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Travel Power set gap closer

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zyric
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Travel Power set gap closer

I was thinking today, what would be pretty cool was if the travel power sets all had a gap closer as one of the optional powers. I would assume that for most of the these gap closers the appropriate travel power would have to be active. The only exception I can really see is teleport.

Some examples are:

  • Dive Bomb (flight): Dive to a target and knock them to the ground doing damage
  • Cannon Ball (Jumping): Jump to a location doing an AOE knock back and minor damage. (This would only work as a gap closer if the knock back wasn't to far)
  • Rhino Charge (SS): Charge into a target knocking him back doing minor damage on the initial hit and more damage if they hit something. (Kind of a positional gap closer. Works great indoors where the target would fly into a wall. Not so well in wide open spaces, but could be used to knock targets off of cliffs.)
  • Shadow Step (TP): Teleport behind target and cause next attack to crit if it hits

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Travel powers aren't like

Travel powers aren't like normal sets. They don't come with combat powers and are separate from your combat power picks.

There may be a tertiary set with movement related combat mechanics customizable to look like many different types of movememt abilities.


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A gap closer would make sense

A gap closer would make sense more as part of your existing powers, rather than a unique power unto itself, perhaps one themed to your character's particulars.

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It would certainly make sense

It would certainly make sense that gap closers and their flip-side, openers, would be related to whatever travel power someone has.

One of the things I've been thinking about is the Fly power. In CoX we were able to fly during combat. Granted, it was more like just a hover, but that is kind of the point I'm making.

Here's what I'm thinking: When out of combat we get the full suite of travel related powers that we have opted for. Admittedly some people may go deeper into their travel powers than others, so lets not get wrapped up into the definition of full suite or worry about how big that full suite is. Lets just assume that there are travel powers that are available only out of combat. But once combat begins, I assume that we are taken out of travel mode like we were in CoX. (if MWM intends to make this non-binary as well, now would be a good time to bring this up)

but just like flyers could still hover even in combat in CoX, perhaps we could have a single travel-related in-combat ability no matter what travel choice we have.

  • if our travel choice is flight, we would get hover.
  • If we have slinging, we would get a harpoon of some sort that could either pull a target to you or pull you to the target, depending on how movable the target is. Target would not have to be another character or NPC, it could be a wall, switch, door, barrell, or vehicle.
  • If we have surfing, we would get hover as well.
  • If we have superjump, we could get an in-combat jump that would either be a gap closer or a gap opener
  • if we have teleport, we would get a teleport themed gap closer or gap opener. In fact, the gap closer could be teleport behind the target, not just to the target.
  • if we have acrobatics, we would get the ability to climb walls and objects even in combat, so in this case the ability would probably just be a toggle that enabled/disabled the ability.
  • if we have superspeed, we would get a gap closer or gap opener.

(I see gap closers and openers only being differentiated by whether a direction key is pressed in combination with the ability or not. If not you close the gap with the targeted creature or advance 10 meters forward if no target is chosen. With a direction key pressed, the character jumps 10m in the direction pressed or next to an object in that direction, whichever is closest.)

Thus when we enter into combat, our suite of travel powers gets reduced to just that one ability that can be activated during combat. Once out of combat, the suite of travel powers expands back to full.

I think this will add additional complexity to character creation. On the other hand, it could make it so that certain travel powers would be more beneficial for certain classes. When I say this I am thinking specifically of the teleport-behind ability for melee DPS and the ability to hover for ranged DPS and support. On the other hand's other hand, if gap closers are provided with certain powersets as @Doctor Tyche stated, then we've added even mo' better flexibility by giving travel power related options as well, thereby making things even more flexible that they were before. I see this as a Win-Win.

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Lovebot - programmed to love man, gives tough love to mankind
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Why shouldn't my super

Why shouldn't my super-jumping ninja be able to dash short ranges to close or open gaps?

Come on, don't demand prerequisites we don't have to have.

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I just hope MWM's previous

I just hope MWM's previous stance on this topic hasn't changed: that gap-closing powers will be somewhat of a rarity, and not a standard for everyone. In that light, I can see why such an ability would be part of the power sets.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Travel powers aren't like normal sets. They don't come with combat powers and are separate from your combat power picks.
There may be a tertiary set with movement related combat mechanics customizable to look like many different types of movememt abilities.

