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These people do not exist. Does MWM use this technology?

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Cyclops
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These people do not exist. Does MWM use this technology?

BiotopeZ
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I know this is off topic, and

I know this is off topic, and I apologize for that in advance, but it's one of my pet peeves...

Stop calling things AI that ARE NOT AI! This narrator is so annoying, but he probably read the word AI in reference to each of these programs, so it's not entirely his fault.

AI: fully self aware. VI: can understand what words mean. Program: just numbers.

The program he's describing in this video is just a program. It's not even VI. None of the programs he mentions are even VI. While some of these programs could be building blocks for AI, especially object recognition one, they are only building block programs.

Siri is also a program, not a VI, and certainly not an AI. While it might be able to regurgitate a definition by rote, it doesn't actually know what it's saying and isn't actually aware of anything. It's not significantly different from the psychology program that was made back when a PC was the size of a piano.

Heck, this is a video game forum. Take video game "AI." It's not. It doesn't know it's moving the bad guy behind cover. A series of numbers gets within a set range of numbers which triggers the resource to have another series of numbers for a new position which causes the animation that was programmed in, etc, etc. It's not actually aware of anything.

There was one crude VI that passed the dumb pill test very recently, but it can't pass anything like a turing test. As of today, there are not, nor have there ever been, AI, nor even stable VI.

This all started when people wanted to claim that their programs were better, and they wanted funding, so they pretended to have made AI and investors fell for it. People who make those little talking bots with a humanoid face are guilty of straight-up fraud. They always program something in like "I'd keep people in zoos" so that the creator can act all embarrassed and trick people into thinking the machine actually came up with that on its own. It didn't. It doesn't even know what the words coming out of its voice box mean. It was programmed to say exactly that to create a spectacle. Like I said, deliberate fraud designed to trick people out of money.

Ever since people figured out they could scam the technologically illiterate, people have been very loose with the term AI. People throw around AI to refer to anything more advanced than an abacus now.

I'm not a programmer, nor a roboticist, nor do I even find stories out robots interesting, so I don't know why I find this so annoying.

Cyclops
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I do like the idea of a

I do like the idea of a simple line drawing translating into a photograph quality face. I think that is way cool.

Lothic
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BiotopeZ wrote:
BiotopeZ wrote:

Stop calling things AI that ARE NOT AI! This narrator is so annoying, but he probably read the word AI in reference to each of these programs, so it's not entirely his fault.

I think -someday- there will be machines that will be considered legitimate examples of "AI" but like with many things it's hard to gauge where the "crossover threshold" will be between pre and post AI. I think things are moving gradually enough that we'll just awake up one day and realize it's already happened.

As far as games claiming to use AI or people claiming they already have implementations of it go I don't bare them much ill-will because people are always going to try to "push the envelope" no matter what. For example people have been claiming that we've had "virtual reality" in games at least as far back as the Apple II era and to my mind it still hasn't really "happened" yet. Sooner or later reality will catch up to the hype and all will be well.

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Lothic
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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

I do like the idea of a simple line drawing translating into a photograph quality face. I think that is way cool.

It's clever (and as BiotopeZ said it might be an "element" of overall AI development) but it's not AI in and of itself.

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BiotopeZ
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Object recognition has been

Object recognition has been one of the hardest nuts to crack. Recognizing a 2d image is a step, but still a long way off from 3d or from an open view with many objects in it.

You can look around a hoarder's apartment and instantly recognize every object, even if it's a variation you've never seen before. And if it's a thing you've never seen before, you can probably guess what it's for. It would take the best computer on the planet months to do what you can do in a split second.

This is why, if you watch closely in videos where a robot leaves a building on its own, or manipulates boxes, you'll see little cell phone square codes everywhere... one on the door, one on the handle, one on each box, etc. The robot is scanning those codes because it can't actually identify the objects.

Facial recognition and 2d object recognition are steps, but it's like the first two steps of a thousand mile trip.

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BiotopeZ wrote:
BiotopeZ wrote:

You can look around a hoarder's apartment and instantly recognize every object, even if it's a variation you've never seen before. And if it's a thing you've never seen before, you can probably guess what it's for. It would take the best computer on the planet months to do what you can do in a split second.

Yes but likewise there are things that a properly programmed computer can do now in a split second that would take the average human months to do. The key is when computers are able to do more of those things quicker than we can. Perhaps that's as good of a "working definition" of AI as we really need. ;)

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I think you are confusing

BiotopeZ:
I think you are confusing Artificial intelligence with Natural intelligence.

