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desviper
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Transparent body parts

Transparency has been asked for, idk if confirmed. But I'd like to extend it.

The option for costume pieces to be transparent would be cool. Say there's a ghost who occupies a real suit of armor; it's be cool to have the body transparent, but the armor opaque.

On the other end of the spectrum; hows the idea of turning body parts totally invisible? Having a headless knight or legless toons.

Course the issues with that would be clipping past costume pieces.

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I wouldn't mind being able to

I wouldn't mind being able to adjust the level of transparency for our body parts but there might be an issue with it as far as any PvP might be concerned. I could see where everyone would try to make themselves as "invisible" as possible and somehow use that to make it literally harder to see them in PvP. Maybe they could just make it where as long as you're PvPing you can't wear an outfit that includes any degree of body transparency. *shrugs*

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Hmm, didn't even think of

Hmm, didn't even think of that. I guess you could just disable it for PvP. Your costume might look weird but oh well.

Or, have an always present indicator around a PC, regardless of costume or powers (save for invisibility of course)

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Hmm, didn't even think of that. I guess you could just disable it for PvP. Your costume might look weird but oh well.

Or, have an always present indicator around a PC, regardless of costume or powers (save for invisibility of course)

Right I'm sure there'd be a way to account for transparency without allowing it to become a way for people to exploit the system. It's the same reason that a character's physical height shouldn't make them any harder or easier to hit in this game because if it did everyone would likely make their characters as tiny as possible. ;)

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I mean a smaller character is

I mean a smaller character is harder to click on...

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I mean a smaller character is harder to click on...

It's not just a matter of a smaller character being harder for a player to click on the screen. I was talking more from the actual "to-hit" and accuracy calculations the game would use to determine if one character hits another. If this game was going to be "realistic" it would make it harder for individual attacks to successfully hit smaller targets. Again that's exactly why character size DOESN'T affect accuracy because if it did everyone would make their characters Tinker Bell sized. ;)

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How about this. Individual

How about this. Individual parts can become completely transparent but for whole body you can only go "ghost translucent", and that default clothing can never have any transparency? Sure there are ways to make yourself less visible by having a body color that's hard to see (white and black f.i from my experience) and using a "body" that doesn't have default clothing (if MWM allows it) but I feel that that would be a better solution than just not allowing it in PvP.

Personally though I would be happy with being able to "replace" limbs with "energy constructs" of sorts.

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Couldnt they just have a tab

Couldnt they just have a tab targeting system??? It would just lock on to the enemy your battling.

As foolish as this seems,

Gotem.

From ya boy, Elios.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

desviper wrote:
I mean a smaller character is harder to click on...
It's not just a matter of a smaller character being harder for a player to click on the screen. I was talking more from the actual "to-hit" and accuracy calculations the game would use to determine if one character hits another. If this game was going to be "realistic" it would make it harder for individual attacks to successfully hit smaller targets. Again that's exactly why character size DOESN'T affect accuracy because if it did everyone would make their characters Tinker Bell sized. ;)

Here's a hypothetical idea for you- what if larger toons had more HP? Larger targets do tend to require more force acting upon them to neutralize them. A .44 magnum round may be able to punch clean through body armor, but tank armor is a whole 'nuther story...

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FYI: We ARE supposed to have

FYI: We ARE supposed to have a tab-tageting system, like in CoH, and character size will have no effect on the mechanics of combat.

This has been discussed elsewhere, at length and ad-nauseam.

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TTheDDoctor wrote:
TTheDDoctor wrote:

Here's a hypothetical idea for you- what if larger toons had more HP?

/em record scratch FX

It's a bad idea.


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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

How about this. Individual parts can become completely transparent but for whole body you can only go "ghost translucent", and that default clothing can never have any transparency? Sure there are ways to make yourself less visible by having a body color that's hard to see (white and black f.i from my experience) and using a "body" that doesn't have default clothing (if MWM allows it) but I feel that that would be a better solution than just not allowing it in PvP.
Personally though I would be happy with being able to "replace" limbs with "energy constructs" of sorts.

