I played CoH faithfully for what? 6 years?
The reason I quit the game (almost a full year before they shut down) was because of end-game customization. Content is fine. Give us some more places to roam and maybe a few cool powers or auras to strive for, but the cluster-F of the incarnate system was the last straw.
I played CoH mostly because I loved bringing great characters to life. Their costume, powers, story, name, and build were something I crafted with love and care. To have all my level 50 characters who should have been "finished" suddenly underpowered unless I went through some of the most time-consuming and difficult task forces in the game 100 times in a row... Yeah... No thanks.
That's not to say that some things aren't ok. The Invention system was a lot of fun and didn't take too much money or time to participate in, but Incarnate took it WAY too far. The requirements were far too steep.
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This summarizes my hopes and dreams for CoT. Check it out if you'd like.
The thing I liked about the Incarnate stuff was, I didn't need it for any other parts of the game. Some of the stuff wouldn't work in other parts of the game. So your characters were only unfinished if you had to have every power possible for them.
The addition of the Incarnate system wasn't that much different than when the level cap was increased from 40 to 50. All of a sudden your maxed-out character was no longer maxed-out. The main difference was that the methods of reaching 'maxed-out' status were more limited than just earning XP. It was possible to get the incarnate shards/threads via normal content, it was just a lot slower.
While there were things I would have changed about the Incarnate setup, overall I liked it.
I enjoyed the opportunity that the Incarnate system gave Amerikatt to *finally* have an AoE healing power. The downside was that it took 92-93 run-throughs before she got her *first* Ultra-Rare component!
Healing was the only thing worth the mind-numbing grind to get a Tier 4 power (for AK, at least)!
[center][color=purple][size=16][b][I][url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78N2SP6JFaI]Just a cat from another star![/url][/I][/b][/size][/color][/center]
I liked the concept of the incarnate system, but it did feel a "bit grindy" sometimes (nowhere NEAR as grindy as GW2 or the likes though) because with each iTrial you really felt like you were making progress as each item only required a few components (instead of 250 of this, 250 of that....) to make something useful. Plus the ability to craft multiple incarnate powers and switch out of combat was handy too.
Personally the thing I loved the most though was the ability to use them to "fill in" areas of the character that you wouldn't normally be able to. I was very happy to get drone pets and the accuracy debuff on my scrapper, as well as an AoE heal. None of them were game-breaking, but rounded a character off to be able to achieve different personal playstyles easily and effectively.
Tsumiju Zero - The Nightmare of Dra'Gon
Proud Leader of the Zero Strykers SG ~ Union
A different world, a different dimension, I open my eyes, ready to go, stepping from darkness into the light
Count me in as another who liked the Incarnate system - and that it was [I]entirely optional[/I]. You didn't HAVE to get those incarnate bonuses, and in fact only a few of my characters did. But the option there was nice to have.
This is why you need to ignore the outliers.. if most people like a system and one guy quits because of it.. then that's got to be too bad.
I appreciate that is harsh but look at ED and dumpster diving, map herding.. there are still really, really bitter people who I suspect were too young to play CoX in the first place.
Incarnates were bonus boosts, you didn't need them and actually it wasn't all that horribad to get the stuff you needed from it.
Yes it was grindy but so was the market, so was badging, so was building a SG for raiding.. and personally I loved replaying the content and planning what tree to build up for what toon.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
In the end, I wouldn't mind Incarnate either, if not for the grinding.
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This summarizes my hopes and dreams for CoT. Check it out if you'd like.
Fair enough if people liked it, but the market wasn't near as grindy IMO.
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This summarizes my hopes and dreams for CoT. Check it out if you'd like.
A lot of the player base I knew was mostly people ranging from late 20s to early 60s, they didn't have anything to do in their spare time except the incarnate trials which I am grateful for. It also gave me something to do besides hunt for IO's. Some of them didn't look at it as grinding, eventually it got to the point where running trials was second nature, and we would joke and talk and listen to what others had going on. I found it to be a fun way to pass time. Much more fun than just standing under Atlas, and a landslide better than reaching end game on Champions.