Now that is a cool idea. Having a a tertiary combat movement power set that has things like single target gap closer, targeted area gap closer, and a gap extender which allows you to slot different animations such as TP, acrobatic flips, or even slithering across the ground. Very nice.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I just hope MWM's previous stance on this topic hasn't changed: that gap-closing powers will be somewhat of a rarity, and not a standard for everyone. In that light, I can see why such an ability would be part of the power sets.

Why would that be a improvement? This is a supers game, and in supers there is a lot of movement being done!! Why should it be rare for a speedster to run up and punch a guy?

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I just hope MWM's previous stance on this topic hasn't changed: that gap-closing powers will be somewhat of a rarity, and not a standard for everyone. In that light, I can see why such an ability would be part of the power sets.

Why would that be a improvement? This is a supers game, and in supers there is a lot of movement being done!! Why should it be rare for a speedster to run up and punch a guy?

One thing I forgot to consider, which your post brought to mind, is the whole aesthetic decoupling concept. So if you choose a travel powerset, it could very well be possible that you then unlock a suite of aesthetic options for all your powers that allow you to make it look like it came from your travel power.

Here are some examples of how to animate a blaster's base ranged attack depending on the travel power chosen. Remember this whole post is pure speculation, but it could work:

  1. If you have superspeed and a ranged attack, one of your options is to race forward, punch the opponent in the nose and race back to where you started. From a powers point of view the damage would be the same and the animation duration would be the same as any other ranged attack, just the appearance would be different.
  2. If you use surfer type travel, you get to choose if you surf on a silver longboard, a goblin sled, a horverboard, a wagonwheel, a stuffed animal or the backs of a pair of flying serpents. That same ranged attack would be different depending if you were hovering on your platform or standing on the ground. If hovering, the attack would shoot your platform out from under you at your opponent then returning to hovering near you, causing damage to your opponent and causing you to drop to the ground. If you are very high up, then you could have time to enter hover mode again before you hit the ground. If you were already on the ground, then your platform should already be hovering near you and it would just shoot to your opponent and back. A variant of this would be to materialize and dematerialize your platform just for the attack, but I don't like that as much.
  3. If you are a flyer, I would expect the animation to me like superspeed, allowing you to swoop to your opponent and back in the time it takes to animate the power. I really don't see this as a viable option for some of the instant cast, short cooldown attacks and would probably only make it available for the bigger, longer attacks. Another variant would be to simply add your platform as an additional point of origin for your ranged attacks.
  4. If you were a slinger, then your attack would be a dart of some sort. If you used webs, it would be a hard congealed ball of webbing, if you used ziplines, then it would probably just be a bolt of some sort, like from a crossbow.
  5. If you were a superjumper, your options would be more limited. Perhaps doing something like earthbending, which is surprisingly like what DCUO does for their Brawler ranged attack. In this game, since superjump is a lower-body thing, I would limit the attacks to just feet. So I would have the animation be to Kick up a rock from the ground with one foot and kick it towards your opponent with the other foot.
  6. If you were an acrobat, I think your travel-related options would be even more limited. The only options I could think of would be options that would (or should) already be available from your existing aesthetic options for the power already, such as shiriken, daggers, playing cards, etc. I suppose there could be some aesthetic options reserved only for those characters that have the acrobat travel power.

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Thunderbird Priest - conduit of the Thunderbird spirit
Lovebot - programmed to love man, gives tough love to mankind
Schwarzchild - singularity-manipulating time traveller is lost

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For a speedster, it shouldn't
notears wrote:

Why would that be a improvement? This is a supers game, and in supers there is a lot of movement being done!! Why should it be rare for a speedster to run up and punch a guy?

For a speedster, it shouldn't. But for an Ajax type (if you'll forgive the WtCverse slang) it would be more of a stroll, easily mimicked by normal movement, with a Strong Melee Attack as soon as the range is short enough. And a ranger wouldn't close at all, she would just try to keep out of melee range and take potshots.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

