team speak ... voice -over-internet

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Codyklous
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team speak ... voice -over-internet

It would be good to add this to the game i believe most ppl will agree. To be able to speak in the same team!!!!

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Do you mean integrated voice

Do you mean integrated voice chat? That is a real can of worms there. A lot of people do not like voice chat, or at very least voice chat with strangers. When it is a part of the system, they are under a lot of pressure to use it when they would rather not. I think it's better to leave the VOIP to 3rd party software.

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This has been the subject of

This has been the subject of several discussions, and for a variety of reasons (both social and technical), right now the result can be summed up as "Answer Unclear, Ask Again Later". It also isn't a strict yes/no question: things such as integration with external voice chat programs (in the same general sense that some games can integrate with music apps, for example) have been brought up as possible alternatives, and several of those simply aren't possible to evaluate without more detailed knowledge of the engine than we can get at until after the KS.



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boggo
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I have to say in every game I

I have to say in every game I've played with built in voice chat we've still used vent because the inbuilt ones invariably sucked

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Codyklous
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I mean it should be optional.

I mean it should be optional... If you want put it on or if not ...off!!! HALO has it...
I don't know about technical issues... I used to use Ven for CoH.
...

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Integrated voice chat a)

Integrated voice chat a) sucks valuable development time away from other areas, when there are perfectly good chat options already for people who want to use them and b) raises the expectation that voice chat will be used in game. Personally, I would tend to stay away from a game where it was generally expected that people would use voice chat.

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Me... I am *not* against a

Me... I am *not* against a voice chat client being integrated into the game in the slightest, although I do agree that, generally speaking, they have sucked in the past. It all depends if you are going to go entirely with roll your own, or use a prebuilt one and sliding that one in (like Vivox for example, which Eve Online uses, and although tricky, can be used)

And if it sucks, then most people will end up spending out real money to get one for their SG anyways.

But it would have to be a feature that can be enabled and disabled as need be.

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I found it difficult to

I found it difficult to handle typing in the midst of battle, though I managed, barely, sometimes with hilarious results. ;)
I have no problem with setting something up through Mumble or Skype, however.

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It would be great to have a

It would be great to have a in-game voice chat option. Having a means to talk to your team without having to stop play to type messages will be a great game changer. That's one of the things I like most about xbox. And with xbox you have the option to chat or not. I've play games on pc to that have in-game vioce chat and its nice. I would limit the chat option to having it linked to the players friends, team, sg lists. Having it in open world would be too much disruption and likly a large load on the servers. I wouldn't expect it to be running in-game right away either.

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If this game had the semi

If this game had the semi-limitless developmental resources of a typical corporate-based MMO then I probably wouldn't mind if they wanted to spend time and effort on an in-game voice chat capability.

But based on the fact that this is a fan-driven Kickstarter effort that's going to be hard enough to produce I'll have to completely DISAGREE with any suggestion for in-game voice chat to be added to this game, at least at launch if ever. As others have said in-game voice chat implementations are often badly handled and there are already plenty of third-party solutions (i.e. Skype, Ventrilo, etc.) out there to be used.

Bottomline I don't want the Devs of CoT to waste any of their precious time or effort "reinventing the wheel" on an in-game feature that can be better handled by current third party services.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Much like Lothic said, seems

Much like Lothic said, seems like a waste of money on the devs part, when many other areas are more important, especially considering there's 3rd party programs and some of us won't or can't use it.

I haven't used voice chat since my first year on CoH and haven't replaced my broken mic since then either.

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Don't waste time on in game

Don't waste time on in game voice chat. Just leave it up to the players to decide on a 3rd party program. My friends and SG mates all use Ventrilo. Lots of other people use TeamSpeak. Usually in game voice chat is cluttered with, pardon me here, idiots. I don't want to hear some 13 year old kid either bragging or whining. Nor do I want to hear some jerk off just being an ass. So I'm in the negative vote on this one as well.

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

Don't waste time on in game voice chat. Just leave it up to the players to decide on a 3rd party program. My friends and SG mates all use Ventrilo. Lots of other people use TeamSpeak. Usually in game voice chat is cluttered with, pardon me here, idiots. I don't want to hear some 13 year old kid either bragging or whining. Nor do I want to hear some jerk off just being an ass. So I'm in the negative vote on this one as well.

All depends as to how limited it will be. If it is only applicable for "team" scenarios, then I can see a better reason for integrating it.

I, like many others here, don't want to hear *everyone* in the zone talking.

I am not 100% certain, but I believe that you can integrate the same tech that Eve Voice has (hint: they use someone elses tech for it).

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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It should be optional. 3rd

It should be optional. 3rd party built in, either way. Many find it to be a cool feature. Many may never use it regardless if it's 3rd party or built in. Some would use a built in one but not third party, some will use 3rd party even if it was one built in. I say if they can do it, go for it. It's annoying having to download have dozen different 3rd party chat things because different people use different ones. At the same time, lot of the built in ones have been crappy.

And I do not think having it voice zone chat is wise. Of course there is always a mute button though. So maybe if there is a mute button, then voice zone chat shouldn't be taken off the table any more than other features that have "mute" or equivalent that is viewed as there with their "mute" function as a kill all solve all problem feature. :p

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I'm in the "no" column on

I'm in the "no" column on this one. Again, too few resources to bother trying to reinvent the wheel. Just use Ventrilo or TeamSpeak if you want that. I tried one of those once, there was massive background hiss for everyone else while I was connected, so I dropped out of it just to appease everyone whose VIOP experience I was ruining. I have new rig since then, but I wouldn't go out of my way to retry it anyway.

