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On the Topic of Basic Attacks

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Umbral
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On the Topic of Basic Attacks

Before I start into everything, I'd like to define what exactly I mean by "basic attack", by which I'm referring to the "weakest" attack that a player has that they can use when they have nothing else to do. In CoX, this was Brawl. In many other games, it's your auto-attack. In others, it's simply an attack that does mediocre damage, costs nothing, and has no recharge so that it is *always* available as the bare minimum that you can do.

Now that I've defined it, I'd like to know what the devs plan for basic attack(s) for CoT.

Personally, I never liked the Brawl solution because it didn't really jive with the theme of a vast majority of characters, especially those that already had what amounted to augmented punches. I've never really liked the auto-attack solution either because it doesn't involve the *player* actually doing anything; their character just does it automatically, which isn't really my definition of fun.

The solution I've always found to be best is that the first attack that the player gets (e.g. the first power on their offensive powerset) acts as their basic attack. In effect, the first attack in all offensive powersets (in CoH terms, blaster/scrapper/controller primaries and tanker/defender secondaries) is free, without recharge, and has the same base effects before being modified by AT and theme (and animation time, for damage). In effect, the first attack become the "base" from which all other powers are modified (e.g. higher damage means it now has a recharge time and resource cost; even higher damage means it has a higher recharge time and higher resource cost).

This allows for players to *always* have some attack that they can use (so you're never just stuck there doing nothing while waiting for your resources to recharge; I'm imagining fighting those damned Maltas while writing this) while also providing a baseline of performance for all attributes. For example, using the classic Brawl Index concept (with the exception that we now assume that BI is modified for animation time, such that, for 2 attacks with the same BI, the longer animation deals more damage), when creating a set with a -accuracy secondary effect, the first power would have a BI of 1, no recharge time, no resource cost, and apply a 5% reduction in accuracy for 5 seconds. The second power, designed to be a stronger hit, would have a BI of 1.5, a 5 second recharge time, cost 10 resource points, and apply a 5% reduction in accuracy for 5 seconds. A third power, designed to be more of a support power, would have a BI of 1, a 10 second recharge time, cost 15 resource points, and apply a 15% reduction in accuracy for 15 seconds. A fourth power, designed to be a straight up raw damage power, would have a BI of 2, a 7.5 second recharge time, cost 15 resource points, but not apply a reduction in accuracy.

It does create some problems insofar as it's necessary for the dev team to make some arbitrary choices concerning where exactly the starting points are and how much deviations from them cost, but arbitrary choices are something of a requirement when designing a system from scratch and, as I see it, the benefit that a basic attack provides make up for the increase in design difficulty (though once you've arrived at the appropriate ratios, things fall in to place quite easily).

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I still like the idea of

I still like the idea of there being some kind of fundamental "basic attack" that's completely separate from any other powerset or pool the character is built with. But I do agree with the idea that everyone being stuck with a single universal choice for this attack (in CoH's case the Brawl power) was not really the best alternative either.

My suggestion for this (which was something I actually used to talk about on the old CoH forum from time to time) is that instead of there just being one single Brawl attack power that everyone defaults to there ought to be a pool of powers that you can choose from that are all functionally equivalent to Brawl. The net effect is that everyone still has one basic fundamental attack power but you get to choose what you want that power to look like to better fit your character concept.

Let's say that in addition to the classic Brawl we could also choose: A) a small knife power, B) a small backup gun with a very short range, C) a magical 'zap' power that would zap a target with just a touch, D) a hand-held taser-like device that would emit an electric shock, E) a small baton you could swing at people with, and so on. These are just a few examples - ideally there would be maybe a dozen or more choices here. The key amongst all these powers would be that in terms of damage output, recharge, etc. they should all be exactly identical to Brawl. In essence this would allow you to "customize" your version of the Brawl power to fit with the rest of the powers you use.

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Lothic said what I was busy

Lothic said what I was busy typing up a lot better than I could. I would probably take the Brawl Equivalent for most characters save Melee, who'd get a thematic one, because it's always silly to imagine a Super that can't punch someone in the face.

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Lothic
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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

Lothic said what I was busy typing up a lot better than I could. I would probably take the Brawl Equivalent for most characters save Melee, who'd get a thematic one, because it's always silly to imagine a Super that can't punch someone in the face.

Exactly... even if I'm playing some kind of fancy mind controller who always Hovers overhead I might still want to think that character could throw a pathetic punch as a last ditch attack.