It would certainly make sense that gap closers and their flip-side, openers, would be related to whatever travel power someone has.
One of the things I've been thinking about is the Fly power. In CoX we were able to fly during combat. Granted, it was more like just a hover, but that is kind of the point I'm making.
Here's what I'm thinking: When out of combat we get the full suite of travel related powers that we have opted for. Admittedly some people may go deeper into their travel powers than others, so lets not get wrapped up into the definition of full suite or worry about how big that full suite is. Lets just assume that there are travel powers that are available only out of combat. But once combat begins, I assume that we are taken out of travel mode like we were in CoX. (if MWM intends to make this non-binary as well, now would be a good time to bring this up)
but just like flyers could still hover even in combat in CoX, perhaps we could have a single travel-related in-combat ability no matter what travel choice we have.
if our travel choice is flight, we would get hover.
If we have slinging, we would get a harpoon of some sort that could either pull a target to you or pull you to the target, depending on how movable the target is. Target would not have to be another character or NPC, it could be a wall, switch, door, barrell, or vehicle.
If we have surfing, we would get hover as well.
If we have superjump, we could get an in-combat jump that would either be a gap closer or a gap opener
if we have teleport, we would get a teleport themed gap closer or gap opener. In fact, the gap closer could be teleport behind the target, not just to the target.
if we have acrobatics, we would get the ability to climb walls and objects even in combat, so in this case the ability would probably just be a toggle that enabled/disabled the ability.
if we have superspeed, we would get a gap closer or gap opener.

(I see gap closers and openers only being differentiated by whether a direction key is pressed in combination with the ability or not. If not you close the gap with the targeted creature or advance 10 meters forward if no target is chosen. With a direction key pressed, the character jumps 10m in the direction pressed or next to an object in that direction, whichever is closest.)
Thus when we enter into combat, our suite of travel powers gets reduced to just that one ability that can be activated during combat. Once out of combat, the suite of travel powers expands back to full.
I think this will add additional complexity to character creation. On the other hand, it could make it so that certain travel powers would be more beneficial for certain classes. When I say this I am thinking specifically of the teleport-behind ability for melee DPS and the ability to hover for ranged DPS and support. On the other hand's other hand, if gap closers are provided with certain powersets as @Doctor Tyche stated, then we've added even mo' better flexibility by giving travel power related options as well, thereby making things even more flexible that they were before. I see this as a Win-Win.

Are you really suggesting that our travel powers have completely different behaviour and/or speeds depending on if we were in or out of combat? Personally I would not like that since I would not want my super jump turned into combat jump just because I landed a little bit too close to a group of enemies and aggroed them. Travel powers are supposed to be a fully viable choice for quickly getting away from enemies.

Having these combine with movement keys are not really appropriate imo since it turns too much towards action/twitch mechanics. If you want more freedom in where to move then just make it ground targeted. Too many of the suggestions for the in-combat version are too close to each other mechanically speaking and the small differentiating factors would be more suited for augments/enhancements. I don't want to have to choose a specific travel power just because it has my preferred in-combat "movement ability".

In-combat movement abilities are best suited to be put into their own tertiary set. It gives the most flexibility since it doesn't "force" one to take other powers they don't really want to and there is no mechanical overlap.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:
It would certainly make sense that gap closers and their flip-side, openers, would be related to whatever travel power someone has.
One of the things I've been thinking about is the Fly power. In CoX we were able to fly during combat. Granted, it was more like just a hover, but that is kind of the point I'm making.
Here's what I'm thinking: When out of combat we get the full suite of travel related powers that we have opted for. Admittedly some people may go deeper into their travel powers than others, so lets not get wrapped up into the definition of full suite or worry about how big that full suite is. Lets just assume that there are travel powers that are available only out of combat. But once combat begins, I assume that we are taken out of travel mode like we were in CoX. (if MWM intends to make this non-binary as well, now would be a good time to bring this up)
but just like flyers could still hover even in combat in CoX, perhaps we could have a single travel-related in-combat ability no matter what travel choice we have.
if our travel choice is flight, we would get hover.
If we have slinging, we would get a harpoon of some sort that could either pull a target to you or pull you to the target, depending on how movable the target is. Target would not have to be another character or NPC, it could be a wall, switch, door, barrell, or vehicle.
If we have surfing, we would get hover as well.
If we have superjump, we could get an in-combat jump that would either be a gap closer or a gap opener
if we have teleport, we would get a teleport themed gap closer or gap opener. In fact, the gap closer could be teleport behind the target, not just to the target.
if we have acrobatics, we would get the ability to climb walls and objects even in combat, so in this case the ability would probably just be a toggle that enabled/disabled the ability.
if we have superspeed, we would get a gap closer or gap opener.
(I see gap closers and openers only being differentiated by whether a direction key is pressed in combination with the ability or not. If not you close the gap with the targeted creature or advance 10 meters forward if no target is chosen. With a direction key pressed, the character jumps 10m in the direction pressed or next to an object in that direction, whichever is closest.)
Thus when we enter into combat, our suite of travel powers gets reduced to just that one ability that can be activated during combat. Once out of combat, the suite of travel powers expands back to full.
I think this will add additional complexity to character creation. On the other hand, it could make it so that certain travel powers would be more beneficial for certain classes. When I say this I am thinking specifically of the teleport-behind ability for melee DPS and the ability to hover for ranged DPS and support. On the other hand's other hand, if gap closers are provided with certain powersets as @Doctor Tyche stated, then we've added even mo' better flexibility by giving travel power related options as well, thereby making things even more flexible that they were before. I see this as a Win-Win.
Are you really suggesting that our travel powers have completely different behaviour and/or speeds depending on if we were in or out of combat?