It could always be worse, you could be farming gold on Runescape.
Keep Low. Move Fast. Kill First. Die Last. One Shot. One Kill. No Luck. Pure Skill.
Also, I think the incarnate powers were the 1st steps, as an excuse, to create much tougher TFs for level 50's.
I havent heard anything, its just a feeling. And anyways, how else do you think you could take down Emperor Cole at the end of his TF!!??
With all your incarnate buffs, the Emperors minions would have Even More DeBuffs that would nullify yours, with waves of contraptions and machines to overcome. You think it would be easy to take them all down?! :/
What I didn't like about the incarnate system did not really have anything to do with the missions or being grindy, though they were but not more so than any other part of the game.
It had to do with the hours of standing around waiting for them to start. Really an hour of standing around just to get started. Had to be in a specific place, had to already be on the team/league cuz there would rarely be a place open for the odd person using the queue. Couldn't be in a mission. So basically all you had to do was stand around and wait.
It's going to be a very long time I think before we get any kind of end game. Heck it's only going to level 30 to start. But when we get there I hope they do this in some way that doesn't make me stand around for hours waiting or that does not require me to be right there, on the league, waiting.
Yeah...what Hube2 and Jordan said. It was optional, which was nice. However it was also going to be seen by a relatively small part of the playerbase. I know players that never got to 50 after 5 years in-game because it just wasn't that important to them.
Less grindy, less waste of time and yeah...I'd try it again.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I agree we need to implement some kind of Raid Finder. I know WoW is a curse word but the random group finder for dungeon runs leveled my last 5 characters there by itself. Thats a good thing and a bad thing. you miss a lot of the story but you run so many dungeons on the way up that you are very proficient once you get to the top. Not everyone maybe, I mean there's always THAT guy. But for the most part, good to go. Also you could free roam the maps grinding or doing non-instanced missions while waiting in que. just a thought.
Yeah, that sounds like a Jedi. Massacre a whole room full of people, then stand around apologizing for it. - Swtor NPC
The main problem with forming iTrials was that Cox players had already had a firmly established tradition of how to form TF teams, and they stuck to it after the introduction of the queuing system.
The teaming search interface in CoX was horrible. Let's start with character names in a bunch of different colours...and no key to tell you what the colours meant. Then there was the randomly-resetting default of 'not looking for team' which some people interpreted as 'not actively looking but, sure, send me a mail if you're setting something up' and other people interpreted as 'I am NOT TEAMING, and if you mail me I will gignore you and your children unto the seventh generation'. So people generally took team formation to global chat channels, and that's where it stayed, queuing be damned.
Hopefully, CoT will have better team forming systems from the outset, and people will use them.
(And add me to the tally of people who loved iTrials. They were mostly short and snappy, with cool maps and fun little additional mechanics. I never got tired of running through another MoM.)
Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for? - Robert Browning
Started CoX...,
- ...way before ED, stuck around off and on (...when I could afford the luxury...) until it became F2P...then played with gusto. Had multiple 50's and some of which I continued to play well beyond necessary because those characters were FUN to -PLAY-! :D It didn't matter if I examped down to a low level...either though helping a friend level up or going through various mission arcs via Ouroboros. Even the AV mission arc ala Tina McIntyre was a hoot to replay (...loved bashing Praetorians!...), I didn't see any part of the Incarnate Trials...would I have liked to? Sure, do I regret not doing so?...nope, because I felt super enough with the Primary/Secondary/Tertiary Power Sets.
- I didn't seek to max out my characters because some builds didn't really need anything extra. When you have a blaster that has access to Force of Nature, Temporary Invulnerability and Personal Force Field...there's not much else that needs acquired when you can fill in, part-time, as a Tank. My controller didn't need additional damage...with the inclusion of Mental Blast in her repertoire - only AV's and EB's had any real chance of surviving her mental domination, and with Personal Force Field and Indomitable Will - she could likewise fill-in temporarily as a Tank. When my Brute reached 50th...I was attacking as much at range as in melee with Hurl, Laser Beam Eyes and Energy Torrent.