Easier dev time just to turn it off :p

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TTheDDoctor wrote:
TTheDDoctor wrote:

Here's a hypothetical idea for you- what if larger toons had more HP? Larger targets do tend to require more force acting upon them to neutralize them. A .44 magnum round may be able to punch clean through body armor, but tank armor is a whole 'nuther story...

this was discussed in another thread, and the general consensus (including Devs coming in and commenting) was that it was a bade idea for games that tout aesthetic decoupling.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:
How about this. Individual parts can become completely transparent but for whole body you can only go "ghost translucent", and that default clothing can never have any transparency? Sure there are ways to make yourself less visible by having a body color that's hard to see (white and black f.i from my experience) and using a "body" that doesn't have default clothing (if MWM allows it) but I feel that that would be a better solution than just not allowing it in PvP.
Personally though I would be happy with being able to "replace" limbs with "energy constructs" of sorts.
Easier dev time just to turn it off :p

Technically no since turning it off during PvP would require "extra" implementation (the turning off mechanism) compared to just having my suggestion as baseline, regardless of if it's PvP or PvE.

Maybe I wasn't that clear first time. I wasn't talking only PvP but as baseline, a.k.a in the character creator, so as baseline you can never make a completely invisible character at all. The closest you would be able to do would be a clothed one by having all limbs invisible.

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TTheDDoctor wrote:
TTheDDoctor wrote:

Here's a hypothetical idea for you- what if larger toons had more HP? Larger targets do tend to require more force acting upon them to neutralize them. A .44 magnum round may be able to punch clean through body armor, but tank armor is a whole 'nuther story...

Long story short, there'll still be "optimal combinations" that will skew character creation towards the tallest and shortest lengths for characters.

Personally though I don't think length has much to do with survivability through health/resistance, that would rather be bulk. Think about it, I don't see a 10 foot tall stick-figure type person being able to endure more than a 4 foot stubby-dwarf type person in this regard. So in reality they would have to make a complex formula that take height, muscle and fat into account to modify defense (dodge chance), health and resistance. And since there are no "direct opposites" for each slider there would develop a few optimal body forms depending on what stat you wanted to max or focus on, possibly even one single best body form. So it's just easier to not bother with it.

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Guess my social libertarian

Guess my social libertarian comes out and says "if you want to make your toon totally invisible for PvE, go for it" :p

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City of Ghosts

City of Ghosts

I was tried in City of Heroes. Didn't work out that well.


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Elios Valoryn wrote:
Elios Valoryn wrote:

Couldnt they just have a tab targeting system??? It would just lock on to the enemy your battling.

Fireheart wrote:

FYI: We ARE supposed to have a tab-tageting system, like in CoH, and character size will have no effect on the mechanics of combat.
This has been discussed elsewhere, at length and ad-nauseam.

As Fireheart mentioned there will be a tab-targeting system in CoT. But that doesn't mean that should be an "excuse" to allow people to be able to make their characters too hyper-tiny. If characters could be too small (say less than 2 feet tall) then players could still exploit advantages that would let them work better tactically than average-sized characters. For instance they could hide behind cover that wouldn't be big enough for other players.

Regardless of a tab targeting system there should still be a reasonable "smallest" body size for all sorts of combat/tactical/implementation reasons. Yes we all know that characters like Ant-man exist in the comics but the software mechanics required to make that size scale work in a game like this would likely be far too hard to deal with. Just like CoH I expect the smallest we'll be allowed to be in CoT will be around 2-3 feet tall.

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TTheDDoctor wrote:
TTheDDoctor wrote:

Here's a hypothetical idea for you- what if larger toons had more HP? Larger targets do tend to require more force acting upon them to neutralize them. A .44 magnum round may be able to punch clean through body armor, but tank armor is a whole 'nuther story...

Here's another classic example of trying to apply "real world" physics to a comic book world. Apples and Oranges.

Sure at first glance you might expect that a larger body could take more punishment than a tiny one. But superpowers change that "rule of thumb" completely. There's absolutely nothing that would/should prevent a Tinkerbell sized character from being the toughest Tank in the universe or likewise nothing that ought to prevent a Hulk sized character from being killable by a sleepy kitten. Size should account for NOTHING in terms of how tough a comic book based character should or could be.