I remember when Travel Power Suppression happened in CoH. I was not a fan, and it wasn't even from a PvP perspective as I am not a PvP fan. One of the great things about CoH, before TPS, was the speed at which we could move and attack, at least it was for myself and my fellow core group of players. I would prefer it wasn't a thing in CoT. After all, shouldn't CoT be all the good things that CoH was and improve upon the few areas that it was lacking? And, conceptually, shouldn't a speedster always be able to move at lightning speed?

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Are you really suggesting that our travel powers have completely different behaviour and/or speeds depending on if we were in or out of combat? Personally I would not like that since I would not want my super jump turned into combat jump just because I landed a little bit too close to a group of enemies and aggroed them. Travel powers are supposed to be a fully viable choice for quickly getting away from enemies.

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting. Although it would not just require that you aggro them, that doesn't put you into combat. Combat begins when they've actually successfullly hit you with an attack that does a certain amount of damage. Other games have called this a forced dismount. And the higher level you are and the higher quality your mount is, the harder it would be to successfully dismount you. I expect the same thing will be in CoT. Although without actual mounts, we could just make it a HP threshold modified by your charatcer level as well as any successful control status effects placed upon you. If I am wrong, then that's just one more assumption out the window.

blacke4dawn wrote:

Having these combine with movement keys are not really appropriate imo since it turns too much towards action/twitch mechanics. If you want more freedom in where to move then just make it ground targeted. Too many of the suggestions for the in-combat version are too close to each other mechanically speaking and the small differentiating factors would be more suited for augments/enhancements. I don't want to have to choose a specific travel power just because it has my preferred in-combat "movement ability".

You say potato and I say french fries. I would prefer a combination direction key+button press for my directional abilities. If you like click-and-hold to place a destination, I suppose that's your preference. But in the heat of battle, I don't like press and hold to do that because now I have to change my camera angle (which usually means I misfire my move because I had to release the button to move my camera, and I hate premature teleportation. Add to that the fact that I have to find where I left my mouse cursor when I selected the ability. ( I use keybinds to fire off attacks, not mouse clicks, so my mouse is usually at one of the screen's edges being used to move my camera around.)

blacke4dawn wrote:

In-combat movement abilities are best suited to be put into their own tertiary set. It gives the most flexibility since it doesn't "force" one to take other powers they don't really want to and there is no mechanical overlap.

I refer to the first response above. Once forcefully dismounted into combat, it is assumed that the full suite of travel powers would not be available to you until you resolve the combat by defeating your foes or running away. If that is an icorrect assumtion then I will stand corrected, but it is assumed because it is the norm of the genre.

Potential Titans:
Trap Spider - the little spider rides a big robot
Thunderbird Priest - conduit of the Thunderbird spirit
Lovebot - programmed to love man, gives tough love to mankind
Schwarzchild - singularity-manipulating time traveller is lost

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

I remember when Travel Power Suppression happened in CoH. I was not a fan, and it wasn't even from a PvP perspective as I am not a PvP fan. One of the great things about CoH was the speed at which things happened, at least it was for myself and my fellow core group of players. I would prefer it wasn't a thing in CoT. After all, shouldn't CoT be all the good things that CoH was and improve upon the few areas that it was lacking? And, conceptually, shouldn't a speedster always be able to move at lightning speed?

I've also struggled with this.
From a lore perspective, I should still be able to teleport whether I'm in battle or not. ...of course, there could also be a lore explanation for why you couldn't as well...