- It would've been nice to see a little more, but the content was already massive enough alone to not feel like I was missing out on much. There were Ruularu to fight in the Shadow Shard, Rikties to fight in the Crash Site and Portal Corps was seldom without something to do (...in some dimension...)...and when that ran out, you could always tune into PPD on Peregrine Isle and halt some crime in progress being done by Carnies...or (...my personal all-time favorite...) the Malta Group. In short, I didn't need super funds to feel super...and that's one thing CoX got right. ^_^
I'm not sure there is a solution that will make everyone happy. Some people wanted endless level 50 content...since level 50s could [i]already[/i] participate in "normal" content, I extrapolate they want endless [i]ability to earn improvement[/i] to their characters. Yet I would like to see a character mature and pretty much "finish" mechanical (non-roleplaying) improvements (it sounds like you're in this camp as well).
IMHO the Incarnate system tried to split the difference by making post-50 character improvement part of a special subsystem and not necessary for routine content. I'm not sure it accomplished that goal (of giving one group what it wanted without making the other group feel incomplete).
Captain of Phoenix Rising
(Not so much a post on how the endgame should work, more a musing on how it could be integrated and built towards...)
CoH for most of its life operated under the "it's the journey, not the destination" mantra. The Incarnate system seemed like a way to appease those folks who wanted primarily "destination" content. It felt to me that Incarnate was really just tacked on - I don't recall any low-level missions that ever alluded to the prospect of a character achieving UNLIMITED COSMIC POWER at the end of their journey, it was an out of the blue "gratz you dinged 50, now go talk to this guy about becoming 50++++". Part of that obviously is because it wasn't part of the game at launch (and I don't know that it was part of any original plan for the game's development), but part of it is also because I don't believe that effort was made to draw attention to the Incarnate system as part of lower-level game play. I for one would have loved to run a lowbie mission that in some way referenced what my character might have the potential to achieve one day. Tons of misison re-writing would have been required for that but I think it would have really helped immersion and awareness.
With CoT, there is the opportunity and understanding that this feature could be planned/implemented from Day One, meaning it could be referenced in lore, mission text, etc. Dropping hints along the road that there is a cool (optional) feature at the end would allow for a slow release of information rather than one giant content dump.
Perhaps there could be multiple endgame paths? One that grants mechanical benefits - similar to Incarnate in that your character gains additional powers; another that could grant perk/flavour/RP benefits - something like gaining national or international recognition which gives goodies like a custom base location, costume parts, emotes, market / crafting slots, etc.; and of course a "choose nothing" path that would see your character "ride off into the sunset" so to speak (and perhaps become available as a summonable mentor to one of your new alts?).
Inarnate was ok, wished there was more incarnate mission arcs on the side though.
The problem was that after a few weeks, only the first two incarnate trials were formed by teams and played and basically farmed. Then they toned down the anti-matter one and that got added here and there. The rest seemed to largely ignored unless some SG internally planed to do it or a group of brave souls came along. Even with the Emperor Cole incarnate trial. Majority of the teams were not interested in finishing the trial. They were doing a speed run farm. Do the first part, exit, repeat.
Then even to do the first common tow sometimes that took a while to form and get everyone together to do it. And while I don't mind repeating some content, doing the same two trials with the anti-matter one sprinkled here and there in the rotation got old and boring after a while but no team wanted to tackle the underground or MoM much. And even less wanted to actually finish the emperor Cole one. Someone said something it was more efficient for reward drop to do the first part and restart than to finish it or something of the likes.
While many on the forum here and on the old forum say they liked it, in person in game at least on the virtue server, the incarnate trials seemed be treated as more of a hassle to play and only the first two and part of the emperor Cole ones are worth farming. So I suspect there are a lot more people that are not here that didn't like the incarnate trials too much, especially the emperor Cole because I recall that many complained the reward for completing that trial was weak. Wouldn't know myself,. Never could find a team to go beyond the first part.