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It's often a financial boon

It's often a financial boon to partner with a 3rd party to offer THEIR services on your game.

Champions Online was able to generate revenue by teaming with Vivox.

I actually really hope MWM does offer a defacto voice chat service. Especially in a game where there will be no other voices (no voice acting etc) I don't want my environment to feel too sterile. Music will help (I've heard the samples and they sound amazing) but I will likely turn it off eventually.

I love action. I spend 80+ Percent of my time in any game in combat. I am also in character 90 percent of the time online. I need voice-chat to RP successfully because typing is often not an option. I need the people I play with to be able to hear my voice chat (and voice changer) client.

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Vivox! That is who CCP use to

Vivox! That is who CCP use to supply Eve Voice with (or at least, they used to...)

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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First of all guys, don't try

First of all guys, don't try and make calls only the devs should be making. I refer to 'it's too time consuming'. People, WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT REALLY TAKES TIME AND WHAT DOESN'T. We're not game designers. People kept screaming about precious development time on macs, but the devs told us Unity does it automatically, they just needed machines to test the builds on. If we want something and devs know it will take more development time and resources than it's worth, they will say so. They're reliable and practical that way. Stick to discussing the pros and cons of the feature, let the devs tell us if it's too difficult or not. It's a waste of our time and theirs (they read these) trying to decide for them if it's time consuming.

So, practicing what I just preached, I'm all for a team chat option. Yes, I have skype. But a game chat isn't personal, and adding someone to my personal contacts list so they can talk to me is. In a random team, I still want to be able to talk rather than type sometimes. It's more convenient in a lot of ways. But I DON'T want to give them the necessary information to call me up outside of the game, and that is the problem I see with third party software. They work great, yeah, but if you're not good friends, you're not gonna want to go there. And what if two people on a team are friends in that way and a third isn't? I've been there, on both sides: part of the team is voice chatting and part isn't. So the team is split. Have an in-game option that everyone can participate in. Partnering with a third party software may well be a good approach to make it work. That's what I'd like to see.

I don't think it will really create that kind of pressure. I've played games with in game chat and seen no such thing. Of course, that may have been because everybody thought they didn't work very well....

An interesting option that might make this more generally appealing would be to be able to choose which players you can hear, or can hear you. If you could check in and outgoing next to each team member, all kinds of configurations become possible, that may eliminate many objections. I envision, for instance, a 'tactical' configuration where the team leader can hear everybody and everybody hears the team leader. For coordination.

Zone voice chat, I'm more ambiguous about.

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I'm intrigued by the idea,

I'm intrigued by the idea, but I only used voice chat (team speak) when I first started COH, and then only with a group of people I know personally. I'm not sure I would use voice chat with a PUG.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

First of all guys, don't try and make calls only the devs should be making. I refer to 'it's too time consuming'. People, WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT REALLY TAKES TIME AND WHAT DOESN'T. We're not game designers. ... Stick to discussing the pros and cons of the feature, let the devs tell us if it's too difficult or not. It's a waste of our time and theirs (they read these) trying to decide for them if it's time consuming.

You're right; most of us don't have any real world "game" development experience. Not for nothing I'll just mention that I've been a software engineer for 20 years. Despite my wealth of tangential experience I've never really done any professional "game" development so you can take what I'm about to say on the matter for what you will.

The facts are indisputable: No matter how easy or hard it'd be to incorporate an in-game voice chat feature into CoT it would take more time and effort than NOT doing it. Period. Even trying to partner up with a voice chat provider (like Vivox) may take more time and contractual obligations than is justified before launch. I don't want MWM to have to pay another huge licensing fee to something like Vivox when they don't have to. Those are precious resources that could be spent on things that CAN'T be adequately handled by third party solutions.

Unlike in-game GUIs, costume design or combat mechanics there are many different existing third party solutions for voice chat. Why "reinvent the wheel" for voice chat? Until someone can argue why an in-game voice chat feature is overwhelmingly needed above and beyond anything a current third party provider can provide today then I think it's obvious how the Devs of CoT should handle this matter for the time being.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic some flaws in your

Lothic some flaws in your argument

- "May" and "Will" are not the same.
- Pay another huge fee? We do not know the terms of any 3rd party software and I've already cited that it can be a revenue generator, not cost.
- "Reinvent the wheel"? by using a third party software?

Anytime someone uses the dev resources argument without being the producer I simply remind them that it truly IS the producer's call. We heard that the studio saved money for holiday buying. I'm willing to hear peoples' ideas for what other softwares this money should be used for.

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Lothic
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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Lothic some flaws in your argument

When you find some here I'll be happy to hear about them.

JayBezz wrote:

"May" and "Will" are not the same.

In this context adding voice chat in any form WILL (not "may") require extra Dev effort that I (and apparently many others in this thread) do not believe would be the best use of their resources. I'll ask the question once again: What incredibly overwhelming reason is there for CoT to provide in-game voice chat in any form when there are many workable third party solutions already? Frankly I don't want MWM to waste any of their limited resources on anything that they don't have to.

JayBezz wrote:

Pay another huge fee? We do not know the terms of any 3rd party software and I've already cited that it can be a revenue generator, not cost.