But from a gameplay perspective, there must be a reason that ALL games have a dismount when in combat phenomenon. (exception: Archeage allows you to remain mounted in combat) Without actually interviewing any game designers about it, I have surmised this is to prevent characters from just strolling past NPCs they should otherwise be wary of, as well as to prevent player characters from using fast-travel to get out of a combat they are losing. I could definitely see this as a means to grief other players. Deliberately aggroing all the mobs away from other players, then then zooming away. Besides, who would need a bubbler if you could teleport out of combat every time you get to 50% health? No there are just too many reasons why game designers make you commit to a battle once you've started it, or allowed it to start by your own mistake.

Potential Titans:
Trap Spider - the little spider rides a big robot
Thunderbird Priest - conduit of the Thunderbird spirit
Lovebot - programmed to love man, gives tough love to mankind
Schwarzchild - singularity-manipulating time traveller is lost

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Why shouldn't my super-jumping ninja be able to dash short ranges to close or open gaps?
Come on, don't demand prerequisites we don't have to have.

Indeed - a lot of concepts could be realized with the right animations. No need for hard prerequisites or "linked powers".

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Personally, I think gap

Personally, I think gap-closers belong in the attack-powers and not in the travel powers. Keep them separate things with different functions. Travel for traveling, Attack for attacking. That's what makes sense to me.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
I remember when Travel Power Suppression happened in CoH. I was not a fan, and it wasn't even from a PvP perspective as I am not a PvP fan. One of the great things about CoH was the speed at which things happened, at least it was for myself and my fellow core group of players. I would prefer it wasn't a thing in CoT. After all, shouldn't CoT be all the good things that CoH was and improve upon the few areas that it was lacking? And, conceptually, shouldn't a speedster always be able to move at lightning speed?
I've also struggled with this.
From a lore perspective, I should still be able to teleport whether I'm in battle or not. ...of course, there could also be a lore explanation for why you couldn't as well...
But from a gameplay perspective, there must be a reason that ALL games have a dismount when in combat phenomenon. (exception: Archeage allows you to remain mounted in combat) Without actually interviewing any game designers about it, I have surmised this is to prevent characters from just strolling past NPCs they should otherwise be wary of, as well as to prevent player characters from using fast-travel to get out of a combat they are losing. I could definitely see this as a means to grief other players. Deliberately aggroing all the mobs away from other players, then then zooming away. Besides, who would need a bubbler if you could teleport out of combat every time you get to 50% health? No there are just too many reasons why game designers make you commit to a battle once you've started it, or allowed it to start by your own mistake.

From what I recall, the reasoning for the change wasn't about agro management or even mis-management. It was the balance of risk versus reward where basically you could joust the target with next to zero chance of reprisal. And, as you put it, from a gameplay perspective, there needs to be a reason for the change. I agree but basically only the premise that there should be balance, not necessarily the implementation that spoils a core concept and/or functionality of a classic superhero power such as superspeed (or even TP).

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Personally, I think gap-closers belong in the attack-powers and not in the travel powers. Keep them separate things with different functions. Travel for traveling, Attack for attacking. That's what makes sense to me.
Be Well!
Fireheart

That's the plan and why Travel Powers have their own power picks separate (and in addition to) your combat powers.


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Are travel powers and these

Are travel powers and these gap closers going to work differently in PVP? IE if I'm a bubbler and I've got a big repulsion field up can another player use a gap closer to warp through that field? Will there be travel suppression in PVP combat to hinder jousting?

Can you set up an arena specifically for Jousting? Each player starts at the end of a long hall and has to race towards their opponent to cast a single power. After casting that power they are warped back to the start for a second and third pass whoever does the most damage after 3 passes wins. Powers do not recharge between passes. Sounds simple but there is some gamesmanship that can occur. I could sacrifice my damage for a round by using a power like MOG if I think my opponent is going to use their heaviest hitting power.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Are you really suggesting that our travel powers have completely different behaviour and/or speeds depending on if we were in or out of combat? Personally I would not like that since I would not want my super jump turned into combat jump just because I landed a little bit too close to a group of enemies and aggroed them. Travel powers are supposed to be a fully viable choice for quickly getting away from enemies.

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting. Although it would not just require that you aggro them, that doesn't put you into combat. Combat begins when they've actually successfullly hit you with an attack that does a certain amount of damage. Other games have called this a forced dismount. And the higher level you are and the higher quality your mount is, the harder it would be to successfully dismount you. I expect the same thing will be in CoT. Although without actual mounts, we could just make it a HP threshold modified by your charatcer level as well as any successful control status effects placed upon you. If I am wrong, then that's just one more assumption out the window.

Seems we have a bit different definition of the "in-combat" status.