On the other hand I've played characters that were so completely tech/gadget oriented that the idea of them even throwing a simple punch would be silly. I always wanted them to have some kind of minor Taser device that they would use instead of "barbaric fisticuffs".

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I always viewed brawl as the

I always viewed brawl as the one thing anyone can do....throw a punch. If it didn't fit your characters concept you quickly stopped using it.

I am thinking that CoT will most likely offer aesthetic choices for you basic brawl like power (if there even is one). So if the core of your desire is for options in brawl then think this is already going to happen.

I am not in favor of a 'cost free' power personally....brawl cost end and had a recharge after all. I would much rather see the low level powers work similar to the way the low level powers did for blasters in CoH....as in they could be used even while mezzed, but exhausted is exhausted. When you remove things like recharge and end cost then all you have done is make the power that much more dps friendly.

There are also very important reasons to include end cost and recharge in 'first powers'.... its a way to teach the player what to expect throughout the games progression.... powers not always be available and end running out...or to put it another way...power resource management. This being constantly re-enforced by the powers you use the most is a good thing.

As for balancing powers based on the starting power...I would think that sets are not balanced based on itself but balanced against the game overall. What I mean is there is more to consider when defining a power than just what the starting power is.

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Quote:
Quote:

On the other hand I've played characters that were so completely tech/gadget oriented that the idea of them even throwing a simple punch would be silly. I always wanted them to have some kind of minor Taser device that they would use instead of "barbaric fisticuffs"..

Origin powers?

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Exactly... even if I'm playing some kind of fancy mind controller who always Hovers overhead I might still want to think that character could throw a pathetic punch as a last ditch attack.

My problem with this logic has always been that it's not as if a mind control character would necessarily have any particular capacity for fisticuffs sufficient to cause damage but they've got a definite knack for getting into their opponent's head. In a comic book, the punch thrown by a mind controller would be a (ineffective) dramatic act to demonstrate that they can't do anything else because, if they were still capable of doing anything, they'd be trying to mind-screw their opponent.

It makes more sense (to me) for that character to simply be capable of using their basic mind control stuff even when they're tired and can't access any of their deeper powers than for them to do something completely different. It also makes for a more compelling game, as I see it, for a fire blaster to always be able to blast fire, even if it's their weakest fire blast, rather than only being able to blast fire when they've got enough endurance.

The knife/taser/etc thing has always felt more like a temp power than a basic attack to me for much the same reason (unless my character's primary power is knives/tasers etc.).

It could also be explained as there being a "basic attack" and a "minimum attack". A minimum attack is the absolute bare minimum act of defiance that can be performed (e.g. the desperate attack that you use when you've got nothing else) whereas the basic attack is the fundamental act that you rely upon and which everything else your character does is built upon.

In Pokemon terms, the basic attack would be something like Tackle or Scratch (or Ember or Bubble or Thundershock or...) whereas the minimum attack is Struggle. If it weren't for the the ludicrous nature of the PP system, Struggle would makes no sense because, if you're able to move enough to cause damage, you should be able to at least Tackle or Scratch the target outright, even if you can't use something stronger.

Something that I forgot to mention earlier as an additional benefit of this is that players aren't forced into having cost neutral resource schemas in order to keep on fighting as a super powered person. One of the big reasons that the Fitness set was basically required was so that players would always have the resources to use their primary powers. if the weakest of their primary powers was free, Fitness (or it's equivalent) wouldn't be required and would allow people to free up space to do other stuff with their builds.

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23. "I will keep a special

23. "I will keep a special cache of low-tech weapons and train my troops in their use. That way -- even if the heroes manage to neutralize my power generator and/or render the standard-issue energy weapons useless -- my troops will not be overrun by a handful of savages armed with spears and rocks."

That is my main logic behind every hero and villain character having a low ordinance attack like "Punch to the Face". Because in a situation where your powers are completely nullified and useless, what can you do?

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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Lothic
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Umbral wrote:
Umbral wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Exactly... even if I'm playing some kind of fancy mind controller who always Hovers overhead I might still want to think that character could throw a pathetic punch as a last ditch attack.

