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The Super Alphabit

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notears
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The Super Alphabit

Alright so I've had this idea for awhile, basically it's an idea for how this world would categorize supers, so that we the PCs can still feel special even when a lot of other people are super.

A: These are the Archvillains and Archheroes. They're like Anthem or Doctor Tyke, they're rare but their the strongest form of super there is, it takes a lot of training and a lot of luck to become one of these, it takes a whole team of PCs just to tackle these.
B: The Elite bosses, a step down from A's, if you're really good, like really good, you could probably take one solo, but it would be a harrowing fight for sure, but would require a smaller team to fight.
C: The bosses. A step down from elite bosses. They're easier to fight solo than B's but not by much.
D: This is us, the Titans, where not as big as Anthem or the like but we are definatly big players in the game. We can take on small armies made up of lesser supers by ourselves, we can make power plays that the mooks around us can only dream of doing, we're part of the upper crust even if we aren't on the absolute top, and a lone minion would have a lot of nerve trying to get on our badside.
E: The Lieutenants of the game, elite mooks, not to much of a problem on their own but they can be a little challenging if fought in a group of around three.
F: The minions, the mooks of the town, they're nowhere near us in terms of power. They're the hedgemages that only know cantrips, the mad scientists who only know how to make a simple laser gun, the martial artists that can't even dodge a bullet, at best they have a 1st level power that a D class would have, at they're worst they're a rook with a baseball bat and a pistol. They're a walk in the park solo, 3 of them aren't even a challenge and it would take a group of atleast 10 to be as much of of a challenge as 3 E classes.
G:Now these guys? These guys just suck at being efficient at fighting. It takes 10 of these guys to be as challenging as one minion, they work best when their's alot of them, like alot of them!! A room full of these guys is a small challenge but to be extra challenging there needs to a thousand of them.
H: These guys might have great utility to them. They have powers like "I can make an area around me warmer" And they'll be paid to act as human heatlamps or they have more resistance to alcohol poisoning and can drink anyone under the table but that's it. They're no help in a fight what so ever.
I:If these guys do have powers it's more likely stuff like "I can spit in diffrent colours" or "I can make my farts smell like whatever I want". If they don't have powers they're like an ordinary elf or a robot. They may be another species than human but they're not really a special case, they just have pointed ears or they're made of metal and that's all that's diffrent.

So what do you think? It could work for adding more fluff to the diffrence between us and a minion, and it could serve as a reason why people would want to hire us over some F class wannabe.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

nightwings89
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looks good

looks good

Brand X
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If a PC can't take down an

If a PC can't take down an archvillain/hero solo, like we could in CoH, then CoT will have failed.

Atama
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

If a PC can't take down an archvillain/hero solo, like we could in CoH, then CoT will have failed.

We can’t have end-game bosses that require groups to take down? Lacking an enemy like that is what feels like a failure to me.

Lothic
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

If a PC can't take down an archvillain/hero solo, like we could in CoH, then CoT will have failed.

There were some archetypes in CoH that could solo most of the archvillains/heroes in the game. On the other hand there were other archetypes that had serious trouble soloing most archvillains/heroes in the game unless they were turned down to the lowest difficulty settings. Sometimes they were still un-soloable in certain cases. It's not a "failing" of a game if certain archetypes/classes can't solo "everything" in a game.

If a game like this is geared so that even the weakest character can solo everything then that game would be trivially too easy for the strongest characters.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Brand X
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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
Brand X wrote:

If a PC can't take down an archvillain/hero solo, like we could in CoH, then CoT will have failed.

We can’t have end-game bosses that require groups to take down? Lacking an enemy like that is what feels like a failure to me.

Did I say that? I don't believe I said that.

However, one of the best moments was soloing Romulus in the ITF with my scrapper. There were still other AVs people couldn't solo.

notears
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

If a PC can't take down an archvillain/hero solo, like we could in CoH, then CoT will have failed.

Well it's not that it can't happen it's just that the GAME says that it can't happen, like how the game in CoH says that it can't happen. If you do manage to then you're awesome. Do you want me to say "that it isn't likely that you'll take one down solo" instead?