Besides if this game actually let you have something like more HPs for being bigger then what would stop everyone from maxing out their size regardless of any other character concept consideration? Again body shape/size should NEVER provide any hardwired advantage like that - otherwise character diversity would be instantly reduced to whatever min/max combo works best.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

City of Ghosts
I was tried in City of Heroes. Didn't work out that well.

Got some deats? :p

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Besides if this game actually let you have something like more HPs for being bigger then what would stop everyone from maxing out their size regardless of any other character concept consideration?

Because then you'd be a larger target, therefore conferring the aforementioned penalty to avoiding attacks. You can take more damage, but you take more hits.

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TTheDDoctor wrote:
TTheDDoctor wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Besides if this game actually let you have something like more HPs for being bigger then what would stop everyone from maxing out their size regardless of any other character concept consideration?
Because then you'd be a larger target, therefore conferring the aforementioned penalty to avoiding attacks. You can take more damage, but you take more hits.

But again we already know we're going to have a tab-based targeting system in CoT. This isn't going to be like a FPS where the player's skill to "aim" at specific pixels on the screen will make any difference.

The only thing letting "big" sized characters have more HPs would do in CoT is let "big" sized characters have more HPs. There would be no "downsides" to counter-balance that advantage. With no disadvantages virtually everyone would make maxed sized characters regardless of character concept.

One more time a game like CoT should never offer ANY kind of advantages or disadvantages based on character size/appearance. If it did people would invariably game the system and character diversity would suffer. It's exactly the same reason why no costume item should ever confer a combat bonus in this game because suddenly everyone's "costume" would become identical (to gain the best min/maxed stats). In the extreme case I could see where a player could make one costume with a super tiny size and another with a super big size and switch between those two whenever the tactical situation calls for it. Every player would in effect gain "size altering" powers without actual "powers" to account for that.

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It would be the gamer's holy

It would be the gamer's holy grail if we could make size matter.

Bigger targets: easier to hit but with more HP. If it were just those two parameters, it would not be too difficult to balance. Even in a tab targeting game, hit chance is a percentage chance. Multiply that percentage chance by the HP and you get the conversion ratio of HP to hit chance. Balanced. I would recommend we give characters different mental and physical stats in this case, since it is likely the game will include mental abilities that cause damage. Area of Effect (AoE) attacks would definitely favor characters with more hitpoints unless we also include some sort of AoE avoidance parameter that gives a benefit to smaller characters. One way would be to scale AoE to target size so that it is proportionate to the ratio of total hitpoints. This actually makes sense since the larger target has more surface area to be hit by an AoE attack. So again: balanced.

But then there are other factors to consider, such as box size, reach distance and speed. Are bigger characters inherently faster with their naturally larger strides (all other things being equal, they should be). But can larger characters change directions (dodge) as fast as smaller characters? (all other things being equal they should not). And are larger characters stronger? (all other things being equal, they are). Once you start taking these things into account, the balance becomes more troublesome. Is it doable? Maybe. If this were a fantasy rpg where we attacked each other with our human strength using swords, it would make a huge impact. But how appropriate is all this to a superhero game where your average character is superstrong, super resilient, and super jiggly? (had to throw that in there to see if you are paying attention)

Once you take super strength into account, is size even a factor any more? (the minimal advantage in strength of a large human versus a small human is miniscule when compared to two superhumanly strong people. In math terms, someone 1.5 times stronger than a normal human is three times stronger than someone who is half as strong as a normal human. But if both people had 100xhuman superstrength, the larger one would be 100.5 and the smaller would be 99.5 for a negligible difference of only 1%. Definitely not worth including in my opinion.

In other words, hit points for target size may be the only attribute worth modeling. A huge lumbering Bison of a character should be able to say he's stronger and more survivable than the rest, but then would that prevent someone from making a diminutive character who is made out of adamantium saying she is the toughest? How do the developers cater to both players' creativity unless they just make it so that size does not matter? (This was intended as a rhetorical question since I'm sure we could put in an infinite number of possibilities at character creation that could effect strength, reach, speed, survivability, etc., so that people could see real in-game effects of those choices. I'm thinking it is unlikely those infinite possibilities are put into the game.)

