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System Mechanics: Crowd Control and Debuffs

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JayBezz
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System Mechanics: Crowd Control and Debuffs

What did you like about CoX mez system? What would you change? What do you think about separating holds from debuffs? What do you think about a tiered, quality based hold system? In this thread, I'd like to talk about for the "Controller" class, and the combat implications between hard crowd control and debuffs and what we want to see in City of Titans.

Systems creation is likely only in talks (as animations and FX usually take priority and are less likely to change in testing) so I thought it a good time/place to ask.

(Moderator: If this belongs in the General Topic please feel free to move it)

- -

My thoughts:

For me the Crowd Control classifies is a "Movement Control" function such as:
The ability to slow enemies approaching you
The ability to Stop enemies in their tracks
The ability to bunch enemies into AoE
The ability to make enemies run away
The ability to affect enemies ability to attack while "dazed"
The ability to make enemies fight each other

My character wants to have a mastery of the abilities above.

Many control classes also get debuffs such as:
Enemy attack output is XX% less DPS
Enemy damage mitigation is lowered XX%
Enemy healing is less effective
Enemy can attack less often (Energy or Cooldowns etc)

It is my hope that debuffs and crowd control are two separate mechanics - Much like how buffs and healing are often separate mechanics. I see the merit of having the systems be separate but many games have combined them.

- -

My hope is to find a game where the Crowd Control and Debuffs are systems based on qualitative numbers. In Champions Onlin: Free to Play the hold system is a quantitative system (after three holds holds no longer work, regardless of hold quality). This was frustrating enough to make me hate playing a controller in the game. In other games, like Marvel Heroes the holds are binary (and timed), this works because of their AI but again does not really take the "quality" of a hold into consideration..

My ideal Crowd Control system is based on "Mez Points" and the amount of MP is countered by damage, innate resistance and the innate ability to "Break Free" over time. Players of 2009 Champions Online [NOT Champions Online Free To Play] will find this familiar

0-1200 MP = Slow (Enemy movement speed is reduced)
1201-2500 MP = Root (Enemy is rooted in place)
2501-4500 MP = Fatigued (Enemy can cast a power once every X seconds instead of normal)
4501-5000 MP = Stunned (Enemy cannot cast a power and is held still)

There is a "Mez Cap" (Cannot exceed X Mez Points) to keep players from being indefinately mezzed.
This is based on a "One and done" system where after breaking free of Mez enemies are temporarily immune.
The cap, by design, is much closer to the highest tier so that no character spends too much time completely vulnerable.
Like in many other games, taking damage directly lowers the Mez Points so any Attack Damage is going to free the enemy; however leaving a Mezzed target untouched is the best way to get the highest yield.

My Ideal Debuff system is also Qualitative and not Quantitative. Debuff Strength should be something players can invest in and see a return instead of "this debuff (no matter who uses it or what attributes they have) always does 15% decrease to enemy offense.

1000 Debuff Points = 10% Offense
1000 Debuff Points = 5% Defense
1000 Debuff Points = 20% Healing reduction

If a player has gear/attributes/class to increase their debuff Strength you can then quantify how much their debuffs work (Also You can then create debuff resistances based on the same quality based system). Instead of doing a 15% debuff all the time (over varying amounts of time) the amount of time for debuffs would be static and the potency would be variable.

- -

Too Loong? Didn't Read?:
I am a fan of quality based game systems. Increasing Damage per Second is usually quality based with damage points. Increasing Healing Per Second is usually quality based using Health Points. I would like to see the same finally happen to Crowd Control and Debuffing so characters can actually invest in these combat mechanics and yield a return.

If there is competitive PvE (Like "Open Missions" that count "who did the most Damage/Healing/et cetera in combat) I hope that Controllers points can finally be counted and not invisible. Qualitative Points systems help make this happen. "Hold Time" systems and "Binary Held/Not Held" systems often do not.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Comicsluvr
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My thoughts on Mez:

My thoughts on Mez:

I did not like that it was often a black or white system. If I'm held, I can do nothing...if I'm not Held I can do anything. Really? We can't have anything in between?

I personally think that we should have some sort of scaling Mez system. Assume that we have 10 available Powers in our Primary and 10 in our Secondary (just to pick a number). I think that Mez should stack in levels. At level 1 Mez you lose control of your first power in your Primary and Secondary. At lvl 2 you lose the second Power and so on. In this way Mez is way more dangerous at low levels but hopefully the Devs will consider this and not have any Mezzers the first 5 levels or so.

I remember watching some of the JL cartoons and some of the animated movies out the past few years. Even the Tankers can be smacked around given enough effort. Yet if you tie someone up they often had that ONE thing they could still do. So if my Blaster gets Mezzed during a fight maybe I can still access a couple of powers to help out until I get loose or something.

Stun was big for this. Some foes used attacks that kept you Perma-Stunned until you were dead. Yeah...not fun. So why lose ALL of your abilities while Stunned? Why not lose some of them and then have a minus to hit or defense or whatever?

There HAS to be a better way to do this.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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At the end, blasters in CoX

At the end, blasters in CoX were able to use a couple powers despite being held/slept/etc. It came in really handy sometimes.

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

I did not like that it was often a black or white system. If I'm held, I can do nothing...if I'm not Held I can do anything. Really? We can't have anything in between?

Weird...,

- ...I was thinking about that this morning as well since Control powers applied a status effect and perhaps some damage, but no secondary effect. Why was it that Dominate would do Psionic damage, but would also apply some sort of Attack Speed reduction? Nearly every single other kind of Psionic attack did...it would seem logical to likewise apply a DeBuff aspect to Control Powers which would have a duration as long as most Blast Powers in order to establish a more synergetic compulation rather than having just a similar damage type and that's it.

- It would make 'Sleep' Powers more desirable to say the least and would give reason for a Mind Controller to continue using Dominate on an AV because even though there wasn't much of a chance of said AV being Held...reducing their Attack Speed would be a much desired effect. In short, there shouldn't be any 'naked' Control Powers - a Mind Controller would still reduce the Attack Speed of a mob they've Confused inasmuch as a Darkness Controller would have their Confused target have their Accuracy DeBuffed...

- ...though I'm willing to bet those Powers would not be slotted for enhanced Slow/Accuracy DeBuff. ^_^

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Sleep worked as a soft hold

Sleep worked as a soft hold for solo play, or if you had a small, smart team that could notice the little "Z z z z's" floating over a foe's head (till some itchy trigger finger set off an AoE attack and woke everyone up again.) Still, as a strategy tool it had it's uses.

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Doctor October wrote:
Doctor October wrote:

Sleep worked as a soft hold for solo play, or if you had a small, smart team that could notice the little "Z z z z's" floating over a foe's head (till some itchy trigger finger set off an AoE attack and woke everyone up again.) Still, as a strategy tool it had it's uses.

We had a team a few times with one of those AoE Sleep Powers. He'd lead off, then all the PBAoE would run to the middle of the mob and set off everything they had. Or sweep in from the edges with everyone hitting the same guy. It worked great.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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the problem I had with Mezes

the problem I had with Mezes in CoH, was how powerfull they were to non- controllers/dominators. if you had a mez power it would work (barring an enemy resistance) on minions and Lts. Though I took advantage of that, it always bothered me. It was fine that anyone with a stun could stun a minion, but Lts. should have taken more, and only Controllers and Dominators should have been able to mez Lts. out of the box.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

It was fine that anyone with a stun could stun a minion, but Lts. should have taken more, and only Controllers and Dominators should have been able to mez Lts. out of the box.

Regarding AOE Mezzes, yes...,

- ...regarding single target mezzes...not so much. Even though I am not one to laud Stun from the Energy Manipulation Power Set...a single target mez should work even against a Boss, if but for a short period of time. You have to remember, in regarding mezzes...no one really comes close to how much a Controller can lock down, but to limit a Non-Controller the ability to apply a single target mez? No, that would be absolutely crippling to those AT's who are inherently reliant on some form of soft control that helps them stay alive. My 50th En/En 'Melee Blaster' would -NOT- have made it to 50 without Stun (<- guilty confession, I hated Stun...it did almost no Damage, but I needed it in order to take on mobs - Stunning Lt's and Bosses was essential...). My Fire/Fire Blaster had no real mez abillity...and the results were self-evident (...face-planted a -LOT-...).

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

the problem I had with Mezes in CoH, was how powerfull they were to non- controllers/dominators. if you had a mez power it would work (barring an enemy resistance) on minions and Lts. Though I took advantage of that, it always bothered me. It was fine that anyone with a stun could stun a minion, but Lts. should have taken more, and only Controllers and Dominators should have been able to mez Lts. out of the box.

