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Throw convention out the window

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Walpurgisnacht
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Throw convention out the window

MMOs. I was thinking about them this morning which is why I came around to this forum. Kinda semi normal as I have been drafting a game for five years now and its almost done.

So, I was thinking about recent games I tried that didnt last long for me: WildStar, ArcheAge, ESO. Even ESO wasnt very open world. EQ the first and CoH were open world. If you didnt wanna do missions, you could kill giant monsters or run around in the sewers or perez park.

But its not enough to backpedal away from bad design. Throw the accumulating verdigris'd crap out the window!

1) Throw out WASD 1234567890 - but keep those areas as far as finger memory is concerned.
1a) Use the WASD region for attacks and movement. A= left handed attacks and actions; D= right handed attacks and actions W= moving forward attacks and actions, like flying kicks. S= rear counterattack type action. Accentuate these with CTRL ALT and SHIFT and you have more of a Mortal Kombat than an EQ
1b) Neverwinter (the recent MMO) had it more on the ball with TAB, 1, 2, 3, 4, Q, E, R, T, F and so on. Use these for more miscellaneous actions that are common in other games: F for interact. Z for panic button power, CTRL for stealth actions, E and R for primary power actions.

2) Throw out the dialog box quest system. I realize since you will be using other game engines in all likelihood - that this seems too baby with the bathwater. No, just use dialog boxes for things but not the whole WoW/EQ2 quest dynamic with golden exclamation points and looking up quests online. Screw games where every mob is a quest mob. Srsly. And here's how:
2a) Have a "cast of characters" that uses RNG algorhythms to decide what they are doing today. A shopkeeper will most often be at the shop, but might get the flu. Or they were bitten by a werewolf, either way. The major heroes and villans of your setting should randomly appear around the city just like spiderman or doc doom.
2b) Have a list of drama elements, much like a deck of cards in a game like Munchkin that follow a RNG algorhythm program so that in an area where there are muggers, muggings randomly happen. In abandoned industrial warehouses, sometimes a mad scientist will have set up his evil lair. That sort of thing. Variety IS adventure.

The last thing is probably too unrealistic. But you could have an outskirts region where it was kinda like bland countryside and suburbs but instanced. So, it simulates there being a real world outside the city. The instancing makes it so you dont have to concrete map the whole planet. Honestly, you could make whole areas of nondescript extra city this way too, and thus it would feasibly be larger than the typical MMO setup. But these really dont seem to be plausible unless you have the resources to build your whole engine from the ground up. So, just sayin.

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Walkin down the streets of Soho in the rain.

Lothic
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For what it's worth I think

For what it's worth I think CoT will try to innovate wherever it makes sense. On the other hand it is trying to be a "spiritual successor" to a previous game so almost by definition it can't really deviate too far from the "traditional MMO" model it originated from. All I'm saying is that CoT is not going to be a "hyper-revolutionary" game for whatever good or bad that'll mean for us. *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Brighellac
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It's also being created by a

It's also being created by a startup company with a relatively limited budget.

Radiac
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I don't understand why we

I don't understand why we would NEED to get rid of the WASD keys, per se. What's wrong with that system that it needs to be revamped? Are you advocating change for the sake of change alone? Where's the value added in switching to a new system? Personally , I HATE HATE HATE it when Microsoft decides to move all the controls around in Windows/Word/Excel/Powerpoint JUST because it's a new version and they feel like they have to make it look different than the last one. I would prefer they just keep all my icons, buttons, controls, tabs, menus, etc where I've learned they were instead of making me adapt to all new everything simply for the sake of making it feel "new". That is not an improvement, it's just change for the sake of change (and in Microsoft's case, for the sake of justifying the fact that they want you to buy a new software bundle again).

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I agree with Lothic that they

I agree with Lothic that they probably won't stray too far from CoH for the basic questing system.

As far as controls go, Every MMO I have ever played let you remap the controls in whatever way the player wants. MWM have stated in numerous threads (which I don't have time to research and link at this time) that we will be able to customize the controls at least as much as CoH allowed.

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JayBezz
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I haven't read any of the

I haven't read any of the actual suggestions posted here.. all i have to say is the game has left pre-production. Most of the systems that will exist in game are created in their early form and will change based on tested data and feedback.

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Cute Kitsune
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I don't use WASD, ever. I use

I don't use WASD, ever. I use Up Down Left Right Num 0-4 Num . R. CTRL Shift & Alt ? > Delete End and PG Down. Then I use a 15 button programable mouse.
OR on FFXIV I use my PS3 controller for everything but typing.

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It applies here too, I'm passionate not hostile.

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As many have pointed out,

As many have pointed out, there hopefully will be a customization method available for each individual to set up their own version of how they want their keyboard or mouse to do the things they want them to do. No doubt that CoT will more than likely use the standard WASD Spacebar keyboard layout as default, after all that is what people are the most used to because of every other MMO in the world out there doing it.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

Segev
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I am left-handed. I almost

I am left-handed. I almost always remap my WASD keys, usually to the numpad, because it's over on the right hand side of my keyboard. Key remapping is going to be our most common response to requests that we change the controls; the default will be the default, but we will be offering a lot of customizability in key-mapping so that everybody can set up their keyboards how they like. At least, that's our goal; as always, we're only human.

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Cinnder
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Segev wrote:
Segev wrote:

...we're only human.

So, no support for tentacle peripherals, then?

Spurn all ye kindle.

Segev
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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Segev wrote:

...we're only human.

So, no support for tentacle peripherals, then?

