, Shield Charge, Lightning Rod were all popular ground targeted AOEs in CoH. o.O

Not to mention AOE's that ran on the character themselves (Mud pots, Hot Feet for example), that not only did damage, but had a bonus secondary effect as well)

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

JayBezz
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Target the Enemies for AoE

Target the Enemies for AoE Effect (radius around enemy's position), not the ground.

Otherwise powers like confuse (where the enemy targets allies) and placate (where the enemy can't $target you) have no effect in combat as they don't require targeting. The only alternative is to have perception control actually affect the client (something they're doing in Wildstar and I'm looking forward to but does not fit the tab targeting paradigm).

I'm aware that this happened in City of Heroes and it was a design flaw. The same later came to Champions Online and again it was a design flaw. If I spend the energy making myself not targetable by using a power to do so then I should do just that. The issue in the two aforementioned game is that even if the "character" was placated the "Player" was not.

I doubt there's a lot of support behind the "blind the player" model but if players choose this as an alternative I suppose I could be on board.

Pengy wrote:

That's an unacceptable break from reality. Make your hax so strong that I can't attack even the ground near you when it's up, fine. Make it so strong that the mere existence of your power causes ballistic weapons to cease ever to have been invented, and it's too much.

I'm saying:

Option 1) Tab Targeting is all that exists (No ground targeting) and the placate is a binary "targetable/non-targetable" toggle that is placed on a character.. Thus when tab targeting (or mouse click targeting) when you try to target a placated enemy there is no effect.

Option 2) Ground and Tab Targeting exist and the placate effect is NOT a toggle placed on the character anymore but is a Point Blank AoE effect around the caster in which when tab targeting anything (enemies, friends, and objects) the affected area there is no effect.
NOTE: Option two takes much more resources in mobile based combat than Option 1

Option 3) All targeting is twitch targeting (ground based targeting) where your character must aim their attack in 3 dimensional space and only targets in the line of fire (or ground of fire) are affected meaning placates as written into option one and two CAN NOT exist. The alternative effect then being actually blacking out the player's screen for the duration of the effect.

If you are saying you don't want vector based targeting you are essentially saying you don't want ground targeting. The existence of both costs a lot of resources. For this reason I want devs to ONLY use tab targeting.

If you understand and disagree with my argument then we agree to disagree. If anyone does not understand the tenants of my argument I'd be happy to try to re-structure it for better understanding.

Post Script:
As much as I like vector targeting in other games it makes targeting allies extremely difficult for buffer classes. This, when tied to CoH player familiarity is the reason the devs have chosen tab targeting as their model.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

But Rain of Fire, Shield Charge, Lightning Rod were all popular ground targeted AOEs in CoH. o.O

Not to mention AOE's that ran on the character themselves (Mud pots, Hot Feet for example), that not only did damage, but had a bonus secondary effect as well)

1) I have no issue with point blank AoEs. The target=Self model is fine. But it does show the programming problems in option #2 above.

2) Brand X, you play Champions Online.. what I'm talking about is the difference between a power like "orbital cannon" targeting and the "Call up a nightwing to come shoot this ground" power's targeting. When Champions Online was being designed it was tab targeting only. Because their dev, Gentleman Crush, did not understand the basis of this model (he was combat designer for Neverwinter for those who need reference to his other work) he introduced the ground targeting model and completely killed the placate effect in Champions Online Player vs Player

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Ground targetted AoEs
As someone who really likes Perception Control I have to say that IF the game has tab targeting I do not want someone to be able to target the area in which I have created a psychic "placate" effect.
Thus I want devs to veto ground targeting altogether
Long Live Controllers.

Overpowered in the direction of shutting down Recon By Fire completely.

Personally I'd prefer it if use of a Placate simply renders you undetectable, meaning the avatar vanishes until the Placate effect expires. Think of it as being "invisibility" via Debuff of Foe rather than through Buff of Self (or Friend/Ally).

Character A uses Placate on Target Z. If Target Z is a Player, then Character A no longer appears on Target Z's screen.

Thus, Placate "works" as a Perception Debuff ... but use of Placate doesn't in and of itself act as a "force bubble" preventing "grenades" from being thrown/lobbed into a specific area (I'm using quotes in this case to generically describe interacting concepts and functionalities, rather than define specifically named Powers from City of Heroes).


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JayBezz
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Personally I'd prefer it if use of a Placate simply renders you undetectable, meaning the avatar vanishes until the Placate effect expires. Think of it as being "invisibility" via Debuff of Foe rather than through Buff of Self (or Friend/Ally).
Character A uses Placate on Target Z. If Target Z is a Player, then Character A no longer appears on Target Z's screen.
Thus, Placate "works" as a Perception Debuff ... but use of Placate doesn't in and of itself act as a "force bubble" preventing "grenades" from being thrown/lobbed into a specific area (I'm using quotes in this case to generically describe interacting concepts and functionalities, rather than define specifically named Powers from City of Heroes).

I wouldn't mind this but client based placate has many programming issues IIRC from other games. Also my goal is not to be "invisible" as stealth is a different kind of buff. The goal is to be visible and not directly attackable.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

If you understand and disagree with my argument then we agree to disagree. If anyone does not understand the tenants of my argument I'd be happy to try to re-structure it for better understanding.

I don't really understand why you allow point-blank AEs but not grenades.

That aside, I think Placate should work differently than it did in CoH if it's to become more powerful for crowd control.

First option, it could be like Sleep in CoH without the immobilize, or a brittle Phase Shift without the defensive effects. It would render the target unable to activate any offensive powers until someone attacks him, but still able to move or activate defensive toggles.

Second option, it would be a lesser form of Confuse from CoH, granting the caster Friendly Fire protection from the target, but not revoking that protection from the target's allies. Any attempt to attack the caster would be met with "Invalid Target" and new attacks on the caster's area would have an "Unaffected" result.

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Or maybe I do understand, if

Or maybe I do understand, if what you want is not to be unattackable, but to require your opponent to have to close with you in order to attack you indirectly instead of just lobbing fireballs in your path.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I wouldn't mind this but client based placate has many programming issues IIRC from other games. Also my goal is not to be "invisible" as stealth is a different kind of buff. The goal is to be visible and not directly attackable.

Not aiming for snark, but it's entirely possible I'll inadvertently hit that mark on the backswing with this point of clarification.

JayBezz, you aren't asking to JUST be not DIRECTLY attackable thanks to Placate (the legacy performance baseline of expectations) ... you're also asking to not be INDIRECTLY attackable either through means of location targeted AoEs ... meaning that you want Placate to function in a way that essentially amounts to $DEITY Mode against Placated Foes (even if it is a "brittle" state that can expire early). That's overpowered, plain and simple, for a Player ability pretty much no matter how you look at it. You're practically turning Placate into a Phase Power that allows you to attack out of Phase (thereby breaking the Phase) during which you can't be attacked by Placated Foes.

As Pengy points out, you're expected any attacks from a Placated Foe to result in UNAFFECTED! on the Caster of the Placate.


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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Target the Enemies for AoE Effect (radius around enemy's position), not the ground.
Otherwise powers like confuse (where the enemy targets allies) and placate (where the enemy can't $target you) have no effect in combat as they don't require targeting. The only alternative is to have perception control actually affect the client (something they're doing in Wildstar and I'm looking forward to but does not fit the tab targeting paradigm).
I'm aware that this happened in City of Heroes and it was a design flaw. The same later came to Champions Online and again it was a design flaw. If I spend the energy making myself not targetable by using a power to do so then I should do just that. The issue in the two aforementioned game is that even if the "character" was placated the "Player" was not.
I doubt there's a lot of support behind the "blind the player" model but if players choose this as an alternative I suppose I could be on board.
Pengy wrote:
That's an unacceptable break from reality. Make your hax so strong that I can't attack even the ground near you when it's up, fine. Make it so strong that the mere existence of your power causes ballistic weapons to cease ever to have been invented, and it's too much.

I'm saying:
Option 1) Tab Targeting is all that exists (No ground targeting) and the placate is a binary "targetable/non-targetable" toggle that is placed on a character.. Thus when tab targeting (or mouse click targeting) when you try to target a placated enemy there is no effect.
Option 2) Ground and Tab Targeting exist and the placate effect is NOT a toggle placed on the character anymore but is a Point Blank AoE effect around the caster in which when tab targeting anything (enemies, friends, and objects) the affected area there is no effect.
NOTE: Option two takes much more resources in mobile based combat than Option 1
Option 3) All targeting is twitch targeting (ground based targeting) where your character must aim their attack in 3 dimensional space and only targets in the line of fire (or ground of fire) are affected meaning placates as written into option one and two CAN NOT exist. The alternative effect then being actually blacking out the player's screen for the duration of the effect.
If you are saying you don't want vector based targeting you are essentially saying you don't want ground targeting. The existence of both costs a lot of resources. For this reason I want devs to ONLY use tab targeting.
If you understand and disagree with my argument then we agree to disagree. If anyone does not understand the tenants of my argument I'd be happy to try to re-structure it for better understanding.
Post Script:
As much as I like vector targeting in other games it makes targeting allies extremely difficult for buffer classes. This, when tied to CoH player familiarity is the reason the devs have chosen tab targeting as their model.

Now I have to just disagree. There's a difference between making the enemy blind to you, and being made invincible to AOE. They're basically shooting blind with an AOE attack. They don't see you, that doesn't mean they can't get lucky.

In CO, do the same thing with Stealth users...I release the PBAOE I have. Can't see/target them, so I start shooting randomly.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Now I have to just disagree. There's a difference between making the enemy blind to you, and being made invincible to AOE. They're basically shooting blind with an AOE attack. They don't see you, that doesn't mean they can't get lucky.
In CO, do the same thing with Stealth users...I release the PBAOE I have. Can't see/target them, so I start shooting randomly.

I do not see where we are disagreeing. If you're placating an enemy who hits an AoE where you would be hit, you should be hit. They simply should not be able to TARGET you to cast that power. They can target the person right next to you. They can target themselves and use a PBAoE. They can even target a destructible object (if the placate effect isn't a PBAoE effect) next to you.