Completely agreed. Having a Tiered system based on Mez Points is one benefit to this. If you're a ranged DPS character, it should be much harder to get "stun" than say a melee character. Just as healers are usually more susceptible to Mez than Tanks.

Having a system based on the "Strength" of the Mez vs the Strength of Mez resistance is the only way to make sure that controllers are viable as a class in my opinion. In a binary system, if another class has access to mez powers it makes controllers much less useful. Since I don't want to restrict mez powers ONLY to Commanders a quality based system is neccesary

Crowd Control Enthusiast

JayBezz
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Had a thought:

Had a thought:

What If Commanders focus on Debuffing enemy Offense (giving the class a survival tactic in boss fights (assuming bosses will not get mezzed)
while
Guardians focus on Debuffing Enemy Defenses? (Giving the class, which already has survival tactics, a chance to add damage to a boss fight)

Thoughts?

Crowd Control Enthusiast

syntaxerror37
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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

syntaxerror37 wrote:
the problem I had with Mezes in CoH, was how powerfull they were to non- controllers/dominators. if you had a mez power it would work (barring an enemy resistance) on minions and Lts. Though I took advantage of that, it always bothered me. It was fine that anyone with a stun could stun a minion, but Lts. should have taken more, and only Controllers and Dominators should have been able to mez Lts. out of the box.

Completely agreed. Having a Tiered system based on Mez Points is one benefit to this. If you're a ranged DPS character, it should be much harder to get "stun" than say a melee character. Just as healers are usually more susceptible to Mez than Tanks.
Having a system based on the "Strength" of the Mez vs the Strength of Mez resistance is the only way to make sure that controllers are viable as a class in my opinion. In a binary system, if another class has access to mez powers it makes controllers much less useful. Since I don't want to restrict mez powers ONLY to Commanders a quality based system is neccesary

Probably would help, although it was more than just the mez thing, I feel the Lts were too close to minions in difficulty. Sure, everyone can name ones with annoying powers, like Tsoo sorcerers and Carny illusionists. If minions, lts, and bosses were supposed to be easy medium and hard, they came across as easy, less easy, and hard.

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Hard control effects should

Hard control effects should have strong natural decay, a scaling effect and allow mezzed target to attack the effect once it becomes the full effect. Basically the effect has HP and the more mez is stacked on you the less hp it adds to that effect. i.e. if you get hit by hold initially it applies +40 mez but if you get hit again from same or different source it merely adds +20 to mez and then +10 mez. This is per control type. Mez also has a scale i.e. 100 strength is complete effect while under it short mez happens at certain thresholds. Once it reaches the full effect the mez can be attacked by target and further applications merely add further hp to the effect.

The thresholds could function something like this:
Natural decay 5/s
at 20 points held for 1s
at 40 points held for 1s
at 60 points held for 1s
at 80 points held for 1s
at 100 held until mez decays below 100 --> target can attack the effect to bring it below 100

i.e you have a power called "mesmerize" which is your basic strength +40 psychic hold. You cast it at target which now has 40 points of mez effect applied. Since this hits the 40 point threshold target is held for 1s and can then move normally or attack normally while the mez decays 5 points every second. Once it decays to 20s target is again held for 1s if no more mez effects are being applied target. If you recast dominate or someone else casts similar hold power it applies +20 mez through diminishing returns since target is already under mez. If it doesn't hit any specific threshold there is no further effect until more is added or it decays down to it. Once the effect goes to 100 or above you have to actually fight it off.

Of course 100 and 5/s decay are just easy values and I don't think threshold is exactly correct word since the "mez" happens at specific point values i.e if you somehow apply 45 points mez nothing happens target is not held until the mez decays to 40 mark and again when it decays to 20 point mark.

I'm not sure how this would work for physical holds though. Perhaps they should immediately go past 100 with no effect below it.

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Yeah. While I am wholly

Yeah. While I am wholly excited about a quality based system.. I am still dealing with how the points will stack and decay.

My original thought was that the effects had a fixed length of time.. so If I hit you with 500 Mez points it lasted for 5 seconds. Someone else could hit you with 300 Mez Points and theirs would also last 5 Seconds.

At one point you'd have 800 mez points effecting you but you'd go back down to 300 mez points at some point.

Character mez resistance would be to increase their thresholds of how the effects are tiered. So for the average player it would take 1000 mez to root them and cause fatigue effects you could move the scale .. so instead of 0-1000 for movement debuffs you'd go instead to a scale of 0-1250 OR you can move the starting point and have a scale of 250-1250 for slow effects (meaning you are completely unaffected by things under 250 mez points.. I dunno

TLDR - The counter system to what I propose still needs a lot of thought.. But I hope the status effects are quality based and not based on quantity (you shot a stun so they're stunned).

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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This^

This^
Defiance came in really handy since Blasters were aggro magnets with almost no protection against CC. I remember getting 20 second held (dominate) by a Lost once who then took to me with a sword. Alternating between my first two blasting powers I dropped him through the hold before he managed to drop me. It was pitiful but epic at the same time.

I would really like to see each class/archtype get a unique feature that really sets them apart from all others like in COH. Defiance was perfect for blasters. Other passive archtype powers I loved were Stalkers invisibility and assassination mechanics, Brutes fury, Controllers containment, and Dominators domination, they were really noticeable unlike some others.

Every villain is a hero in their own mind.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

TLDR - The counter system to what I propose still needs a lot of thought.. But I hope the status effects are quality based and not based on quantity (you shot a stun so they're stunned).

I'm curious how you would describe CoH's mez system. The language you're using is a little foreign to me. Maybe because it's terminology more common to CO which I have little familiarity with. Would you classify it as a quantitative system or a qualitative one?

In my view, it had many of the elements necessary for a qualitative system but did not utilize them fully, resulting in a fairly binary system. For instance, mez resistance was available though not often in appreciable amounts (inventions offered laughable amounts of mez resistance) or only in powers that had to be used preemptively (such as Accelerate Metabolism). The inclusion of a self-affecting power usable while mezzed that built mez resistance seems like it would have fit the bill for something you'd like.

But perhaps I'm wrong. In either case, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on the ideal mez system.

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Because this game has

Because this game has (thankfully) decided to have controllers as a class I am saying that the binary system of CoH (and CO post nerf) is one I cannot support. The same as DPS characters seek higher and higher magnitude of Damage I as a controller will be seeking higher and higher magnitude of debuffs.

This means that my Root cannot have the same value as the controller next to me with inequitable investment.

Repost my ideal system:

JayBezz wrote:

My ideal Crowd Control system is based on "Mez Points" and the amount of MP is countered by damage, innate resistance and the innate ability to "Break Free" over time. Players of 2009 Champions Online [NOT Champions Online Free To Play] will find this familiar

0-1200 MP = Slow (Movement Speed educed at 600MP = 50% speed debuff. 1199 MP = 99.99% speed debuff)
1201-2500 MP = Root (Enemy is rooted in place)
2501-4500 MP = Fatigued (Enemy can cast a power once every X seconds instead of normal)
4501-5000 MP = Stunned (Enemy cannot cast a power and is held still)

There is a "Mez Cap" (Cannot exceed X Mez Points) to keep players from being indefinately mezzed.
This is based on a "One and done" system where after breaking free of Mez enemies are temporarily immune.
The cap, by design, is much closer to the highest tier so that no character spends too much time completely vulnerable.
Like in many other games, taking damage directly lowers the Mez Points so any Attack Damage is going to free the enemy; however leaving a Mezzed target untouched is the best way to get the highest yield.

My Ideal Debuff system is also Qualitative and not Quantitative. Debuff Strength should be something players can invest in and see a return instead of "this debuff (no matter who uses it or what attributes they have) always does 15% decrease to enemy offense.

1000 Debuff Points = 10% Offense
1000 Debuff Points = 5% Defense
1000 Debuff Points = 20% Healing reduction

If a player has gear/attributes/class to increase their debuff Strength you can then quantify how much their debuffs work (Also You can then create debuff resistances based on the same quality based system). Instead of doing a 15% debuff all the time (over varying amounts of time) the amount of time for debuffs would be static and the potency would be variable.

To expand.. I am LOVING wildstar's interrupt armor. In my mind a player would get a certain number of armors. If you have 3 armors as a player then each armor is given an amount of shield points. If a boss has 4 CC armor is at 750MP then it will lose ONE CC armor every 750 points of Mez points put on it. it will take 1000 Mez Points to break all of the CC armor of that particular NPC.

The harder the boss the higher the CC armor *both number of layers AND magnitude of each layer*. This would allow CCers to keep doing actually Crowd Control in boss fights without being useless.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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I'll try to use CoH terms -

I'll try to use CoH terms - hopefully this is coherent...