My problem with this logic has always been that it's not as if a mind control character would necessarily have any particular capacity for fisticuffs sufficient to cause damage but they've got a definite knack for getting into their opponent's head. In a comic book, the punch thrown by a mind controller would be a (ineffective) dramatic act to demonstrate that they can't do anything else because, if they were still capable of doing anything, they'd be trying to mind-screw their opponent.
It makes more sense (to me) for that character to simply be capable of using their basic mind control stuff even when they're tired and can't access any of their deeper powers than for them to do something completely different. It also makes for a more compelling game, as I see it, for a fire blaster to always be able to blast fire, even if it's their weakest fire blast, rather than only being able to blast fire when they've got enough endurance.
The knife/taser/etc thing has always felt more like a temp power than a basic attack to me for much the same reason (unless my character's primary power is knives/tasers etc.).

The point is to not FORCE players into using powers they OUGHT to use but to be able to allow them to use the powers that they WANT to use for whatever reason.

For instance you might decide your mind controller would never be caught dead ever trying to swing a punch so you'd use the "brawl equivalent" that'd be more like a short ranged minor mind zap power. On the other hand I might decide my mind controller has some actual melee abilities (I might even end up giving him a melee oriented tertiary power pool) so the idea that he might be able to throw a minor punch isn't so far fetched.

Get the idea? Character concepts should always be allowed to mix-n-match any kinds of combos like this.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

There are also very important reasons to include end cost and recharge in 'first powers'.... its a way to teach the player what to expect throughout the games progression.... powers not always be available and end running out...or to put it another way...power resource management. This being constantly re-enforced by the powers you use the most is a good thing.

From what I recall about the power system (this may be wrong), but they're not going to be giving you just a single power from your power set at one time. You get a limited suite of powers at one time that you then augment as you go. You would still have to learn resource management in order to use any of your stronger powers. The difference is that, rather than having the penalty for poor resource management be "I can't use anything", the penalty becomes "I can only use my weakest power". Players should always be able to do *something*; standing there waiting for your endurance to recover is boring. Proper resource management should give you something extra, not be something that's absolutely required for enjoyable play.

Also, it should be mentioned, that hard enforced requirements for resource management aren't particularly newbie/casual friendly. I had a few casual friends that, when they first started playing, couldn't manage to get their heads around resource/recharge management and ended up sitting there doing nothing while waiting for endurance to come back and resources to recharge (and then wondering why they were punching someone rather than just lighting them on fire).

Quote:

As for balancing powers based on the starting power...I would think that sets are not balanced based on itself but balanced against the game overall. What I mean is there is more to consider when defining a power than just what the starting power is.

A set should be balanced against both itself and the game as a whole. Balancing against itself is making sure that every power has value and a purpose so that there is a reason to use every power. An example of this *not* being done was early MA/* Scrapping: Eagle's Claw and Crane Kick was a damage power that had an animation time so long that it ended up doing less damage in the same period of time as you'd do with your weaker attacks. There was no reason to use EC and CK other than to see their admittedly nice animations. Balancing against the game is simply ensuring that the set, when played proficiently, can defeat content it's supposed to be able to defeat while solo, has a role to play within a group, and isn't overshadowed by any other set.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Get the idea? Character concepts should always be allow to take any kinds of combos like this.

Isn't that the point of tertiary powersets though?

If you want a mind controller that can throw a punch, you invest in the Fighting tertiary pool. If you don't, you don't.

Creating a massive list of brawl options to cover a vast array of possible character concepts is simply a *lot* more work than the much simpler set up of having the first attack be your basic attack and having tertiary powers fill out the character concept.

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But Eagle's Claw and Crane

But Eagle's Claw and Crane Kicked looked really cool. So who cares if they were less effective?

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Quote:
On the other hand I've played characters that were so completely tech/gadget oriented that the idea of them even throwing a simple punch would be silly. I always wanted them to have some kind of minor Taser device that they would use instead of "barbaric fisticuffs"..
Origin powers?

Nope because the idea of "origin powers" are simply too restrictive in this case.

For instance maybe my tech/gadget guy I just mentioned had a father who was some kind of magic-user guy so even though I rely mostly on tech and gadgets for my main attacks I can also use a minor magical zap (my Brawl-equivalent choice) as a last resort.

If this kind of thing were locked into an "origin system" I might not be able to choose something like that. The beauty of keeping the Brawl-equivalent power pool "origin-neutral" is that I could choose a power that matches my origin or DOESN'T match it as I choose.

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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

That is my main logic behind every hero and villain character having a low ordinance attack like "Punch to the Face". Because in a situation where your powers are completely nullified and useless, what can you do?