That would definitely be a third-party, aftermarket item. We couldn't get the licenses.

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Gangrel
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Segev wrote:
Segev wrote:

I am left-handed. I almost always remap my WASD keys, usually to the numpad, because it's over on the right hand side of my keyboard. Key remapping is going to be our most common response to requests that we change the controls; the default will be the default, but we will be offering a lot of customizability in key-mapping so that everybody can set up their keyboards how they like. At least, that's our goal; as always, we're only human.

Strangely enough, I am left handed and yet use the mouse right handed, but that is how I learnt to use it.

I only actually write and throw/bowl left handed; I do almost everything else right handed.

But that is not to say that I support the OP though for just throwing convention out of the window. As others have said, make it customisable. That I cannot deny, but also sticking to control conventions give people a *default* "Right, this is how it works" so that there is the "pick up and play" ability.

That is why most console games use similar controls, even between different companies. Xbox and Playstation games will use *highly similar* if not identical control schemes for titles that appear on both consoles.

Hell, even different games in the same genre on the same console will use very similar controls. This isn't due to "laziness", but because if you make it to different from the norm, people are more likely to pick it up and then put it down like a pile of dog poop.

Just because its different from expected.

Side note: On PC, you have not just WASD setup, but also ESDF... the latter seems to be picking up some backing amongst some players of MMO's (typically the more limited "action setup" style as it were).

Then there are players like me, who use a Razer Tartarus/Logitech G13 keyboard to play with, so the actual *keys* that are used are not important. It is more *where* those keys are that is important.

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I do not use WASD.

I do not use WASD.

I use WERD.

No, I'm not joking. I use E for forward, D for backward and W/R for strafing left/right.

This repositions my left hand into a location where it is easier/more natural to reach additional number and function keys at the top of the keyboard, while also opening up space on QAZ for additional programmable functions (I use QA for throttle control in space in Star Trek Online, for example).

Furthermore, because of the size of my hand and the "natural" arch and lay of my fingers on the keyboard, my left hand easily comes to rest with a finger on the W (4th), E (middle) and F (index) fingers. On many computer keyboards, there is a raised bump on the F key, giving an easy tactile feedback cue orienting the left hand on the QWERTY keyboard. This enhances my ability to "drive" heads up with eyes on the screen rather than looking down at the keyboard using more muscle memory of key positions and enhancing my reaction speeds.

Took me about a week to retrain my hand(s) to use the inverted and relocated key scheme, during which I kept hitting the wrong keys to control my movements, but after 2 weeks I got really comfortable with using WERD instead of WASD, particularly since it kept my fingers closer to the number and function keys used for attacking things, making all kinds of activities that much faster and easier to do.


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I've got that beat for

I've got that beat for oddness.

I used to just use the default WASD in CoH, but after CoH I began experimenting and eventually settled on using my left hand in normal typing position with the letter keys under and around my fingers bound to representing the different rows of powers on the power tray (this actually would have worked even better in CoH with all of the multiple rows of power trays).

This gives me very quick and intuitive access to all of my powers and puts me at least halfway in position to type so I can go from playing to chatting quickly and easily since I don't use teamspeak or any of that stuff.

That puts ALL of my movement in the mouse in my right hand.

I just use a normal mouse, and when possible, I prefer to use mouseclick Left to strafe left, mouseclick Right to strafe right, simultaneous Left+Right mouseclick to move forward, the middle click/scroll button to move backward (but I leave the actual scrolling function to control camera distance), and then I just turn by moving the mouse.

I personally find this very intuitive and I can move VERY well, but not all games let you bind a normal mouse that completely and freely (but I hope, hope, HOPE CoT will).

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Izzy
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I do not use WASD.
I use WERD.

Oh Noes... I guess you didnt use Q and E to Pan the camera around? :{
I guess you wins and you loose some. :P

Brighellac
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Segev wrote:
Segev wrote:

Cinnder wrote:
Segev wrote:

...we're only human.

So, no support for tentacle peripherals, then?

That would definitely be a third-party, aftermarket item. We couldn't get the licenses.

So you admit to being humans with the ultimate plan of allying with Cthulhu Like Old Ones at some later date.

I predict themightypaladin will not be happy.

The Horror, The Horror.

Segev
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Brighellac wrote:
Brighellac wrote:

Segev wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
Segev wrote:

...we're only human.

So, no support for tentacle peripherals, then?

That would definitely be a third-party, aftermarket item. We couldn't get the licenses.

So you admit to being humans with the ultimate plan of allying with Cthulhu Like Old Ones at some later date.
I predict themightypaladin will not be happy.
The Horror, The Horror.

We tried, but R'yleh was not receptive to the arrangement. Something about interdimensional tarriffs not being worth it. I personally suspect they were just put off by Dr. Tyche's beard. It kept leering at their lawyer.

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Cute Kitsune
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Dr. Tyche's beard should have

Dr. Tyche's beard should have worn panties and a bra. They'd have taken that leering totally positively and you've have gotten those licenses easy. Trust me it works, I'm under contract to not reveal how I know unfortunately.

The line between knowing and understanding is often blurred.
Cute Kitsune the Anti Villain of Phoenix Rising.
I have more fervor then empathy, I still like you.~Me to a friend
It applies here too, I'm passionate not hostile.

Radiac
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This sounds like a bunch of

This sounds like a bunch of Secrets Forums Were Not Meant To Know to me. Now if you'll excuse I feel the compelling need to go gnaw my own legs off.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Brighellac
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Are you ready to take the

Are you ready to take the violence hit to your alignment, Radiac?