Managed to do the Maelstorm one, one time. Interesting trial I found it to be. But I asked why don't people do it often. The team leader replied "because not many people liked his one shot kick." I asked "what kicked?" *bam* *face plant.* "that kick."
Interesting, TPN was the trial with the best overall rewards and Lambda was left in the dust eventually on Infinity server anyway.
To the OP,
I do get where you are coming from, being "done" with advancement come level 50. You were hardly the only person with that opinion. There was however a lot of people who wanted advancement beyond 50 and end game content beyond just a badge for completing a TF.
If there is one thing I remember from reading the official forums was whatever content Paragon rolled out (low, mid-range, high, incarnate), there would be complaints of "why are we getting x level instead of y level content?". We had a game full of both people who never leveled past 30 and people who would AE power-level to 50 before even starting to play. I honestly feel the devs did try to provide for all of us, just not all of us in every issue.
I remember hearing talk when the alpha slot came out saying basically that non-level shifted characters were going to be passed over on high level TFs. But I never had any trouble getting a sub-50 character on a TF, let alone a strait level 50. Where you less powerful than a full T4 incarnate? Probably, where you underpowered, never.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Yeah seen people get passed over in favor of level shifted players incarnate trials and ITF. Not too much sure of the others. Couldnt get a team to run those other ones enough to say. Many teams did speed runs and after alpha and the incarnate thing came about, a non-level shifted toon was considred sub par and slowing the team down in quickness of completing.
Seen many "ITF forming. Only alpha slotted toons." At least on virtue. And after many even refused to run with anything less than 50 and slotted with IO purple sets. Some even required purple sets and level shift. More stuff they added to make 50s more powerful more it became a requirement especially for the speed runs. Every blue moon, and sparignly compared to speed runs with requirements, there are some not doing speed run and normal toons from 35-50 with cim acess. But most of the time, being vanilla 50 wasnt enough anymore. Again, at least on virtue.
While we are still a ways from the End-game, my one hope is that characters will retain relevance in all of the game's content. I can't speak to design goals (and that would be better addressed by the Tech team), but there have been many discussions on level progression and what the End-game could look like.
I'm sure that we will be able to provide a solution that engages players at the maximum levels, and doesn't isolate them from general content. My personal goal is to see greater immersion of the character from an RP stand point, but I expect that won't be critical for everyone. So, perhaps characters will realize new content, but remain engaged with all that came before.
Terlin
[color=#ff0000]The Bullpen[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
One thing that would have bumped CoH up another notch would have been to make the radio missions zone agnostic, so that the radio missions would start at the same level range as the zone, but you would be able to go back to any zone at a higher level and get radio missions there -- since you could sent to any of the lower zones for a regular mission, you should be able to get a radio mission in the same zone; with the missions being instanced, there's no reason why there wouldn't be an [i]ad hoc[/i] need for high-level heroic intervention in any zone.
That's a shame; I don't recall, on Guardian, ever seeing an ITF announcement that [i]required[/i] either level 50, Alpha slotted, purple-slotted, or level-shifted characters; aside from a few publicly-announced 'specialty' ITF runs like the ones Kay did -- the all-Kinetic ITF was a blast, and so was an all-Mastermind one -- the only people that got turned away were the ones who weren't 35 and couldn't get into Cimerora, or showed up after the team was full (and in many cases a second team kicked off less than ten minutes later with the people who were late to the first one).
For speed or challenging runs (like a 3 man ITF) I can see being a tad picky with peoples level and bonuses, that's really outside of the norm however. All I can say is I was only ever turned down for an ITF or LG because the team was already full. I can't think that this was only an anomaly of the infinity server.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Yeah speed runs became the normal followed by the ones farming to items/speed and regular runs became the anamaly on Virtue. Thus majority of the ITF forming I seen were selective about who joins so it can be done faster. Never seen a 3 man ITF from start to finished but been a part of one because more than 15 minutes was too long for the other five. Guess they missed when the leader said it wasnt a speed run in the chat announcement. So the last of us soldiered on and finished, still in less than an hour.