If bosses, EBs, and AVs have a combination of CC magnitude protection and CC duration resistance (as they did in CoH but with some adjustments to the actual values), it seems like the fights can avoid binary control. For enemies with high enough mag protection, the controller will need to stack CC powers to overcome the enemy's mag protection to break it for the first time. With high enough mez resistance, the CC effects will drop off of the enemy faster and thus force the controller to respond by reapplying controls (or getting help from other controllers).

Strategically, the controller could enhance CC duration and possibly even CC magnitude, reduce the recharge of their CC powers, and select more powers that can stack the same type of CC. Some enemies had powers (similar to break-frees or defender mez protection buffs) that boost CC protection - thereby removing or reducing the effects of CC that the controller has already applied to them or to their buddies.

I generally liked how CC worked in CoH, but I would have preferred if there was better tuning of the boss-and-above CC protection and resistance to make it feel less binary. For example, knockback should be reduced or periodically blocked but not completely ineffective against physically-small AVs.

If CoT wants to make CC even less binary, perhaps a slow, endurance drain, brief AI interrupt, and/or recharge reduction effect can begin to affect an enemy if their CC mag protection is only partially broken. Difficult enemies with lore-based reasons to build up extra resistance to controls could have an emergency power that dramatically boosts their CC duration resistance and/or CC mag protection when controlled for more than X seconds in a row, to replace the "purple triangles" that made AV and some EB fights have a binary feeling for controllers.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Because this game has (thankfully) decided to have controllers as a class I am saying that the binary system of CoH (and CO post nerf) is one I cannot support. The same as DPS characters seek higher and higher magnitude of Damage I as a controller will be seeking higher and higher magnitude of debuffs.

Ok, this was where I was having a bit of a disconnect. CoH's mez system, in my view, fits the bill for a system "based on the 'Strength' of the Mez vs the Strength of Mez resistance". In this regard I think it's similar to JayBezz's proposed Mez Point system (both utilize the magnitude of the mez versus the magnitude of protection). Where it differs though is that it is very binary while JB's system is dynamic. Because there is some difference in language used from game to game, I'd like to take a second to clarify some of the terms that I may use in discussing these things.

Mez Resistance vs. Mez Protection
In CoH these referred to different aspects of the mez system. Mez Resistance reduced the duration of mez effects while Mez Protection prevented mez effects from taking effect until the amount of mez on the target exceeded the target's Mez Protection. Protection was essentially anti-mez.

Binary Systems vs. Dynamic Systems
In a binary system there are only two states in regards to a mez; mezzed or not mezzed. CoH's mez system was a binary system in this regard. Until a mob's mez protection was reduced below 0, they remained un-mezzed. In a dynamic system, a mez will apply some portion of its effect with even a single application. For instance, a snare will slow movement speed until it reaches a point where the target is entirely immobilized.

In these terms, I would describe Jaybezz's system as a Dynamic Protection based system. (My ideal system is a Dynamic Mixed system.) Dynamic systems, in my opinion, are much more empowering for players. The notion that your crowd controls are doing nothing, even for a portion of a fight, can be a frustrating feeling.

Quote:

This means that my Root cannot have the same value as the controller next to me with inequitable investment.

In CoH a mez effect with an enhanced duration and reduced cool down did have greater value than one using the base value because there were no hard limits to the number of stacks a power could apply to a mob; this allowed the player to reapply a power, building magnitude on the target to breaks its mez protection. The practical cap to how many stacks could be applied came from the power's duration and how quickly it could be reapplied. I think it's unfortunate that many games hinder crowd controls by limiting stacks, particularly when they utilize fixed durations and cool downs which act as a limiter already.

Quote:

To expand.. I am LOVING wildstar's interrupt armor. In my mind a player would get a certain number of armors. If you have 3 armors as a player then each armor is given an amount of shield points. If a boss has 4 CC armor is at 750MP then it will lose ONE CC armor every 750 points of Mez points put on it. it will take 1000 Mez Points to break all of the CC armor of that particular NPC.
The harder the boss the higher the CC armor *both number of layers AND magnitude of each layer*. This would allow CCers to keep doing actually Crowd Control in boss fights without being useless.

I think there's a bit of redundancy in this idea. Four layers of armor with 750 MP would require 3000 MP total to overcome, correct? What differentiates that from simply having a single layer of armor with 3000 MP?

At some point, I think I may collect a few of my thoughts on my ideal mez system. For now though, I look forward to hearing more about others' ideas.

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mrketch wrote:
mrketch wrote:

I think there's a bit of redundancy in this idea. Four layers of armor with 750 MP would require 3000 MP total to overcome, correct? What differentiates that from simply having a single layer of armor with 3000 MP?
At some point, I think I may collect a few of my thoughts on my ideal mez system. For now though, I look forward to hearing more about others' ideas.

Having played Wildstar, the system that they use (so you are aware of it) goes like this:

1) Mobs can have a value attached to their "interrupt armour" armour stat. It is either 0,1,2 or higher.
2) To stun a mob you need to get its "interrupt armour" value down to -1.
3) All interrupts/stuns (as far as I can tell) reduce the "interrupt armour" value down by 1 per application
4) If you get the "interrupt armour" value down to -1 WHILST the mob is casting an attack (ie it has the telegraph marking out) you get it into a "weakened stun" state, where for a short period of time, all attacks done to it deal extra damage.
5) After a period of time (it starts off quite long in the low levels, gets shorter in the higher levels), the "interrupt armour" value *resets* back to its original value.
6) Players are able to get interrupt armour through their abilities/AMPs system (depends on class) and (quite possibly) gear as well.
7) Players can have more than one "interrupt ability" at any point in time.
8) There are abilities/AMPS that a player can get that will *reduce* the amount of time that they stunned/CC'd for.

That is the system in a small nut shell. It doesn't cover everything, because I am unaware of the system, but I hope that this clarifies this to an extent.

*edit* So to possibly expand on Jaybez's thought this is how I think he wants it to go:

The less interrupt armour you have, the longer stuns last on you. To remove a "layer" of interrupt armour requires you to exceed a certain value. The more layers you lose from your original value.. the longer the stun/CC lasts for.

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mrketch wrote:
mrketch wrote:

At some point, I think I may collect a few of my thoughts on my ideal mez system. For now though, I look forward to hearing more about others' ideas.

I always thought CoX had a sort of tiered Mez system in place. There were slows, roots, sleeps, stuns and holds. With things like confuse, fear, knockback and knockdown falling in there somewhere too.
If you lump all of these under the lable 'mez' they loose the distinction. ...take an example from CoX... Plant domination has entangle and strangulation as its first two powers. One immobilizes the other holds. In the tiered system you seem to be proposing they would both just be a mez that would start at the immobilize step and work its way up to the hold step....they would be interchangeable.

I would think a better way to apply the tiered system would be to keep each power as is....hold, immob ect....but give a greater synergy between them. Will take a bit to explain so bear with me...

For the purposes of my explination I am going to consider the order of value on a mez to be ...
from lowest to greatest
slow
immobilize
sleep
stun
hold
If you apply a slow it will be overcome by applying an immobilize and so forth.

If you keep the original effect....an immobilize still just immobilizes and a hold just holds...and then apply the stacking bonus to them you might get something like what you want.
For example, if you hit a foe with an immob the immob behaves normally....but if you were then to hit him with the hold, the foe is now held but also include a portion of the magnitude and duration from the immob in the equation.
Same can be done in the opposite, If you hit a foe with hold it acts normal but you can increase the mag and duration of the hold with the application of the immob (it stays a hold as its the greater value mez).

Basically each power would be separate in effect to allow you to both use the desired effect in a specific situation (immob to stop a running minion), split the effects over a group (hold the luet, stun the minion and sleep the boss) but it would also act as a force modifier when focusing all your actions on one foe.

Edited to include:
I forgot to mention that this idea of force modification would of course need to be balanced.

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The armor system having

The armor system having different tiers of number of armors and magnitude of armor is so that mez resistance becomes a matter of choice.

Player A may have only one armor but the value they have invested is over 5000 so it will likely be hard to ever really break that armor this is ONE way to view armor for mez resistance.

But Player B is a tank and can survive being mezzed pretty easily but they need assurance that the duration isn't too long. They may want to take 4 or 5 layers of armor that keep the average mez duration down to about 2 seconds instead of the standard 4.

- -

Yes I am very much advocating a dynamic system. I did not at all like City of Statues mostly because it cheapens the actual value of debuffing (most players don't actually NEED to hold a target indefinitely). Also this allows the system to grow in magnitude when level increases or attribute (stat?) increases happen.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

The armor system having different tiers of number of armors and magnitude of armor is so that mez resistance becomes a matter of choice.

