Throwing a car basically gives range to a super punch. It should be a power for all the strong guys out there.
Parked cars, cars in the street are destructible objects. grab and throw. (we'll just ignore the soccer mom and her 3 kids--this is justice after all!)
What if the cars in the street are not destructible? OK, in that case this power summons a car to be thrown.
Or better yet...THROW OBJECT. a lot of environmentals are throwable.
of course this power works both ways. it would be fun to see all the flying blasters flee in terror, as a fleet of cars come hurtling in their direction...
and that big ranged bus the giant monster tosses at your team....yeah its gonna hurt so good!
come on Devs...lets do this...it will be fun.
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I am thinkin that anything bigger than a standard car/pick up, like a bus or big-rig would be an AOE type attack.
[I]"dodge this![/I] *throws aircraft carrier"
++SPLAT++
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You know, that's probably what happened to all of the cars and buses in CoH. Got tossed and insurance didn't pay for the replacement.
Hence, all of those empty bus-stops, lots, and parking garages.
Be Well!
Fireheart
This is what would likely happen. Otherwise the devs would have to make certain that there is always enough stuff available to be thrown, lest the power become useless. This may be possible for a single player, but when there are two, three, or more players (if the devs give such an ability to SS they would be hard pressed to deny it to the likes of telekinesis, gravity manipulation, etc.) you'd be looking at [i]a lot[/i] of clutter lying around just in case.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Clearly you never played on a team of 8 Gravity Controllers, all using [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Controller_Control.Gravity_Control.Propel]Propel[/url] ...
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I would have loved to have seen that.
One of my mains was a grav troller and I could make a pretty big mess all on my own!
One of the the things I actually *like* about CO is the destructible environment with many objects that can be picked up and thrown by any player. You don't need a dedicated power set; the higher your strength stat, the bigger the thing you can pick up all the way from park benches to semi trucks. The thrown objects don't stay in the world very long and they respawn pretty quickly and they don't really do enough damage that it becomes a game-breaking advantage to able to (although I have occasionally been disappointed that I can't one-shot a whole pack of minions by hurling a semi at them).
I know we aren't using strength stats like that, but having enough "ammo" lying around for those who have the ability to use it shouldn't be a big issue.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
Rigel wrote: One of the the things I actually *like* about CO is the destructible environment with many objects that can be picked up and thrown by any player. You don't need a dedicated power set; the higher your strength stat, the bigger the thing you can pick up all the way from park benches to semi trucks.
Hmmm, that would be very interesting to see in CoT. It definitely makes sense, although if done wrong it could get lots of hate
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
...assuming something like that was put in place I would absolutely LOOOVE to see TK based folks be able to pick stuff up too. :)
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I was just thinking about GTA5, you can clutter up a pile of 30 cop cars and leave, another person rolls up 5 minutes later and nothing is there. If you had it on a time basis in the "real world" and just instance based with the missions I think it could be fairly easily done. It could also work with your accuracy stats as well. I don't think the heft of the object has to matter that much. Because if you have a smaller object like a baseball that can be thrown a lot faster and harder would hurt a lot more than a boulder that you can barely lift and toss. If you have enough strength stats that you can hurl it with the same velocity than that is a different story.
I think how hard you throw it and where it hits the enemy are the more important factors. More accuracy deals the damage to the more vital areas(if that is how CoT enemies are going to work(which is a whole other question entirely)) like the head or heart. And more strength adds more damage to the blow of course.
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
I often commented that I wanted a Grav Controller around to decorate my house lol
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Just tinkering with the idea of a Power that requires "environmental ammo" in order to use it (such as chucking vehicles). Essentially what you're dealing with is a "stand here to use" conditional requirement for a Power. That way, the Power can only be used from certain spots. The second thing you need to take care of is that the "ammo" available in specific locations isn't infinite (once you chuck that car, it's kinda rare to get it back for a second heave in short order).
One way that I can imagine defining such a Throw Car Power would be as something which has a relatively low Recharge time, but which requires the character to be located within proximity to a "resource node" that hasn't been used recently. The Recharge time on the "resource node" (in this case, a vehicle, most likely parked and therefore empty) ought to be relatively high (such as 1-2 minutes to respawn), setting up a situation in which it's possible to "run out of ammo" for using the Throw Car Power ... assuming you're not in a parking lot full of "resource nodes" all waiting to be used.
Note that such a design for functionality would literally mean that use of the Power would be situation dependent. It would also mean that use of the Power would require movement to wherever the "ammo" is to be thrown, making the Power even more situational. It would also mean that there would be environments in which the Power is useless (I'm thinking office spaces filled with cubicles), and others where it might have unanticipated uses (who left this forklift here?). So long as Players understand AND ACCEPT that combination of utility and limitation (not guaranteed!) then there might be "room" for such a Power within City of Titans.