But the entire purpose of the placate is that they cannot TARGET you. I say nothing about not being able to hit you. That is a misunderstanding. Being able to TARGET the ground under you is the exact same as being able to target you directly and for that reason I do not want being able to target the ground for attacks. If you do want ground targeting it is in and of itself a vector based targeting system (which many people call "Twitch").

I am NOT talking about stealth. I am talking about placate. They are two different mechanics. Stealth = Not perceivable (invisible). Placate = Visible but not target-able.

Pengy wrote:

Second option, it would be a lesser form of Confuse from CoH, granting the caster Friendly Fire protection from the target, but not revoking that protection from the target's allies. Any attempt to attack the caster would be met with "Invalid Target" and new attacks on the caster's area would have an "Unaffected" result.

Placate IS a lesser form of confuse as it's defined. They are both targeting modifiers. Placate modifies the casters targeting so that they cannot be targeted by an enemy. Confuse goes further to modify the targeting so that enemies target their allies as well. Some games allow confused targets to "Hit all targets", some games the confuses targets can only hit their allies, and in some games confused targets hit themselves (most everyone hated this one because it basically made attacking while confused unbearable).

The targeting modification is much LIKE but separate from perception control (blinding the enemy with Light powers, Blizzard, Dust Storms etc). Stealth is a buff which is in the same wheel house as perception control but is a buff NOT a debuff.

Redlynne wrote:

As Pengy points out, you're expected any attacks from a Placated Foe to result in UNAFFECTED! on the Caster of the Placate.

Better nomenclature will aid in the understanding of what we're talking about. Again.. if there's a Chain power, an AoE, et cetera.. they still would HURT a placated enemy. Sorry if this was misunderstood. I re-read what I wrote. I don't see how people are making that distinction from what I've written.

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So, not only can we not see

So, not only can we not see/target you, but we can't see/target near you, and in fact we can't target the ground at all? Sounds like an 'I Win Button'.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

So, not only can we not see/target you, but we can't see/target near you, and in fact we can't target the ground at all? Sounds like an 'I Win Button'.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Where are you getting this from? Surely not from what I've written.

For clarification. Yes you can see a placating enemy. No you directly target a placated enemy (when tabbing the tab skips the enemy. When clicked the placating enemy will not target). You CAN target other ATTACKABLE objects near a placated enemy for AoE. You CAN NOT target the map where the placated enemy is standing/flying as there is not ground/map targeting.

IF there is vector based targeting (directional and map based targeting) the placate effect would need to be changed drastically to accommodate the vector based targeting. My first thought is to make the placate effect a PBAoE where all destructibles inside the PBAoE effect cannot be directly targeted. But this solution has its own problems because of the way Target=Self works (For healing yourself). Having NOTHING to do with PBAoE Damage which usually requires NO target.

I do try to be transparent and actual in my words but something seems to be lost in translation.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Fireheart wrote:
So, not only can we not see/target you, but we can't see/target near you, and in fact we can't target the ground at all? Sounds like an 'I Win Button'.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Where are you getting this from? Surely not from what I've written.

JayBezz wrote:

Ground targetted AoEs
As someone who really likes Perception Control I have to say that IF the game has tab targeting I do not want someone to be able to target the area in which I have created a psychic "placate" effect.
Thus I want devs to veto ground targeting altogether
Long Live Controllers.

Seems pretty clear to me that Fireheart is right on the money with the analysis of what you explicitly said. In this case the Search Fu difficulty isn't all that hard.


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Disclaimer: I'm a 100% PvE

Disclaimer: I'm a 100% PvE player, so take this all with a gain of salt (or a whole shaker of salt).

Looking at this from a game logic perspective, placate should essentially be temporary immunity to a player's attacks. For example, say your superhero buddies are in the thick of hand-to-hand combat with some thugs, and you throw down a fire patch (or a grenade). The enemies get hurt, but your friends don't. The "logic" behind that is that no matter your powers, you have control of them and who they affect. So logically, if your character is affected by something that makes them think that this other character is friendly, your character will make sure that their attacks won't affect the placator.

However, that's more than a little broken in a PvP setting, perhaps excepting a completely tiny duration, plentiful mitigation methods, or acting as a kind of inverse phase (placate would only last until the placator does something negative to the placated target). Perhaps a better idea for PvP placate would follow this logic: A villain sneaks up on you and blows magic placate dust in your face. You're a strong willed and smart hero, you realize the deception that is going on, however you're still under the effects of this power. You can still attack them, but your heart isn't in it. Right when you are about to strike, they seem to take the form of a loved one or an ally, and while you still follow through you can not bring yourself to hit with full force. Maybe it's so painful an image that you cause some of your attacks to miss. It essentially becomes a damage and/or accuracy debuff of some indeterminate magnitude.

Making placate a debuff of that sort in PvP sidesteps a lot of these issues while still making placate useful.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Seems pretty clear to me that Fireheart is right on the money with the analysis of what you explicitly said. In this case the Search Fu difficulty isn't all that hard.

I disagree and also do not welcome the tone of the reply.

I will simply say read the words for their denotation and ignore the connotation that you may imply. I am simply making the argument that ground based targeting is vector based targeting. Vector based targeting (shooting in a direction based on map/direction you're facing) is twitch targeting.

As an advocate of crowd control (Movement Debuffs, Attack Speed Debuffs, Targeting Debuffs, etc) one of the FIRST casualties of vector based targeting is the placate effect. Placate described as a cast that leaves you VISIBLE to the enemy and yet not directly targetable. This happens because while the "character" of another player can not target you the player's mechanics are still allowed to attack you directly.. the entire purpose is to force the player to find a way to attack you IN-Directly.

If for some reason this is not being understood I am glad to try to re-state my posistion. I do not appreciate the tone of the responses that disagree. If you simply don't agree with the my assertions then we simply will aggree to disagree. No attitude needed.

Kill-Term wrote:

Disclaimer: I'm a 100% PvE player, so take this all with a gain of salt (or a whole shaker of salt).
Looking at this from a game logic perspective, placate should essentially be temporary immunity to a player's attacks.

In strict PvE terms a placate (also a confuse) is Threat immunity. Not attack immunity. And just because you're immune to threat does not mean enemies will not use AoE attacks in your direction. However if a NPC placates a player, the player will not be able to directly attack the NPC enemy.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I disagree and also do not welcome the tone of the reply.

Quote:

There's an old legal aphorism that goes, "If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table."


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*starts re-reading*

*starts re-reading*

Right, lets look at this as a *purely* PvE point of view, with you being a player (and not an enemy mob doing the placate effect). Unless there is friendly fire involved, it wont make a blind bit of difference, from another player using a ground targeted AOE near you.

There is the case that for a *mob* with ground targeted AOE's not being able to use a power so that *part* of its AOE wouldn't be able to intersect with your "placate" field. Fair enough, I can see that. Small bit of extra checking on the server to see if an ability can be used near you, but should be a minimal increase (this is because it cannot check just after the AOE is used to see if it can be placed there, but it has to be checked *everytime* it moves its targetting. And to be fair, for ground targetted AOE's I believe that CoX cheated and just used the *player* as the targetting area, and not the "ground" beneath the player.

Now, if the *mobs* had an effect like this, you will have a lot of serverside/clientside checking to make sure that you are able to use the ability there. Would it be powerful? Hell yes, I *personally* wouldn't allow something like this to be a mid level ability (player side), because it wipes out the ability for the targetted mob(s) to be able to attack you.

It is almost at the level of a *total* reset switch. If it only affected one or two mobs, it would be better overall, but I would definitely have an upper limit as to how many mobs it would prevent from attacking you (or near you, or other players inside the AOE effect).

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
I disagree and also do not welcome the tone of the reply.
Quote:
There's an old legal aphorism that goes, "If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table."

You are compounding the issue of attitude. After the portion you quote I go on to fully restate my point as to why vector targeting is consistent with twitch targeting and not tab targeting.

The saying nor the link do anything to address ground targeting, nor the mechanics of placate. This introduction of new-nonrelated evidence only serves as a distraction from the topic.

- -

@Gangrel - you are working under the assumption that ground targeting is an option. This is the premise against which I'm arguing. If ground targeting exists the placating the player does not work. The placate then needs to effect an area of the map instead of the character. The AoE Placate causes more problems than it solves (specifically /Target$Self for buffs/shields/heals). While it is ONE solution, the problem is only existent if players can target the ground. Therefore I am advocating that players only be able to target characters and destructible objects ipso facto players cannot target the ground/map/vectors for powers.

I think there are other solutions to how placate could work. But this is a case of me simply selecting the simplest solution. If others have ideas of how placate could work I welcome hearing them.

- -

Outside of placates I still contest that map targeting IS vector targeting. And if the devs want to use vector based targeting they should go full out and let players shoot powers in 3 dimensional space (something not easy in a game that uses the Z axis). And if vector targeting exists then dodge WILL exist because players will stay out of the targeted area to avoid casts.

The crux of my argument is that if you allow vector based targeting in one area it brings up all of the problems of "twitch" mechanics. The OP listed many things as "not twitch" and I'm simply saying that map targeting IS twitch. I am citing Placate as ONE example (the example that would most effect crowd controllers)

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Right, but even something

Right, but even something that *doesn't* involve ground targetting would still be affected.

Caltrops for example... they didn't involve a "ground target", they just so happen to *affect* an area of ground in front of you. Cone attacks (attack a group of mobs in front of you), didn't always need a *target* for them to work.

So what you are doing is *removing* all of those options.

*edit* To clarify, For Caltrops, you just had to press a button, and they were thrown across an area of ground infront of you. They *didnt* require you to click the ground.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

In strict PvE terms a placate (also a confuse) is Threat immunity. Not attack immunity. And just because you're immune to threat does not mean enemies will not use AoE attacks in your direction. However if a NPC placates a player, the player will not be able to directly attack the NPC enemy.

Ah, I was thinking about this incorrectly. I was thinking of placate (in terms of in-game logic) like "Oh, this guy is actually my friend", but instead it seems more like "Hey, that's not an enemy, that's just a office chair". Nobody would particularly care if an office chair gets blown up in an attack on an enemy, but they won't go out of their way to specifically blow up that office chair either.

Well, this certainly is a very delicate balance issue. Too far one way, and PvP revolves around it (it could even turn into a twitchy battle of who gets their placate effect off first), and too far the other way makes it essentially useless in PvP. Personally, I think it's better to err towards making things underpowered than overpowered. Better to have a skill/effect that no one uses than one that everyone uses.