I thought I understood what you wanted to get out of the mez system in CoT.
I thought it was a combination of
wanting to have repeated uses of a mez to have a tiered effect....
a mechanic similar to the way dps and healers can increase damage and heals
and a way to show that a controllers holds were better than a scrappers holds as well as a way measure them against one another.
I found your proposed system to be an overly complicated way to get these end results so I proposed my own.
If I am wrong about what you want the result to be then please...could you explain exactly what you want.

Edited-
You know what nevermind, I think I see what your desire is....I personally would not like to see its inclusion but my reasons are purely subjective so won't add to the conversation.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

The armor system having different tiers of number of armors and magnitude of armor is so that mez resistance becomes a matter of choice.
Player A may have only one armor but the value they have invested is over 5000 so it will likely be hard to ever really break that armor this is ONE way to view armor for mez resistance.
But Player B is a tank and can survive being mezzed pretty easily but they need assurance that the duration isn't too long. They may want to take 4 or 5 layers of armor that keep the average mez duration down to about 2 seconds instead of the standard 4.

I'm still quite fuzzy on your meaning. For the sake of clarification perhaps you could answer a few questions: what happens when you break a single layer of mez armor? For instance, what happens when a you have 4 tiers of armor out 5 (each one having a 100 mez points) vs. a single tier of armor having 400 out 500 mez points? I would assume that the armor only replenishes after it has been broken, resulting in ablative protection so that if a mez broke through all 5 tiers its duration would be cut short when the first broken tier renewed itself.

Quote:

Yes I am very much advocating a dynamic system. I did not at all like City of Statues mostly because it cheapens the actual value of debuffing (most players don't actually NEED to hold a target indefinitely). Also this allows the system to grow in magnitude when level increases or attribute (stat?) increases happen.

I'd agree that the degree of control available in CoH did make mitigating debuffs (-tohit, -recharge speed, and endurance drain) redundant. It was very gratifying to build a dominator capable of perma-dom and lock down nearly every fight from beginning to end, but at the same time it did make those debuffs and even the addition of another control archetype to the team a less than stellar investment. I think JB and I would definitely agree that a dynamic system is far more capable of avoiding such a steep curve of diminishing returns.

islandtrevor72 wrote:

I always thought CoX had a sort of tiered Mez system in place. There were slows, roots, sleeps, stuns and holds. With things like confuse, fear, knockback and knockdown falling in there somewhere too.
If you lump all of these under the lable 'mez' they loose the distinction. ...take an example from CoX... Plant domination has entangle and strangulation as its first two powers. One immobilizes the other holds. In the tiered system you seem to be proposing they would both just be a mez that would start at the immobilize step and work its way up to the hold step....they would be interchangeable.

I agree with you that different types of mez lose their distinctiveness in JB's initially proposed system. It also creates a problem with incorporating different types of mezzes. For instance, where would you place confusion (as in the CoH variety which allowed movement but forced enemies to target their allies)? Likewise, Sleep would present a problem with the sudden interjection of a mez that is broken on damage. Would it then simply revert to an immobilize?

Perhaps a better way to address mez would be for each type of mez to have it's own scale. This would allow the combining of similar effects; for instance, movement slows would scale into full on immobilizes or chance to interrupt power activation would scale into a full on stun that prevented 100% of activations. Other powers could remain distinct; for example, confusion would remain as a chance to attack allies but would scale from a small percentage to a full 100% or sleep would carry a drowsy effect that would carry a percent chance to reapply the sleep after initially broken. In such a system, perhaps exceeding 100% of an effect would then extend its base duration.

Additionally, I'd like to toss out a subject for some discussion: duration of controls. What do you think is a good ratio of up/down time for controls? For instance, were CoH's far too long? What are some systems that you felt made controls too brief? I personally felt GW2's mez effects are pitifully short for their duration and recharge.

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Every single layer of mez is

Every single layer of mez is a new status effect (the difference of the layer amount and the amount of mez applied. So if I apply a mez of 2000 and your first layer of mez protection is 1250MP then I've applied a mez the magnitude of 750MP on the target.

If you have fewer layers of mez protection it will take stronger mezzers to break that armor but once they do you're at risk of being mezzed for quite sometime before your armor is back up instead of having the neccesary cooldown of mez effects to the next layer of protection.

At least that's how I envision it.. the actual practicality of this system will depend on actual gameplay.

**I'm workin on the assumption that the average player will cast mez of about 1000 MP and a great mezzer would be able to cast closer to 3000 and weaker mezzers (melee users who need to be able to slow targets) would have closer to 500+ mez.. these are abitrary numbers**

A controller will almost always have enough Mez to get SOME status effect (even if it's only a slow instead of a root or fatigue or a full stun). Multiple mezzers will be able to easily break enemy armor tiers but single mezzers can accumulate the Mez needed to achieve the desired effects too.

But my goal is that the MAGNITUDE of the mez is tiered and the RESISTANCE is tiered. You could take many smaller Mez powers that accumulate without too many cooldowns or keep that one big shot of Mez that has a longer cooldown.. but in the end your Mezzer gameplay is never irrelevant (in PvE bosses or PvP especially). I hate how irrelevant they are in CO and how DCUO turns you from controller to "team battery". I don't play a debuffer to become something else when the fight starts to get good.

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mrketch wrote:
mrketch wrote:

Perhaps a better way to address mez would be for each type of mez to have it's own scale. This would allow the combining of similar effects; for instance, movement slows would scale into full on immobilizes or chance to interrupt power activation would scale into a full on stun that prevented 100% of activations. Other powers could remain distinct; for example, confusion would remain as a chance to attack allies but would scale from a small percentage to a full 100% or sleep would carry a drowsy effect that would carry a percent chance to reapply the sleep after initially broken. In such a system, perhaps exceeding 100% of an effect would then extend its base duration

I advocated for this somewhere on the forum. Three kinds of Debuffs:

1) Movement debuffs - Slow (0-100%).. at 100% of tier one the target is Rooted, Fatigue (the cast times between casts gets greater 0-100%) so now they are still and cant shoot they are "Stunned" and cannot cast attacks anything that goes above that threshold is time-based.

2) Perception Debuffs - Accuracy (0-100%) at 100% accuracy the caster placated the target (CO term placate where the caster is visible but not targetable, Blind - The visibility of the target gets closer and closer range 0-100% at 100% the target can not SEE the enemy targets and becomes "Confused" where friendly targets become targetable

3) Magnitude debuffs - These are the debuffs that turn a 3000HP attack into a 500 HP attack and are almost directly correlated to the amount of debuff MP casted by the caster (with diminishing returns) on the caster. If you've been debuffed with 2000MP then the percentage is set to maybe 30%.. but even theo the DR is steep this now allows for MULTIPLE mezzers to mez the same target making the enemy basically shoot pillows.

Some status effects (Sleep especially) would remain binary. But the majority of the system would be dynamic and based on the amount of MP casted on the target. The magnitude of the MP is what would matter and the time would be RELATIVELY static (standard 4s duration but with some MAJOR investment the highest possible should be 7-8s and that means stonger mez gets longer cooldowns as tradeoff.. with resistance (armors) you can also reduce the time between mezzes.

I hope I've articulated what I hope to see but I'm not going to be completely butthurt if it's not exactly what I want. Long as it's dynamic and most of all FUN.

- -

The reason I cannot stand binary status effects is because it removes all incentive for Controllers to team together and that is what I hope to avoid. If you see a team of Mezzers coming at you ought be afraid.. just as afraid as you'd be seeing a team of pure DPS targeting you or a team of tanks holding their ground.

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mrketch wrote:
mrketch wrote:

I agree with you that different types of mez lose their distinctiveness in JB's initially proposed system. It also creates a problem with incorporating different types of mezzes. For instance, where would you place confusion (as in the CoH variety which allowed movement but forced enemies to target their allies)? Likewise, Sleep would present a problem with the sudden interjection of a mez that is broken on damage. Would it then simply revert to an immobilize?

I think the more important part of JayBezz's proposal is the fact that mez is something a player can influence, both in attack and defence. He wants to expand on the way mez worked in CoX....splitting duration of mez and magnitude of mez into separate catagories, the end result is a way to numerically state my controller's mez powers are better than a scrappers mez or even another controller.

The system he is proposing is overly complicated in my opinion. A much simpler way to do what he is asking is to just use the enhancement system and include two new enhancement types...mez duration and mez mag....they can be used to improve the resistance of a mez or to improve the power of a mez. If you think a scrappers mez should not be able to be as powerful as a controllers then his mez powers can't slot it. You want to be required to hit a foe with multiple mez powers before he is mezed then raise their mez resistance (as they did for foes in CoX) this whole 'my mez applies 2000 power and you resist 1250' idea is not needed in my opinion.

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I understand and hear what

I understand and hear what you are saying about MPS as a system but disagree.

How is it any more complex a system than damage and damage mitigation?