You've made this "revenue generator" claim without any references to prove it. Why would a company like Vivox pay MWM for providing their service to them? If anything MWM would have to pay Vivox - that's a revenue drain from MWM. I'm quite sure a company like Vivox is not in business to give away their services for free.

And if for some reason you're trying to make the implication that having in-game voice chat in CoT would be a primary motivator for why anyone would play CoT in the first place I think YOUR reasoning on that is flawed. Trust me, the question of whether or not CoT has integrated voice chat is NOT going to be the deciding factor that'll drive people either towards or away from this game.

JayBezz wrote:

"Reinvent the wheel"? by using a third party software?

There have been games which have attempted to develop their own voice chat solutions, thus the phrase "reinventing the wheel". Obviously that would be a very silly approach for CoT to take. But even if they take the slightly less silly approach (by contracting with an existing third party voice chat provider) they would still have to integrate and support its usage in CoT. Anyway you cut it if they try to incorporate voice chat directly into the game it WILL (not "may") require extra Dev time and effort that could be spent in other ways.

JayBezz wrote:

Anytime someone uses the dev resources argument without being the producer I simply remind them that it truly IS the producer's call. We heard that the studio saved money for holiday buying. I'm willing to hear peoples' ideas for what other softwares this money should be used for.

I'd rather MWM uses its money for its own internal development and/or to buy software applications it needs where there are no other alternatives to accomplish its goal of creating CoT. Third party voice chat ALREADY EXISTS - CoT does not need to waste one penny or one second "providing" that capability to you. Unless your suggestions for voice chat can beat that extreme level of savings I think you might want to rethink your insistence on this.

Ultimately you're right that it is the "producer's call" on this. When they see they can either choose to spend ZERO time and effort on something they don't have to (because it already exists) versus spending extra time, effort and/or money on something that does absolutely nothing uniquely positive for their game I have the upmost confidence they'll make the sensible decision on this.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

You've made this "revenue generator" claim without any references to prove it. Why would a company like Vivox pay MWM for providing their service to them? If anything MWM would have to pay Vivox - that's a revenue drain from MWM. I'm quite sure a company like Vivox is not in business to give away their services for free.

I attempted to find the Press Release by Champions Online citing they were generating ad revenue by using vivox and have yet come up short. If someone has this release help is appreciated. The closest I found was this by Vivox' website.

http://www.vivox.com/voiceeverywhere/monetization.html

Vivox Website wrote:

Vivox Audio Ads provide you with the opportunity to monetize all users who take advantage of your Voice integration. Audio Ads are quick clips that are strategically placed so that game play is not interrupted. Best of all you control the frequency that the ads are played!

To get the service started we will reach out to a range of well-suited advertisers -- including ad networks -- and build and manage the related ad inventory. There are many benefits to running Audio Ads. Just to name a few, Audio Ads:

* Offer an incremental and recurring revenue stream.
* Serve as another in-world venue to market and sell to your user base
* Make it possible for you to engage your users in conversation
* Provide ability to cross-promote your services and/or products
* Let third party brands "talk" to your users at a premium

Most importantly, you'll tell us which Audio Ads you want to run and when and we'll execute accordingly.

Lothic wrote:

And if for some reason you're trying to make the implication that having in-game voice chat in CoT would be a primary motivator for why anyone would play CoT in the first place I think YOUR reasoning on that is flawed. Trust me, the question of whether or not CoT has integrated voice chat is NOT going to be the deciding factor that'll drive people either towards or away from this game.

I have not (yet) made that claim.

I am simply saying that having a universal VOIP is a (not the) deciding factor for my ability to roleplay. My ability to role play is also a (not the) factor in my continued support of a online combat roleplaying product.

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Lothic
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JayBezz]<blockquote class=
JayBezz wrote:

Lothic wrote:
You've made this "revenue generator" claim without any references to prove it. Why would a company like Vivox pay MWM for providing their service to them? If anything MWM would have to pay Vivox - that's a revenue drain from MWM. I'm quite sure a company like Vivox is not in business to give away their services for free.

I attempted to find the Press Release by Champions Online citing they were generating ad revenue by using vivox and have yet come up short. If someone has this release help is appreciated. The closest I found was this by Vivox' website.
http://www.vivox.com/voiceeverywhere/monetization.html
Vivox Website wrote:
Vivox Audio Ads provide you with the opportunity to monetize all users who take advantage of your Voice integration. Audio Ads are quick clips that are strategically placed so that game play is not interrupted. Best of all you control the frequency that the ads are played!
To get the service started we will reach out to a range of well-suited advertisers -- including ad networks -- and build and manage the related ad inventory. There are many benefits to running Audio Ads. Just to name a few, Audio Ads:
* Offer an incremental and recurring revenue stream.
* Serve as another in-world venue to market and sell to your user base
* Make it possible for you to engage your users in conversation
* Provide ability to cross-promote your services and/or products
* Let third party brands "talk" to your users at a premium
Most importantly, you'll tell us which Audio Ads you want to run and when and we'll execute accordingly.

So a company like Vivox would provide their voice chat service to CoT in exchange for spamming us with random audio ads? Sure that might provide money to Vivox and whoever else they run ads for, but unless CoT runs ads for itself MWM isn't going to make a dime off of this.