Regardless, I'm in over my head, so I'll see myself out.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Right, but even something that *doesn't* involve ground targetting would still be affected.
Caltrops for example... they didn't involve a "ground target", they just so happen to *affect* an area of ground in front of you. Cone attacks (attack a group of mobs in front of you), didn't always need a *target* for them to work.
So what you are doing is *removing* all of those options.

Yes.

If you want to use a cone attack there must be a target toggled. The direction of a cast would be dictated by the vector to the TARGET not dictated by the vector on the MAP/GROUND

If you are arguing that you WANT vector based targeting (shooting powers that aren't Point Blank AoE without a target) then I simply will agree to disagree.

- -

But outside of that disagreement, what role does a placate work in your hypothesized targeting system? Are they then erased or useless in PvP. Both of these options I take issue with

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Well, the reason why I

Well, the reason why I brought up the caltrops, is because a lot of the time, when I saw them being used, it was *around* a corner so that you didn't have a target available to "throw them".

I guess this does cut down on the "setting traps" for mobs. Also *strictly* speaking, it would also prevent "buff totems" from being created in the game (ie a *static* area that you could set up for a buff/debuff to take effect)

That form of gameplay would be wiped out.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Well, the reason why I brought up the caltrops, is because a lot of the time, when I saw them being used, it was *around* a corner so that you didn't have a target available to "throw them".
I guess this does cut down on the "setting traps" for mobs. Also *strictly* speaking, it would also prevent "buff totems" from being created in the game (ie a *static* area that you could set up for a buff/debuff to take effect)
That form of gameplay would be wiped out.

I do encourage mobile gameplay. Not only do I think this is good for action comic books (I hate reading Bendis where the characters just talk for issues on end) but also because I am a gamer first and role-player second. I think mobile combat is just more fun. And finally, what good is movement control (snares, roots) in a game with static combat. Not to mention people who enjoy swooping down in flight to hit enemies or being a super speeder who can hit and run.

This does not mean that setting traps would go away. They simply would not be set from range. For instance you can set a bomb. You simply would not be able to throw it at the ground where there was no target. The same would go for "buff totems", players could still set a buff spot on the map.. it would just require those persons being IN the space they want to buff when setting them (Much like Champions Online's circles and sigils in the sorcery tree that entire set encouraged static gameplay but the player was rewarded for it)

I do not mean to dismiss the play style in which you are speaking. And do not doubt that many people would miss it but I do feel that many of the actual mechanics people of City of Heroes liked would still exist but in a different form.

- -

If you introduce vector targeting to a tab targeting system, a lot of adverse effects happen. Not just Placate. I know because I witnessed it in Champions Online. When they introduced it I could not use the vector based powers with my X-Box Controller and could ONLY use them with a mouse. Also when they introduced vector targeting players who have quick hand eye coordination and the ability to move the mouse quickly to their desired target are more productive. While this could be considered a "skill" it greatly hurts the differently abled.

There are a lot more effects than placate. But you can depend on me to bring up Crowd Control's perspective first.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Now I have to just disagree. There's a difference between making the enemy blind to you, and being made invincible to AOE. They're basically shooting blind with an AOE attack. They don't see you, that doesn't mean they can't get lucky.
In CO, do the same thing with Stealth users...I release the PBAOE I have. Can't see/target them, so I start shooting randomly.

I do not see where we are disagreeing. If you're placating an enemy who hits an AoE where you would be hit, you should be hit. They simply should not be able to TARGET you to cast that power. They can target the person right next to you. They can target themselves and use a PBAoE. They can even target a destructible object (if the placate effect isn't a PBAoE effect) next to you.
But the entire purpose of the placate is that they cannot TARGET you. I say nothing about not being able to hit you. That is a misunderstanding. Being able to TARGET the ground under you is the exact same as being able to target you directly and for that reason I do not want being able to target the ground for attacks. If you do want ground targeting it is in and of itself a vector based targeting system (which many people call "Twitch").
I am NOT talking about stealth. I am talking about placate. They are two different mechanics. Stealth = Not perceivable (invisible). Placate = Visible but not target-able.
Pengy wrote:
Second option, it would be a lesser form of Confuse from CoH, granting the caster Friendly Fire protection from the target, but not revoking that protection from the target's allies. Any attempt to attack the caster would be met with "Invalid Target" and new attacks on the caster's area would have an "Unaffected" result.

Placate IS a lesser form of confuse as it's defined. They are both targeting modifiers. Placate modifies the casters targeting so that they cannot be targeted by an enemy. Confuse goes further to modify the targeting so that enemies target their allies as well. Some games allow confused targets to "Hit all targets", some games the confuses targets can only hit their allies, and in some games confused targets hit themselves (most everyone hated this one because it basically made attacking while confused unbearable).
The targeting modification is much LIKE but separate from perception control (blinding the enemy with Light powers, Blizzard, Dust Storms etc). Stealth is a buff which is in the same wheel house as perception control but is a buff NOT a debuff.
Redlynne wrote:
As Pengy points out, you're expected any attacks from a Placated Foe to result in UNAFFECTED! on the Caster of the Placate.

Better nomenclature will aid in the understanding of what we're talking about. Again.. if there's a Chain power, an AoE, et cetera.. they still would HURT a placated enemy. Sorry if this was misunderstood. I re-read what I wrote. I don't see how people are making that distinction from what I've written.

Targetting the ground underneath you is not the same thing. It's throwing an AOE attack at the last known place you where.

You placate an enemy and are afraid of them hitting you with a ground target AOE (like a grenade), then move out of the way.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Right, but even something that *doesn't* involve ground targetting would still be affected.
Caltrops for example... they didn't involve a "ground target", they just so happen to *affect* an area of ground in front of you. Cone attacks (attack a group of mobs in front of you), didn't always need a *target* for them to work.
So what you are doing is *removing* all of those options.
*edit* To clarify, For Caltrops, you just had to press a button, and they were thrown across an area of ground infront of you. They *didnt* require you to click the ground.

Yes they did. You clicked caltrops, a circle would lay along the ground and you would throw them where ever you clicked that circle at.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

You placate an enemy and are afraid of them hitting you with a ground target AOE (like a grenade), then move out of the way.

Are you working under the assumption that placating characters are invisible? or stealthed?

I am not working from this premise. Stealth and Placate are two distinctly different mechanics. One effects targeting. The other effects perception.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Brand X wrote:
You placate an enemy and are afraid of them hitting you with a ground target AOE (like a grenade), then move out of the way.

Are you working under the assumption that placating characters are invisible? or stealthed?
I am not working from this premise. Stealth and Placate are two distinctly different mechanics. One effects targeting. The other effects perception.

I'm working on the idea if you just placated someone, what doesn't matter is where I throw my grenade, caltrops, lay down an ice patch, release a fiery rain or an icey storm, or just charge in with my shield blinding swinging at nothing but air in a hope to connect with something/one.

By the sounds of it, you want all AOE to need a target that way you can hit placate and then not have to worry about some player using an AOE that can hit you instead of an attack they can't use on you because they can't target you.

Nothing wrong with ground targeted AOEs.

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I will not take that

I will not take that personally

I do not understand your position. And even more-so I think you misunderstand my position. Without attacking your position I will simply ask you to elaborate.

When you say "Nothing wrong with ground targets AoEs" are you specifically saying that the multiple concerns I've posted above are flatly invalid? And If so, why/how/in what way?

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I will not take that personally
I do not understand your position. And even more-so I think you misunderstand my position. Without attacking your position I will simply ask you to elaborate.
When you say "Nothing wrong with ground targets AoEs are you specifically saying that the multiple concerns I've posted above are flatly invalid? And If so, why/how/in what way?

Okay, let me ask...why would I need to target someone when throwing a grenade?

Why would I need an enemy to target to lay down a patch of fiery rain? If my character is charging forward and fling the shield about, why would I need a target?

Why would I need a target to drop to the ground and do a spinning kick as if to trip someone? Not all attacks should need a target.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Okay, let me ask...why would I need to target someone when throwing a grenade?
Why would I need an enemy to target to lay down a patch of fiery rain? If my character is charging forward and fling the shield about, why would I need a target?
Why would I need a target to drop to the ground and do a spinning kick as if to trip someone? Not all attacks should need a target.

Do i understand your position to be in favor of vector based targeting altogether? I can shoot a fireball in direction XYZ and if players are in said vector they are hit (a la Wildstar or Everquest Next?)

I am not opposed to a game of completely vector based targeting (it does as i stated above have many more problems in any game where the z axis is involved vis a vis games where you can fly as high as you want and/or dig underground.) But the argument is hard to make that vector based targeting is not twitch based as in order to dodge the area of effect I need to move my virtual avatar out of the line of fire.

Regardless of the assertion about your desire for vector based targeting, do you not see how it renders a targeting debuff moot? Placate (as defined previously as NOT stealth) is a game mechanic that can exist in tab targeting and it cannot exist in vector targeting.

This is ONE of the multiple reasons i've cited for why vector targeting is a problem. But even if you desire vector targeting I do not understand your position that placate can exist and have the same intrinsic value in a vector based targeting system.

EDIT:
As an additional personal question. Did you play the game Champions Online before the introduction of Strafing Run? There were still ranged AoE powers (Force Cascade, Fireball, Orbital Cannon, Flashfire to name a few) that all worked and required an enemy (or destructible object) be targeted. When players were placated (again NOT stealth) they were not able to be targeted and those particular powers required you create a vector NEAR the target by targeting something else. When the game introduced vector targeting (Strafing Run being the first) the entire placate effect was useless. (On top of the other previously stated adverse effects)

I ask not as a personal attack but as an inquiry to better understand each other.
- -

To restate my thesis:

Quote:

For me following elements are *not* twitch combat:

...
Ground targetted AoEs

I am making the assertion that vector based targeting (Including but not limited to targeting the map) IS in fact twitch combat. And it specifically causes problems with the tab targeting model of combat.

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Yes.

Yes.

And for anyone who played CoH, they know there were ST and AOE attacks that required a target, AOEs that required no target (usually PBAOEs) and AOEs that you clicked, it put up a circle you put upon the landscape and then clicked to place the AOE.