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

I think the more important part of JayBezz's proposal is the fact that mez is something a player can influence, both in attack and defence. He wants to expand on the way mez worked in CoX....splitting duration of mez and magnitude of mez into separate catagories, the end result is a way to numerically state my controller's mez powers are better than a scrappers mez or even another controller.
The system he is proposing is overly complicated in my opinion. A much simpler way to do what he is asking is to just use the enhancement system and include two new enhancement types...mez duration and mez mag....they can be used to improve the resistance of a mez or to improve the power of a mez. If you think a scrappers mez should not be able to be as powerful as a controllers then his mez powers can't slot it. You want to be required to hit a foe with multiple mez powers before he is mezed then raise their mez resistance (as they did for foes in CoX) this whole 'my mez applies 2000 power and you resist 1250' idea is not needed in my opinion.

JayBezz's system is fairly straight forward to me. CoX's system used the same basic idea (minus the dynamic nature). Most holds were magnitude 3; minions had 1 magnitude of protection (or resistance in JB's terms). Mezzes subtracted from a mob's protection until it dropped below 0 then the mob was mezzed. Dominate, for example, applied a mag 3 hold that reduced a minion to -2 and held them. A boss though was only reduced to 0 and needed a second application. Where CoX may have faltered was that mezzes rarely deviated from a magnitude of 2, 3, or 4 though the system was capable of utilizing non-whole numbers (Mesmerize, for instance, was a mag 3.5 sleep). Extending and adding variety to the scale wouldn't have been a monumental task, but would have required more version of the same powers.

I had once been told by Arcana at one point that CoX's engine was unfortunately limited in how it dealt with mez. If a power had a variable magnitude in it's secondary effect then it must have a fixed duration and vice versa. Sonic Cage and Detention Bubble provide the odd example of mezzes that could be enhanced for magnitude (via Hami-Os) but had a fixed duration. "What about dominators?", you might ask. In domination, they actually applied two separate mez effects at the same time.

Personally, I think the biggest failing in the CoX system was the way AV mez protection was handled. Fifty points of mez protection often trivialized the controls of a single control AT on the team. It would have been more enjoyable if that protection waxed and waned, rather than utilizing a simple on/off state.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I understand and hear what you are saying about MPS as a system but disagree.
How is it any more complex a system than damage and damage mitigation?

You actually don't cause my issue is not really with your MPS. I really did not want to get into this, I was just responding to another post directed at me.

In any case, my issue isn't entirely with the MPS, as CoX basically used this system already. I am not a fan of the numbers you are using but that's not my real issue. My issue was more on the entire tiered mez system and how it complicates the combat process.

Control powers are a form of crowd management, similar to aggro management. For ease of play they operated as simple as they could. You have high enough level of control or aggro it worked, not enough keep applying it. What you are proposing is to take that simplicity away from one mechanic, the mez and make it a more involved job. I do not like that idea. I feel much of what you want can be done in a simpler way.

The game was a combat game, the only way to win a fight was damage. Its an easily understood concept made even easier with the visuals of combat. There was a health bar you could watch progress, you could see your own health ect. The mechanics of this was hidden but the overall idea was obvious. A player knew he was damaging a foe by the health bar going down he knew how much damage he was taking with his health bar. It did not matter the foe once you were engaged in the combat you could see how well you were progressing.

In your system you would not get this easily viewed progress (unless you are proposing a mez bar under the healthbar which I am not a fan of). In a small combat it would be easy to keep track of this but in larger ones it would not. You will not always know how many mez applications it took to root the foe so you would not know how many more you need to progress to the next step. You will not always be aware how many mez effects are on you so you won't know how many you can still take. It complicates a combat more than I wish to see.

Still I looked at many of the things you seemed to want this proposal of yours to provide and offered a simpler option.
I know how much you like the control characters. I know how your proposal would improve the game for you. But it would not improve it for me and in fact worsen my experience when I play a control character. So sadly we are at opposite ends of this discussion which is why I had bowed out earlier as any arguments I have are nothing more than personal opinion.

This doesn't even touch on the fact that I don't like character who do not have an armor powerset to have too much mez resistance.

I answered your question....Now its my turn. What would my proposal (the second one) not give you that you want other than tiered mez?

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mrketch wrote:
mrketch wrote:

JayBezz's system is fairly straight forward to me. CoX's system used the same basic idea (minus the dynamic nature).

I get the math. It uses larger numbers than I think it needs but its not the math I have the issue with. Its the system itself....I prefer it to be simple in its application....on/off. Being able to hold that one foe you want to as easily as you could in CoX. At first I offered a counter proposal based on just the tiered concept that kept what I liked and still offered what I thought was the greatest desire. When he replied I read a bit closer and understood he wanted more so I stated I did not want it and said I could offer nothing more than personal opinion as to why. .
I do get some people want a more in depth control system, I do not. I liked it the way it was.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

mrketch wrote:
JayBezz's system is fairly straight forward to me. CoX's system used the same basic idea (minus the dynamic nature).

I get the math. It uses larger numbers than I think it needs but its not the math I have the issue with. Its the system itself....I prefer it to be simple in its application....on/off. Being able to hold that one foe you want to as easily as you could in CoX. At first I offered a counter proposal based on just the tiered concept that kept what I liked and still offered what I thought was the greatest desire. When he replied I read a bit closer and understood he wanted more so I stated I did not want it and said I could offer nothing more than personal opinion as to why. .
I do get some people want a more in depth control system, I do not. I liked it the way it was.

To each their own. I expect CoT will probably remain very close to the system laid out in CoX if, for no other reason, familiarity for the players. Relying on that ground work, there are a few tweaks to the system that I'd like to see: the aforementioned change to AV protections, a greater variety of magnitude, and perhaps a decrease in mez durations. These could all be attained through balance tweaks rather than changes to the system itself. The only real addition would be some kind of break out mechanism more dynamic than CoH's breakfrees.

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Binary system is an automatic

Binary system is an automatic no thank you for me.

Binary status effects that are binary are often turned completely off in boss fights because there is no alternative .. hate that.. also they have to be treated differently in PvE than PvP .. hate that

Also teaming with other mezzers shouldn't be a pain.

The handling of crowd control is the #1 concern for me in this game. If I find that it is made of binary status effects I will likely not play it for long. Not for lack of love, but gameplay is what keeps me engaged in MMOs. I have been waiting to bring my super powered concept back to life where I am not a marginalized class. I don't think that's any worse than asking that a DPS class do high damage or that a tanking class have high threat..

Because it is a full role, control shouldn't be marginalized to a simple "on" or "off".. much less "off" all the time in boss/PvP fights.

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mrketch wrote:
mrketch wrote:

Personally, I think the biggest failing in the CoX system was the way AV mez protection was handled. Fifty points of mez protection often trivialized the controls of a single control AT on the team. It would have been more enjoyable if that protection waxed and waned, rather than utilizing a simple on/off state.

The PToD did made you feel like a badass once you cleared the mag 50 protection when you broke it. I always thought it was funny you had to stack 15-17 holds to mez a AV, but one sleep attack (like mesmerize) will actually CC an AV as long no one attacks them.

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Hello all,

Hello all,

The problem with control effects in COX the way I saw it was, as JayBezz stated either on or off. I like the idea of holds having values which have cumulative effects. These are great ideas. I like them very much.
The more I think about it the more I believe that control should be more like damage. After a roll to hit the target you could subtract the amount of control resist and apply the rest to a value calculated from your hit points (not the same as Hit Points but say some figured characteristic based on Hit Points). Call this value what you want but for the sake of discussion I'll call it Constitution. Since it is figured off of hit points, then toons and mobs having more hit points will have more Constitution. So it could work as follows.

1. All control effects minus control resist are cumulative and subtracted from Constitution (Just like all damage minus damage resist is cumulative and subtracted from Hit Points).
2. Target is hit by control effect.
3. Amount of control minus amount of control resist equals amount subtracted from Constitution.
3. If Constitution of target is lowered to half then target is slowed by 50%.
4. If Constitution of target is lowered to 25% then target is rooted.
5. If Constitution is lowered to zero or a negative then target is held.

But here is the hook. Give Constitution regeneration like Hit Points have. So once a target has recovered to a positive number of Constitution it is no longer held. Above 25% and they are no longer rooted. And above 50% they are no longer slowed.
This is just an example, you could tweak the percentages the resistances and the recovery amounts and call it anything you want. You could even use buffs and debuffs to raise and lower control resists and the amount of Constitution and how quickly it recovers to balance it all out. Heck, I suspect this game mechanic could even be applied to PVP and PVE alike and might make them consistent with each other so that toons play the same in both with respect to status effects regardless of which environment they are in. Although this last sentence is purely speculative on my part, I can't see it making PVP any worse than it was in COX. And if you consider being able to buff and debuff these values it might make for very interesting and synergetic team play adding to the depth and entertainment of combat all around. And it might even make fighting AV's more than just punching huge bags of oozing Hit Points.