I easily suspect many people would consider the obvious "con" of getting bombarded with audio spam while playing far outweighing any "pro" of having in-game voice chat. Many (if not most) people who still wanted voice chat would quickly abandon the in-game version in favor of easy to use (and far less annoying) third party solutions.

Basically the only justification for MWM to even consider providing in-game voice chat versus allowing players to use their own third party solutions should be that it somehow costs them practically ZERO time and effort to provide a nearly perfect service that virtually everyone will use. If your answer to that is something like Vivox where MWM would have to waste effort integrating a feature that would spam us with god-knows how many random audio ads I'd say your suggestion fails that test in multiple ways.

A significant percentage of the playerbase (both in CoH and CoT) has historically stood against using voice chat of ANY kind. I don't think you'll win them over with a version of it that would burn their ears with random and unavoidable advertisement chatter. *shrugs*

JayBezz wrote:

Lothic wrote:
And if for some reason you're trying to make the implication that having in-game voice chat in CoT would be a primary motivator for why anyone would play CoT in the first place I think YOUR reasoning on that is flawed. Trust me, the question of whether or not CoT has integrated voice chat is NOT going to be the deciding factor that'll drive people either towards or away from this game.

I have not (yet) made that claim.
I am simply saying that having a universal VOIP is a (not the) deciding factor for my ability to roleplay. My ability to role play is also a (not the) factor in my continued support of a online combat roleplaying product.

And again I'll simply point out that if voice-based RP is that important to you it can easily be accomplished via existing third party voice chat services, many of which can be had either for free and/or without annoying audio ads.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Vivox sells advertisement

Vivox sells advertisement exposure to generate revenue and shares that revenue with the customer base. I don't know if it can be explained any more succinctly. I do not understand your suspicion.

- -

Being "bombarded" with ad spam. The frequency and timing of the advertisements are set by the client (MWM in this case). If there are enough players, the ad frequency may be low enough that you never need hear it but once a log-in (if that). Once the number of impressions is reached to pay for the service, it's paid for itself. Any additional is revenue.

- -

Vivox offers its OWN 24/7 support and requires NO support from MWM or City of Titans developers should they choose it.

- -

By the subtext of your argument I feel you're making the case that voice chat is bad for the game and not good for the game. IF this is your not your intent then I welcome you to review your arguement. If something comes at a Zero sum cost of resources why is it still a bad idea? This logic is where I understand your intent to say that VOIP is not good for the game.

If this IS your intent then we simply disagree as I think having the option of voice chat to be GOOD for the game. I also find that generating revenue is GOOD for the game.

I hope to have "won" the dev resources argument but if anything worth debating was ever "won" we wouldn't have disagreements. However, if your main concern is actually that of dev resources then I think this has been properly addressed. If your concern stems from elsewhere then I welcome listening to these concerns.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Vivox sells advertisement exposure to generate revenue and shares that revenue with the customer base. I don't know if it can be explained any more succinctly. I do not understand your suspicion.

Again based on the historical attitudes of people who played CoH (and who will likely play CoT) in-game voice chat was never something that an overwhelming number of people supported. Those who did want it used the many third party solutions available to them.

If a company like Vivox actually shares its revenue with its client base (instead of the far more likely scenario of simply providing its services to games like CoT for free in exchange for ad-spamming) then I highly suspect that the overall number of players who will use the ad-riddled service will not generate anywhere near the amount of income you imply it will.

JayBezz wrote:

Being "bombarded" with ad spam. The frequency and timing of the advertisements are set by the client (MWM in this case). If there are enough players, the ad frequency may be low enough that you never need hear it but once a log-in (if that). Once the number of impressions is reached to pay for the service, it's paid for itself. Any additional is revenue.

This is the big $64,000 question here - will there be enough players willing to use an ad-based in-game voice chat service? Frankly I think it would be a minor-miracle if something like this ever managed to "pay for itself" the way you envision.

JayBezz wrote:

Vivox offers its OWN 24/7 support and requires NO support from MWM or City of Titans developers should they choose it.

Once again you keep forgetting that no matter how easy it might be for MWM to incorporate something like Vivox into CoT they would still have to waste SOME amount of time and effort shoehorning it in. With all the third party options out there which would cost MWM absolutely ZERO time and effort you are never going to win this particular economic facet of the argument.

JayBezz wrote:

By the subtext of your argument I feel you're making the case that voice chat is bad for the game and not good for the game. IF this is your not your intent then I welcome you to review your arguement. If something comes at a Zero sum cost of resources why is it still a bad idea? This logic is where I understand your intent to say that VOIP is not good for the game.

I make no absolute judgments about whether or not voice chat is either "good" or "bad" for a game in general. But I am willing to debate with anyone the merits of whether or not having "in-game" voice chat is worth the Devs' time and effort to provide. You simply leave me unconvinced that an in-game feature (of any form) is significantly better or cheaper than current third-party solutions. The cons easily outweigh the pros.

JayBezz wrote:

If this IS your intent then we simply disagree as I think having the option of voice chat to be GOOD for the game. I also find that generating revenue is GOOD for the game.

If voice chat is somehow quantitatively deemed to be "GOOD" for the game then third party providers can provide it. And as implied I don't see the questionable "revenue generation" aspects of your argument outweighing the obvious negative downsides.

JayBezz wrote:

I hope to have "won" the dev resources argument but if anything worth debating was ever "won" we wouldn't have disagreements. However, if your main concern is actually that of dev resources then I think this has been properly addressed. If your concern stems from elsewhere then I welcome listening to these concerns.