Mind you, it might be fun to create destructible environments in which ONLY the use of this sort of Power was capable of actually destroying the environment. Sort of a "you must be this strong to wreck this place sufficiently" kind of deal.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Alternatively, it could be a twist on the hurl boulder power. Normal use throws a rock/other piece of the floor, like the boulder form CoH. It doesn't really interact with the enviorment in this case, it's just an animation. However, when you're near a throwable object, the computer detects it and you throw that, instead. This could cause some bonus damage, at the penalty of a slightly longer animation time, perhaps? But it would make a normally okay power situationally better, and that might be more balanced than a VERY situational power.
This could be spread to similar powers. Something like a gravity controller just hurls a nearby object instead of summoning one. A giant monster can throw cars or it's usual ranged option. Summon tentacles or vines and they detect physics objects and they wrap around them and hoist them into the air slightly... preventing them from being used, perhaps?
Under Construction...
If you want to go in that direction, you would have the potential to hurl {insert variety of objects} chosen from lookup tables keyed to the environment. It would be the visual equivalent of changing what your footsteps sound like on different types of ground. Most games have a variety of walking/running sound FX so as to match the environment. Sand, pavement, carpets, grass, dirt, concrete, metal gratings, metal plates, stairs, etc. etc. etc. All of those footstep sound FX are keyed to the environment so as to match.
Do something similar for the hurled particle of a Throw Power and one of the [i]possible options[/i] would be a car when in an appropriate locations ... such as a parking lot.
You'd be able to get away with a pretty small variety of objects for a "tear up the street" kind of Power akin to what [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Tanker_Melee.Super_Strength.Hurl]Hurl[/url] did. The "always available default" would be a big flat(ish) piece of rock that's mostly dirt (so it can shatter on impact into little bits). Alternates could include a bit flat(ish) piece of concrete, a big flat(ish) bit of asphalt road with some of the limestone roadbed underneath still clinging to the blacktop, entire pieces of office furniture (for indoor office maps), wooden crates, wooden boxes and wooden shipping pallets (for those ubiquitous indoor warehouse maps) ... and, of course, entire vehicles if using the Power in "certain locations" where such (ammo?) would be available.
Game mechanically speaking, the Power would work the same in all locations provided the character is standing on a surface (ie. not Flying, Jumping or Swimming). The only difference would be the graphics and the sound FX when using the Power. The list I've provided above would cover ... say ... 10-12 varieties of Stuff To Chuck™, which wouldn't seem to be an exhaustively long list of options. The bugaboo though would be the amount of extra work involved in accounting for those variables in what amounts to every location within the game. I'm sure there would be ways to simplify the process of assigning the definitions and getting the whole mess to work right, but it seems to be a heck of a lot of extra effort for what essentially boils down to eye and ear candy.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
The LEGO games did it, oddly enough. In LEGO marvel heroes, at least, if you're playing a large character and hold the special button (iirc) the character will rip up some of the ground. You get different rocks for pavement, dirt, and stone, and it fails if used on metal or sand (but with different animations). Obviously in this case we don't want a fail result, but we know it's possible. If nothing else, they could assign it by map or zone.
Plus, extra effort for eye and ear candy is a lot of what CoT has planned. Choosing animations? A hyper-extensive character customizer? I'm not going to call it 'no expense spared', but you can't say they aren't going the extra mile.
...the idea of hurling a cubicle at someone hard enough to knock them down makes me smile.
Under Construction...
No, no they wouldn't have to supply enough cars. The powers are independent, and, quite frankly, if TK relied solely on environmental objects, so be it. Let hurling those objects be a mighty attack, and when it dries up, you are left with what your other powers.
Stop designing games in that way and make real worlds instead and let things fall as they may.
Soooooooooo sick of magic tk or force (or Force, for that matter) ripping up imaginary rockes or cement chunks from the ground and hurling it. This includes strength hurl boulder stuff.
If you wanna give a melee a cheap ranged for utility, make it throwing a rock from your pocket. If you wanna give a tk a powerful ranged pop, make it a TK force construct. Stop pulling in imaginary junk that doesn't exist in the environment.
I remember in CoH early days, seeing a tk hurl a car at someone, and I ran out and made a SS tanker. Later I found out you could not pick up cars and throw them. How lazy, I thought. How late 1990s of a power set design.