I wouldn't call that last one twitch.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

]
And for anyone who played CoH, they know there were ST and AOE attacks that required a target, AOEs that required no target (usually PBAOEs) and AOEs that you clicked, it put up a circle you put upon the landscape and then clicked to place the AOE.
I wouldn't call that last one twitch.

Very well, I can agree to disagree.

Yes I know that City of of Heroes had these abilities. And have attempted to explain my position as to why a change is needed. I am glad that we appear to agree that tab targeting should be the primary targeting mechanism and that PBAoE effect powers do not require a target.

I celebrate our common ground.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

and AOEs that you clicked, it put up a circle you put upon the landscape and then clicked to place the AOE.

Examples:

Caltrops ... Target: Location
Rain of Arrows ... Target: Location
Disruption Arrow ... Target: Location
Oil Slick Arrow ... Target: Location
Ignite ... Target: Location
Sleet ... Target: Location
Lifegiving Spores ... Target: Location
Liquefy ... Target: Location
Freezing Rain ... Target: Location
Tornado ... Target: Location
Distortion Field ... Target: Location
Rain of Fire ... Target: Location
Ice Storm ... Target: Location
Blizzard ... Target: Location
Whirlpool ... Target: Location

Should I keep going or is that enough evidence? I only ask because there's plenty more where that came from.


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I don't think anyone was

I don't think anyone was disputing the existence of the powers you're quoting.

Once again Redlynne, I am however disputing the reasoning for the existence of vector based targeting in a tab targeting game. I don't quite understand what the content of your post does to address that.

Introducing non-disputed facts to the debate acts more as a derailment of the fulcrum of discussion.

- -

I will restate three other arguments to my case:

1) Vector targeting is something that works only reasonably well in 3 dimensional space as you cannot target the air and only the ground.

2) Vector targeting, while somewhat acceptable in static gameplay loses a lot of its appeal when introduced into mobile combat. If a target is running and I have to track them with a mouse pointing in the vector (or WORSE on the SPOT) that the enemy is occupying then it is very unfriendly to handicapped players who have difficulty reacting to fast moving targets (especially if the target is a human player who can change their position on a whim). City of Heroes was very static combat and I hope to City of Titans is much more mobile (Crowd Control is much more valuable in mobile combat, obviously)

3) Controllers have issues casting "mouse targeted" powers and any controller support (whether dev created or player generated) is greatly reduced for any vector based powers used in a vector targeting model.

oh and for good cause theres 4) PLACATES (and other targeting based debuffs including Threat forcing aggro) are USELESS in vector based combat. If a tank uses a taunt and forces you to target them.. what difference does it make if you can still click wherever you want to cast your attack?

- -

I have structured the tenants of my argument and welcome the debate and dispute of the assertions I've presented. I even welcome alternative counter arguments. But if the argument for having vector targeting is "City of Heroes" had it.. that argument is not compelling enough to kill off the tab targeting gameplay mechanics that it would kill off.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I don't think anyone was disputing the existence of the powers you're quoting.
Once again Redlynne, I am however disputing the reasoning for the existence of vector based targeting in a tab targeting game. I don't quite understand what the content of your post does to address that.
Introducing non-disputed facts to the debate acts more as a derailment of the fulcrum of discussion.
- -
I will restate three other arguments to my case:
1) Vector targeting is something that works only reasonably well in 3 dimensional space as you cannot target the air and only the ground.
2) Vector targeting, while somewhat acceptable in static gameplay loses a lot of its appeal when introduced into mobile combat. If a target is running and I have to track them with a mouse pointing in the vector (or WORSE on the SPOT) that the enemy is occupying then it is very unfriendly to handicapped players who have difficulty reacting to fast moving targets (especially if the target is a human player who can change their position on a whim). City of Heroes was very static combat and I hope to City of Titans is much more mobile (Crowd Control is much more valuable in mobile combat, obviously)
3) Controllers have issues casting "mouse targeted" powers and any controller support (whether dev created or player generated) is greatly reduced for any vector based powers used in a vector targeting model.
oh and for good cause theres 4) PLACATES (and other targeting based debuffs including Threat forcing aggro) are USELESS in vector based combat. If a tank uses a taunt and forces you to target them.. what difference does it make if you can still click wherever you want to cast your attack?
- -
I have structured the tenants of my argument and welcome the debate and dispute of the assertions I've presented. I even welcome alternative counter arguments. But if the argument for having vector targeting is "City of Heroes" had it.. that argument is not compelling enough to kill off the tab targeting gameplay mechanics that it would kill off.

Ummm..in all my time in CoH, I never saw anyone actually say they were hard to use. In fact, they were quite popular in at least PvE. Don't recall them being all that popular in PvP, but then they were static AOEs people could usually just move out of easily.

As for your placate becomes useless and taunts becomes useless, I can use a PBAOE or target something else and use target based AOE.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Ummm..in all my time in CoH, I never saw anyone actually say they were hard to use. In fact, they were quite popular in at least PvE. Don't recall them being all that popular in PvP, but then they were static AOEs people could usually just move out of easily.

City of Heroes was very much based on the stand and cast model with clicks and no blast or maintains. while players did use movement for line of sight and distance breaks. The enemies clustered themselves and did not move. With the introduction of any kind of mobile combat (for PvE AND PvP) trying to target with a mouse, especially for those who are disabled, is difficult and I did hear as such as players would tell me they done use power XYZ because it's too hard to use both the cast buttons and mouse. Your assertion that you did not notice them is noted but does not negate the argument that:

JayBezz wrote:

Vector targeting, while somewhat acceptable in static gameplay loses a lot of its appeal when introduced into mobile combat.

- -

Brand X wrote:

As for your placate becomes useless and taunts becomes useless, I can use a PBAOE or target something else and use target based AOE.

Yes. vector less targeting (aka PBAoE) would still exist. So if I were to placate an enemy with PBAoE attacks I would likely keep my distance. But no matter what action I take.. if the "placate" debuff (a targeting debuff) does not debuff the opponents targeting then the entire purpose of the mechanic is negated.

Please also note that placate is only ONE kind of targeting debuff. But they are ALL made moot by vector targeting. I am not willing to lose all of the tab targeting debuffs because another player (who apparently has no problem clicking on my location) cannot click an destructible or enemy in my vicinity (or line of sight depending on the cast) to hit me.

COUNTER argument:
Your argument to keep ground targeting comes down to "Yes I'll still click in the direction of who I want to target.. but if they're not targetable I'll have to target the thing RIGHT NEXT TO what i'm clicking" and for some reason your conclusion is "No, that's too much".

*Player A* But that's an imposition and forces me to act differently
*Player B* That is how a debuff attack is designed to work.. to impose on your gameplay
*Player A* But I don't like having to target an enemy
*Player B* Then get some debuff attack resistance so the power does not effect you.

Pause 1
Pause 2
Pause 3
Pause 4
Pause 5

If your initial reaction to the above "Player B" responses feels like something you disagree with go try it again and replace the word "debuff" with the word "damage" and ask yourself if it s the logic of the argument that is unsound or the convictions of your adamance that is unsound.

- -

If you do not like targeting debuffs altogether I can understand your position of opinion. But that position, no matter how valid, does not escape the supposition of the fact that vector based targeting kills off targeting debuffs.

If you want to argue that targeting debuffs should not exist then that is outside of the paradigm of the current case under argument.

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the placate still distrubts

the placate still distrubts your targeting. Vector targeting isn't targeting you. It's targeting the ground at some point, that may or may not have you standing in the middle.

As for the "not useable by certain disabilities" then, couldn't they just not use them again? CoH was already stated by many with some sort of disability that it was easy to play for them.

Should we make the game completely back and white so the color blind aren't missing out on anything? Not mistaking the red fire attack for a green radiation attack?

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

the placate still distrubts your targeting. Vector targeting isn't targeting you. It's targeting the ground at some point, that may or may not have you standing in the middle.
As for the "not useable by certain disabilities" then, couldn't they just not use them again? CoH was already stated by many with some sort of disability that it was easy to play for them.
Should we make the game completely back and white so the color blind aren't missing out on anything? Not mistaking the red fire attack for a green radiation attack?

Go even further back and make it for those who have limited reflexes that the *minimum* recharge for any ability is 5 seconds (if not longer). This is to make it suitable for those who might not have the reaction times to play the "faster" combat games.

Ironically, when CoX was released, its combat was viewed as *fast* (and yes, even in comparison with WoW it was fast). Strangely enough, WoW feels faster now than what it was previously, and yet... they haven't actually done anything which makes you hit the abilities faster...

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I don't think anyone was disputing the existence of the powers you're quoting.
Once again Redlynne, I am however disputing the reasoning for the existence of vector based targeting in a tab targeting game. I don't quite understand what the content of your post does to address that.
Introducing non-disputed facts to the debate acts more as a derailment of the fulcrum of discussion.

I was simply pointing out that if you get your way, quite a LOT of Powers (as opposed to just a scant handful) wouldn't be allowed to work the way they had. You're essentially BREAKING a Known Working System in order to grant "supremacy" to a single specialized Mez mechanic ... Placate.

Usually game balance is achieve through a competition of Measure versus Countermeasure. You are flat out advocating for the removal of a Countermeasure (Target: Location) so that a Measure (Placate) cannot be countered AT ALL. This is fundamental drive behind your effort and is the underlying reason why you are receiving so much pushback on your viewpoints and assertions.


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For one thing, we need to

For one thing, we need to consider what Placate is. Placate is an effect cast on a target to make them not want to attack the caster.

Ex: Guy with rifle comes around the corner, sees Mrs Mental and gets placated. He will NOT attack her until it wears off or she breaks it by attacking him. Under this circumstance it doesn't matter WHAT weapon the guy is using...he simply won't want to use ANY weapon on her...period. The guard standing NEXT to him can still see her and (assuming the Placate wasn't an AoE) and attack her. The weapons HE uses is also irrelevant.

I think Jay is worried more about PvP than PvE because the situation I just described in PvE would result in exactly what I said, the placated guard doesn't shoot but the unplacated guy next to him does.

