One thing CoH/COV had, which never sat well with me, was the number of heroes/villains there were in one city. And granted there was never a way of dealing with this issue with it being a MMO, but new technology is around now that might be worth considering to make it have the feel you are part of the only super team in the city or one of a couple of heros in the city.
There is a game in production called Shroud of the Avatar, that is using a system where you control how many people you see, I believe the settings are solo, friends/guild, and whole MMO. In this system you all are in the same world, but are on different phases, unless option 2 or 3 is selected. This could be an ideal solution to the overcrowding in a city, they are there you just never see them, would make it fell like you are the solo force in the city.
Hmmm, though it might be true that this feature would help immersion for some players, what makes it interesting for me is... would it reduce lag? I'm wondering if some players would appreciate this feature since it would reduce the data/memory load on their machines.
Very interesting point GH, I will bring this up with the tech people.
______
[color=#00FFBF][i][b]You wear a mask to hide who you are, I wear a mask to show who I am.[/b][/i][/color]
[color=#ff0000]Staff Writer, Composition Team[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Well, the old game WAS called "City of Heroes", but it is still a good point. Definitely something to be looked into.
______________
IANAL, IMHO, WYSIWYG, YMMV, IIRC, AFAIK, ETC
[color=#ff0000]Composition Assistant Director, Composition Team[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Problem with that is, one of the undisputed best features of CoH was its community. That impression you want goes against the game design goals. The sense of company, of helping hands everywhere, is what we want to emphasize.
[center]--------------------------[/center]
[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
Yes, but think of the feeling of starting out. Finding yourself alone. Perhaps your first time in the city/area/continent whatever. I believe it would make a large metropolitan area actually FEEL large and metropolitan. Now, having said all that, perhaps a choice could be implemented, a flag, setting, separate servers or whatnot allowing characters to select which option they want based off of their individual playing styles. Which is what I believe General Havok was saying in the first post.
[color=#FF9933]A new beginning, forged from[/color][color=#0000FF][b][i] hope[/color][/b][/i][color=#FF9933] never ending[/color][color=red]!![/color]
[color=red]Beacon of Blazing Faith[/color]--[color=blue]The Titan Legacy[/color]
The ability to switch between the choices would be paramount; it would really be bad not to be able to do a TF, because you are in solo only mode... I could see that being well received, and may even open the door to other player markets. You'd allow people who want to solo the freedom to do so, and at the same time allow full immersion for those who want social play. And I hadn’t thought of the hardware side, but Ozmosis could be right, it might be beneficial to look at this form a Tech perspective.
If it was a very simple matter of being able to switch from one setting to another, I think it would be great. There were some days I wanted to run with my SG mates or others & some days I had certain missions, badges or objectives I was after & did not feel like having to deal with a bunch of others. I would just be against it if it was a one time choice when creating a character or something that took a long processes to change from one state to another. I liked CoH's concept of the hero, vigilante, rogue & villain. I did not like having to go through a fairly lengthy process just to get to certain zones for missions or badges.
Deeds Not Words
could be an interesting system, but how would it affect you if you were in a zone where PvP was enabled? also, with the general world history i've seen, "supers" are fairly common. maybe not "one on every rooftop" common, but i don't think people are surprised to see one either. in my opinion, a good way to handle this situation would be to have player density in an area affect reputation and/or mission rewards. you could boost rewards the less active "supers" there are in an area, thus encouraging people to spread out while they are in the open world and perhaps divert the congested feeling. it makes sense on a realistic scale also, if supers are crowding the high-end districts they are going to find it more difficult to make a name for themselves, but the couple of characters who stick to the low-end neighborhoods would have no trouble becoming local celebrities.
If Brute Force doesn't work, you aren't using enough of it!