As a principle: let the environmental immersion be in charge and don't let the tail wag the dog by some misdesigned tk power needing an imaginary car wreck use of real cars.
And let it pack a real punch, too. Don't worry about balance.
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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.
It might be a nightmare for the devs, but I *think* I agree.
Let me choose the power, go find, grab, and use a car if it's present and then get a truly epic payoff for choosing all of that time and hassle.
But, when there isn't an environmental weapon around, I'm SOL--but that's ameliorated by the fact that I can frickin assassinate someone by burning both the power choice and the ingame time to go find a semi truck to piledrive them with it.
Good fun. So, of course, typical gamers will be outraged.
What can you do?
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
And what about the Owner of that truck? Are you going to pay him for the use of his property? What about the Cargo in the truck? Are you going to drag that semi-truck all around town, looking for a bad-guy to use it on? What if your enemy is in an Instance? How are you going to fit your weaponized semi-truck through the door?
Once you've smashed your truck against your enemy, who cleans up the shattered remains? And, if your enemy is invulnerable to smashing damage, or clever enough to Dodge your giant, slow-moving weapon, then you've wasted all of that effort for nothing.
The advantage of the 'magically appearing object' is that one does Not have to spend all day hunting for something that you will need for five seconds of dramatic license.
Because, if you really think about it, a truck is a Terrible weapon. It's a large, hollow BOX designed to move other things with. It is made to be as Light as possible, so that it is cheaper to move the contents of the box. These boxes have to be carefully and specially reinforced, so they can be carefully picked up by a large crane. If a super-strong person tried to pick one up in the usual fashion, it would come apart in their hands.
And, if all of that makes me a 'typical outraged gamer', then so be it.
Be Well!
Fireheart
DC Universe actually did this very well, and that's aside from just being able to pick up world objects and toss them.
They had a TK power that would pick up a mob and hold them, and that would do its own damage. But if there was an object nearby--didn't necessarily have to be a truck, or vehicle of any sort, just random largish debris--then it would pick that up as well and throw it at your opponent for crazy damage. I still remember the first time I killed ten Brainiac bots with a bus that just happened to be in range.
Um ... okay? THAT right there is a slippery slope (watch your step).
The "don't worry" part is NOT recommended!
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
have to agree with Redlynne..."don't worry about balance" and my red flags are flyin up with a quickness. while I would love to see TK be able to grab stuff and toss it around, I think there needs to be some sort of balance else this "don't worry about balance" could slip into other parts of the game. regarding tossed items (by any means) specifically, I would say make the damage comparable to the size of the object. I would also put weight limits on what one can actually pick up...the higher in level you get the more you could pick up. meaning a level 1 hero might not be able to pick up a bus but a level 50 could. effectively damage still scales to level.
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Using vehicles and surroundings as weapons always was and is a classic convention in the greater comic book genera from which the game will draw (http://www.comicbooked.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/action_comics_1.jpeg). And this exact type of power exists in both extant Superhero MMORPG's.
That's exactly why this thread exists.
Your criticism may be valid in reference to the greater genre, but it doesn't seem to be valid in reference to this particular idea in this particular game.
That's the whole point of making the power very highly damaging. Risk vs reward. The reward (damage) has to be worth the effort and risk. And this doesn't have to be the only SS throw-type power in the game. So, if you don't like the risk/reward ratio of the power--or that particular type of lack of realism in the greater genera, for that matter--just don't take that power.
True, but "hammerspace" is even less realistic for a Super Strength character than the lack of real-world repercussions of throwing an existing car, so it unravels your previous argument about lack-of-realism except to say that you prefer one type of lack-of-realism over another.
Or perhaps more to the point, one game mechanic over another. Though, while sometimes necessary for game design, hammerspace (except as an explicit power) is a convention more appropriate to Looney Tunes than to classic Superhero comics.
True and I agree, but not so for a car, and not all trucks are cargo trucks--and besides all of that, same as above. It's a classic genera convention and so your statement is valid as a criticism of the larger genera, but not as a criticism of this particular power in this particular game (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJGjCTFbAPk at 2:40).
It really just states which type of un-realism you prefer. Which is fair enough in that context.
My fault, I wasn't clear there.
That gibe was probably ill advised because it's neither a fair generalization about gamers nor worth the accidental obfuscation it created.
What I was referring to was people who want to have their cake and eat it too. Wanting the high damage of the attack but not the hassle. Which is of course not what you were talking about at all.
Anywho, so, where are we? If I understand correctly, you like the unrealism of hammerspace better than the unrealism of using vehicles and other large property in the environment with impunity. And you think it's a better game mechanic in this instance.