Now let's look at a PvP situation. I'm stalking through the warehouse looking for you. If you placate me then I can't attack you but I CAN target stuff next to you or whatever. This makes NO sense whatsoever. Placate, by definition, means that the target(s) don't want to attack the caster. I KNOW my grenade will hurt you if it lands next to you and unless that crate behind you pissed me off in some way why would I attack it? Used in this manner Placate becomes exactly the 'I Win' button others have mentioned before.

To me a lot of it depends on how you're defining Placate. A mental power telling me not to attack means I don't attack...anything. A mental command telling me not to attack YOU means I smirk and 'attack' the wall right behind you because you gave me an extremely narrow command and I figured out a way out of it.

Master: Genie, make those men not want to attack me!
Genie: As you wish Master!

Grenade rolls to your feet...boom.

Master: Genie...why did they attack me?
Genie: I never told them not to attack the floor...

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

Master: Genie, make those men not want to attack me!

So long as Placate is not defined as ...

Master: Genie, make those men not want to attack me at all!

... then we don't have a problem. The thing is, Recon By Fire is a legitimate and viable tactic and should not be prohibited just because it's "mean" to Placate.

If you're worried about the PvP situation, the solution is relatively obvious ... Placate removes both the ability to Target AND Detect the Caster of the Placate from the affected Target(s). This means that if an enemy Placates YOU, they disappear from YOUR screen specifically (while everyone not affected by the Placate can still see and attack them just fine). Implementing Placate in this fashion means that the obvious choice when using Placate is to Shoot And Scoot so as to not be as vulnerable to retaliatory Recon By Fire which cannot target you directly, but rather only indirectly via untargeted AoEs.

Measure ... Countermeasure ... with the "IWIN!" button conspicuously absent.


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Your willingness to mix
Redlynne wrote:

This means that if an enemy Placates YOU, they disappear from YOUR screen specifically (while everyone not affected by the Placate can still see and attack them just fine).

Your willingness to mix placate with stealth is noted. But stealth and targeting debuffs are not the same thing.

- -

Comicsluvr wrote:

Placate, by definition, means that the target(s) don't want to attack the caster. I KNOW my grenade will hurt you if it lands next to you and unless that crate behind you pissed me off in some way why would I attack it? Used in this manner Placate becomes exactly the 'I Win' button others have mentioned before.

1) Placate .. i've spoken on the topic extensively

2) Taunt (when defined as forcing an enemy player to target the caster) Threat management is a common mechanic in tanks. What good is threat management if targeting is not dependent of threat. Players will continue to target the ground wherever they want. Are you going to state that all other players that aren't taunting should become invisible?

3) Confuse (when defined as allowing/forcing an enemy to target their allies and add friendly fire damage). Confuse is the highest form of targeting debuff. But players won't target their friends.. they will simply target the ground where their enemies are.

- -

Redlynne wrote:

You are flat out advocating for the removal of a Countermeasure (Target: Location)

Saying that the powers in Post 42 will cease to exist is a misnomer. They can exist, but the targeting on the power requires a target be selected.

EDIT: (After re-reading your post I understand now that you are saying the MECHANIC would be gone and not the powers. Yes that is an accurate description of my position. For this assertion I respond thusly) I contest your assertion that using Target:Location is a countermeasure. It is an original measure and there is no alternative use for target=location but to target areas of effect with disregard to tab targeting. Target:Ground is not a reactionary measure. It is an original measure, and it's a measure that diminishes the effectiveness of another. Powers with Target=Location would not work any differently in your model as a reaction to a stimulus.

Redlynne wrote:

You're essentially BREAKING a Known Working System...

To your assertion that the system is not broken, I say the mechanic is broken if it does not work as it was intended. And outside of stealthing the placating enemy (even just on the client), I haven't seen a solution. And while I understand your desire to be invisible, I do not share it as it is not in my characters mechanics. If she was an invisibility user she would turn invisible. The existence of vector targeting doesn't just diminish the usefulness of a placate mechanic, it eliminates the usefulness of the placate mechanic.

Redlynne wrote:

in order to grant "supremacy" to a single specialized Mez mechanic ... Placate.

How do you get "supremacy" from the inability to target an enemy for attacks. There are still plenty of AoE powers, and PBAoE powers that are usable. And because you can SEE the enemy all you need to is get close enough to cast one of those powers in an area that the enemy is in. And as with all mez mechanics they should be able to be resisted by mez resistance.

Your willingness to sacrifice PvP threat mechanics deeply worries me.

Becoming invisible should surely be an option, but it is not what a solution to PvP threat mechanics being eradicated.

- -

I also still standby the second half of my argument that ALL vector based targeting is harder for people with poorer hand-eye coordination. And while some may call this "skill", I do not. Losing just because the enemy can run faster than I can move my mouse is lame.

- -

Redlynne wrote:

The thing is, Recon By Fire is a legitimate and viable tactic and should not be prohibited just because it's "mean" to Placate.

I want to specifically respond to "Recon by fire". The perception of an enemy is not gone. Players who are stealthed should have counters to them (Specifically PBAoE attacks and requiring any damage bonus from stealth to require melee/close range). Shooting AoE at targeted stealthed enemies is ONE defense. There could also be some buffs that allow you to see stealthed enemies for a period of time.. Enhanced Sences, Telepathic Search, Magic location, etc)

Your desire to build a countermeasure to stealth is noted. But a placate, as i've repeated, is not a stealth mechanic. You (the player) will still be able to see your enemy. There is no "recon" needed.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Are you going to state that all other players that aren't taunting should become invisible?

I haven't said that.
I'm not going to say that.
Straw man ... HAVE AT THEE!!

JayBezz wrote:

Saying that the powers in Post 42 will cease to exist is a misnomer.

True ... except that's explicitly not what I said. I did not say that the Powers I listed in Post 42 would cease to exist.

What I *did* say about them in Post 48 was ...

Redlynne wrote:

I was simply pointing out that if you get your way, quite a LOT of Powers (as opposed to just a scant handful) wouldn't be allowed to work the way they had. You're essentially BREAKING a Known Working System in order to grant "supremacy" to a single specialized Mez mechanic ... Placate.

... and I stand by that analysis. If you get your way, JayBezz, a lot of Powers that worked using Target: Location wouldn't be allowed to work the way that they had.

Where I come from, changing how something works is neither equal to nor equivalent to making it cease to exist.

I would appreciate it if you stopped making stuff up and attributing it to me. The quote feature works just fine. Feel free to make use of it.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
Are you going to state that all other players that aren't taunting should become invisible?
I haven't said that.
I'm not going to say that.
Straw man ... HAVE AT THEE!!

I am saying that Threat is a targeting debuff. When affecting enemy targeting the entire system is incosistent with vector targeting. Tab Targeting lets the direction of your targeted object determine the vector. If you can just shoot any direction you want this is not twitch targeting and WILL destroy the usefulness of targeting debuffs. While I have presented what you consider a straw-man argument your response has not addressed this fundamental issue and reason for my assertion.

Redlynne wrote:

Where I come from, changing how something works is neither equal to nor equivalent to making it cease to exist.

The reason the CoH system "worked" is not because vector targeting "works" but because it had the secondary component of static combat. The introduction of "moving targets" immediately makes that mechanic not work anymore. Whether ground targeting "works" is largely dependent on combat mobility in City of Titans. For this reason I reject your assertion that it "works".

Redlynne wrote:

I would appreciate it if you stopped making stuff up and attributing it to me. The quote feature works just fine. Feel free to make use of it.

I apologize I do not attribute all of my assertions to responses to your post. BUT I agree with everything you state here. I do apologize if you feel those assertions were/are attributed to you.

I tend to separate thought with the "- -" for this specific reason. When responding to a comment I usually make citation (for myself as much as for the author). I did not in the last post and it can be taken as ALL a response to you and for that I will go edit it appropriately.

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Jay, let me posit a scenario

Jay, let me posit a scenario using your 'No ground targeting/target a destructible object near me instead' scenario:

You use any of a number of powers to destroy ALL of the destructible targets near you and then wait. Target approaches, you Placate him and now he cannot attack because he has nothing nearby to target. You have a counter for his ability to attack you while Placated, his only option is retreat.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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There are PBAoE powers first
Comicsluvr wrote:

Jay, let me posit a scenario using your 'No ground targeting/target a destructible object near me instead' scenario:
You use any of a number of powers to destroy ALL of the destructible targets near you and then wait. Target approaches, you Placate him and now he cannot attack because he has nothing nearby to target. You have a counter for his ability to attack you while Placated, his only option is retreat.

There exist vector less targeting powers (PBAoE powers) first off. The placating target is not unharmable. Acting as tho retreat (not buff your defenses, not find alternative ways to attack, not stealth yourself, not any number of alternative mechanics besides DPS) is the only option you are ignoring ALL the mechanics i put in parenthesis.

If players do not have the skill to think of something else to do besides "um.. keep pressing the powers like normal.. they are supposed to WORK, GatDammit!" then they are precisely the players who SHOULD be susceptible to target control tactics.(Weak minded)

- -

ALSO where is this "controller fear" coming from.. are we under the assumption that controllers do great DPS and/or have high damage mitigation? F.E.A.R. aka False Evidence Appearing Real. This is not a freeform game.. this is not a pick your balance game.. this is not a vector targeting game (as it has been described). I am completely sincere in my surprise to hear such an apparent desire for vector targeting in a game that people want to label as "mobile and non-twitch".

- -

A placated target directly attacks (does damage to) an enemy the effect is usually worn off.. This is a generally accepted rule about ALL mez.. if the mez caster is doing high DPS to the target it becomes imbalanced. I simply do not see the scenario where a control power is "op and must be nerfed" when mez AND mez resistance have been handled correctly.

- -

It sets a dangerous precedent for the future of all control powers. Be they "threat/target control or movement control or perception control or attack strength control". It is designed to be target control. If you don't want it to successfully work as targeting control you're calling for a nerf to a control mechanic. Not the nerf of a build that uses a nerf mechanic (which I expect Controllers to do much less damage than DPS builds) but the entire mechanic itself. And the mechanic you keep is vector targeting.. something that in EVERY OTHER SENSE players have said they do not want.

- -

Am I understanding the opposing arguments to revolve around the basis that "targeting debuffs are too strong"?

This is a debatable point but it will all be based on opinion.

- -

Players will always characterize "controlling other characters" as overpowered. And in every game I've played to date the mechanic has been decimated to follow the whims of the "player base" to spite the minority controller players. If we are going to approach game mechanics under the guise that "control powers should all be useless" then I will simply regret my support of the game.