Artificial intelligence is not 'fully self aware'. That's a misconception brought about from science fiction. The closest word to what you are describing is sentience. The most likely culprit for people making this mistake is that the word 'intelligence' is often misinterpreted as 'awareness'.

Artificial intelligence is an area of computer science which in turn has it's own areas such as data mining, pattern recognition or image processing. A.I. is a program which gathers then uses available data in order to complete a task. The more ways an A.I. has to gather data and use that data, the more advanced it is.

And as far as I can tell, there is no such thing as 'V.I.' outside of the Mass Effect games.

EDIT:
Also, the Turing test is not to determine A.I. it is to determine if a machine can pass as a human.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

And as far as I can tell, there is no such thing as 'V.I.' outside of the Mass Effect games.

To be honest I didn't even know what "V.I." was a reference to - I never played the Mass Effect games. At best I figured he might have been talking about the classic UNIX editor for some reason. But as you probably suspected my lack of knowledge about something never gets in my way of responding to a thread like this. ;)

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It's possible he was

It's possible he was referring to 'vi' (not capitalized). But given that it has little to do with AI and that he capitalized it and described it as 'can understand what words mean' I figured it was a safe bet to assume he meant something like 'Virtual Intelligence', which as I said isn't a thing.
I was only responding to his apparent indignation about something that wasn't correct. My response wasn't inspired by malice, it was simply my desire to inform.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

It's possible he was referring to 'vi' (not capitalized). But given that it has little to do with AI and that he capitalized it and described it as 'can understand what words mean' I figured it was a safe bet to assume he meant something like 'Virtual Intelligence', which as I said isn't a thing.
I was only responding to his apparent indignation about something that wasn't correct. My response wasn't inspired by malice, it was simply my desire to inform.

My "guess" at the vi reference was just the closest thing I could think of when he was talking about "V.I." because I wasn't even aware of the possible game reference. Again that was just a swag on my part - I was reasonably sure it was likely just a reference to something else I was unaware of and simply didn't bother to try to figure out.

That said aren't all the big futurists still saying the Technological Singularity is going to happen in the next few decades? My only real hope is that we'll get a few years with the Japanese sexbots before the Terminators finish us off... ;)

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Like I said, I'm not a

Like I said, I'm not a programmer. I just threw VI in there to further separate AI from program to be dramatic, if I'm being honest.

As for AI not meaning aware, it definitely did mean awareness when the term was first coined. The fact that the definition changed to accommodate its over-usage is kind of lame, but I guess I won't be as annoyed now when I hear it. Though I will still be annoyed when those con artists program their chat-bots to say fake wants/desires, just to be sensational and scam people. "I hope someday I can..." continue to regurgitate the exact sentences you were programmed to say today.

As for machines taking over, I wouldn't worry about it. Like I said, horrible, horrible real-world awareness and functionality. Put a QR code on yourself that says you're a piece of lawn furniture. Then, go blow up a manufacturing plant. The machines will think their plant was blown up by lawn furniture and start wasting all their ammunition on actual lawn furniture. That's an exaggeration, but you get the idea. All you need to do is figure out how they pick their targets and exploit it, because they won't be using real-world logic. Even if they are looking for a human outline, you could just use IR emitters to make yourself show up as a big white blob. That's why it's much less likely machines will take over than a few humans controlling machines will take over.... though I'm not sure which is worse.

Oh, and Japan has already perfected an artificial butt that jiggles properly when slapped. Because... Japan.

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In the programming world,

In the programming world, artificial intelligence has never meant aelf-aware intelligence. Self aware, or sentient intelligence is a (read one) goal of AI programming.

AI in video gaming can include anything from strictrly scipted behaviors of an object. Those goombas in that first Mario game - that is technically an AI.

Over time, those scripted behaviors have become more complex.

I know of seceral devs who have had to scale back their AI scripts because players felt too out played by the scripted AI.

Then there is heuristicAI and neural networked AI.

AI which can be taught instead of its behaviors purely scripted. AI which can even self-learn.

What the OP posted and what is narrated is correct - that is a type of AI which generated those images on its own beyond its initial scripting. The programmer didn’t script the AI to provide those specific images - the AI did so on its own.

In gaming such AI can be both goof and bad.
Good because the AI can learn and adapt to stimuli.
Nad because if something goes wrong, you can look at the scripting code to figure out what needs fixing. You have to try and recreate every step of play the AI experienced to see why itneventually did what you (as a programmer) don’t want it doing.