Obviously Sleep and Confuse would have to be handled separately and you could even have different resists for different status effects much like each damage type could have there own resist values in COX. That way all mez types could be separate. As far as not having a mez bar on targets to know exactly how much Constitution or whatever you have left, I think it would add a little mystery to the game =) I like JayBezz's idea a lot. So much so, I kinda ran with it 0.o Sorry JayBezz for stealing your thunder, but it is such a good idea I had to run with it and expand it.....it made my mind swim with the possibility of something great. I think you are on to something here.

Please remember that this is all just an idea but it just might be an alternative to dealing with the on or off status effects that were in COX. If it is too complicated or the DEVs think it stinks, then so be it. I sure did have fun with the thought though, thanks for anyone who takes the time to read this post objectively.

I reserve the right to have an opinion. You reserve the right not to agree.

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I like your expansion a lot

I like your expansion a lot Follies. I really hope that Titans is a game where the Controller role is as engaging as DPS and Tanking. Suggestions like these really help turn the boring math into something that translates into "fun".

With any crowd control/debuffing system the resistances to said system is vital to get right. I like that your idea expands on how the thresholds for status effects differ.

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One thing I'm not fond of in

One thing I'm not fond of in this sort of system is the progression of some status effects. I understand the logic of slow > immobilize > hold, but I have the feeling that it would leave me wanting in actual gameplay. For instance, you see a dangerous enemy and you want it held; however, your powers are only strong enough to immobilize it. It may leave a player feeling their controls are a bit ineffectual. I always viewed holds as primarily damage mitigation rather than movement control. I think I would prefer something along the lines of chance to interrupt > stun and leave holds as powers that worked on both scales at once.

As for the idea of constitution and its regeneration, that's an idea I could get behind. As mentioned before, I strongly disliked the PToD in CoX. To me it would have been far more appealing if it gradually grew and shrank throughout the fight, rather than simply burying the needle at 50 or 0.

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No I disagree with your first

No I disagree with your first paragraph. Although you may dislike a tiered system the alternative is to cast a control effect and it has NO effect. I'd rather feel more ineffective than completely useless.

After someone is slowed enough to be rooted their casts get higher cooldowns/cast times which IS damage mitigation. IF they cast slower that is fewer attacks per second (and the character being controlled doesn't feel completely useless either).

Also by having holds (complete immobilization) be the top tier status effect it keeps the idea of a character completely helpless as a rare occurrence. PvE and PvP both need to remember that no one likes the absolutes. We want to feel super powered but that doesn't mean it should be easy.

If you're a "bad controller" there should be a system in place where you can increase your effectiveness.. just the same as if you're a "bad DPSer". That doesn't mean we should make an "auto-kill" button for DPS any more than it means we should make an "Auto-freeze" button for Controllers.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

No I disagree with your first paragraph. Although you may dislike a tiered system the alternative is to cast a control effect and it has NO effect. I'd rather feel more ineffective than completely useless.

I'm afraid you're quite mistaken because I am in favor of a tiered system. My only objection is this specific organization of mez effects. As primarily a CoX player, I see immobilizes and holds as functionally different things: one is for controlling movement and mob placement, the other is for damage mitigation. A more appropriate tiered system, I think, would begin with a power that disrupts power activations or only allows enemies to retaliate when struck, beginning at a base chance of around 50% and scaling up with more investment and growth. .

Quote:

After someone is slowed enough to be rooted their casts get higher cooldowns/cast times which IS damage mitigation. IF they cast slower that is fewer attacks per second (and the character being controlled doesn't feel completely useless either).

In your initial post, you stated that you wished to see crowd controls and debuffs kept as separate mechanisms. However, this system is merging together debuffs which slow (recharge or activation and movement) and the crowd control. As you said (and I quite agree) crowd control is damage mitigation; it will be very difficult to maintain a separation of debuffs and crowd controls in a tiered system. Additionally, this raises the question of what kind of damage mitigating leads into a Hold. Why slow rather than to hit and damage debuffs or activation interrupts?

Conceptually, slow into immobilize into hold makes a lot of sense for somethings; for instance, an enemy that is chilled until frozen or encrusted with dirt until they're encased in stone. However, there are either conceptual frameworks that it doesn't fit as well. For example, a character that delivers an electrical jolt that disrupts the enemy's motor functions. For something like this, I could see activation interrupts as a more suiting effect.

Perhaps, the answers is for each set to have its own set of mechanics that culminate in a Hold. A darkness themed set may combine fear, blindness, and accuracy debuffs; while an electric set may drain energy and interrupt activation; and cold affects recharge, activations, and movement speed.

Quote:

Also by having holds (complete immobilization) be the top tier status effect it keeps the idea of a character completely helpless as a rare occurrence. PvE and PvP both need to remember that no one likes the absolutes. We want to feel super powered but that doesn't mean it should be easy.
If you're a "bad controller" there should be a system in place where you can increase your effectiveness.. just the same as if you're a "bad DPSer". That doesn't mean we should make an "auto-kill" button for DPS any more than it means we should make an "Auto-freeze" button for Controllers.

I believe it was Statesman that said "nobody wants to play City of Statues". However, the popularity of the controller and dominator ATs provide direct evidence of how wrong he was in that regard. There is a far cry from feeling ineffectual and feeling superpowered, just as there is from feeling superpowered and being granted an instant win button. Even if crowd control takes the top prize for damage mitigation (while vying for shelf space alongside buffs and debuffs), it's still only that. Holding an enemy indefinitely only feels satisfying until you realize you haven't got the tools to actually defeat him. Even if the crowd control specialists are given an "auto-freeze" button, it's only pausing the game until someone comes along to finish it.

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mrketch wrote:
mrketch wrote:

Perhaps, the answers is for each set to have its own set of mechanics that culminate in a Hold. A darkness themed set may combine fear, blindness, and accuracy debuffs; while an electric set may drain energy and interrupt activation; and cold affects recharge, activations, and movement speed.

Now we're thinking! Great idea! While I hate the idea of frameworks limiting my damage type I don't have any issue with them defining the tiers of control benefit. This is a supremely good idea to me.

Now if only I can make sure the ones I really love are available for electric damage and radio waves.

EDIT: After much thought I realized that the amount of MP on any target need to be cumulative from different players in order to make a MPS system that works on par with a DPS system. It'll take some thought on how such a system can be cumulative for multiple Commander Role players attacking one target.. Still think it's a great idea in concept but how to apply it in Titans is up in the air.

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It would be cool if every

It would be cool if every class had a small list of powers they could still use while Mezed. Like Stalwart Taunts and such.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

in order to make a MPS system that works on par with a DPS system.

This seems awfully complicated. Are you suggesting that critters are arrested when mez health is reduced to zero? Somebody above already mentioned needing a mez bar in addition to a health bar. Until there are multiple ways to arrest critters, DPS and health reduction in general is king. Overly-complicating a subsystem is just... overly complicated. Maybe I just don't understand.

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I'm in wildstar.. enjoying it

I'm in wildstar.. enjoying it.

But yet again there are flat debuffs (movement speed included). I can use stats to increase my damage. I can use stats to increase my heals. But there is no mechanic for me to be able to focus my builds efficacy in crowd control. Know why?

because no matter whether I am level 2 or level 50 i still do a 2s hold. Stats don't affect it, gear won't affect it, there's no metric of which to measure it. So basically I have a character who 1) doesn't NEED stats and 2) has all of these arbitrary stat numbers that mean zero to the performance.

Damage over Time,
Heals over Time

There are two metrics.. Health points and time. If you're focusing on lengthening the time of a combat (crowd control) and less on the Health points of combat (hurting or healing) then the game MUST be set up for your character to grow just as damage grows, just as heals grow.

This is why we need a weighted, metric Mez system that takes "mez points" and "mez resistance" into effect. Games that keep the "time" portion of the equation as a constant are games that are unwelcoming to crowd control classes and players that enjoy them.

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I like this general idea a

I like this general idea a lot, and it plays into a lot of complaints that I think people had about CC in CoX. The idea of having tiers from slow, to imob, to hold is a great idea.

However, if I'm understanding you correctly, if you break them apart, you'll end up compelling control-themes, where the different mez-types can't be combined to establish a fast hold. This would be bad, IMO, as different types of controls would be dissuaded from teaming togeather.

My variation is to have 3 true "mez" tiers only between the different sets, slow, immobilize, and hold. However, each control set applies its own distinct stacking debuff in addition to the mez effect. This would allow the different sets to have their own flavor while still allowing them to synergize together consistently.