- -

IF the paradigm is to involve vector targeting, then by all means make mechanics for "Attack wherever I feel like it" powers. But please don't think this decision lives in a bubble, even if that bubble is "they worked in CoH".

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Are trollers getting an AoE

Are trollers getting an AoE placate patch?
Sounds a bit broken.

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/Segev

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"There exist vector less

"There exist vector less targeting powers (PBAoE powers) first off. The placating target is not unharmable. Acting as tho retreat (not buff your defenses, not find alternative ways to attack, not stealth yourself, not any number of alternative mechanics besides DPS) is the only option you are ignoring ALL the mechanics i put in parenthesis.

If players do not have the skill to think of something else to do besides "um.. keep pressing the powers like normal.. they are supposed to WORK, GatDammit!" then they are precisely the players who SHOULD be susceptible to target control tactics.(Weak minded)"

Again, if you're Placated the target doesn't want to attack you with ANYTHING. Or they shouldn't anyway. So we either have one extreme or the other. You want Placate to work so that the target can only hit you with certain attacks? How about all of the OTHER powers you have? Sounds like you're hinging your whole strategy on a single power. Not good.

As for fear of Controllers...unless we change the binary nature of Control mechanics then Hard Controls will always be OP when dealing with another player. The idea that with two shots you could conceivably render your target helpless is what worries me. I've never liked the way Controls worked in PvP. You want two guys smashing away at each other? Works for me. You want two guys ducking for cover around terrain while they blast at each other? Yep...that works too. But 'Hey there I'm HELD'? Nope...no thanks. By the way...

Insulting other players is one of the many reasons why PvP fails in every game I've ever played. Sure, 'Weak minded' is much less insulting than 'lol noob lrn2play' but the result is the same. The PvP portion of the game will wind up the same as it did in CoH with that attitude. A contingent of double-digit players bragging about how l33t they are with their multi-billion Inf builds and crying because they have nobody to gank any more. So go ahead, call a goodly percentage of the players 'weak minded' just because they approach the game more casually than you do. You'll be doing lots of RP and very little playing I think.

It's no wonder I never PvP...

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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@Comicsluvr I wasn't calling

@Comicsluvr I wasn't calling any player weak minded particularly but rather speaking to the idea the telepaths and other forms of mind manipulation work better on weak players. I don't know if that comes off as l33t speak but that was not the intent.

- -
@All
Placate is not "the enemy cannot hit you". Placate IS the target cannot target you. I'm still trying to find the reasoning behind our misunderstanding of each other. It's a form of threat control in PvP. In Champions Online it's the equivalent of using Paliate with the absolve advantage. When used in PvP the target cannot lock into you. The power worked as intended .. until the game decided to introduce vector targeting.

- -

@GH I sincerely hope controllers don't need a placate AoE in order to perform their needed function of targeting debuffs.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Placate is not "the enemy cannot hit you". Placate IS the target cannot target you. I'm still trying to find the reasoning behind our misunderstanding of each other.

Placate
Entities affected: Foe
Entities autohit: Foe
Target: Foe

Seems pretty clear to me that you can't (and wouldn't want to) use Placate on a Friendly ... meaning it only gets used on Enemies. The net effect is that the only legal targets for the Power are Enemies ... therefore: "the target enemy cannot attack you directly."

We really shouldn't have to be explaining this to you, JayBezz.

JayBezz wrote:

It's a form of threat control in PvP.

Threat is purely a contrivance of PvE that guides decision making by the NPC AI algorithms. Threat is a meaningless concept in PvP because Players are not (directly) controlled by those same formulas and algorithms ... which is why PvP does not play like PvE (because Players tend to be "smarter than that" although there are always exceptions).

At best you can aim for "similar results through alternative means" by denying both target acquisition (the basic purpose of Placate) and perception of the Placate Caster (simulating Threat removal in PvP) so as to align PvP gameplay performance along similar lines to the PvE performance. Anything beyond that starts getting into $DEITY Mode and "IWIN!" buttons of overpowered denial of action to Placated Foes in PvP in order to enforce Placate Supremacy over all other mechanics.


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"If players do not have the

"If players do not have the skill to think of something else to do besides "um.. keep pressing the powers like normal.. they are supposed to WORK, GatDammit!" then they are precisely the players who SHOULD be susceptible to target control tactics.(Weak minded)"

Sounds pretty clear to me.

The point is you used is 'player' rather than 'character'. Just reminding you of the difference between the two...

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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@Redlynne if you are

@Redlynne if you are unwilling to translate threat into PvP then I believe we've found the fundamental point of contention between our points of view. I DO advocate for threat mechanics in PvP. Also in your cited example your still advocate placate as stealth mechanics

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As a clarification of nuance

As a clarification of nuance to my last post (having had time to think things over even more) ...

We do not dispute that a rightful and proper functioning of the Placate debuff is to prevent DIRECT targeting of the Placate Caster. That is the way it should be.

What we object to is that the Placate debuff should be so powerful as to also prevent even INDIRECT methods of harming (not targeting, but merely harming) the Placate Caster through use of AoE attacks. You, JayBezz, are advocating a position in which Placate ought to be able to "trump" even indirectly targeted means and methods of attacks.

Add the ban on direct targeting as well as indirect targeting together and you get an all encompassing $DEITY Mode "invulnerability" on the Caster against the target of the Placate debuff ... hence my assertion that you want Placate to function in a manner not unlike an "IWIN!" button (even if the effect is only temporary until the Placate Caster attacks the Placate debuffed target).

Furthermore, your desire to remove Target: Location from the game entirely will "foil" a fairly wide number of "prep for combat" actions that typically involve the opening of doors, use of corners to block Line of Sight, and other "tactical" moves in which ambush zones can be created prior to combat being engaged due to the fact that a Foe Target is not required in order to deploy the Power pre-emptively. I'm thinking mainly in terms of sprinkling Caltrops along a hallway in preparation for a fight so as to create a "kill zone" rather than doing so AFTER the Foes have moved into position in order to "allow" that to be done. Caltrops is just one of those Powers where the expectation is that deploying them as a PBAoE "makes no sense" while deploying them as a Target AoE "makes perfect sense" and that the presence of a Foe is not "required" in order to be able to do that, since Caltrops are intended to be used as an ambush weapon, rather than just purely as a reactive weapon.


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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I DO advocate for threat mechanics in PvP.

Except that Player choices (and actions) are not constrained by Threat mechanics (unlike NPC AI algorithms) ... and in a lot of ways it is a Fool's Errand to even try. Best you can do is translate and simulate some of the effects ON decision making that Threat mechanics are intended to model, through use of a benefit/penalty sort of system to "guide" Player behavior along paths that ought to mimic PvE behaviors ... but outright "enforcement" will simply be far too heavy handed because at that point you have the game developers "dictating" to the Players how the game is "meant" to be played in PvP, which is rarely a satisfactory solution (re: City of Heroes PvP experience).

I understand what you're aiming for. I just think you're tilting at windmills in trying to achieve it.


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As an idea, from the Wildstar

As an idea, from the Wildstar streams they have mentioned how Taunting will work in PvP environments.

If you have been taunted, you will do less damage to ALL targets apart from to the one who taunted you. I guess this is because of the free form targetting that Wildstar has as well, because unless the tanker is apart from other players on his side, with some clever movement/targetting combinations you can work around the limitation of "always target the one who is taunting me).

And yes, there is a lot of AOE in Wildstar (although there are also hit "1st one in line" attacks as well).

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I was just about to suggest

I was just about to suggest that very thing, Gangrel, so thank you for pre-emptively sharing that with us. ^_~


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Jay...you've said using a

Jay...you've said using a PBAOE is viable, when you take out all targetable objects...well, the ground is a viable target.

If you placate a target and they have a vector based attacked, then it's up to you to move so they can't target where you were. :p Or it's up to you to sneak up on them and placate them before they know where you are.

If we're going to go this route of thinking you have going, we should also say people can't set their camera angle to see 360 degrees around them.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

What we object to is that the Placate debuff should be so powerful as to also prevent even INDIRECT methods of harming (not targeting, but merely harming) the Placate Caster through use of AoE attacks. You, JayBezz, are advocating a position in which Placate ought to be able to "trump" even indirectly targeted means and methods of attacks.

We do not disagree here. I am NOT advocating prevention of indirect harm. That is not an accurate portrayal of my position.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Jay...you've said using a PBAOE is viable, when you take out all targetable objects...well, the ground is a viable target.
If you placate a target and they have a vector based attacked, then it's up to you to move so they can't target where you were. :p Or it's up to you to sneak up on them and placate them before they know where you are.
If we're going to go this route of thinking you have going, we should also say people can't set their camera angle to see 360 degrees around them.

Vector = 0 is not vector targeting. Placating is not stealth. There is no "sneaking" as a placated enemy can still see you in plain sight. They simply cannot target you.. you know the thing where you push tab and their avatar shows up as your target? That is the only visual change. If you click the placating enemy the targeting mechanic (the little avatar that shows you who you're attacking) will detoggle.

- -

I am advocating that the vector for all Line of Sight and Ranged AoE powers (powers that have the ability to hit more than one target at any range) SHOULD be the vector between the player and the target.

- -

Leaving the argument of placate aside.. if you intend to use vector targeting in a 3 dimensional space, how do you deal with flying targets and all other forms of aerial combat?

Vector targeting is a bad mechanic all in itself for 3 dimensional space.

- -

Vector targeting will supersede tab targeting mechanics. ALL tab targeting mechanics are in jeapordy with the introduction of vector targeting.

- -

I hold by my position that ALL vector targeting be unavailable as a gaming mechanic for these reasons.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
I DO advocate for threat mechanics in PvP.
Except that Player choices (and actions) are not constrained by Threat mechanics (unlike NPC AI algorithms) ... and in a lot of ways it is a Fool's Errand to even try. Best you can do is translate and simulate some of the effects ON decision making that Threat mechanics are intended to model, through use of a benefit/penalty sort of system to "guide" Player behavior along paths that ought to mimic PvE behaviors ... but outright "enforcement" will simply be far too heavy handed because at that point you have the game developers "dictating" to the Players how the game is "meant" to be played in PvP, which is rarely a satisfactory solution (re: City of Heroes PvP experience).
I understand what you're aiming for. I just think you're tilting at windmills in trying to achieve it.