I think it's clear you have not "won" or "addressed" the question of wasting Dev resources despite your arbitrary hand-waving that you have.

But if you want yet ANOTHER reason why in-game voice chat is not the best solution then explain to me how adding yet additional audio message traffic on the game servers is supposed to be beneficial to anyone? Even if I (as a player) choose not to use a provided in-game voice chat service I'm still going to have to be suffering from the overall additional lag-causing bandwidth usage of other players around me who may be using it. If you want to use a voice chat service you are free to use any third party service that you want that will not impact MY enjoyment of MY game. If I'm not going to use the in-game voice chat why should MY game experience suffer for it?

One more time you're asking for Devs to waste time, effort and money to become entangled in a questionable voice chat provider service who will happily SPAMMMM us with annoying ads all while potentially saddling us with a MORE-LAGGY game experience than a third party voice chat provider would impose. If in-game voice chat only had one or two disadvantages I might be more sympathetic to your position. But with it's obvious multiple problems it remains clear to me what the Devs should do... or in this case not do.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Ok. I have not provided

Ok. I have not provided enough anecdotal evidence ton convince you. But by the denotation of the words in your argument it seems you are beyond convincing. I will be moving forward from the dev resources argument unless there's a new line of questions.

Conversely, you've brought up a new argument of server latency. I do not know the server setup but it is very likely that Vivox will use their own servers as they offer their own support. The option to toggle this option on and off is apparent in other games so if you do not want to be affected then you do not need to be. If a player's internet bandwidth cannot sustain use of the chosen in-game chat then they likely can't use the out of game chat either. The non-chat-users are not directly effected in either scenario.

What you see as SPAMMMM I see as cross promotion. Marketing products to the geek/mmo base has shown to be extremely effective when the products are in the same niche. Indie comic book publishers, cosplay designers, etc. Some ads I would mind hearing, some I wouldn't. But they're relatively short and not that invasive to me.. but it is a factor and one worth debating. But as a player with seemingly zero interest in using the feature you would never hear the SPAMMM*. The opinions of those who would actually be interested in using a voice chat seem more weighted as they would be the affected parties. They may share your reticence to advertisements, they may not.

* I missed an M

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Ok. I have not provided enough anecdotal evidence ton convince you. But by the denotation of the words in your argument it seems you are beyond convincing. I will be moving forward from the dev resources argument unless there's a new line of questions.

So since you can't convince me this wouldn't be a relative waste of Dev resources you've unilaterally decided to "move forward" on the Dev resources argument. I suppose if you can't win an argument it does make sense to stop taking about it. *shrugs*

JayBezz wrote:

Conversely, you've brought up a new argument of server latency.

For what it’s worth server latency vis-a-vis voice chat was a well established concern raised against CoH in-game voice chat for years. It's hardly a "new" argument in this context.

JayBezz wrote:

I do not know the server setup but it is very likely that Vivox will use their own servers as they offer their own support. The option to toggle this option on and off is apparent in other games so if you do not want to be affected then you do not need to be. If a player's internet bandwidth cannot sustain use of the chosen in-game chat then they likely can't use the out of game chat either. The non-chat-users are not directly effected in either scenario.

If Vivox uses its "own servers" (as you put it) to support voice chat then how would that be fundamentally different than the generic "third party voice chat" that already exists today? If what Vivox offers is effectively NOT "in-game" voice chat in the traditional sense then why on Earth would anyone put up with its ad-spamming (at any level) when you could easily have a free, non-spamming alternative?

The pretense of having in-game voice chat in the first place is that it's presumably easier for the average player to utilize. But if you're telling me that Vivox maintains voice chat messages on its own servers (as opposed to the game's servers) then I would gladly trade up to an established leader in voice chat (like Skype, Ventrillo, Teamspeak, etc.) than settle for some opportunistic ad-spammer.

JayBezz wrote:

What you see as SPAMMMM I see as cross promotion. Marketing products to the geek/mmo base has shown to be extremely effective when the products are in the same niche. Indie comic book publishers, cosplay designers, etc. Some ads I would mind hearing, some I wouldn't. But they're relatively short and not that invasive to me.. but it is a factor and one worth debating. But as a player with seemingly zero interest in using the feature you would never hear the SPAMMM*. The opinions of those who would actually be interested in using a voice chat seem more weighted as they would be the affected parties.

If we lived in a world where the only way we could have voice chat in a game like CoT would be to accept an integrated service provider that spammed ads then I probably would concede the point. But when I know there are many currently available superior alternatives out there that do not subject their users to spam then I have absolutely no reason to accept it as a reasonable option.

To the question "Would I personally be interested in using voice chat while playing CoT?" I can easily answer that if I do use voice chat will be via a service that has no ad-spamming regardless if there's an "in-game" Vivox-like option for it or not. I already plan to freely give MWM plenty of subscription and microtransaction moneys so if I happen to deny them my participation in any additional "ad-spam-revenue" scheme I'll have to live with that.

JayBezz wrote:

They may share your reticence to advertisements, they may not.

If CoH players' general reaction to the subject of "real world advertisements as in-game city posters" back in CoH was any indicator there's going to be a significantly large percentage of the playerbase of CoT which'll be "reticent" to any form of in-game advertisement, including I suspect audio ads.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

If CoH players' general reaction to the subject of "real world advertisements as in-game city posters" back in CoH was any indicator there's going to be a significantly large percentage of the playerbase of CoT which'll be "reticent" to any form of in-game advertisement, including I suspect audio ads.