I have played games where PvE and PvP were on the same server. Some handled it by starting you off PvE and then after a point allowing you to switch to PvP. Another option was to allow PvP to be switch on/off but you had to wait 24 or 48 hours to switch again (thus preventing system abuse). Still another was to have the player go on a "quest" to activate PvP or back to PvE with the "quest" not resetting again for a set time period. Not sure if any of these would help, but putting out ideas for consideration.***Note-on the systems that allowed PvP to be turned off, they did not allow that same char to do so during combat and could not "log off" for 10 min or more to again try and stop system abuse***
[color=#FF9933]A new beginning, forged from[/color][color=#0000FF][b][i] hope[/color][/b][/i][color=#FF9933] never ending[/color][color=red]!![/color]
[color=red]Beacon of Blazing Faith[/color]--[color=blue]The Titan Legacy[/color]
I'm not sure how far along the writing for the Lore and Campaign World setting are, but one of the ways that works to help with the "why are there so many supers in one area?" is to have the setting not be in the United States, but in some territory (an island) that is a US Commonwealth. Make it have looser laws, and corruption rampant in the government, to give a more realistic feel. There should be a reason that vigilantism is rife. In the one I did, there were three types: Registered supers (who gave up their real names to the government in exchange for protection from lawsuits and for healthcare), Vigilantes (people fighting crime on their own, who could then be arrested or sued), and Super Samaritans (civillians who happen to have metahuman abilities, but don't normally fight crime. They just assist at the scene of disasters, etc.) Just have reasons in the area for why people with metahuman abilities would be drawn there or stay there, and then you have the reason there's so many.
Have a PvP zone where players have actual missions, could get ambushed/arrested on your way to a mission. ^_^
One of the things I loved about CoH/V was the ability to give a character multiple builds. Example, my Main was an Emp/Psi Defender, who was amazing at keeping a team alive thru her buffs and heals as a Defender.
When I was doing my own missions, (usually solo) I'd switch to what I referred as my Offender build, very light on the buffs and heals (if they worked on me, I kept them.. grin), heavy on Psi attacks, and a good handful of powers useful for facility infiltration to get past most of the mobs and to reach the mission goal quickly.
And then there was my Peacebringer with 3 builds... fun, fun, fun!
Throwing in my 2 cents - this would be a great addition - sometimes you just want to solo - other times you want to jump circles around that pretty cape in a skirt and see if she notices ;-)
(or he..no judging)
Tamorand
Tamorand = (Tahm-o-rand) This name originated from the days of Ultima Online. My first character was a Tamer and a Minstrel and an Archer and a Mage - I couldn't figure out a name to portray all skills in a single word. Hence **Tamer + And ** /shrug
I'll check with the rest of the team on this and keep an eye on the thread. I do have some concerns about this feature. The multi-phased instances of the server may be pretty resource intensive. Imagine if 10,000 players were all in their own "instance" of the entire open world. It could impact other possible designs (no promoses!) such as players affecting changes in the city. If each phase had its own changes, the server must then keep each phase in check when players switch in and out of their phase.
There could be too many phases: solo, you formed a team with 4 friends and they were part of your phase, but then you enter their phase, the changes they made in your phase have to say in your phase, but don't apply to their phase. Then there's your SG phase....
Being in your own phase and swithcing out to the "real" world phase could pose certain technical issues we'll have to navigate.
I'm not on the lore team, but I've been writing now for over a decade. There is no reason we can't create a city in the US but have the country or indeed the world be familiar yet different from our real world. Authors and games have done this many times. You choose a pivot point in history and create a divergent time line. You can create vastly different versions of the same city, neighborhood, country whatever, or be very similar and familiar, but once the time line and changes from the pivot point are brought to the surface to the reader, the changes make sense for the world you've created.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I'm not an Engineer, so I can't argue the point, but I would point out another game has this feature in place. From what I have read on what they are doing the world overlay is the same for everyone, you just can't see other players unless you want to. I have no clue as to how they handle that with mobs. One way to handle it could be to have only two phases open and SG. This could help encourage SGs, and let the SG feel like they are the sole defenders of the city. SG mode could mean the SG does not see any of the non-SG people ingame, but maybe see them in LFG searches... Open could mean you see everyone, including the SG, that way people not in SG can see the SG out there and petition to join the SG.