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

Atama
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Atama wrote:
Brand X wrote:

If a PC can't take down an archvillain/hero solo, like we could in CoH, then CoT will have failed.

We can’t have end-game bosses that require groups to take down? Lacking an enemy like that is what feels like a failure to me.

Did I say that? I don't believe I said that.

However, one of the best moments was soloing Romulus in the ITF with my scrapper. There were still other AVs people couldn't solo.

Being able to solo the toughest enemies in the game (which notears is calling an archvillain or hero) is mutually exclusive with needing a group to take one down. So yes, that’s exactly what you said, although perhaps that’s not what you meant to say.

If Romulus was something you could solo, but other (more powerful) enemies can’t be done solo, then Romulus isn’t an example of one of the top-tier characters. They’d probably be in the “Elite Boss” category.

I know in games you sometimes have content designed to require a group to complete it, but then later the level cap is raised and a high level character can solo it. That’s fine. But if your highest-difficulty stuff can be done solo, you’ve failed as a designer. Because you no longer have a reason to be in an end-game group. And something possible to solo will be trivial in a group.

Brainbot
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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

So what do you think? It could work for adding more fluff to the diffrence between us and a minion, and it could serve as a reason why people would want to hire us over some F class wannabe.

Can you explain the reasoning behind this list a bit more?
Are you saying that this list will be something the in game characters refer to when talking about personalities in the game?
As in NPC dialogue like 'I need you to take down the Robber Baron. He is nothing more than a F class villain so you shouldn't have too much trouble with him.'

Or do you mean this to be a meta classification that we as players use to describe the various characters out of game?
As in two players are in chat and one says 'Oh I just finished a quest that had me beat up on a bunch of G level guys and it was kinda boring. I prefer when the developers give me a boss that has E grade foes or better because its more challenging.'

Or do you intend this to be a guideline that the developers use to design their NPC characters?
As in, the developers use these classifications for mechanics and quest creation.

I know you said 'fluff' but that can mean a bunch of different things. Just looking for some clarification on what you intend this list to be used for.

Brand X
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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Atama wrote:
Brand X wrote:

If a PC can't take down an archvillain/hero solo, like we could in CoH, then CoT will have failed.

We can’t have end-game bosses that require groups to take down? Lacking an enemy like that is what feels like a failure to me.

Did I say that? I don't believe I said that.

However, one of the best moments was soloing Romulus in the ITF with my scrapper. There were still other AVs people couldn't solo.

Being able to solo the toughest enemies in the game (which notears is calling an archvillain or hero) is mutually exclusive with needing a group to take one down. So yes, that’s exactly what you said, although perhaps that’s not what you meant to say.

If Romulus was something you could solo, but other (more powerful) enemies can’t be done solo, then Romulus isn’t an example of one of the top-tier characters. They’d probably be in the “Elite Boss” category.

I know in games you sometimes have content designed to require a group to complete it, but then later the level cap is raised and a high level character can solo it. That’s fine. But if your highest-difficulty stuff can be done solo, you’ve failed as a designer. Because you no longer have a reason to be in an end-game group. And something possible to solo will be trivial in a group.

Romulus was the last boss (AV) of the ITF. Players, me being one, were able to beat it without the added abilities of Incarnate Abilities. It took work, part of that work being getting the right IOs. He was an AV. The same for other equal or greater level AVs.

Also, I ran the ITF plenty and so did others, even after we soloed it, because it just wasn't easy to do, wasn't fast to do, and was basically a matter of "Let's test my DPS and survival".

No idea why you think "Oh. Someone soloed it so no one will ever run it as a group." Where'd you ever get that thought? Hell, people can solo FPs on SWTOR, and they still team, because it's just faster to do with other people.

As for your "Can do it solo in a group will be trivial in a group" well, if you had played CoH, then you'd know what was struggling for some groups, was a cake walk for others anyways. Like a whole team of Buffers/Debuffers. :p By what sounds to be your logic, we shouldn't allow such teams to happen, because it will trivialize the group content.

rookslide
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This thread makes me wonder..