Which then also basically kills the idea of real world companies "sponsering" stuff in game as well (the idea has been thrown about in the past).

One thing I would like to say though, is that although Vivox might well have an ad based version (who knows, I personally have never heard this), they *DO* however make it easy to integrate with the Unreal Engine (and others on top).

Doing a quick search, Star Trek Online apparently uses vivox, and its the "non subscribers" who get the ad's. Cough up cash, no ads.

Seeing as I haven't played STO, I cannot say how often the ad gets played. It might well just be *once* a "connection" session when you team up/enable it.

Oh, and in Eve Online... There are NO ads from Vivox when you use Eve Voice.

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I have to agree with Lothic

I have to agree with Lothic on EVERY point he, or she, has made. I'd happily use Ventrilo over some in-game voice chat option that came with advertisement. I HATE advertisements injected into my experience. This is why I DVR tv shows, watch movies, or subscribe to MMO's. I loathe all the crap advertisement that comes with "Free stuff" that I'm forced to watch or listen to. I sincerely hope the Devs do not waste any precious time on trying to integrate in-game voice chat. Such has been mentioned before, there are plenty of third-party programs that people can use for the same effect.

Longest 10 seconds of your life.............."After 10 seconds you can skip this ad."

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So if subscribers got it

So if subscribers got it "without ads", and "F2Pers" got it when they started voice comms (once per session), would that satisfy you?

What if there were NO ads for *any* of the players who use it?

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
Ok. I have not provided enough anecdotal evidence ton convince you. But by the denotation of the words in your argument it seems you are beyond convincing. I will be moving forward from the dev resources argument unless there's a new line of questions.
So since you can't convince me this wouldn't be a relative waste of Dev resources you've unilaterally decided to "move forward" on the Dev resources argument. I suppose if you can't win an argument it does make sense to stop taking about it. *shrugs*

I believe in constructive argument. I've posted my position on the matter, posted my arguments to support and defend that position and posted citation of information to support my arguments. You've posted your rebuttals. Unless there is further evidence to deliberate on the issue or "dev resources" then the point has been conclusively argued. I consider the matter closed and my case rested. The decision will be made and hopefully the deciders will look fairly at the arguments made.

I have no interest in restating my argument for the sake of arguing.

- -

How does your personal ISP's performance factor into the latency of a product? I'm asking for technical elaboration because as of yet I do not see the causation to give fault to any service made available.

- -

Evidence of what the CoH player-base will or wont do is at best a tertiary argument. We are not talking about City of Heroes and there's no evidence that the audience of City of Titans will either be the same or have the same views as they did in between 2003 and 2010, today.

Having lost the ability to play their game entirely due to a lack of revenue, they may be more receptive to a studio choosing multiple streams of revenue to avoid a similar fate.

- -

Lothic wrote:

If Vivox uses its "own servers" (as you put it) to support voice chat then how would that be fundamentally different than the generic "third party voice chat" that already exists today?

If CoT offers an official vehicle for voice chat then I need not worry about the offline inconvenience, I am guarunteed to be able to speak to other CoT players using CoT voice chat, I can PUG conveniently and meet other Voice users easily.

If CoT does not offer an official vehicle they ask me to coordinate those on an individual basis and I must also then ask in-game (OOC biensure) for other players information and the entire process is not as socially rewarding, easy.

- -

Finally you bring the quality of the voice product into question against "Skype, Ventrillo, Teamspeak, etc.". I am working from the assumption you are talking about Vivox (if not please cite the products whose quality are in question). I gather from your argument that you have not tried the Vivox product. This being the case you have no basis on which to question the quality of the product. You are actually debating the "popularity" of the product. I submit that product popularity has very little relevance in this arena.

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If we must have an official

If we must have an official voice-thing, then let's make sure that it is not hosted on the same servers as the game.

Being hearing-impaired, I get nothing from voice-programs. It's gotten so that I Deny the existence of my microphone. I've been booted from teams because I'm not using... whatevertheheck voice program the team leader considers essential. I cannot LISTEN and do anything else at the same time. You normal-hearing bas... er, sorry, People have no conception of how Hard it is to understand the gobble-gobble you think is language. Add mumbling, eating, drinking, and hardware issues and I just don't love you guys enough to suffer through it.

So, let me get on with Playing and leave the chit-chat behind.

Be Well!
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I barely handle "Heal me!!"

I barely handle "Heal me!!" when it is typed. Not sure what I would do if someone decided to chime in with that over a voice chat.

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No.. just no.

No.. just no.

7 year CoX vet. and despite graphics still thinks it's the most beautiful MMO.

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Are people coming from an

Are people coming from an assumption that the voice chat would not be optional?

I am seeing a disconnect. This is one of those "use it if you want to" features. In every game I've seen that offers it the users/players have the option of turning it off.

If you do not want voice chat for yourself, then it will not be forced on you and is often disabled in the default settings.

Codyklous wrote:

team speak ... voice -over-internet
It would be good to add this to the game i believe most ppl will agree. To be able to speak in the same team!!!!

Cheers!!!!

You're likely as surprised as me.