I loved the Incarnate system. It's what endgame is about.
In Aion, WoW, CoH, EQ, CO, you hit level cap, Then you do big raids, TFs, Trials, long-tedious-difficult events just to get the top notch piece. Only those who really wanted it did it. If you didn't want it, you didn't get it. Time/effort invested = reward. Videos games are just about logging on and pretty buttons to see nice graphics. Many mmos require lots of strategy and teamwork - for that effort, games rewarded players greatly, as deserved.
To be part of your future.
Or just buy it like a lot of people do.
and yeah end game team based, raids. And thus end up with "Oh yeah you can solo in this game or team it's up to you." but they leave out the "...until you reach max level then you must team." Which ends up with people either alting or getting bored and leaving. While one or two games get the lion's share of the players. Because hell. if all of them do the end content the same way, then might as well go where there is greater chance to get a team.
End game wise, there isn't much to distinguish between the MMOs. One fantasy game decided to do it like that and it ended up being "that is how it must be done."
Each new game have chance to be innovative especially with the end game content but most choose to simply do it the old fashioned way because WoW did it and that is how Everquest did it so that must mean it's the only way to do it. That is why a lot of new games have hard time breaking into great success lately. There isn't anything to distinguish them from one another. One have updated graphics, a plus but only carries so far, or simply different theme. This is this game chance to be innovative especially when dealing with end game content. Either way they go, I hope they consider the options before settling, even if it ends up traditional way. That just means players will have to wait a little longer before someone gets brave. Like WoW did when it came out and look at it now. Like COX did in it's day, and with a bit more marketing it would have went far but even then, I don't think I seen it as loved as much by the players as other game players. But what was innovative then is normal now.
Will it be another game, going by classic rules because some elf drawer said it have to be like that? Or will they go outside the box, and make it their own and years later people be talking about "Hey, CoT did that feature long ago. Now everyone is copying them."
This may be a dumb idea, but At level 50 could that achievement "Unlock" ALL of the Story Arcs in the game AT level 50? As in all your old contacts call you, and contacts you missed on the way up. They say "Hey, I hear you finally hit the big time. Well, guess what so did the Hellions. Come see me and we'll get to work on em again." Same story arcs, but all the enemies are now Level 50, with level 50 power rotations from whatever sets they were originally assigned. This would offer a different option than just raiding and pvping for endgame, allowing players to see the story arcs they missed, and showcase the entire game and all the hard work the Devs put into it. Plus it allows you to experience the whole game in its entirety (sorry, just love that phrase) with your fully powered character. The maps would random generate for the mission like they did the first time thru so even tho the mission is the same the map may not be. Then when your done that time you can re run it again and again. Kind of ouroborus-ish but at level 50 instead of the original level. OR it gets a level slider and you, your team, and the enemies scale to that level. Any takers?
Yeah, that sounds like a Jedi. Massacre a whole room full of people, then stand around apologizing for it. - Swtor NPC
All of which are things that siphon off enjoyment in SWTOR -- it's got the WoW-proven 'trinity' of tank/dps/heal and the endgame consists of WoW-proven 'dailies', the WoW-proven raids (with story mode, hard mode, and nightmare mode difficulty levels for the people who want a higher risk for better rewards), and the WoW-proven PvP battles. it shows some innovation in each class having a coherent story line, at the cost of your getting into the mine car at level 1 and riding down the track of your class story line to the level cap -- every member of a given class goes down the exact same story line, with the choices you get in conversations having no real effect on the overall sweep of the story line. With what I've heard from the MWM people so far, CoT has the potential to kick most of the MMORPG memes to the curb and break new ground; it remains to be seen if it can live up to its promise.
I loved incarnate, I dislike the grind. I *despised* the "Magi 250" to unlock Hybrid.
If we could do a system similar to it, I'd be all over it. It needs a away to unlock that is less grindy.
The plastic tips on the ends of shoelaces are called Aglets; their true purpose is sinister.