What is threat if not a targeting mechanic? Flatly advocating that targeting mechanics not exist for PvP both diminishes the usefulness of both Tanks and Controllers in PvP as both tropes use targeting mechanics heavily.

Being a tank in PvP without targeting mechanics always boils down to "Don't fight that guy, he doesn't die.. only kill the squishy enemies" (which usually means go kill the healer/supporter). Taunts exist specifically to combat this behavior.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Jay...you've said using a PBAOE is viable, when you take out all targetable objects...well, the ground is a viable target.
If you placate a target and they have a vector based attacked, then it's up to you to move so they can't target where you were. :p Or it's up to you to sneak up on them and placate them before they know where you are.
If we're going to go this route of thinking you have going, we should also say people can't set their camera angle to see 360 degrees around them.

Vector = 0 is not vector targeting. Placating is not stealth. There is no "sneaking" as a placated enemy can still see you in plain sight. They simply cannot target you.. you know the thing where you push tab and their avatar shows up as your target? That is the only visual change. If you click the placating enemy the targeting mechanic (the little avatar that shows you who you're attacking) will detoggle.
- -
I am advocating that the vector for all Line of Sight and Ranged AoE powers (powers that have the ability to hit more than one target at any range) SHOULD be the vector between the player and the target.
- -
Leaving the argument of placate aside.. if you intend to use vector targeting in a 3 dimensional space, how do you deal with flying targets and all other forms of aerial combat?
Vector targeting is a bad mechanic all in itself for 3 dimensional space.
- -
Vector targeting will supersede tab targeting mechanics. ALL tab targeting mechanics are in jeapordy with the introduction of vector targeting.
- -
I hold by my position that ALL vector targeting be unavailable as a gaming mechanic for these reasons.

Hmmm...in CoH Placate actually made you invisible to the target. Maybe that's the disconnect you and everyone else seems to have.

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So you are or are not okay

So you are or are not okay with target ground, attack happens?

CoH had one attack, late in game, that was you attack whatever is infront of you and it was melee based.

CoH had lots of attacks that where target ground attack happens there.

None of that effected CoH's tab targeting system.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

So you are or are not okay with target ground, attack happens?
CoH had one attack, late in game, that was you attack whatever is infront of you and it was melee based.
CoH had lots of attacks that where target ground attack happens there.
None of that effected CoH's tab targeting system.

In a game like wildstar and Everquest next the combat can be vector based becuause it happens on one plane at a time (no flight). The second you introduce 3 dimensional space models you need to adjust targeting to respect that (something extremely hard to do on a 2D screen)

So unless you address this issue fliers will get a free pass and ground heroes are all at a distinct disadvantage

- -

I am arguing for tab targeting because the vector of effect is not dependent on 2 dimensional space and instead DOES work on 3 dimensional space.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Jay...you've said using a PBAOE is viable, when you take out all targetable objects...well, the ground is a viable target.
If you placate a target and they have a vector based attacked, then it's up to you to move so they can't target where you were. :p Or it's up to you to sneak up on them and placate them before they know where you are.
If we're going to go this route of thinking you have going, we should also say people can't set their camera angle to see 360 degrees around them.

Vector = 0 is not vector targeting. Placating is not stealth. There is no "sneaking" as a placated enemy can still see you in plain sight. They simply cannot target you.. you know the thing where you push tab and their avatar shows up as your target? That is the only visual change. If you click the placating enemy the targeting mechanic (the little avatar that shows you who you're attacking) will detoggle.
- -
I am advocating that the vector for all Line of Sight and Ranged AoE powers (powers that have the ability to hit more than one target at any range) SHOULD be the vector between the player and the target.
- -
Leaving the argument of placate aside.. if you intend to use vector targeting in a 3 dimensional space, how do you deal with flying targets and all other forms of aerial combat?
Vector targeting is a bad mechanic all in itself for 3 dimensional space.
- -
Vector targeting will supersede tab targeting mechanics. ALL tab targeting mechanics are in jeapordy with the introduction of vector targeting.
- -
I hold by my position that ALL vector targeting be unavailable as a gaming mechanic for these reasons.

Huh? Edsels are bad so let's get rid of ALL cars? Vector targeting doesn't work well in 3-D space so let's throw it out? REALLY? Again, you're advocating a PvP change that would have a major impact on PvE play because the use of something might disturb your use of a SINGLE power?

Yeah... good luck with that...

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

Yeah... good luck with that...

Seconded.
At this point, I'm not even convinced JayBezz understands the cascade of cause and effect his advocacy would have on how the game plays in both PvE *and* in PvP.

/em thumbs down


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Comicsluvr wrote:
Yeah... good luck with that...
Seconded.
At this point, I'm not even convinced JayBezz understands the cascade of cause and effect his advocacy would have on how the game plays in both PvE *and* in PvP.
/em thumbs down

And with this post, I have to say, I love how everyone on the forums can seem to agree on somethings and totally disagree on others :o

Just imagine what the devs are going through when they have to discuss things and their ideas have much more weight!

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

Huh? Edsels are bad so let's get rid of ALL cars? Vector targeting doesn't work well in 3-D space so let's throw it out? REALLY? Again, you're advocating a PvP change that would have a major impact on PvE play because the use of something might disturb your use of a SINGLE power?
Yeah... good luck with that...

I've cited multiple reasoning for my argument and feel reducing it to your re-classification is baseless. If you want to refute any of my many assertions please do but the idea that saying "your argument is invalid" does not provide productive feedback.

I've also cited that it is not a single power but the entire targeting debuff mechanic. From self threat reduction to self threat increase (rather through an attack or a self buff) is not viable when you have vector targeting. And again this is not the fullness of my argument.

I am participating in what I hope to be a debate to shed light on mechanics so the devs have more foresight when planning their game. If someone do not wish to debate the current topic I understand but the personal "You" and "You're" and the like are detrimental to the conversation.

I am not advocating changing the PvE for PvP sake. I am advocating for tab targeting. Period. That permeates through PvE and PvP. I also contest your assertion that the impact would be "major" as the only change would be that the vector of your power is decided by the vector of your target. Something that is seemingly accepted as the norm. But when you see "one of these things is not like the others" because it is NOT tab targeting you should question its reason and existence in terms of game balance. Threat is a PvE and PvP mechanic.

I could go as far as to advocate that YOU are advocating that PvP threat be nerfed.. and not to benefit PvE where threat is not nearly as important. I fail to see the benefit of killing off PvP threat mechanics.

- -

If someone means to assert that vector targeting is not detrimental tab targeting mechanics (Most importantly Threat) I would love to debate it. But if all we want to debate is "JayBezz is wrong" without giving reason against the arguments of which I've placed then it benefits neither you, myself, nor the persons empowered with making decisions.

I suppose debate is a lost art.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I could go as far as to advocate that YOU are advocating that PvP threat be nerfed.. and not to benefit PvE where threat is not nearly as important. I fail to see the benefit of killing off PvP threat mechanics.

You proceed from a FLAWED ASSUMPTION.

Link: THREAT

And I quote from the linked reference:

Quote:

Threat is a value kept by each enemy critter (NPC) for each player it has entered combat with. Enemies will aggro on the highest player (or enemy NPC) on their Threat list.

Conspicuous by its absence is any mention of Threat being either relevant ... or used ... in or for PvP.

JayBezz wrote:

I could go as far as to advocate that YOU are advocating that PvP threat be nerfed

"Threat" was NEVER RELEVANT to PvP to begin with.

JayBezz wrote:

I fail to see the benefit of killing off PvP threat mechanics.

JayBezz ... you haven't even demonstrated that Threat was used historically in City of Heroes PvP ... meaning its relevance to PvP never existed previously. That means that what you are advocating for is a --> FEATURE REQUEST <-- intended to completely re-envision the whole Human/Machine Interface in terms of How To Play The Game.

You state your position as if Threat mechanics in PvP were a prior established norm and fact ... which is demonstrably NOT the case ... and that if such are not included in City of Titans then that is TAKING SOMETHING AWAY from the PvP experience.

The reality is that Threat mechanics NEVER EXISTED in PvP because Player decision processes are not driven by the same algorithms as PvE Foes, meaning that "Threat" mechanics (as such) could only be simulated in PvP in an approximate fashion (that didn't actually make use of "Threat" per se, since Threat was a purely PvE mechanical system). You can't "kill off" what has never existed before.

At BEST, one could claim that a handful of Control Powers ... Taunt, Placate and Confuse ... interfered with a PvP Player's control of their character's available options to targeting of Powers, in a way that was intended and designed to simulate how "Threat" worked in PvE by either constraining and/or "muddling" choices of available targets so as to approximate the effects of Threat mechanics in a PvP environment. The idea was to induce PvE similar behaviors in PvP Players, but the means and method for doing so simply couldn't be "duplicated exactly" by use of Threat mechanics that only work successfully on PvE Foes. If Threat mechanics work "too successfully" in a PvP environment, you reach a tipping point where (in soviet russia!) The Game Plays You ... rather than being a case of You Play The Game.

Taunt, Placate and Confuse are, broadly speaking, Perceptual debuffs/controls that interfere with decision making. The only way you're going to be able to make that "work" against PLAYERS is if you actually alter the information they are seeing ON THEIR SCREENS when they play the game. When Players are affected by these abilities, the game NEEDS TO LIE to the affected Players in order to induce the Players to "behave correctly" in a manner that is (broadly speaking) consistent with how Foe NPCs react to being affected by these Powers.

We can argue all you want about whether or not the "lies" that the City of Heroes game told its Players when affected by Taunt, Placate and Confuse were "convincing enough" or not (ie. if they were effective in inducing the intended behavior patterns) ... but that doesn't change the fact that the Threat mechanics used by Foe NPCs simply does not, and cannot, apply to Players. Alternative means and methods need to be found and used in order to "convincingly" induce Players to behave in a fashion consistent with being Taunted, Placated and/or Confused ... and being able to do that "convincingly" needs to rest of a foundation of the game engine LYING to the Player as to what is *actually* happening ... and "lies" are not "Threat" mechanics, properly speaking.