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No, we are trying to say it's

No, we are trying to say it's a waste of time and effort when there are third party chat programs that are just as easily downloaded and usable. Devs have limited time and resources as it is, why bog them down with extra? I'd rather just get a working game out than try to shoehorn in more product that is unnecessary.

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

No, we are trying to say it's a waste of time and effort when there are third party chat programs that are just as easily downloaded and usable. Devs have limited time and resources as it is, why bog them down with extra? I'd rather just get a working game out than try to shoehorn in more product that is unnecessary.

*looks at press releases*

Well, looks like it is already integrated into Unreal Engine 3...

UE3 now with Voice chat

So, it would take too long to integrate?

Its already built into the engine.

Next please

And yes, this is the same game engine as MWM are using.

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1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

No, we are trying to say it's a waste of time and effort when there are third party chat programs that are just as easily downloaded and usable. Devs have limited time and resources as it is, why bog them down with extra? I'd rather just get a working game out than try to shoehorn in more product that is unnecessary.

I appreciate that you consider voice chat as a positive addition by calling it an "extra". I've stated my position on the dev resources arguement so I'll address the other items in your post.

- What qualifies it as a waste of time?
- I can't speak for all platforms but Vivox specifically is great with Unreal3 engine integration. So I don't agree with the assessment that it would be a "shoehorned" solutiuon.
- The conversation of development priorities and schedule is different than the conversation of whether the feature should exist.

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I was unaware that it was

I was unaware that it was already included in the Unreal Engine, if that is the case then this is a moot argument as it will already be included regardless.

As far as addressing:

What qualifies it as a waste of time? The fact that there are already chat options available that have been programmed by somebody else and can be downloaded and used just as easily as trying to put a chat program into a game that doesn't have one. That would be a waste of time when Devs are trying to do other things such as develop costumes, power sets, animations, buildings, etc. Time spent working on something else is time taken away from something.

As far as "Shoehorning" it in is concerned I was merely stating that it would be added space and programming to the game that would add more time for Devs to have to code in. Also if something were to go wrong and need to be fixed even more resources used up to correct the issue and find out what line in the code was not working with the program.

As far as priorities and existing goes, I understand that completely. While I understand that there are people that may want it put in, maybe at a later date, why? I'm sure that if people have to wait for it to be put in they will just download a third-party chat option like Ventrilo, Team Speak, Skype, or whatever chat program they deem appropriate to them. Once that is done, why would they then want another Chat program thrown in later if they've already become used to the one they downloaded and started using?

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The sheer lack of

The sheer lack of constructive argument going down here since I last posted is staggering...I'm not including you Jaybezz, I'm sympathizing with your near solo efforts (Gangrel is always practical).

Whether or not it is resource intensive is simply an irrelevant argument here. The only purpose of US discussing it is to give the devs an idea of the degree to which we do, or do not, WANT the feature. How much we want it, determines how much effort it is worth - if not many do, it's not worth getting in at launch at all. So there is no point in even bringing up resources. How the hell did my pointing this out spawn ten or fifteen lengthy posts debating resources?

The degree to which the feature is a waste of time is directly proportional to how much it is wanted. Several have said they don't. Some have said they do. Voice chat is ALWAYS an optional feature, as Jaybezz pointed out. Including the option won't force anyone to do anything. So just tell us if you would use it at all, so the devs can get an idea of the overall demand (or lack thereof). But for God's sake don't talk like the fact that YOU don't want it proves it's worthless.

Finally - no one arguing that we can just use external third party software has acknowledged by point against them (as opposed to third party software integrated, like the vivox deal). In order to use those, you have to exchange contact information - outside of the game. Enabling contact outside of hte game. An in-game chat - third party or otherwise - allows you to chat with PUG's if you want. Otherwise, you can't. Unless you're crazy.

--------------------------

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

I was unaware that it was already included in the Unreal Engine, if that is the case then this is a moot argument as it will already be included regardless.

A concession to your position, it would still require integration development from our developers.

oOStaticOo wrote:

As far as addressing:
What qualifies it as a waste of time? The fact that there are already chat options available that have been programmed by somebody else and can be downloaded and used just as easily as trying to put a chat program into a game that doesn't have one. That would be a waste of time when Devs are trying to do other things such as develop costumes, power sets, animations, buildings, etc. Time spent working on something else is time taken away from something.

If there is no centralized option I cannot use my Skype to speak to your Vent and so forth. I cannot use it with people I meet in game who ARE using the same 3rd party as I am without asking them (strangers) to share their virtual handle. My offline security may be compromised by trying to do so.

There is benefit to having a centralized, in-game voice chat. I find the benefit to be very valuable. Others do not.

oOStaticOo wrote:

As far as "Shoehorning" it in is concerned I was merely stating that it would be added space and programming to the game that would add more time for Devs to have to code in. Also if something were to go wrong and need to be fixed even more resources used up to correct the issue and find out what line in the code was not working with the program.

I am only speaking to Vivox's solution right now, but they offer their own support 24/7 for both developers and users. I do not know if this is included in the cost.

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The fact that the engine has

The fact that the engine has it already *doesn't* mean that the feature would be enabled automatically.

That is something that would need doing, along with an in game interface as well.

For me, I am two groups for this:

1) For PUGS, I prefer using the *ingame* version of a chat over "out of game" versions. I don't have to wait for the player to download the software, I don't have to give out MY server details either. If the server is just for friends, then I would rather keep it that way.