As an RPer I loved the idea of Incarnate, because it wasn't just "You've hit the big time" but "You are a god on earth, with all the benefits (Great power) and problems (grater responsibility) it entails", and I had great fun on more than one occasion enjoying the alpha-slot as a fledgling God, struggling with the weight of this new world on their shoulders as reality dictated some of their actions for them because they were now too much to ignore by the world, or just being that extra level of powerful while most of my higher level characters had nothing to do with the Incarnate system, just because it didn't suit them; they were just not that powerful. And on a stat-wise it gave great confidence to a scrapper who was attack and more attack so I could walk up to everything and know I'd do SOME damage to it.
What I didn't enjoy was that I couldn't do any of this in my circle of friends. There was, about, ten of us and that wasn't enough to get a reasonable share of the gear to make our Incarnates powerful. They started to change this with the implementation of rewards in TFs (I'm looking at you Dark Astoria, you wonderful, messed up place) but even then it was still a horrible, horrible, grind. And I could do NONE OF IT on my own, it had to be with a team and if I wanted it at any reasonable rate it had to be with a team of thirty people. I think there is a place for those thirty man teams, definitely, but there also needs to be a place for the guy who's jumped on for a few hours on his own, just to have a bit of fun, or to try to work a few kinks out of the character or even "Hey, I just fancy kicking around these old missions". The same was really true of all the end game content; I had to be part of a team and for me that team was generally between three and five, which wasn't enough to do the big missions so we couldn't get the big rewards.
Perhaps, instead of a "Find this item, this item, this item and this item" system, it could just be an extra leveling system that you work on with its own special XP, much like Incarnate XP but unlocking things you can use rather than just unlocking the potential thing you could potentially use. Ether way I would support Incarnate again, but ask for implementation to alter for the benefit of those with smaller teams, or RP teams that enjoy chatting while playing and acting out. If you want to earn it in a quick click, as it were, then you'll have to grind the big 40 man speed run missions, but it'd be good to keep it accessible to the smaller groups or to the role-players who want to act through the story.
Keep with the bigger stories, though, as I felt that was great fun. Just a thought!
Take care, guys!
"With Knowledge comes Power, but Power corrupts; so study hard and be Evil!"
One of the things I did like about the Incarnate system from COH, was the fact that they didn't only effect lvl 50 content, it was 45 to 50 content, which isn't a huge difference but it made enough of a difference that it meant you could enjoy the benefit of grinding out the incarnate powers at more than just the very very end of the game content. Side benefit is it also meant that lower lvl people could also see the benefit it gave, advertising the incarnate powers themselves making others want to get them as well.
Like others I didn't always want to run 30 man teams to get the xp I needed to unlock the powers and the solo route was way too slow even if the content itself was quite good.
My personal idea of endgame is that after you've created your character within the parameters of "growing" experiences you become a professional. Sure you can teach an old dog new tricks but game design (not just MMO, but card games, board games etc) works within a defined paradigm.
Champions Online tried to circumvent this by creating more customization instead of a level cap boost.. look what happened to that ENTIRE combat system *shakes head*. Once you've found a *cough* ACTION PACKED */cough* combat system using your defined parameters of what a character can and can't do … don't go messing that up. And on that note I have to warn that it MUST be flexible upon inception. If your system allows dodge.. then decide if characters can have dodge while also having mitigation. If you create a debuff system based on quality don't go and throw it out for a "3 holds then you can't be held again" model.
.. Bitter? I'm not bitter LMAO.
Present me with more challenges and content to tell my story. I'm ok with my character maturing to a point and being mature (hell even aging and getting weaker against progressively more challenging content). But I hate when games try to teach old dogs new tricks and think it exists in a vacuum.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I sorta loved the iTrials.
I would run around getting exploration badges or street sweeping badges while in Raid queue
I'd get all this level 50 rate prestige for my supergroup of 1 that allowed me to afford alot of great stuff on my own (large teleportation chamber and the like)
And I could come closer to my dream of overclocking my character's regen (even if it be at the expense of some of his actual combat effectiveness)
It did seem a little grindy, but I always figured that was because it hadn't had the time to evolve yet. Content takes time.