From what I understand the Phasing is more of Everyone is invisible, and you pass through each other, mobs that are being affected by a player that is invisible don't just stand there and act like they are being beat up by a ghost, I believe they simply go invisible to you and the mobs you affect go invisible to them.
I'm very curious about the specifics behind this and will need to investigate further.
I'll report back later with my findings..."To the Google-mobile!!"
Tamorand
Tamorand = (Tahm-o-rand) This name originated from the days of Ultima Online. My first character was a Tamer and a Minstrel and an Archer and a Mage - I couldn't figure out a name to portray all skills in a single word. Hence **Tamer + And ** /shrug
I can see the appeal of wanting to stand on your own against the world, or just wanting to deal with threats in your own way without interference from others. I can also see by extension taking your own small group, or SG, to do the same. If the world is not affected by your activities, then the challenge from a technical view is easier (but may still be involved), but if player activity impacts the world as a whole, then I see problems as have already been discussed.
For me, the overriding element that must not be sacrificed is the sense of community. So, even while some may desire a little quiet time to do what they will, we must not isolate players in their own worlds. Extending that thought, we must also be careful not to channel preferred play into one style or form. Essentially, players must feel that they control how they wish to interact within the game and with the game. Otherwise, we risk creating elitist groups and alienating many players.
We need to keep in mind that the range of potential players needs to stretch as far as it can. So, everything from casual players to concentrated groups of family and friends to power gamers with multiple SG's under their command must be accommodated. At the same time, we need to provide that sense of acceptance and inclusion that I think is vital to a successful game.
Terlin
[color=#ff0000]The Bullpen[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Indeed.
Which is why I think that feature if implemented should be optional. Easy to do and easy to get into your own little world if one chooses, but maybe default mode is regular world wide see everyone mode. A feature like this enables people that want to delve into their own world and feel like they are the only hero can, while when they in the mood can turn it off and be back with everyone one. Like a super hidden feature. A win-win for everyone. No one likesbeing feel like the mechanics are forcing "you all must team you all must get along" type of game play. Some people like MMOs not because of the people but because they like the game but unfortunately many stay away because they feel in many game the mechanics feel like "you must team, you must get along , you must interact with everyone whether you like it or not" feel to it which in the end alienates an entire play style that quite frankly MMOs are sitting to the side and losing money on that they can cash in on if they chose to. Some people take longer to warm up to being among total strangers but it's annoying when it's seemed forced as soon as they log on.
At the very least I think it should be implemented with ignore feature. When you ignore someone, you cant see them they cant see you and cant interact with ya at all, meaning they cant continue to grief you in other ways outside chat. Especially if it's left up to the player to deal with nefarious behavior of other players.
Fundamentally, this all boils down to the engine capabilities and how much of a business priority it is decided to be. I can speak to the former but not the latter.
Being able to not show folks on the client side may be doable, but has a (very) high risk of having unintended and probably undesirable side effects. If implemented, one thing I can almost guarantee that it *won't* do is try to second-guess you. If you leave it set to "5 people in the world" and go into a PvP instance (whatever that means), then congratulations, almost everyone is a Stalker with perfect stealth. This would save graphics load but not network load.
Being able to filter on the serve side would save (some) network load, but is significantly more complicated. The server does have a concept related to it (which is how it avoids sending data about folks who are all the way across the zone), but we currently have no way to evaluate what is really possible to do with that in detail, as it would require a source license. The big question is whether it could be done without breaking other parts of the server, that assume they can find out various information based on relevance.
However, in both of these cases, it seems likely that the net result would be that some random subset of folks, up to the limit set, would appear — but that subset would be constantly changing as folks moved around, or whatever other criteria we used changed. So you'd get a 'ghost crowd moving around you' effect — someone would appear a few feet away as the moved closer to you (at the same time someone else disappeared), walk by, then vanish again, resulting in someone else reappearing, even if they might not have moved the whole time.
