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Tertiaries

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Brand X
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Tertiaries

It's been said they would be weaker versions of other powers, my suggestion, in the area of attack powers, is not to make them to weak.

If CoT is going to be anything like CoH and looking to use the best attacks to get the best DPS, in CoH, that was never using (except for maybe one exception) any of the Epic Pool attacks.

That was just lame :p I want a reason to use those powers, besides just looking cool :) Which I'm not against mind you, but I'd like other reasons as well. Like looking cool and being optimal :)

Tannim222
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

It's been said they would be weaker versions of other powers, my suggestion, in the area of attack powers, is not to make them to weak.
If CoT is going to be anything like CoH and looking to use the best attacks to get the best DPS, in CoH, that was never using (except for maybe one exception) any of the Epic Pool attacks.
That was just lame :p I want a reason to use those powers, besides just looking cool :) Which I'm not against mind you, but I'd like other reasons as well. Like looking cool and being optimal :)

It creates too many situations for unbalanced design to not modify tertiaires.

There are enough power slots with almost 5 full Tettiary Sets applicable to them which can can allow builds to almost completely ignore their Primary and Secondary Sets - we’re talking 90% free-form builds. Because as of right now (barring any complications revealed through testing), there are no restrictions as to what Tertiary a character can access.

The number of possible combinations of mix-and-matched unmodified powers would be virtually impossible to ensure proper bounds of performance. Which also requires running simulations and actual play testing those various combinations of powers.

By modifying tettiaries we can limit the over all impact on performance to a sane degree ensuring that the archetypes work within their designed states.

Otherwise, Archetypes might well not exist. And I’m not willing to go down the free-form road other to say that themsifn reads “This doesn’t end well”.

The paet we do have to ensure is that Tertiaries are functional and not an comlplete waste of power picks even though they are modified. Why pick that tertiary tier 1 melee attack if it does nearly the same damage as your basic melee attack, and it uses power to activate and has a longer recharge...

That would be poor design. But you won’t find a tertiary tier 1 melee attack that is equal to an Enforcer teir 1 melee attack. Worse yet, if say a Guardian took that tertiary, it would be better than a Stalwart’s tier 1 melee attack from their Secondary.


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Radiac
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I think making the tertiaries

I think making the tertiaries severely underpowered from the beginning is fine. Players can probably slot the bejeezus out of them and get other buffs to make them playable. Power creep is a thing in games after all. So less immediate up-front powerfulness is probably good. Gives the min/maxers something to chew on.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Darth Fez
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My expectation is that the

My expectation is that the tertiary powers, even the attacks, are utilities to round out the build. A frustration I can remember well even now, especially for melee characters, is that of having an enemy run away with just a sliver of health. It got to the point that I'd sometimes ignore them and just move on, especially if I wasn't in a mission. A power that would have allowed me to shave off that last bit of health at range, or even just hold/slow them for a little bit, could have been awesome. For me that would definitely have been optimal.

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Pyromantic
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Well, every character is

Well, every character is supposed to receive a basic ranged attack and a basic melee attack at creation, so on that note at least you shouldn't have a problem.

Project_Hero
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I can understand both sides

I can understand both sides of this issue. And from a creative point of view it's sometimes difficult to decide on which powers would/should be weaker.

I guess we'll have to wait and see how it plays out and how buffed we can make them, maybe some kind of enhancement that weaken your main powers by a bit to pump up your tertiaries? Leveling out all your powers but granting you more utility, but I don't know how the numbers/mechanics would shape up with this or how broken folks could make it.

Pyromantic
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I suspect that would move too

I suspect that would move too far in the direction of free-form characters, as Tannim222 warned about earlier.

I don't have any problem with Tertiary powers being weaker, so long as they remain useful. I can certainly see wanting to get an additional damage power or two on an Operator, a ranged AoE on melee characters, a team buff/heal on a team-centric Stalwart, or what have you. But I believe one major tenet of the game is that your mechanical identity is determined first and foremost by your Archetype.

Cyclops
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MY plan is to use the

MY plan is to use the tertiary power, Atrophic Aura to give my hero a damage shield. It may not be as good as a secondary power but I do love making villains pay a price for hitting me.

and if I get into beta, I plan to experiment using Invulnerability on my ranger

Huckleberry
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Let's not forget that

Let's not forget that although they've said that tertiaries will be chosen from the secondaries and then scaled down a bit; I suspect there will also be special utility tertiary power set(s) that will not exist as secondaries. I refer here to things like stealth abilities.

On the other hand, there are already powers sets that affect the awareness of targets, such as Sensory Deprivation from Psychic Control, so I would not be surprised if there are powers we just don't know about yet that provide an awareness debuff field around the character (not unlike trick of light, but without the charm effect). If this is the case, then maybe there won't be separate utility tertiaries after all.

Potential Titans:
Trap Spider - the little spider rides a big robot
Thunderbird Priest - conduit of the Thunderbird spirit
Lovebot - programmed to love man, gives tough love to mankind
Schwarzchild - singularity-manipulating time traveller is lost

Project_Hero
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Super senses have been

Super senses have been confirmed as a tertiary I believe. So it's likely there'll be other utility sets.

Brand X
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My thought was only on the

My thought was only on the damage powers. I'm not saying make them as powerful as the most powerful melee attacks, but if a player can replace the lowest damage attack in their attack chain (so likely an ugly animation choice anyways :p) with a cool looking range attack and keep the DPS the same, it's good :)

I figure anything else, like additional protection will come out much weaker.

Lothic
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I think making the tertiaries severely underpowered from the beginning is fine. Players can probably slot the bejeezus out of them and get other buffs to make them playable. Power creep is a thing in games after all. So less immediate up-front powerfulness is probably good. Gives the min/maxers something to chew on.

I'd rather have the Tertiaries (or anything really) start off too weak and need to be bumped up a bit over time than to have them be proven to be too powerful and have them need nerfing.

The biggest problem when things like ED was imposed on CoH wasn't that it was -actually- imposed on CoH (because at the time it was desperately needed to help rebalance the game) but that too many people remembered the "good old days" when things were broken and didn't like to be forced to transition to the reduced power they had to live with. The more CoT can avoid the need for any serious nerfings the better off it'll be.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Project_Hero
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Not a comment on the power of

Not a comment on the power of tertiaries (which I'm in the start low buff up if needed camp) but I'd like to see a super hearing power.

So you'd add a chat channel called whisper which could only be heard by characters within close proximity (not to be confused with tells which would be secret to everyone but the recipient, unless you accidentally zone chat it.) But to those with super hearing they'd hear it like the /say channel (or whatever the local channel is called) they'd hear says like yells. (I think I'm using WoW terminology here) probably be able to toggle it as to not be annoyed in busy zones. Now this would be primarily for RP, but you could add some mechanical use for it too. Knowing if an NPC is lying (if there's chat options), gaining intel or leads from badguys, and I'm sure there's some more stuff there.

Just an idea I had.