Again, fair enough, and I'll still happily play if that's the chosen mechanic. It just wouldn't be my personal preference.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Hammer space?
Is that like Hammer Time!? ;D
I wonder if we can repurpose those CoH/V lvl 50 police Drones into more compact drones that follow us and materialize weapons when you press a power. ;)
get it spidey!
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Heh.
A power that doesn't just consume Endurance to use.
It also costs IGC to pay for the damages incurred ...
I'm joking, of course ... but then, am I really?
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
heh...I actually wouldn't have a problem with that...IGC fines levied for damage to public property. although, I can hear the masses screamin how unfair it is now... man...I kinda wanna see it happen now! hehe
Email received in players In-Box in game:
...there's a possible ingame IGC sink. >:)
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Then again the city could have passed tax for covering super powered incidents. After all there are heroes capable of being called in by the local government, so their insurance coverage of any "collateral" damage from such call-ins must be pretty high. Heck I could see the State Insurance Commissioner calling for Hero Hazard Insurance policies. Far easier than trying to "bill" an unregistered masked person who is still allowed to operate with some measure of athoritative action within the confines of the law, much less those who end up operating wholly out of the law.
Basically, let's not jump down the rabbit's hole of injecting too much realism into what amounts to a modern day fantasy setting.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
*IF* you wanted to go that route, there would have to be a difference between "incidental" property damage as side effects and "wanton" property damage (where inflicting as much damage to property as possible is the whole point and purpose). Sort of a difference between a "heroic" Bank Robbery Mission, that involves NO (intentional) property damage, versus a Mayhem Mission, where wholesale (rather than retail) property damage is the entire point and purpose of the exercise.
After all, if you've got destructible terrain, there's going to be a way to track HOW MUCH of that terrain has been damaged/destroyed, even if only for the sake of consistency. THAT metric can then form the basis for any sort of property damage/insurance cost that would be billed to the character (in some form or fashion). That would mean needing to "attribute" causes for destruction of property (basically if your Power use did it, you're liable for it). This would necessarily rely on CAUSE rather than EFFECT when it comes to these damages to destructible terrain. If Doctor Tyche "smashes Anthem into next week" through a brick wall, Doctor Tyche is responsible for that result, not Anthem.
Now, the problem with this take on things is that there's an asymmetric application of "mayhem" inherently presumed. VILLAINS are supposed to Trash The Town while HEROES are supposed to protect and preserve it. Thus, the incentive structures wouldn't be balanced in both directions. Villains might earn "a little bit more" IGC for trashing everything in sight, while Heroes would have to PAY [i]a lot more[/i] for inflicting wanton property destruction deliberately.
Alternatively, you could set things up such that NPCs are capable of destroying terrain features (and inflicting general mayhem) and that the more such damage they cause, the less IGC those NPCs are worth to defeat ... creating a "get them now before they do 'too much' damage" sort of incentive system. As a variant wrinkle to that, it might even be possible to set things up such that the deduction to IGC award for defeating those NPCs [i]gets transferred[/i] into some other type of reward for defeating them, such as XP. This would create a tension between IGC earnings and XP earnings, putting NPCs onto something of a small sliding scale in terms of how much they are "worth" to defeat.
Would that be [b]way more complicated than absolutely necessary[/b]? Of course! But that doesn't mean it isn't fun to consider the angles and possibilities the notion creates.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Tannim, I was just having a little fun with the "idea" put forth by Redlynne is all. In all seriousness, should this be something that is put into the game? probably not but it would depend on the level of realism that is desired and then there is the coding required to track the damage being dealt by each individual hero...then what happens when the hero surpasses the amount they can actually afford?
should something like this happen...again probably not. yet, it can be fun to think about such things and how it might play out if implemented. :)
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On general principles, I wouldn't want such a feature to be capable of implementing a negative IGC flow in and of itself. That creates a whole new can of worms that really ought to not be opened. Instead, I'd have no problem with having IGC [b]earnings[/b] "flatlined" to zero (such that everything you "earn" is earmarked to be "paid" already) if things get really bad. In the absence of "gear maintenance" sinks for IGC, that ought to be plenty sufficient without becoming crippling.
The model I'd want to base such things on would be (of all things) ... Debt in City of Heroes. Rather than paying for Debt out of what you already HAD, instead you paid your Debt out of what you had yet to EARN. Debt in City of Heroes worked on a "half off" scheme until your Debt was paid, which in effect makes for another model of how to handle any sort of "owing" for property damages (which is almost but not quite what you suggested).