[hr]
[color=#ff0000]Developer Emeritus[/color]
and multipurpose sheep
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
However ammusing this would be to see, I doubt that would work well in a global setting....
Would there be no why to be able to set it to three options: See no one, See Super Group, See everyhting?
At the moment, too early to really be sure, but if it is possible at all it is likely to be only client-side; trying to introduce this level of additional checking for every player (quite possibly 'every mobile thing in the world, period' if things aren't arranged in the source to make it sane) seems likely to have the potential for unacceptable performance impacts. Which, again, is not a "no", but it means building and keeping a bunch of additional data around, for every player in the zone — potentially hundreds of entries *each* if they're part of a large supergroup.
It could also turn out to be trivially simple, though that seems not terribly likely — we simply won't be able to tell until we have more access to the low-level logic.
[hr]
[color=#ff0000]Developer Emeritus[/color]
and multipurpose sheep
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
This, in particular, reminded me of Warframe and the system they have in place that allows you to set yourself solo, private, or public. It's been a while since I played but I believe 'private' allows in your squad/guild and friends list to join you, while in 'public' anyone can join you and you can jump in on missions with other people. Admittedly it's not the ideal comparison, what with Warframe being an online FPS game.
It's an intriguing idea although, to be frank, I'm not yet certain if I'm in favor of it.
- - - - -
[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Kinda an aside here but related I think... There has been some discussion of shards. One big map with I'm sure some sort of regions or areas within the overall map but with multiple shards like in COH ala Atlas Park 1 -> Atlas Park 12 etc...
I wonder what it would be like if the players could initiate shards for SG activities/special events/raids or whatever... Or at least have a standard set of shards available. This could serve to ease congestion in a couple of ways.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
This idea has some merit... Allowing a SG to be able to make request, to the server, for a personel "shard" for thier own use.
I can see a lot of dedicated shard possibly popping up then... or at least the developers should *prepare* for that (and try to see what the upper limit is, and how it affects their maps/server performance...)
I fail to see the attraction. You and your SG alone in your universe? Besides, there will eventually be hundreds of SGs.
Steve
___
"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely [i]will not stop, ever,[/i] until we are live!"
Warcabbit
For me the attraction is for those times when there are world events going on, like holiday stuff or whatever else the devs may come up with and it gets hectic trying to get everyone on the same page having a unique shard to link into might make it a bit easier. Not necessarily exclusive to one SG. It's just a thought. Imagine trying to sync up with ten or twenty people in one giant map with rikti dropping in like flies and the like.
I know there were times when the servers were so busy I would get kicked off except for late in the evening or early in the morning. Depending on how it is set up this might be a way around those kinds of issues.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
Might I recommend an SG base for such occasions?
I very much doubt that TPP will set up their shards so that some will have world/holiday events going on and others will not. You're looking for an instanced area in which everyone can gather without having to worry about what the game or other people are doing. Hence, SG base.
- - - - -
[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I think this is part and parcel of the MMO medium. Eventually the world's going to be full of super-powered individuals. You're going to see and interact with them. It might even get to the point that they become an annoyance. "Geez, how many Batmen are there in the world?!?"
I hate to advise this, but if you want to feel like you're one of a very elite few, the MMO medium is not for you. Best stick with traditional CRPGs.
--
"My attention span doesn't wander. It takes long trips to exotic locales where it meets strange women that leave it crying and broken in the hot, hot sun."
--me
Besides, one of the complaints I heard a lot before the plug was pulled on CoX was that the city was empty. I believe this was only partly due to any decline in player numbers. Instead, I think a lot of perq powers that allowed quick travel accounted for characters spending more time in missions than in the world, so the world looked emptier than it actually was.