Furthermore, if these balance issues were the only balance issues to worry about, I'm sure someone would have done this already. But when you think about powerset balance issues, there is enough right there without having to worry about how size affects them.

If there is anyone out there making a fantasy or hand to hand combat game, I would give my first child to you if you could make size matter; but in this game, I see more reasons for it not to matter.


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

It would be the gamer's holy grail if we could make size matter.

[...]

If there is anyone out there making a fantasy or hand to hand combat game, I would give my first child to you if you could make size matter; but in this game, I see more reasons for it not to matter.

It totally matters what KIND of game you're talking about.

It would make sense for body size to matter if the game in question was based on the manual dexterity of the player and targeting was a function of putting a pointer/reticle on the exact pixel you needed for the maximum damage. But for games like CoH and CoT body size/shape should NEVER matter. Powers alone should always dictate whether characters are harder or easier to hit. This is (or at least should be) a fundamental rule of thumb for any superhero game. There should be nothing to prevent a Tinkerbell sized character from being as invulnerable as Superman or a guy that looks like the Hulk from suffering from Osteogenesis imperfecta.

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Yeah, I'm firmly on no HP

Yeah, I'm firmly on no HP-affecting size.

The awesome thing about CoH was INVISIBLE LOOT! Your looks had zero affect on your stats. And to allow infinite customization, we should stick to invisible loot/stats..

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Yes on the invisible limbs

Yes on the invisible limbs

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A translucent costume

A translucent costume component needs to mesh with other costume components. Those other components are probably not built to interface with nothingness so they won't always seal the resulting "holes". In any case, the interface could be "purpleness" (such as the image above of Purple-On-The-Inside-Guy), or flesh and the end-of-a-bone, or transition to other translucent body parts.... a translucent (or invisible) costume component could offer different interface options built into it. Very cool, but not trivial.

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His name is Phantom Limb!

His name is Phantom Limb!

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I mean, transparent or

I mean, transparent or invisible bodies or body parts are definitely a part of Superhero genre. So, unless there is a coding/mechanical reason that the are not worth the effort, in a Superhero MMO, they make sense.

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I think it's important to

I think it's important to note, that something like this will have gameplay implications such as PVP/PVE or even simply selecting the said character without [Tab]. Also, the types of cosmetic errors it will come with would need to be addressed thoroughly so we all can enjoy it. (such as seeing through the inside of the end meshes because of reversed normals for example, perhaps this can be solved with a "Cap" solution, but again, if you want to make the adjacent meshes transparent as well, then you'd have floating caps/disks everywhere without further coding help)

An idea could be having a Transparent piece limit per costume slot (we're not talking glass/ghostlike materials but straight up transparent) It is very possible for it to be implemented, but the matter is doing it right in terms of the overall picture.

*personally would love to have a floating head character, messing people's days up!*

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Yeah, my OP, I think was on

Yeah, my OP, I think was on the right track. Uniform translucency isn't too hard. But removing limbs can be messy, since you have to occupy the hole leftover.

Maybe there's be specific legless costume sets: tattered robes instead of feet, a rocket at the waist. These are more limb replacements than removing limbs, and would be a good compromise.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Maybe there's be specific legless costume sets: tattered robes instead of feet, a rocket at the waist. These are more limb replacements than removing limbs, and would be a good compromise.

The problem with those, of course, is that custom animations would have to be made to replace any ones that require legs - like kicks for instance. They're not impossible, but it would take a bit more work to pull off correctly.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

desviper wrote:
Maybe there's be specific legless costume sets: tattered robes instead of feet, a rocket at the waist. These are more limb replacements than removing limbs, and would be a good compromise.
The problem with those, of course, is that custom animations would have to be made to replace any ones that require legs - like kicks for instance. They're not impossible, but it would take a bit more work to pull off correctly.

The powers customization system will already incorporate much of that, though, so it may well be entirely within the realms of the existing framework (choosing a power's emanation point, animation, FX, etc).

You'd just* need to set up a system to flag limb replacement costumes and animations that require use of that limb as being non-compatible.