For instance, you have 3 different sets, Ice, Dark, and Plant. They each have a "mez" of magnitude 3.

Each magnitude applied to a given monster applies a movement speed slow of 10%. When Magnitude 5 is reached (50% slow), it triggers the "immobilize" effect, From magnitude 6-9, the mob's range is decreased by 10% per magnitude, and when magnitude 10 is reached, the monster is fully held. Until "Hold" status is achieved, the mez magnitude itself has 0 effect on the monster's use of powers/attacks, only movement.

However, The ice powers apply a debuff to cooldowns, Dark debuffs ToHit, and Plant debuffs defense(dodge).

Meanwhile, Monsters have a native "mez regen" where they loose Magnitude of applied mez based on their monster level. Minions loose 1 point per 30 seconds, LTs loose 1 point per 20 seconds, and Bosses loose 1 point per 10 seconds. This means that a monster will never go directly from being held to chasing after your back-line teammates, and will have to "bleed off" the CC applied to them, gradually becoming a threat to the team again.

Disclaimer: All numbers applied are arbitrary for clarity, and do not necessarily represent actual desired values for powers.

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This is something I'd love to

This is something I'd love to play, really.

But I think it would be more fitting if there were some other path's those mez effects could progress.
Like for darkness powers first a to hit debuff, then blindness and then fear. Or the same, just ending in confusion for illusion. Some sets like electricity could apply a shocked condition, wich lowers defense before ending in stunning the foe.

That way each set would feel a lot more unique. They could even contain two or three methods of locking a foe down, remember that we have eight powers per set to think of.

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Sand_Trout wrote:
Sand_Trout wrote:

Meanwhile, Monsters have a native "mez regen" where they loose Magnitude of applied mez based on their monster level. Minions loose 1 point per 30 seconds, LTs loose 1 point per 20 seconds, and Bosses loose 1 point per 10 seconds. This means that a monster will never go directly from being held to chasing after your back-line teammates, and will have to "bleed off" the CC applied to them, gradually becoming a threat to the team again.

Except EB, AVs, etc.. that POP the Tier 9 defense power that grants them INSTA Mez resistance to a certain Mez effect. :)

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That's fine for Slow/Immob

That's fine for Slow/Immob/Hold, but what about Sleep? And, why can't I just activate a Hold power on my enemy and Hold them? Are you saying that I have to spam my powers and progress upwards from Slow?

Frankly, my Preference would be to work the progression in the Opposite direction. I 'cast' Hold, To-Hit and Hold Magnitude indicate I was successful, but the target has Mez Resistance, which downgrades the final effect to Immobilize (or Slow). So I quickly cycle another Mez, perhaps Immobilize, and that stacks enough additional effect to lock the Hold.

Alternately, I toss a Sleep on the crowd and they all go into dreamland. However, one of my teammates gets a little close to one of the victims and wake them up. The awakened enemy has a couple seconds of Slow, from being groggy, but pulls himself together before my teammate notices and goes on the offensive. With a grimace of annoyance and effort, I slam a Confuse on the awakened enemy, who grins idiotically and follows the team out of the room and down the hall.

After we've been gone for a bit, the sleeping crowd wakes up and resumes business as usual, none the wiser for the encounter... except one says, "Hey, where's Tim?" "I think he went to the bathroom." "Oh, okay."

A Controller's 'job' has a lot of strategy and tactics involved and their heavy-hitting effects should not be nerfed just for some principle of progression.

Be Well!
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What you're describing,

What you're describing, fireheart, is my concept but simply with different magnitudes associated. Resistance or different "mez points" (as opposed to hit points) is also not out of the questions when dealing with it.

I'm not discounting the possibility of a magnitude 5, 10, or 161,786,151,645 mezzes. The numbers in my description are just arbitrary placeholders for clarity.

Anti-agro powers like the "sleep" and "confluse" you're describing, however, would necessarily be their own thing due to inherently different purposes and modes of operation. However, unless you want to prevent an Ice mezzer from being able to attain "Hold" against a particularly tough AV by combining his powers' effects with Plant mezzer in the party, then you need to give some sort of generic progression of mezz effect leading up to that hold.

Otherwise, you're going to preclude anything but solo mezzers or themed mezzers that have only a single "type" of mezz effect so that they do stack. Redudant, non-themed mezzers would have severely degrading returns on overall party utility due to a lack of stacking.

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The concept of 'combining'

The concept of 'combining' mezzes for enhanced effects is what Controllers had 'Containment' for. A 'Sleep', or a 'Smoke', or other non-aggro-inducing minor mez could be followed-up by a 'harder' mez and the total mez-magnitudes would stack, allowing one to build up to locking-down a Boss or E-Boss. With Containment, the specific 'type' of mez only counted for the last, most recent, application so 'sleep' or 'stun' could be upgraded to 'immobilize' or 'hold'. The only issue was in Duration - if a 'hold' expired while there was still some 'immobilize' duration remaining, then the target would still be immobilized.

And Containment stacked, regardless of the source. There were Defender and even Blaster powers that could 'set' or start the Containment effect, which a Controller could then build on. Multiple Controllers could cascade Containment to staggering effect.

One other 'problem' was with 'Sleep' effects. Any damage would nullify Sleep and Sleep wouldn't, usually, cancel existing Aggro. So you'd have a Controller tossing Sleep on a crowd, only to have a teammate sling an AoE into the same crowd and wake them all up. If the Controller managed to get another Sleep on the enemies, and the team walked away, often the AoE'd group would still have aggro for the one that did the damage when the Sleep eventually wore off and things could get ugly.

The thing is, it wasn't 'Plant-mez' or 'Ice-mez' or 'Illusion-mez'. All Controllers had some combination of Different mez-effects. Containment allowed the stacking of absolute mez-magnitude, but each power had a specific effect and duration, so an enemy might have an 'Immobilize', a 'Hold', and a 'Stun' effect on them at the same time. In that case, the Hold effect would dominate, until it expired. If the Immobilize still had duration remaining, then it would keep the target from changing location and if the Stun was still in effect, then the enemy would be stunned, but unable to wander about, due to the Immobilize.

So, Mez powers didn't 'stack' effects or durations, but they did stack mez-magnitude (which related to how much mez-resistance could be overcome), so power themes and effects did not have to be consistent in a team, in order to be effective.

My expectation is that the same will be true in CoT.

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Fireheart

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I don't care much about the

I don't care much about the specific details of how the mez system works, but a dedicated mezzer should be able to incapacitate large numbers of foes indefinitely, and to make a significant contribution to the defeat of boss-type heavy hitters.

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CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

a dedicated mezzer should be able to incapacitate large numbers of foes indefinitely, and to make a significant contribution to the defeat of boss-type heavy hitters.

In other words ... City of Heroes styled control powers that BITE.

The hard part is allowing controls to "work" on (world) boss-type heavy hitters. In a boolean based system like City of Heroes had, you'll often wind up with the PToD response that "immunizes" those major Foes against controls. But, if controls are allowed to impair even if they don't achieve total lockdown, then controls are still "allowed" to contribute to the flow of the battle in a meaningful way.


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We haven't heard yet about

We haven't heard yet about the number of foes per mob but that greatly factors into what you mean by "Large Numbers". As far as doing them "indefinitely" I'm not against the ABILITY to do this but it should require constant work.. this is an action based game and the idea that casting one hold will turn something into a statue is not as fun as requiring constant targeting/casting.

Not to say there shouldn't be strong holds.. but Some people do well with very strong holds every 12 seconds and others do better with medium holds every 4 seconds. Cooldown time and hold strength usually come at odds of each other but both greatly support holds. (I've never played a game where mez/holds aren't on cool-down)

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Thinking about a few things

Thinking about a few things up-thread...

1) I like the idea of secondary effects playing a greater role in mez. I think that a PC buff and/or a goon debuff could be added to each mez power. Immob could have an accuracy buff for PCs (a stationary object, or one that is becoming stationary is easier to hit) as well as an Attack Speed debuff for goons (a mob will spend more time trying to free itself than attacking an opponent). Each of these buffs could be enhanceable.

2) What if all mez powers had the same magnitude, but also had a "chance to apply 100% mez"? Each would scale with combat level and each would also be enhanceable?

3) JayBezz: if the degree and effect of mez powers were determined via "smooth" curves instead of tiers, how would that change what you are proposing?

4) I'd love more +dmg with my mezzes. OOTB, that is.

5) In the spirit of "build-diversity", and maybe via power pool choices or some equivalent, it would be pretty damn neat if I could roll four Ill/Rad controllers.
One could be developed with a secondary effect/secondary buff or debuff focused career.
One with a damage focused career.
One with a "greater chance to apply 100% mez over more foes than normal" focused career.
And one balanced across all three focuses.