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Why would the use of a power automatically reduce the amount of IGC a character earns because they had to pay back some debt? Who is being paid back? Within the meta-scheme we're of course talking about creating a currency sink for using a power - something we'vee already gone over which is something we wouldn't do anyway. Within the story context it makes 0 sense that every character, regardless of alignment somehow be charged )or have to pay back) anyone for damages occured.
Whiteperegrine, I knew you were joking, but also knew others take the topic seriously and would respond seriously. So I tried to make. Both a joke about the subject while applying the same since of logic arguing from another perspective.
Now to be fair, we did have a lengthy discussion of the subject a couple of years back. And the possible outcome was to inject a complex system which tallied an IGC sink appropriate for the damage caused within a given time frame or suffer loss of faction rep with relevant factions. Then with all seriousness the observation was made that the local government would most likely have gotten involved and set out to absolve heroes for incidental destruction (since some are on call or legally allowed to operate) and could have a guarantee of payment from those who operate outside the law and would have to address the cost of repairing damage anyway.
Basicaly it wouldn't be fair to cause a player to pay back IGC for something that could be difficult to avoid (aoes doing damage to objects, attacks causing damage to the environemnt incidentally, etc...) And there aren't any justifiable in game reasons to apply a cost (of something be it IGC or Rep) that couldn't also be reaonably addressed that allow for ease of play. That is causing players to be concerned about environmental damage all the time.
Even so, as I said , we are quite a ways off, if ever, from having destructible environments. And if a time comes where it will be planned out, Im sure the subject of PCs incurring a cost (of something) will come up again.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
True. I'd turn all my Hero aligned characters into Vigilanties (or whatever) if hand to pay for city damages from a fight, i didn't initiate. :<
*Chants with a sign outside* Hello No to unfair Taxation.. without representation! ;)
Titan City is in Massachusetts...
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Guess this is a good place for this question: Will everyone have Super Strength no matter what class or just one? I am playing DCUO( rant over that later) and I have a psionic blaster type and it really bugs me that she can lift a soda machine with her bare hands and smash it over an villains head.
All 4 Mutants
Evolution is key. And mutants are key.
Our game and DCUO have a bit of a different design structure to characters. This game isn't character-based stat driven, ours is powers based stat driven (that is power's only do what their designed to do).
Now let's say that if (serious if there, no promises being made) there were to be a common lift things / throw things power everyone had access to, our animation customization would dictate that a player could make it look like they are physically holding the object, mentally holding it, or even have an animated "pet" (really just an animated pet for the purpose of appearances only, which is not a trivial thing to include so don't bet on it at launch or soon after either, just a possibility) hold an object, or any other reasonable visual fx ( a shadowy hand floating near the character, etc...).
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Sorry I used the wrong way in my plea. I was asking please do not let every class have S.S. If I am a blaster, troller, or defender(non psi) type I should not be lifting a forklift over my head. It is really immersive breaking to see someone who is a weak class use a scrapper(wolverine or Cage) or tank( Superman or Hulk) level power. This irked me when I played DCUO. I am a blaster..I am suppose to be weak and squishy, but can blow you up, freeze you, kill you with my brain power into oblivion.
All 4 Mutants
Evolution is key. And mutants are key.
Maybe put such powers into a tertiary set? One power for light stuff, another for heavier? That would make it open to any character. I'm not sure what the rest of the set would be, though. Maybe options to throw enemies around?
Under Construction...
Let tk environmental throw be the same class as super strength throw -- it is an environmental bonus, and should pack a major whomp (proportional to tk or strength level i.e. char level) and not an inherent power so to speak. Keep it separate (Champions does this for SS but the whomp is underwhelming and underpowered.)
Tk normal hurl power could still hurl non-environmental stuff, either a force construct, as part of normal powers, as if teleported in from somewhere.
Better idea!!!! Instead of it fading into existence next to the caster and then being hurled, have it whip in from high speed from visually out of range.
For interiors, use smaller objects that fit thru doors coming from the entrance door.
That is for the built in tk power. Break the mold!
So, to sum up, tk and SS (and maybe some other classes) can pick up environmental objects and hurl them with great damage, more than normal powers do. This is independent of their normal powers.
Then, tk also throws magic cars from somewhere, as a normal power, but these don't just materialize next to the tk, then get flung, but rather come whipping in from far away and hit the target!
There's a design that increases coolness!
By the way, to the balance worriers, in DCUO or Champions nobody cares. If some classes have a short-lived extra environmental whomp, nobody actually cares in practice, and it adds coolness, and people can create that class if they really want it. And no, I don't care about PvP balance concerns. These should be null and void to the design of a fun game and the PvE experience.
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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.