In my experience in-combat status happens as soon as an enemy aggroes you (and very often also group members if they are close enough), regardless of what else has happened. For convenience sake most games don't immediately remove some other "statuses"/activities that can't be initiated while in combat, like mounted, the second you enter combat but rather attaches other conditions for that. It seems to me you are talking about entering "active combat" rather than the game mechanical status of "in combat".

With that out of the way I have nothing against being knocked/forced out of "travel power mode" if sufficient damage or certain CC effects are applied, and even suppressing travel powers completely while under certain effects. I'm just not so keen on having the travels powers exhibit two completely different behaviors depending on if I am in or out of combat. If we really are going to suppress travel powers during combat then I feel that there should be a timer that if you can get it so that you aren't hit during a certain time period then you can get back the full effect of your travel power.

Huckleberry wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Having these combine with movement keys are not really appropriate imo since it turns too much towards action/twitch mechanics. If you want more freedom in where to move then just make it ground targeted. Too many of the suggestions for the in-combat version are too close to each other mechanically speaking and the small differentiating factors would be more suited for augments/enhancements. I don't want to have to choose a specific travel power just because it has my preferred in-combat "movement ability".

You say potato and I say french fries. I would prefer a combination direction key+button press for my directional abilities. If you like click-and-hold to place a destination, I suppose that's your preference. But in the heat of battle, I don't like press and hold to do that because now I have to change my camera angle (which usually means I misfire my move because I had to release the button to move my camera, and I hate premature teleportation. Add to that the fact that I have to find where I left my mouse cursor when I selected the ability. ( I use keybinds to fire off attacks, not mouse clicks, so my mouse is usually at one of the screen's edges being used to move my camera around.)

Not sure what you are on here. In normal MMORPG mode then ground placed abilities are "initiated/activated" by pressing the ability (can be either keybind or mouse-click) and then "executed" by mouse-click. In "mouse lock mode" (the more active or twitchy forms of control schemes) you can just have it "execute" at the place where the crosshair is pointed at. No real need for press and hold or loosing control of where it will be placed. It all depends on the options given to us by the devs.

The big "limitation" with including direction keys is that it limits you to a fixed distance and some fixed directions (8 directions at best, much more common to only have 4). Though thinking a bit more about this it just looks a bit too close to active dodge/avoidance to me, and that is not something I feel is needed for this game since it won't be that twitchy.

Huckleberry wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

In-combat movement abilities are best suited to be put into their own tertiary set. It gives the most flexibility since it doesn't "force" one to take other powers they don't really want to and there is no mechanical overlap.

I refer to the first response above. Once forcefully dismounted into combat, it is assumed that the full suite of travel powers would not be available to you until you resolve the combat by defeating your foes or running away. If that is an icorrect assumtion then I will stand corrected, but it is assumed because it is the norm of the genre.

And just because it is the norm doesn't mean that we have to follow it, but also irrelevant to the point I was making. The point I was making was that I don't think that tying in-combat movement together with travel powers is a good idea. It is better that they are separate powers since it gives the most flexibility with the least amount of overlap.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

Are travel powers and these gap closers going to work differently in PVP? IE if I'm a bubbler and I've got a big repulsion field up can another player use a gap closer to warp through that field? Will there be travel suppression in PVP combat to hinder jousting?
Can you set up an arena specifically for Jousting? Each player starts at the end of a long hall and has to race towards their opponent to cast a single power. After casting that power they are warped back to the start for a second and third pass whoever does the most damage after 3 passes wins. Powers do not recharge between passes. Sounds simple but there is some gamesmanship that can occur. I could sacrifice my damage for a round by using a power like MOG if I think my opponent is going to use their heaviest hitting power.

Our intent is to have very little functional difference between pve and pvp.
It remains to be seen. What the result would be if a gapmclosing attack through a repulsion power.
Most likely - the gap closer pulls off its attack, then the attacker is repulses on the following repulsion (due to how the combat engine works).

There is a version of suppression that is game-wide. Though not has "harsh"'as in coh either.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

There is a version of suppression that is game-wide. Though not has "harsh"'as in coh either.