2) For Guilds/SG's: I prefer the "Out of Game" version. I don't need to have the game running to get in touch with people or just to natter. Definite bonus, especially if you are in a Guild or SG that is "cross games" (I know people who have a large skype call setup for just this reason... although I do still wonder why they don't necessarily all chip in for a voice comms server to get better quality.. although the normal text based messaging facility is also an advantage in this case, especially as it logs everything for you)

Side note: Here is a list of the "more popular" VOIP chat programs:

Skype
Ventrillo
Teamspeak 2
Teamspeak 3
Mumble
Steam
Razer Comms
RaidCall

Teamspeak is listed twice, because the version 2 clients cannot speak on version 3 servers and version 3 clients cannot talk on version 2 servers.

Those are the ones just off the top of my head.. there are others as well. They all have pros and cons, they all have various niggles with each other. Some are more basic than others.

It is worth noting that some of these are multi-platform, others are not. And as CoT is aiming to have a Mac client available for release... well, if it can be integrated then I think it should be.

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Personally I'd rather only

Personally I'd rather only talk to my friends and SG mates. I can type whatever I want to say to some random PUG group. I don't really have any desire to talk to them. So put me in the category of I'd rather not have In-Game Voice Chat upon launch. Later if the Devs want to add it in for kicks and giggles then fine, that's completely up to them at their disposal.

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Shadow Elusive, thank you for

Shadow Elusive, thank you for reminding me of the greatest purpose of the thread. What functions would I like to see in a voice chat feature?

Primary:
I want the ability to have a SG Channel and Team Channel as pre-made default channels
I want the ability to have a private channel that I can use for any select group (like a group of friends' channel)

Secondary:
I want the ability to have "instance" channels. For any mission that has more than one team (raids as they're known) I want to communicate with the entire group. If there are "factions" like heroes/villains I'd like the ability to have one perticular "side" of the instance to be able to talk without the knowledge of the opposing "side(s)".

Great to haves:
I want the ability to have a proximity chat channel. Characters within a given proximity to mine to be able to talk with my avatar (with varying volume by distance). I tend not to roleplay as I hate needing to try to give subtext in text. It's just to difficult to be understood. Jokes aren't as funny, etc. I would likely spend more time doing the "Stand around and talk" rolplay instead of my "talk while we fight" roleplay if this was a feature. In other games I've voice role-played, it's been a really awesome feature that keeps me coming back. The lore was almost ALWAYS fantasy tho and it's not a character I particularly enjoy. I look forward to being able to voice chat in a modern setting.

Not needed:
Having a channel where you can hear only your people on your in-game friend list is impractical.
It is also impractical to have two chat channels running at the same time. When I played Champions Online their execution, per their standard, lacked severely and there were many bugs with the voice chat feature, including the voice chat taking over the text box upon multiple uses and multiple channels being open at once and voice channels not closing upon leaving team. This was due to the incompetence of the developers, not the vivox feature itself.

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Quote:
Quote:

It is also impractical to have two chat channels running at the same time. When I played Champions Online their execution, per their standard, lacked severely and there were many bugs with the voice chat feature, including the voice chat taking over the text box upon multiple uses and multiple channels being open at once and voice channels not closing upon leaving team. This was due to the incompetence of the developers, not the vivox feature itself.

I am trying to remember how it was done in Eve Online (they also use Vivox), but I believe that although you could be a *member* of several voice chat channels, you would have to nominate which one you were "active" in (so effectively turn it on).

Eve Online forums wrote:

Multi-Channel:
You can listen to multiple channels at once and talk on one at a time. This is perfect for fleet-op organization, keeping in touch with conversation with friends while on an ops, etc.

How-to Use:
There is no longer a "Join Voice" option on a channel. This has been replaced by two new options labeled "Join Audio" and "Make Speaking Channel."

You must first "Join Audio" on a channel. This puts you into a listen only mode so you can hear the activity on that channel. You can then "Make Speaking Channel" which allows you to speak in that channel.

You can "Join Audio in multiple channels however you can only "Make Speaking Channel" on one at a time.

- Joining a fleet/gang - Whenever you join a fleet or a gang you are now automatically connected to the audio channel associated with that gang. You must right click the channel and "Make Speaking Channel" for you to talk in that channel.

That is how it is done over there, or at least how it *was* done when I was still playing the game. And it shows that if you were in multiple channels listening in, you could only talk on one of them...

Now this is also on top of the Vent/Teamspeak 2/Teamspeak 3/Mumble servers (and also API approval checks if they were used) so that at least with *casual* fleets (ie non corp/alliance ran), If voice was used (particularly for incursion activities because the co-ordination required made it FAR easier with voice, although there was also someone who typed everything into chat if there were those hard of hearing... it was never the person TALKING though), Eve Voice was the "go to" option.

Considering the reputation of Eve Online being a hell hole of scum and villany, i tended to find that on the whole they were actually nice people (from those who I have met, and teamed with... rarely had any problems with those I teamed).

I had more problems in other MMO's where you have 3/4 of the team on voice chat and are refusing to use ingame tools (such as using tags on mobs, or even typing into chat), which made that experience a whole lot worse for me.

Tis a roundabouts problem here.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

JayBezz
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Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
Additionally:

Additionally:
When a player is on my ignore list, I would LIKE this to carry over to the voice feature. I've been in quite a few PUGs where ignored players get through and I'm like "I ignored them for a reason"

Crowd Control Enthusiast