I don't want to see fewer people as I travel around the City of Titans; I want to see more. I want the market locations to be busy, for the central park area to be buzzing, to see all sorts of interesting characters flying/jumping/speeding/TPing by, and to bump into friends unexpectedly.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I think that this issue has to partially be addressed in the game lore. Why are there so many heroes? Why so many mutants, mages, and other super-powered denizens? Why do all these inventors have super-suits and battle armors, when the average police officer on the street is lucky to have kevlar? Just what attracts this planet, this city, to all these aliens (whether you come from Mars, Analogue-Krypton, another galaxy, universe or dimension)?
Once you understand why there are so many heroes in the world, then there's less disruption of immersion.
--
"My attention span doesn't wander. It takes long trips to exotic locales where it meets strange women that leave it crying and broken in the hot, hot sun."
--me
This. Exactly this.
(Robin) Christina Lea
http://www.amazon.com/author/christinalea
How many is too many, how many Supers are expected online at once? What percentage of the population should be "Super"? What's the population of the City of Titans (the city, not the game)? What's the population density (people per square mile)? How many square miles is the city?
Not trying to be anal or difficult, just kick ideas around. I want the game to feel like a city, with the hustle and bustle. I don't want it to feel like the Medium Sized Town Populated By Mainly Supers with a few NPC's for window dressing.
Say 10,000 players on at once (probably way too high, but it's a number). If 1% of population is Super, you're talking a population of 1 million. Probably not realistic for there to be 1e6 sims walking around, and that could clutter up gameplay with Supers outnumbered 99:1.
Frankly, MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer, not Mainly My, and even though I like to see solo play as a viable option, the thought of a big game world with few other players sounds very stale, sterile and unappealing.
Yes, this mostly.
With most of the actual action taking place in mission instances, leaving the open world mostly for travel and exploration, it should not be much of a problem, aside from areas designed as player hubs where meeting a lot of other players and potential team mates is working as intended.
I think City of Heroes did very well there actually. Aside from Freedom I never felt it was "full" anywhere but in central Atlas Park or Pocket D, very few open world missions (let alone objective-stealing), and there was always plenty of city space to go where I could be on my own if I felt like it.
(And yes, it rather annoyed me too when later on the ever more helpful temp powers and tricks for instant travel made the game world more and more obsolete.)
rah.
DCUO's lore is that millions of nanobots are spread over the city so you ended up with the place having tons of metahumans. Marvel's comic universe says that people just started having mutations. But, ya know part of the reason there are so many capes running around I think is just part of the players backstory. I don't think the game itself has to really define or say why there are so many heroes running around. It's a city made of hundreds of stories. Each story ending with a person deciding to become a hero or villain. Really just my opinion. Not very educated one. =P But it's mine so it doesnt have to be.
As for the amounts of players themselves and just running around and feeling like you can't complete any quests cause there are just too many people running around doing the same quest. I can feel that and maybe just having zone servers (i.e. Atlas 1, Atlas 2 ) or something with player limits couldn't hurt too much. Or make a lot of stuff instanced. Or use dynamic servers like WoW does and just run into an area that is suddenly only for you and when ya return to that spot its back to normal again. But it is nice to at times to go into an area and actually see people and not sit there wondering if anyone plays anymore.
----------------------------------------
Owner and Big Sister of the Justice Girls -Champions Online-City of Titans-
Forum Breaker
Leader of the Ellysyn Dark Ensemble
You could (depending on tech) set certain areas (city hall, pvp zones, party area) to automatically or background auto set to MMO setting for costume contests n such. Venturing away from these areas though drops back to the customer choice. I always love Costume Contests but am a dedicated soloist. I would hate to miss out on a CC opportunity because of my settings.
Yeah, that sounds like a Jedi. Massacre a whole room full of people, then stand around apologizing for it. - Swtor NPC
I personally like how Champions Online created the Powerhouse Theater. A great place to hold costume contests without disrupting the rest of the grid.
--
"My attention span doesn't wander. It takes long trips to exotic locales where it meets strange women that leave it crying and broken in the hot, hot sun."