Three second suppression instead of four? >.> <.<

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
There is a version of suppression that is game-wide. Though not has "harsh"'as in coh either.
Three second suppression instead of four? >.> <.<

A four second suppression would be fine as long as the speed decreases/increases happened along a "bell curve" instead of a binary on/off manner. What made CoH suppression so annoying was that you'd instantaneously go from like 40mph to 5mph back to 40mph. If you ramped down smoothly for 2 seconds and then ramped back up smoothly for two seconds the overall effect would be far less "jarring" while still fulfilling its basic purpose.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
There is a version of suppression that is game-wide. Though not has "harsh"'as in coh either.
Three second suppression instead of four? >.> <.<
A four second suppression would be fine as long as the speed decreases/increases happened along a "bell curve" instead of a binary on/off manner. What made CoH suppression so annoying was that you'd instantaneously go from like 40mph to 5mph back to 40mph. If you ramped down smoothly for 2 seconds and then ramped back up smoothly for two seconds the overall effect would be far less "jarring" while still fulfilling its basic purpose.

That's what made it so annoying for you. For some of us, as mentioned previously, and myself included, it was annoying and frustrating in it's entirety, not just in it's implementation.

I would like to hear from @Tannim222 on the level of harshness the suppression is going to take, but with more specifics if possible.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
There is a version of suppression that is game-wide. Though not has "harsh"'as in coh either.
Three second suppression instead of four? >.> <.<
A four second suppression would be fine as long as the speed decreases/increases happened along a "bell curve" instead of a binary on/off manner. What made CoH suppression so annoying was that you'd instantaneously go from like 40mph to 5mph back to 40mph. If you ramped down smoothly for 2 seconds and then ramped back up smoothly for two seconds the overall effect would be far less "jarring" while still fulfilling its basic purpose.
That's what made it so annoying for you. For some of us, as mentioned previously, and myself included, it was annoying and frustrating in it's entirety, not just in it's implementation.
I would like to hear from @Tannim222 on the level of harshness the suppression is going to take, but with more specifics if possible.

As annoying as it was, suppression existed for for one reason -'jousting. And it was sn issue on both pve and pvp. Players were jousting spawns without significant or any retaliation (including a group who jousted a giant monster).

Now, we have to continue to test and iterate on this so, grain of salt and all that...

As is, some powers don't root you, while others do. Mostly, aoe (cone and radial) will root.
While there will be freedom of movement for many other attacks. However, attacking will reduce movement which will incrementally increase back up in speed (or in certain travel powers, incurr a recharge penalty or range penalty - tbd). Continuing to attack will continue to result in reduced movement.

One thing we have to particularly look at is hoe suppression and movement debuffs combine and affect performance.

Maintly, we want to allow some more freedom of movement, but prevent constant jousting and kiting. Certain powers need to root to prevent some unintended usage and apearance through play.

Just how much, how long, and how quicly to recover movement are all things that need fine tuning.


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I presume that the Devs are

I presume that the Devs are familiar with how GW2 does combat movement-reduction and attack-powers with built-in 'escape' and 'gap-closure' movements. I'll note that it is still possible to 'kite' enemies... well, what I'd call 'combat-kiting', in that one cannot escape All attacks, but can still avoid most melee, while attacking from range. Quite close range.

But that's tactics and strategy... and only really possible due to most of GW2 being Outdoors. Also, PCs don't have trouble tracking a moving target, so it doesn't work as well in PvP.

If not familiar, mention it and I'm sure someone will be happy to describe it.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

That's what made it so annoying for you. For some of us, as mentioned previously, and myself included, it was annoying and frustrating in it's entirety, not just in it's implementation.

The difference is that I accepted the NEED to mitigate jousting (as Tannim222 pointed out). Once you accept the need for a game mechanic to control jousting the only thing left to discuss with the Devs are compromises to make it more tolerable. It's never been a question of not regulating it at all. *shrugs*

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

I would like to hear from @Tannim222 on the level of harshness the suppression is going to take, but with more specifics if possible.

As a point of historical trivia CoH already experimented with removing suppression completely. Their alternative was to impose a -20% global ACC penalty to any combat power during combat while using a travel power. That "solution" only lasted about 3 days after a tremendous amount of whining and QQing about how horribly unfair it was. CoH reimposed suppression and it lasted for years unchanged until the end of the game.

Frankly my alternative of a bell curve based suppression seems far more reasonable and/or likely to happen don't you think?

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

The difference is that I accepted the NEED to mitigate jousting (as Tannim222 pointed out). Once you accept the need for a game mechanic to control jousting the only thing left to discuss with the Devs are compromises to make it more tolerable. It's never been a question of not regulating it at all. *shrugs*

I did accept it, right here:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

From what I recall, the reasoning for the change wasn't about agro management or even mis-management. It was the balance of risk versus reward where basically you could joust the target with next to zero chance of reprisal. And, as you put it, from a gameplay perspective, there needs to be a reason for the change. I agree but basically only the premise that there should be balance, not necessarily the implementation that spoils a core concept and/or functionality of a classic superhero power such as superspeed (or even TP).