*Standard code rant applies

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

desviper wrote:
Maybe there's be specific legless costume sets: tattered robes instead of feet, a rocket at the waist. These are more limb replacements than removing limbs, and would be a good compromise.
The problem with those, of course, is that custom animations would have to be made to replace any ones that require legs - like kicks for instance. They're not impossible, but it would take a bit more work to pull off correctly.

And thus it would fall into the same "trap" as non-humanoid bodies in general, permanent increase to the animations work for relevant ones by having to put out one more version of the same animation.

From what I have read (not only here) that is the main contributor to why the cost-benefit analysis of having non-humanoid bodies as player characters in games hardly ever pans out. Hopefully in the future this is a place where AI's can help us a lot.

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cloganart wrote:
cloganart wrote:

I think it's important to note, that something like this will have gameplay implications such as PVP/PVE or even simply selecting the said character without [Tab]. Also, the types of cosmetic errors it will come with would need to be addressed thoroughly so we all can enjoy it. (such as seeing through the inside of the end meshes because of reversed normals for example, perhaps this can be solved with a "Cap" solution, but again, if you want to make the adjacent meshes transparent as well, then you'd have floating caps/disks everywhere without further coding help)
An idea could be having a Transparent piece limit per costume slot (we're not talking glass/ghostlike materials but straight up transparent) It is very possible for it to be implemented, but the matter is doing it right in terms of the overall picture.
*personally would love to have a floating head character, messing people's days up!*

anybody else have images of the baby head from Phineas and Ferb going through their head now, too? or is it just me?

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cloganart wrote:
cloganart wrote:

I think it's important to note, that something like this will have gameplay implications such as PVP/PVE or even simply selecting the said character without [Tab]. Also, the types of cosmetic errors it will come with would need to be addressed thoroughly so we all can enjoy it. (such as seeing through the inside of the end meshes because of reversed normals for example, perhaps this can be solved with a "Cap" solution, but again, if you want to make the adjacent meshes transparent as well, then you'd have floating caps/disks everywhere without further coding help)
An idea could be having a Transparent piece limit per costume slot (we're not talking glass/ghostlike materials but straight up transparent) It is very possible for it to be implemented, but the matter is doing it right in terms of the overall picture.
*personally would love to have a floating head character, messing people's days up!*

On the matter of costume pieces having "caps" to prevent you seeing through the insides of them, what about the caps being on the NON-transparent costume parts, that way when paired with a transparent part, you can't see in, when paired with another nontransparent part they're irrelevant, and with two transparent parts paired together, there's no cap to display?

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

cloganart wrote:
I think it's important to note, that something like this will have gameplay implications such as PVP/PVE or even simply selecting the said character without [Tab]. Also, the types of cosmetic errors it will come with would need to be addressed thoroughly so we all can enjoy it. (such as seeing through the inside of the end meshes because of reversed normals for example, perhaps this can be solved with a "Cap" solution, but again, if you want to make the adjacent meshes transparent as well, then you'd have floating caps/disks everywhere without further coding help)
An idea could be having a Transparent piece limit per costume slot (we're not talking glass/ghostlike materials but straight up transparent) It is very possible for it to be implemented, but the matter is doing it right in terms of the overall picture.
*personally would love to have a floating head character, messing people's days up!*
On the matter of costume pieces having "caps" to prevent you seeing through the insides of them, what about the caps being on the NON-transparent costume parts, that way when paired with a transparent part, you can't see in, when paired with another nontransparent part they're irrelevant, and with two transparent parts paired together, there's no cap to display?

The only reason for the cap to be there would be so that we would not see the reversed normals inside (which would cause the player to see through the backface when the front is covered) A quick solution for this would be to make the character materials double sided, but this would start to cause a lot of pain on the machinery because now we would have to calculate double the shader instructions for each face.

Not really fun from a technical standpoint. So I will have to drop a "we are planning on it, but not right now" on this.

Art Director

Charles Logan
www.cloganart.com

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Good to hear :)

Good to hear :)

Back on the rocket waist. In CoH, the ghosts of the Circle of Thorns kept their punch animations, having no feet. If have a kick attack, which I don't think is a thing given Aestetic decoupling, and the default is a side kick. One could change it to any other animation that makes sense with their body type...or #DealWithIt

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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