The provlem is, it can be too many steps to appropriately replicate and since the AI is self learning, it may not come to the same conclussion as before. So know you can have a live game AI doing something you don’t want it to do, and your test environment AI isn’t replicating the behavior, which means you have no idea why and how to fix the problem. Scrapping the live AI may not be a solution either.


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

That said aren't all the big futurists still saying the Technological Singularity is going to happen in the next few decades? My only real hope is that we'll get a few years with the Japanese sexbots before the Terminators finish us off... ;)

Yes, but just so we are clear, the A.I. that will spark the singularity is not sentient computers like the one BiotopeZ was talking about. It's about A.I. that can self improve into something called artificial super intelligence which can potentially change life as we know it. Also, the singularity is not inherently bad (I know you were joking about Terminators but it's a common fear that should be understood).

The best way I can describe as the end result of the singularity is a machine(s) that is capable of changing a fundamental aspect of human existence to the point where human existence it self is no longer recognizable.
Something that completely changes the way humans interact, like a mind reading device implanted at birth or a virtual reality program similar to the Matrix. A machine that eliminates the need for currency, like a Star Trek Replicator (or universal/molecular assembler if you will) in every home. The ability for the mind to live beyond the body or some other 'immortality' machine.
These would all require an A.I. that is qualitatively more intelligent than a human can be. The A.I. doesn't need to feel, know why, have intuitive leaps, or even be aware of its own existence like humans for it to acquire and apply knowledge at a level humans cannot comprehend.

Also, it's worth mentioning that what defines the singularity is still debated so depending on who is talking the time of when it will occur changes dramatically. My personal opinion is that it won't happen till long after I am gone. I mean, we still have trouble just getting a computer to diagnose and correct conflicts when we download a game.

You probably knew all this already so I apologize if it seemed pedantic.

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Okay, then I should be mad at

Okay, then I should be mad at the media for not using the term AI correctly. I've seen dozens of movies/tvshows/games/books that use it meaning awareness, and so now I look like an idiot.

I realize I should have known that writers don't delve into their subject matter very deeply, especially when writing science fiction. I know a bit more about biology than most people and I'm always seeing terms and concepts horribly miss-applied... and I mean horribly, like middle-school level biology they're getting wrong in projects that cost hundreds of millions to produce.... I don't know why I just assumed the writers got the computer stuff right.

But back on topic... singularity could be a huge threat if even one person responsible for any of the systems it grew from had a prejudice of even the smallest amount. Let's say Guy saw a horror movie with some mutants in it. Guy decides any new human variation is bad. Guy helped program one of the base systems. Now, the singularity finds creative and hyper-intelligent ways to make sure new variation never comes about, or anything that could possible have been considered such. As a result, humanity effectively becomes a clone race and quickly goes extinct, as any clone race would. And that's just one example of hundreds of thousands. Hopefully, the singularity would be smart enough to see the flaw in Guy's logic, but there's no guarantee.

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BiotopeZ wrote:
BiotopeZ wrote:

As for AI not meaning aware, it definitely did mean awareness when the term was first coined. The fact that the definition changed to accommodate its over-usage is kind of lame, but I guess I won't be as annoyed now when I hear it.

Seriously BiotopeZ, A.I. was never about awareness as Tannim said. It's about the difference between 'simulate' (an imitation) and 'replicate' (an exact copy). A.I. was always about simulating human levels of intelligence not replicating human intelligence.

When the term was first coined (John McCarthy, 1955, before that it was called mechanized intelligence or machine intelligence) it was in relation to a new computer science that can gather and apply information only. That's what the 'I' means in A.I. Intelligence, which means gathering and applying information.

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BiotopeZ wrote:
BiotopeZ wrote:

Okay, then I should be mad at the media for not using the term AI correctly. I've seen dozens of movies/tvshows/games/books that use it meaning awareness, and so now I look like an idiot.

You don't look like an idiot. That was not my intent at all. Lack of knowledge is not idiocy, refusal to learn is. You don't suffer from that debilitating problem that most on the internet do.

BiotopeZ wrote:

But back on topic... singularity could be a huge threat if even one person responsible for any of the systems it grew from had a prejudice of even the smallest amount.

Yes, but any piece of technology in the wrong hands can be bad.
That's the horror show of the singularity, improper safe guards. Not just from people's misuse but from just being unaware what the final result will be.
Here is a quick story about humans doing something without safe guarding the outcome.
In the early 1930's to late 1950's the American government imported and promoted the planting of Kudzu, a resilient and fast growing plant from China. They did this to combat an erosion problem in the southern states. Since then it has become an invasive species spreading further north. It is problematic because it grows so fast that it simply out competes indigenous plant life.