Just because someone accepts something doesn't mean they like it. They accept it, albeit begrudgingly.

Lothic wrote:

Frankly my alternative of a bell curve based suppression seems far more reasonable and/or likely to happen don't you think?

Actually, I accept @Tannim222's implementation, mostly because he's a dev for this game and presumably understands the game mechanics to a greater breadth and degree than us. And while it's not ideal for me, I'd rather some powers not suppress travel than all powers suppress travel to some degree or with increasing degree.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Just because someone accepts something doesn't mean they like it. They accept it, albeit begrudgingly.

I liked suppression a lot more than the alternative of a -20% ACC penalty that apparently some of the Devs of CoH favored. Just pointing out things could have always been worse...

I still contend that people found suppression to be "annoying" in CoH based mostly on its binary on/off nature. Had it been more gradual (just like what BOTH Tannim222 and I have mentioned) it would have been far less noticeable thus easier to accept.

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Actually, I accept @Tannim222's implementation, mostly because he's a dev for this game and presumably understands the game mechanics to a greater breadth and degree than us. And while it's not ideal for me, I'd rather some powers not suppress travel than all powers suppress travel to some degree or with increasing degree.

Well like I said Tannim222's idea of suppression that "incrementally increase(s) back up in speed" is roughly what I've been suggesting when I talked about a non-binary alternative. I've been talking about that for years on both the CoH and CoT forums. Sorry that wasn't clear.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I liked suppression a lot more than the alternative of a -20% ACC penalty that apparently some of the Devs of CoH favored. Just pointing out things could have always been worse...

I disagree. At least I could do something about the reduced accuracy within the game via IOs with set bonuses or even other powers, such as Tactics (yes yes I know, it's +ToHit not +Acc) from the Leadership power pool. There was literally nothing that could be done about the travel suppression. And "worse" is based on your perspective.

Lothic wrote:

Well like I said Tannim222's idea of suppression that "incrementally increase(s) back up in speed" is roughly what I've been suggesting when I talked about a non-binary alternative. I've been talking about that for years on both the CoH and CoT forums. Sorry that wasn't clear.

It wasn't. @Tannim222 specifically mentioned some powers would not root while the example of your bell-curve implementation was that all powers would be effected to some degree. That's not the same, however there is eventually some parity between what you and he said.

At this point, I don't feel the conversation is going to bear positive fruit, so I'm going to bow out until something is worth replying to.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

I disagree. At least I could do something about the reduced accuracy within the game via IOs with set bonuses or even other powers, such as Tactics (yes yes I know, it's +ToHit not +Acc) from the Leadership power pool. There was literally nothing that could be done about the travel suppression. And "worse" is based on your perspective.

If a game had a form of joust mitigation that you could just "fix" by building your character in such a way to make it painless then it's not really doing its job is it? The whole point of designing joust mitigation based on mechanics that you CAN'T bypass is that it's going to adequately affect everyone regardless of their build.

My perspective on what is "worse" is obviously subjective but based on how many people screamed bloody murder about the -20% ACC penalty in the chats/forums as compared to suppression I'm willing to grant my opinion a bit of reasonable weight. The ACC penalty implementation was hotfixed within a few days - the suppression mechanic lasted with relatively little public outcry for years. Clearly the playerbase (not just me) considered other things WORSE than suppression.

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

It wasn't. @Tannim222 specifically mentioned some powers would not root while the example of your bell-curve implementation was that all powers would be effected to some degree. That's not the same, however there is eventually some parity between what you and he said.

For what it's worth I never said I didn't expect at least SOME powers to fully root in CoT. Some powers rooted in CoH - why would anyone expect anything different in that specific regard for CoT? Most powers suppressed in CoH while a few fully rooted - whatever version of joust mitigation CoT uses I'd expect that suppress/root ratio to be roughly the same.

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

At this point, I don't feel the conversation is going to bear positive fruit, so I'm going to bow out until something is worth replying to.

Fair enough. Again for what's it's worth I didn't exactly LIKE suppression either. I just understood why some form of joust mitigation was needed and realized that all things being equal suppression was (very arguably) not the worst way the Devs could have dealt with it.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012