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Who is talking about City of

Who is talking about City of Heroes? I am not. I am talking about game mechanics and game theory.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Who is talking about City of Heroes? I am not. I am talking about game mechanics and game theory.

Well, going by that route, none of us have idea of what CoT will do, or what is the best course of action.

All we do know, for now, is the plan is tab/targeting like in CoH, and not something like TERA where it's hit the direction you're aiming.

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Which means that we might not

Which means that we might not even HAVE a Placate mechanic which means the whole point is moot. Ok...moving on...

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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@Comicsluvr The thesis of my

@Comicsluvr The thesis of my argument is not solely about placate. The thesis of my argument is "Vector Based targeting is detrimental to tab targeting based mechanics and when coupled with mobile combat becomes a twitch mechanic as it is then unfriendly to motor skill challenged players.

The focus on threat toggling when not defined as stealth is only ONE affirming argument. One that I, as a crowd control enthusiast, am very concerned about.

- -

When has "argument over" ever actually ended an argument, much less provided insight to a position. Disagreement is expected. there are many points of contention in the targeting and twitch debate. But, and I am being sincere here, if you don't have anything to contribute yet then it is perhaps instead time to listen. I say this not as a response to anyone in particular but to the nature of a forum being cordial and debate being a contribution of knowledge and not an airing of grievances.

Brand X wrote:

Well, going by that route, none of us have idea of what CoT will do, or what is the best course of action.
All we do know, for now, is the plan is tab/targeting like in CoH, and not something like TERA where it's hit the direction you're aiming.

To get back to the issue being debated. in the original post it was stated that "ground targeting is not a twitch mechanic" to which I responded (in not so eloquent terms), "ground targeting IS vector targeting and as such is a twitch mechanic. It is even MORESO when mobile content is added.. a variable of which we do not know about yet.

I am advocating instead for tab targeting only because I want to protect the mechanics that come from tab targeting. I am not "against ground targeting". I am saying that IF this game intends to use tab targeting (not vector targeting) it should remain consistent to that paradigm or it opens the door for many mechanics of tab targeting no longer effective.

- -

I would also be interested in an ALL vector targeting game, but the developers of the game mechanics have seemed to already made a decision against them. If this paradigm shift is to exist I am willing to revisit the potential pitfalls

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If that's the case, I would

If that's the case, I would say, while it may sound rude to some, so what? Ground based targeting was never popular in CoH PvP anyways. PvE there was plenty of time to place it, even for those who had some sort of handicap. And lastly, just because you want to make a game like CoH which was generally considered very assessable to motor skill challenged players, they can just not take the power.

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Here's my stance on the whole

Here's my stance on the whole argument: Why reinvent the wheel? The targeting system we had before worked for most situations (Teleport not withstanding unfortunately). We had Tab targeting for most things and Ground Targeting for the rest. I don't recall seeing hordes of complaints over this on the CoH Forums. I see no reason to alter a fundamental game mechanic for no reason whatsoever.

Despite your belief to the contrary, I am not arguing simply to argue. By the way, I don't see lots of folks lining up to defend your side of the argument Jay. If we look at the numerous other threads we obviously have a vocal group here. If they see something they feel strongly about, they'll post. I'm not seeing a lot of support for your position.

The fact that your stance is rooted in a PvP environment is the weak leg I think.

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- -

- -

Brand X wrote:

And lastly, just because you want to make a game like CoH which was generally considered very accessible* to motor skill challenged players, they can just not take the power.

To restate your stance from my point of view:
"The devs should make twitch powers, and the players who cannot hang should just accept that. " - This is a stance I COULD support but only IF it was not stated that "not twitch" was a design goal. Since "anti-twitch" is a design goal I do not support this position.

- -

Comicsluvr wrote:

The targeting system we had before worked for most situations (Teleport not withstanding unfortunately). We had Tab targeting for most things and Ground Targeting for the rest. I don't recall seeing hordes of complaints over this on the CoH Forums.

City of Titans had a combat system that was not entirely action/mobile based. Specifically in PvE. I am very tired of facing enemies that just stand in one spot waiting to be defeated. While mobile combat is not an expressed goal, I am making the case that it is a implied goal. (I hope people here understand the difference between implied consent and expressed consent for the purpose of my argument)

- -

Comicsluvr wrote:

Despite your belief to the contrary, I am not arguing simply to argue.

As I understand it your intent is to express a position contrary to my position. But you are not making a case by simply saying "you're wrong".. I am hoping to get more insight to what I have affectionately called the "I don't like change" position. Even when change by design and for actual reason.

- -

Comicsluvr wrote:

I see no reason to alter a fundamental game mechanic for no reason whatsoever

I have specifically written out a plethora of entirely different arguments. To say "for no reason whatsoever" is to disregard those arguments entirely.

- -

Comicsluvr wrote:

The fact that your stance is rooted in a PvP environment is the weak leg I think.

Targeting systems are universal. SOME parts of my argument are for PvP (Aka not just build parity but also player parity) but this is not the basis of my case for tab targeting only.

- -

Comicsluvr wrote:

By the way, I don't see lots of folks lining up to defend your side of the argument Jay.

This is the fundamental reason we don't vote for judges. Arguments are not popularity contests. Civil Justice DEPENDS on the protection of the minority.

This is not an argument for my case but some supplemental citing so that you understand why this statement does not add merit to your position.

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And six people standing in a

And six people standing in a crowd shouting 'the sky is falling' does not make it true. I have read your arguments and I simply don't see enough benefits to completely altering a system that has already been developed, was played for a number of years and was not only widely accepted but which is now widely EXPECTED.

I'm not saying that your system is necessarily bad...just that this might not be the right place for it. As much as we would like to we cannot completely throw out everything that has come before and rewrite the system. If that was the idea when we began then I'd say go for it...but we didn't. The Devs made it very clear that the basic style of CoT would look very familiar to hat CoH was with improvements. I don't see your system as an improvement as much as a complete rewrite. By its nature it goes beyond the scope of what has been stated that we're trying to do.

If we do what you're asking the goodwill from the KS contributors at the LEAST will be lost.

If we have to agree to disagree then so be it. Neither one of us has an actual game right now to base any facts on which is why I keep going back to what has already been said. I strongly feel that using your suggestion would take the game beyond the realm of what has already been promised to prospective players and KS contributors.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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I think then our expectation

I think then our expectation of what is expected is different.

I expect tab targeting, not because "it was in CoH" as CoH is not the basis for any of my argument. The devs have stated they strive for a "no twitch" gameplay. And the OP states what she thinks is twitch. Most of which I agree with.. the only portion i disagree with is tab targeting.

You, as I understand it, are working from the expectation that the devs design goal is not as much "no twitch" but from the basis of "Just like City of Heroes/Villains".

Your vantage point and mine intersect and there is a difference and I am willing to agree to dissagree. But IF the devs are working from a vantage point that the game should be just like CoH then there's a whole LIST of concerns I have that go MUCH further than placate. Most particularly their binary control system of "held/not held". MY donation would be in jeopardy if this was the basis of their decision making. I didn't support City of Heroes after Champions Online came out. I didn't support City of Titans to be just like City of Heroes.

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I backed this project on the

I backed this project on the basis that it is a successor to CoH.
In my book that means tab targeting...end of.
CoH was never about having l33t dodge skills or being an uber g4m3r.
It was simply THE best game to log in and grab a team for some fun...I know I used the F word there..I shall type it again ... FUN !!!
There was no worry about causing a team wipe because most of the time 1 or 2 chars could carry a team anyway.
All the latest games seem to be going down the "twitch" road and my what an abysmal road it is.
Rift is about the only playable one with the odd "dodge the steaming pool of fire" mechanic thrown in unless you are in a progressive raid guild.
Sure CoH had some end game but in the main it was about having fun while socialising and lvling many many alts :)
I have noticed on the other "successor" forums that there are posts about twitch and it always seems to be some l33t kid banging on about how twitch lets you use "ur skillz" and tab targeting is for losers with "nun skillz".
There was a reason why most ppl enjoyed CoH and it's initials are TT ;)

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While a great many things are

While a great many things are still in very, very early development, and of course the standard "subject to change" clause prevails, thus far we have planned for targeted-location effects. However there may be variables which alter how the location effect takes place, after all a location doesn't necessarily have to be "the ground." At the very least, it may be necessary to allow this for strategic pet placement but there are other considerations as well.


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Deathsurge wrote:
Deathsurge wrote:

I backed this project on the basis that it is a successor to CoH.
In my book that means tab targeting...end of.
CoH was never about having l33t dodge skills or being an uber g4m3r.
It was simply THE best game to log in and grab a team for some fun...I know I used the F word there..I shall type it again ... FUN !!!
There was no worry about causing a team wipe because most of the time 1 or 2 chars could carry a team anyway.
All the latest games seem to be going down the "twitch" road and my what an abysmal road it is.
Rift is about the only playable one with the odd "dodge the steaming pool of fire" mechanic thrown in unless you are in a progressive raid guild.
Sure CoH had some end game but in the main it was about having fun while socialising and lvling many many alts :)
I have noticed on the other "successor" forums that there are posts about twitch and it always seems to be some l33t kid banging on about how twitch lets you use "ur skillz" and tab targeting is for losers with "nun skillz".
There was a reason why most ppl enjoyed CoH and it's initials are TT ;)

TERA is considered twitch and, I hate to use the F word here, but FUN! O.O

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Seconding Brand X here on the

Seconding Brand X here on the point that TERA is incredibly fun to play because it is a very ACTIVE game to play ... so active in fact that the very notion of a "standard attack chain" is just plainly and simply obsolete, due to the fact that the action/reaction cycle of decision making is so sustained and constant. When you play TERA you are really playing the game on so many levels that it is just immersive and incredible all at the same time.


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Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Seconding Brand X here on the point that TERA is incredibly fun to play because it is a very ACTIVE game to play ... so active in fact that the very notion of a "standard attack chain" is just plainly and simply obsolete, due to the fact that the action/reaction cycle of decision making is so sustained and constant. When you play TERA you are really playing the game on so many levels that it is just immersive and incredible all at the same time.

Well, I still found CoH quite fun!

Though, having played quite a few MMOs, I find many of them are all about the same thing, with different names for it...find the best attacks and figure out how to use them most often.

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