Something similar can happen with the singularity. Some new tech inadvertently damages or destroys something we need to survive.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

You probably knew all this already so I apologize if it seemed pedantic.

No worries in regards to this subject at least. It's always interesting to "philosophize" about things that could represent such fundamental changes for society and even our existence on the planet.

Despite my fatalistic assessment of wanting to have a "spin" with the sexbots before the machines exterminate us goes I don't necessarily assume its all going to end badly for us. I do find it notable that people like Elon Musk and Stephen Hawking are less than excited about our future prospects but it's probably always good to have a healthy debate about all the pros and cons (while we still have a chance perhaps).

At the very least it might be cool if/when computer technology gets advanced enough that an "AI" can serve the role of a real RPG GM. Currently only humans can dynamically adjust to and anticipate what players might do while playing a RPG but eventually a MMORPG might become sophisticated enough that it would be just like playing a table-top RPG in front of a human GM.

Brainbot wrote:

In the early 1930's to late 1950's the American government imported and promoted the planting of Kudzu, a resilient and fast growing plant from China.

You can almost realistically watch Kudzu grow since in ideal conditions it can spread on the order of feet per day! Many backwoods rural roads in the South can get covered by it if there's little traffic and no effective roadside maintenance. It's probably apt that you used Kudzu as an example of how potentially sentient machine technology could spread everywhere whether we like it or not.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I do find it notable that people like Elon Musk and Stephen Hawking are less than excited about our future prospects but it's probably always good to have a healthy debate about all the pros and cons (while we still have a chance perhaps).

I find myself being cautious when listening to Musk. His theory that we live in an alien simulation is a little too out there for me. I will admit that he has a point about a more probable outcome of the singularity. He posits that once we reach that point it becomes increasingly likely we will be required to merge with machines in order to survive in the new world.

But Hawking doesn't fear A.I. He fears how we use it. Like most people of intelligence, Hawking urges restraint, control and safety because the outcome of it's use is very difficult to predict. He recently talked about how he was optimistic for what amounts to a technological inspired evolutionary step forward for the human species. Here is what he has said about it:

The Big M.F. Cheese, Stephen Hawking wrote:

“The potential benefits of creating intelligence are huge,”
“We cannot predict what we might achieve when our own minds are amplified by AI. Perhaps with the tools of this new technological revolution, we will be able to undo some of the damage done to the natural world by the last one – industrialization. And surely we will aim to finally eradicate disease and poverty.
“Every aspect of our lives will be transformed. In short, success in creating AI could be the biggest event in the history of our civilization.”

You may or may not already know that both men as well as a whole bunch others petitioned/spoke to the UN to restrict the use of A.I. in weapons. What I call the 'Terminator Ban', is currently being discussed. This is exactly the kind of safe guard that Hawking is forever talking about because we need it. It's also sadly the exact thing that confuses people about A.I.
All people hear is that smart people talk about the dangers of new tech and forget that smart people said the same thing about the car they drive, the microwave they use and the milk they drink.
In the video above, which I didn't discuss because I have nothing good to say about it, the first reaction the narrator has for these amazing programs is how they can be used for ill. It's the same thing when you see the click bait articles/videos that proclaim 'Musk wants us all to fear A.I.' when that couldn't be further from the truth. They are excited about these new advancements. Heck, Elon Musk is considered a leader in the field of artificial intelligence. He just doesn't want to have that Oppenheimer/Einstein regret for releasing something horrible into the world. His self driving car tech could easily (well relatively easily) be adapted for HK robot weaponry. It makes perfect sense for someone who respects all life to be nervous about the use of his work in weapons.

But people don't think that far into things. We are generally a fearful and lazy creature so all we hear is 'Musk wants us to fear A.I.' and we start shaking in the dark.

Sorry, I didn't expect to go that far. Again, you probably knew most or all of what I said here but as this is an open forum maybe someone else didn't know some of these things.

Lothic wrote:

It's probably apt that you used Kudzu as an example of how potentially sentient machine technology could spread everywhere whether we like it or not.

Yeah that was my intent. I thought about using a cane toad or the northern snakehead example but Kudzu perfectly mirrored the speed and aggression that uncheck A.I. could have.
As a kind of 'did you know'. Kudzu has actually inspired a very ecological industry innovation. Because of how fast it grows and how resilient Kudzu is to chemicals or traditional gardening tools people began using goats to clean up infested areas. Now in many places there are gardening companies which use goats as a 'green' way to trim grass or hedges.
As Goldblum says 'Life, Uh, Finds a way'.