Except that we're playing a game, not dealing with real life. A game that puts you into a situation where your powers are completely nullified and useless is a poorly designed game, which is one of the reasons why I *really* hated how CoX handled psychic damage against players. */Invuln/* was basically worthless against it because it had absolutely no defense or resistance to it. It's fine to create weaknesses, but any *game* system that renders a player's choice completely and totally pointless is either sadistic or poorly designed.

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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

But Eagle's Claw and Crane Kicked looked really cool. So who cares if they were less effective?

Anyone who cared about the numbers in the slightest. Which is why the devs went and sped up the animations *significantly* in order to make those 2 powers viable choices.

Just because you care more about aesthetics than effectiveness doesn't mean it shouldn't be a concern for the developers, especially since it's not like the two elements are mutually exclusive.

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Umbral wrote:
Umbral wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Get the idea? Character concepts should always be allow to take any kinds of combos like this.

Isn't that the point of tertiary powersets though?
If you want a mind controller that can throw a punch, you invest in the Fighting tertiary pool. If you don't, you don't.
Creating a massive list of brawl options to cover a vast array of possible character concepts is simply a *lot* more work than the much simpler set up of having the first attack be your basic attack and having tertiary powers fill out the character concept.

What if I want that mind controller with the melee tertiary to ALSO have a basic Brawl power? What if I want a minor knife power instead just as weird character quirk? I couldn't do either under your system.

I already mentioned that the list of Brawl equivalent powers would not need to be "massive" by any means. A dozen or so choices would be more than sufficient. Frankly your idea of readjusting ALL the powersets for the base attack to become a new Brawl type power seems far more complicated/convoluted than what I'm talking about. Sorry... but it does.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I already mentioned that the list of Brawl equivalent powers would not need to be "massive" by any means. A dozen or so choices would be more than sufficient. Frankly your idea of readjusting ALL the powersets for the base attack to become a new Brawl type power seems far more complicated/convoluted than what I'm talking about. Sorry... but it does.

A dozen choices is actually a pretty substantial number considering how little use the power would end up seeing. It's one of the reasons why Brawl options weren't really introduced: it just wasn't that much of a payoff.

Also, it's not changing all the powersets such that the first attack becomes the new Brawl type power. It's changing the design paradigm such that you design around differences from the base power, which the devs should already be doing. The only difference is that the first attack gets codified as the central point from which deviation is measured rather than an abstract power that doesn't exist (or something like Brawl that simply doesn't get used).

It begs the question as to why you even need to have a power like Brawl in CoX if you can instead design a system where a player is never forced into a situation where they would need to use it. The only reason that CoX had Brawl was because everything had a recharge time and endurance cost and they wanted to give the players something to use when they had nothing else. Why even include that possibility if you don't have to?

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Umbral wrote:
Umbral wrote:

Lord Nightmare wrote:
That is my main logic behind every hero and villain character having a low ordinance attack like "Punch to the Face". Because in a situation where your powers are completely nullified and useless, what can you do?

Except that we're playing a game, not dealing with real life. A game that puts you into a situation where your powers are completely nullified and useless is a poorly designed game, which is one of the reasons why I *really* hated how CoX handled psychic damage against players. */Invuln/* was basically worthless against it because it had absolutely no defense or resistance to it. It's fine to create weaknesses, but any *game* system that renders a player's choice completely and totally pointless is either sadistic or poorly designed.

WoW until Cataclysm had a system where enemies were either highly resistant or immune to certain damage types, but weak to others. A Fire mage was going to be utterly useless in Molten Core and Onyxia's Lair, but that changed once AQ, ZG and Naxxramas were released. The exact opposite was true for Frost Mages. The reason why this was done was because it made sense. Why would a fireball work against a giant elemental made of fire?

Dungeons and Dragons, many other PnP games, and RPGs have enemy resistances that can flat out turn a character useless if they can't cast or use abilities outside of those resistances. The Shin Megami Tensei games are beyond infamous for doing this. The lesson is that not everyone should be able to be useful in every situation because that gives each character their own flavor and uniqueness. Whereas an Invuln tank would be in suckville against a Psychic character, I, an Energy/Dark Corrupter, would be the saving grace and give the entire party Psionic resistance. That tank now has help from an outside force that he wouldn't have had otherwise, adding to my uniqueness and desire in any future encounters with Psionics.

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I'm fine with everyone having

I'm fine with everyone having the equivalent of Brawl, and maybe having one or two options as to how it looks when you use it. Aesthetic decoupling, etc.