--me
10 or so instances of the city holding 250-500 players each, zone chat across all instances. You can switch instances through the map, much the way CO does it. This would accommodate everyone, but still have enough room to do your own thing, and would make grouping easy because you can just switch to a low population instance to get your group all together.
This, for the love of Isis. CO kind of messed up teaming by limiting teams to 5 but they DID do the cross-instance thing well. If you want to do a huge event, pick a low-pop server for everyone to meet it. I would go to a low-pop server for Market stuff to reduce lag.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Agreed!
While I appreciate the ability to only show SG mates or even only self, I don't see the merit.
However, the ability to turn OFF (ignore) players is something I greatly wish existed. So much RP Griefing occurs in every game. My intent is to be good to everyone, but when someone starts being a jerk I want them to stop existing for my client. I don't care if they destroy destructible items in the game world or do other things but there are many times I simply do not want to see, hear or be able to be moved by other players*.
These people are a great minority but they have a huge impact on my gameplay experience.
* I really hope your system makes a resting or emote using character to take precedence when they occupy a space for a time (not the Marvel Heroes Model). I'd recommend that resting characters have auto casting emotes that move them and prevent "objective blocking". Most importantly tho is DON'T let other players move them or push them.. this is (was when I last played) a huge griefer tool in Champions Online. Prioity should have Still Emotes first (sitting can't be interrupted, etc) Resting Characters 2nd, Moving Characters (even Moving Emotes or Animations) third. This obviously is removed in PvP.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Later in the COH life-cycle server moves was one way I avoided the crowds and lag, but then TF start-ups were few and far between. Still assuming it is technically viable and Titan City is crowded I think it would be a neat feature for soloing.
For entire zones, personal shards (or even small group shards) would be quite the memory multiplier:
Compare memory allocation on the servers for tracking (position: x,y,z,pitch,yaw,roll, plus action (animation):
100 players all in 1 shard, plus 1000 NPC's tracked for that shard. = 1100 resources to track
100 players across 20 shards, plus 1000 PNC's tracked in each shard. = 20100 resources to track.
I'd suggested "private shards" as a feature in another thread, but I was thinking of the small instances, like dojos or dance halls, where social events may take place.
-----------------
Y'know, phasing may not be too necessary here. In CoH, we had a few public spaces where people congregated, but if the game encouraged the use of the smaller instanced social spaces, you may naturally see fewer people at any one time in most of the city. I know that in CoH, if I avoided Atlas Park and the regular zone events like the Rikti invasion, my wife and I could go an entire night with encountering perhaps 2-3 other players.
I remember when I was a new guy in CoH and I was fighting some thugs and doing okay, and then another band of thugs walked by and decided to join in. At that point, I was totally Not Okay and expecting to die, when there was a flare of green light and I was Okay again! I drove back in and finished cleaning up the thugs, then looked around and shouted great thanks to the Defender who had healed me, while passing by.
That's why I like a game with a bit of population and Don't want to be 'all alone in the big city'.
Be Well!
Fireheart
One of my favorite pastimes on some of my defenders was drive-by buffing. :D
I liked doing things like drive-by stuns and holds, especially if they weren't damaging so I wouldn't be kill-stealing.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Hopefully they wont over do event zones thing like in COX. Especially annoying when ya have an open world mission to complete to advance the story arc and rikti raid rikti raid rikti raid, with a zombie invasion and that other one thrown in there. Here and there is fine, but hopefully they wont clear the entire zone of mobs when those events happen.
I'm wondering if the ability to have a zone where the event isn't going on might be useful here. So if it's our version of a zone-clearing event, go to another instance of said zone.
If they go that route, it would be nice to have an indicator which versions of each zone has an event wide event going on and which don't.
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
[b]THIS.[/b]
Also, just like you get a short immunity after being mezzed, a zone should get a short immunity to [i]all[/i] major events for a period of time after a major event. (By "major" I mean things like Rikti Raid, Zombies, and Halloween, and not much less disruptive zone events like Ghost Ship, Arsonists, or Lusca.)
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
That would work too.