I'm not proposing anything...just taking advantage of a bit of quiet time here at work.

(Currently developing the Sapphire 7 Initiative)

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Catherine America wrote:
Catherine America wrote:

3) JayBezz: if the degree and effect of mez powers were determined via "smooth" curves instead of tiers, how would that change what you are proposing?

I don't quite understand what a smooth curve is..

Catherine America wrote:

4) I'd love more +dmg with my mezzes. OOTB, that is.

For mez to be a its own system there needs to be a qualifying factor to the mez' themselves. So many games have a quantitative measure of mez but finding a qualitative measure is what will differentiate one mez player from another.

Also by having a qualitative mez system you can sacrifice Mez points for Damage points (according to the mathematic baselines set) for more Damage points using whatever modification system is in place.

Catherine America wrote:

5) In the spirit of "build-diversity", and maybe via power pool choices or some equivalent, it would be pretty damn neat if I could roll four Ill/Rad controllers.
One could be developed with a secondary effect/secondary buff or debuff focused career.
One with a damage focused career.
One with a "greater chance to apply 100% mez over more foes than normal" focused career.
And one balanced across all three focuses.
I'm not proposing anything...just taking advantage of a bit of quiet time here at work.

I feel the same. Just as any two DPS builds would not be the same I expect the same kind of build magnification to be diverse in debuffing/crowd control.

I personally will be likely to sacrifice the magnitude if my holds for the ability to lower their cooldown time.
I know my friend is planning on having the strongest holds available to be able to take on the big bosses (Mentella... we will face each other soon!)

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Sorry about that. I read this

Sorry about that. I read this thread over a few hours and I think that I lost track of a few things lol.

Anyways, I was thinking about a more continuous, scaling effect in reference to a smooth curve...an arc or a graph. But I think you talked about it in post #25 above and others did also. The general idea would be to move away from broad "mag spamming" or "excess mag" and toward incrementally, increasing secondary effects as well as mag. So instead of tiers, there'd be one smooth arc...or maybe each attribute/effect gets its own arc. Now you can enhance mag just like mez duration and secondary effect duration...maybe not proportionally; but to the degree which offers other paths to a successful encounter besides spamming mez until the bosses are locked-down, arrest spawn, move on, repeat.

Not sure, I'm making total sense here.

(Currently developing the Sapphire 7 Initiative)

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I do like the idea of being

I do like the idea of being able to invest in other effects that are not directly tied to magnitude (If that's what you are talking about). Things like applying a damage debuff, applying direct damage, a mitigation debuff, and of course stronger mez, or faster cooldowns for mez powers.

I do think that unlike the DPS system, the mez system can be based less on a diminishing returns model because players EXPECT that a character's hit points will grow as they level but I do not think the amount of mez threshold would grow as the character grows. It can be an additive, capped system while HP generally cannot. Allowing multiple mezzers to be additively effective in teams without making Mez an uncapped system of "I can't move"

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A second test, ignore this.

A second test, ignore this.

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Sand_Trout wrote:
Sand_Trout wrote:

I like this general idea a lot, and it plays into a lot of complaints that I think people had about CC in CoX. The idea of having tiers from slow, to imob, to hold is a great idea.
However, if I'm understanding you correctly, if you break them apart, you'll end up compelling control-themes, where the different mez-types can't be combined to establish a fast hold. This would be bad, IMO, as different types of controls would be dissuaded from teaming togeather.
My variation is to have 3 true "mez" tiers only between the different sets, slow, immobilize, and hold. However, each control set applies its own distinct stacking debuff in addition to the mez effect. This would allow the different sets to have their own flavor while still allowing them to synergize together consistently.
For instance, you have 3 different sets, Ice, Dark, and Plant. They each have a "mez" of magnitude 3.
Each magnitude applied to a given monster applies a movement speed slow of 10%. When Magnitude 5 is reached (50% slow), it triggers the "immobilize" effect, From magnitude 6-9, the mob's range is decreased by 10% per magnitude, and when magnitude 10 is reached, the monster is fully held. Until "Hold" status is achieved, the mez magnitude itself has 0 effect on the monster's use of powers/attacks, only movement.
However, The ice powers apply a debuff to cooldowns, Dark debuffs ToHit, and Plant debuffs defense(dodge).
Meanwhile, Monsters have a native "mez regen" where they loose Magnitude of applied mez based on their monster level. Minions loose 1 point per 30 seconds, LTs loose 1 point per 20 seconds, and Bosses loose 1 point per 10 seconds. This means that a monster will never go directly from being held to chasing after your back-line teammates, and will have to "bleed off" the CC applied to them, gradually becoming a threat to the team again.
Disclaimer: All numbers applied are arbitrary for clarity, and do not necessarily represent actual desired values for powers.

Still trying to find that error.

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Are zombies still popular?

Are zombies still popular?

Aaanyway...

Since I don't recall that this idea has been presented yet, I present another thought that has occurred to me. One way to add a wrinkle to a control power is to give it a soft cap, so to speak, which will allow the power to affect more than the "ideal" number of enemies. To use JayBezz's terminology, a particular power might "Stun" up to 6 enemies but, if there are more than 6 enemies, "Fatigue" up to 10 enemies (similar to how an AoE power might spread its damage over however many enemies are within the effect).

I figure it's a bit late to float such ideas with the hopes that they'll be implemented, but I figured I'd see if anyone has any particular opinion on such an approach.

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Ideally, Fez, what *I* would

Ideally, Fez, what *I* would want as a Player amounts to concentric rings (or spheres) of effect, such that the degree of effect is not uniform, and thus is somewhat related to proximity to impact/detonation point.

The entire Max Targets routine is a sort of necessary outcome when you define a volume of effect and declare that everything within that volume has to be uniformly affected. Near or far to the ignition point makes no difference, so long as you're within the blast radius at all. This is a sort of "lazy" way to compute things, and falls under the Physicist vs Engineer Joke.

Physicist: Assume a spherical chicken of uniform density-
Engineer: Hold it right there!

The sort of thing that you're talking about is preferably modeled as a multiple overlapping fields of effect (if continuing to use the "shortcut" method of calculating) or as some sort of inverse r2 relationship for dealing with reduced effects over range.

Note that for reasons of simplicity, most games simply handle ranges as being a sort of boolean "In Range? (Y/N)" before proceeding to the next iterative step. That way, an attack that does 100 damage at 10 meters still does 100 damage at 1000 meters of distance. The "range" part of the calculation is merely a Line of Sight solution and does absolutely nothing with regards to damage and/or accuracy.

As some of us really old timers may recall, in the beginning, "Range" was heralded as the "Defense" (substitute) of the Blaster, where Blasters would suffer fewer penalties when attacking at long ranges. But then once Players figured out the (obvious solution is obvious) way to Hover Snipe with impunity, the Devs decided to ditch that entire strategy by giving NPCs pistols that could shoot farther than sniper rifles (in effect). As a result, Range (as in, long range) offered no meaningful "protection" other than preventing an attack from being made.

So my personal preference is that there be some sort of "Accuracy/Damage/Effect Decay With Range" system worked into City of Titans, such that damage and mez Powers become more effective/reliable at shorter ranges ... but then have a dedicated "Range" Archetype (*cough* Blasters *cough*) for which such penalties are effectively marginalized/mitigated, making them very effective at long ranges. Indeed, I'd even be fine with "flipping the script" for some version of a Long Range Specialist who is great at long distance but becomes less effective up close ... which would essentially be an inverse of the usual pattern of more effective up close with diminishing returns at longer ranges. That way, you wind up with a "true sniper" sort of archetype whose design intent is the Reach Out And Touch You style of engagement from as far away as is practical.

Indeed, take this idea one step further and you wind up with the following range bands:

Sniper
Long
Medium
Short
Melee

Set things up on a "zero sum" for how to advantage things and you wind up with something like this:

Melee Specialist
Sniper: -4
Long: -2
Medium: 0
Short: +2
Melee: +4

Sniper Specialist
Sniper: +4
Long: +2
Medium: +0
Short: -2
Melee: -4

Mid-range Specialist
Sniper: -2
Long: +1
Medium: +2
Short: +1
Melee: -2

Essentially, put "weights" onto the Accuracy, Damage and Effects of Powers depending on how far away the $Target is, such that an attack Power that does 100 Damage doesn't always do 100 Damage at every single range band to $Target. This would make tactical positioning an important consideration, and would be yet another way that characters could differentiate themselves from each other, even if they have the exact same Powersets.

Indeed, this is perhaps one case where I can envision a zero-sum "choose your own advantage/weakness" system being potentially beneficial.


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Also remember to put in

Also remember to put in accounting for target size. Bigger targets mean more folks can get up next to them.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...