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All I can say is there will

All I can say is there will be basic attack options available thematic with the attack sets. These attack options exist primarily for the early game as not all combinations of primary / secondary choices will lead to having something to do, helps avoid the sense of waiting for early set-based attacks to recharge, and provide a basic damage output over time for the early level combat. Even for some of the sets that are less "active" we have to plan around the possibility that players may take more of the "less action"-required-for-use-powers (and have less attacks as a result) for quite a number of levels, even after Tertiary picks open up. Having the basic attack options helps provide the sense that at least there is always something to do in combat, even if it may not be to the "smart player" be the most optimal choices to make. Such a player may be able to build a character in which they are able to ignore their basic attack options much earlier than the player who didn't optimize their character in such a manner. We have to provide room for both.

BI or brawl index is a pure measurement from which to base continued increase in health damage output performance, It didn't match with DPS (damage per second) over time, and the more accurate measurement of DPA (damage per activation) from which attack chains are based off when utilizing an individual attack cool down combat system. Not to mention mes with something we've set up for measuring performance ouput of various powers

Could we make it so that power sets have a starting power that replaced these basic attack options? The truth is no. First, it doesn't cover what we aim to provide with the basic attack options and also doing our best that even the early tier powers in the sets are of use throughout various levels of play (insert stuff I can't talk about here). All this would do is move the measurment of performance up the power tiers, change how we've set up our entire power design system, change how we've set up our power set design framework.


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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

WoW until Cataclysm had a system where enemies were either highly resistant or immune to certain damage types, but weak to others.

Actually, it was removed in Wrath, not Cataclysm. And it was removed for a reason: it prevented certain specs from being effective in given content. Good game design is inclusive, not exclusive.

Someone shouldn't be presented with an unscalable wall just because they want to play an Invuln in and the mission is all Psy damage. It's the same reason why the CoX devs created the Elite Boss rank: certain missions spawned an AV and it was impossible to solo an AV for 95% of builds out there (hell, it was impossible to defeat an AV without a /Rad for the -Regen for a lot of people/groups).

There's a vast difference between a class having a weakness and a crippling weakness. Crippling weaknesses that *force* someone to get outside assistance or stop playing a given character should be avoided at all costs. A weakness that just makes you less effective (e.g. Invuln v. ranged non-bashing/lethal targets; Invuln had lower resists against everything but bashing/lethal and required enemies to be in melee for it's aura defense buff) is perfectly fine but you still need to be effective in the first place.

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Umbral wrote:
Umbral wrote:

Lord Nightmare wrote:
WoW until Cataclysm had a system where enemies were either highly resistant or immune to certain damage types, but weak to others.

Actually, it was removed in Wrath, not Cataclysm. And it was removed for a reason: it prevented certain specs from being effective in given content. Good game design is inclusive, not exclusive.
Someone shouldn't be presented with an unscalable wall just because they want to play an Invuln in and the mission is all Psy damage. It's the same reason why the CoX devs created the Elite Boss rank: certain missions spawned an AV and it was impossible to solo an AV for 95% of builds out there (hell, it was impossible to defeat an AV without a /Rad for the -Regen for a lot of people/groups).
There's a vast difference between a class having a weakness and a crippling weakness. Crippling weaknesses that *force* someone to get outside assistance or stop playing a given character should be avoided at all costs. A weakness that just makes you less effective (e.g. Invuln v. ranged non-bashing/lethal targets; Invuln had lower resists against everything but bashing/lethal and required enemies to be in melee for it's aura defense buff) is perfectly fine but you still need to be effective in the first place.

What it sounds like is that you want to be able to solo most everything and not have to deal with the idea that something can utterly decimate you because of an intentional flaw in design.

Basically, this conversation is easily summed as follows.

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Quote:
Quote:

Nope because the idea of "origin powers" are simply too restrictive in this case..

The case you described originally would have been solved with the use of the origin power.....

this new case...

Quote:

For instance maybe my tech/gadget guy I just mentioned had a father who was some kind of magic-user guy so even though I rely mostly on tech and gadgets for my main attacks I can also use a minor magical zap (my Brawl-equivalent choice) as a last resort..

Could have been solved in the same way...either you use the tech origin power (tazer) and call it magic or you take magic (cantrip I think?) and call the enhancements tech.....

What I am getting at is not every single character concept is required to be included in the game. Sometimes you need to take the tools available and work around them. That said...yes a small amount of cosmetic options provides more versatility....but you are not going to have an in game system that supports your decision to be an alien mutant scientist mystic. Its just as much the players responsibility to fit their character concept into the game as it is the game to provide the options to make it fit.

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From what I recall about the power system (this may be wrong), but they're not going to be giving you just a single power from your power set at one time. You get a limited suite of powers at one time that you then augment as you go..

Is it you get multiple powers or you get to choose from multiple powers?

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Also, it should be mentioned, that hard enforced requirements for resource management aren't particularly newbie/casual friendly. I had a few casual friends that, when they first started playing, couldn't manage to get their heads around resource/recharge management and ended up sitting there doing nothing while waiting for endurance to come back and resources to recharge (and then wondering why they were punching someone rather than just lighting them on fire)..

So, you had friends who could not understand that each use of a power draws on a slowly recharging endurance bar? And you think this level of non-comprehension is common among players?

This is an almost universal concept in progressive power growth games.....when you start you can't do much...as you gain levels you can do more.

The fact that in CoH the end bar does not increase as you level... you always have the same resource level to draw on for power use... means that constant re-enforcement of resource management is important. This assumes that CoT will follow the same concept of a static power use resource pool. Starting players with a power that not only breaks this general convention but remains the most used power in the arsenal is a bad idea.

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A set should be balanced against both itself and the game as a whole..

So just as I said...balanced against the game overall...meaning more to consider than just the starting power as you original stated.

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An example of this *not* being done was early MA/* Scrapping: Eagle's Claw and Crane Kick was a damage power that had an animation time so long that it ended up doing less damage in the same period of time as you'd do with your weaker attacks..

It wasn't a poorly designed power because it did not balance itself against earlier powers...but because animation time was not considered properly. There were a few powers like that in CoH.... and were looked at later.

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Balancing against the game is simply ensuring that the set, when played proficiently, can defeat content it's supposed to be able to defeat while solo, has a role to play within a group, and isn't overshadowed by any other set..

No....its not that simple.

There is synergy with other sets, when the power becomes available, how slotting affects it, buffs and debuffs, class abilities, foe resistance, ect ect ect

Oversimplifying the ideas of balance and power design to support the idea of a 'base power' is just not a good idea IMO.

Cinnder
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I like everything Tannim said

I like everything Tannim said here, but especially:

Tannim222 wrote:

...doing our best that even the early tier powers in the sets are of use throughout various levels of play...

That's one of the things I liked about CoX: the low level powers were useful even at level cap.

As long as we don't end up with an always-on pew-pew-pew attack like in CO (which I find excruciatingly boring) I'll be happy.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Empyrean
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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I like everything Tannim said here, but especially:
Tannim222 wrote:
...doing our best that even the early tier powers in the sets are of use throughout various levels of play...

That's one of the things I liked about CoX: the low level powers were useful even at level cap.
As long as we don't end up with an always-on pew-pew-pew attack like in CO (which I find excruciatingly boring) I'll be happy.

Agreed, and I don't think we have to worry. MWM seems to be designing CoT that in mind.

While there WILL be lots of disparagement over it being an "outdated system", the individual power cooldown made/allowed you to look at all of your powers as a toolset to use strategically and tactically--and that was awesome and I really miss it.

It's part of what made CoH action fun without twitch. The combination of strategic setup and real-time tactical choices.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Izzy
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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Cinnder wrote:
I like everything Tannim said here, but especially:
Tannim222 wrote:
...doing our best that even the early tier powers in the sets are of use throughout various levels of play...

That's one of the things I liked about CoX: the low level powers were useful even at level cap.
As long as we don't end up with an always-on pew-pew-pew attack like in CO (which I find excruciatingly boring) I'll be happy.

Agreed, and I don't think we have to worry. MWM seems to be designing CoT that in mind.
While there WILL be lots of disparagement over it being an "outdated system", the individual power cooldown made/allowed you to look at all of your powers as a toolset to use strategically and tactically--and that was awesome and I really miss it.
It's part of what made CoH action fun without twitch. The combination of strategic setup and real-time tactical choices.

I liked how in CoH/V Tanker types with Super Strength (as well as other Powersets) Jab had -Res Debuff.
When I was playing my Tank higher levels, I didnt use Jab all the time. I mostly used the more damaging or Mitigating attacks.
But as you faced AV's and higher HP foes, Jab came in handy again... as it had -Res Debuff.

So even the lowest power never stopped being useful, even at the higher levels. I really liked that. ;D