This thread makes me wonder... were there badges for times when you took down a villain solo versus as a team? I don’t remember any but I’m not sure? That could be a neat set of badgers for a cool accolade style bonus!

Just a thought...

P.S. Persistence badge for completing x,y, and z villains solo, permanent +5 to some stat...

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

This thread makes me wonder... were there badges for times when you took down a villain solo versus as a team? I don’t remember any but I’m not sure? That could be a neat set of badgers for a cool accolade style bonus!

Just a thought...

P.S. Persistence badge for completing x,y, and z villains solo, permanent +5 to some stat...

Nah, not really. The devs were pretty good (but not perfect before someone objects) about not excluding people from getting potential badges. That's not to say that there weren't challenge badges as there certainly were, but those were mostly for informed willingness to take on harder content and additional difficulties that more often than not was to be done with people as a team effort. That's why players had to come up with stuff like soloing Pylons as an okay metric for measuring DPS high enough to solo AVs.

Edit: I'm generally all for rewarding harder content and more challenging difficulties but I'm also aware that there are badgers who play classes/ATs/etc that aren't suited for certain objectives, which would be exclusionary behavior and I'm not for that in particular. Thankfully, a single character in CoT can have multiple builds to take on such difficulties, so even if there are badgers who prefer to play support-styled classes, they should be able to change their build as necessary and complete where applicable.

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rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

This thread makes me wonder... were there badges for times when you took down a villain solo versus as a team? I don’t remember any but I’m not sure? That could be a neat set of badgers for a cool accolade style bonus!

Just a thought...

P.S. Persistence badge for completing x,y, and z villains solo, permanent +5 to some stat...

If you had a character that could solo a bunch of bosses why would you need an extra +5 to some stat permanent or otherwise? ;)

No, as Cobalt Azurean said there were no such badges in CoH for pretty much the reasons he said: it would be relatively unfair to those character builds/classes that were either not built for it or would be unable to solo such bosses under -any- reasonable circumstances.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

notears
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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
notears wrote:

So what do you think? It could work for adding more fluff to the diffrence between us and a minion, and it could serve as a reason why people would want to hire us over some F class wannabe.

Can you explain the reasoning behind this list a bit more?
Are you saying that this list will be something the in game characters refer to when talking about personalities in the game?
As in NPC dialogue like 'I need you to take down the Robber Baron. He is nothing more than a F class villain so you shouldn't have too much trouble with him.'

Or do you mean this to be a meta classification that we as players use to describe the various characters out of game?
As in two players are in chat and one says 'Oh I just finished a quest that had me beat up on a bunch of G level guys and it was kinda boring. I prefer when the developers give me a boss that has E grade foes or better because its more challenging.'

Or do you intend this to be a guideline that the developers use to design their NPC characters?
As in, the developers use these classifications for mechanics and quest creation.

I know you said 'fluff' but that can mean a bunch of different things. Just looking for some clarification on what you intend this list to be used for.

I'm saying this should be something NPCs refer to about power levels in the game. I think it could improve the story of the game if world recognizes that a lot of the supers out there are minions, and the ones that are stronger than you are rare. Heck it could even be a reason why the tutorial is so easy, the cops or the bank robbers have assumed that you're just a dime a dozen F class who thinks they're a big shot, with the boss at the end being a E class that first goes "Alright let's get this over with" to "Wait you're a D? GET ME OOUT OF HERE!!"

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

notears
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It would be a lot closer to

It would be a lot closer to the first thing you said. Supers have been around for a long time, so people probably researched them by now and can more readily identify them by their documents. D classes are powerful enough to have an archetype, while those above them have an archetype but more, while those below the D class have like half an archetype or just a single power. It came about more as a study of the more paranormal elements of the world like mad science and magic until they finalized it as a code that people can use to tell the different parts of super powered beings apart.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

Atama
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

As for your "Can do it solo in a group will be trivial in a group" well, if you had played CoH, then you'd know what was struggling for some groups, was a cake walk for others anyways. Like a whole team of Buffers/Debuffers. :p By what sounds to be your logic, we shouldn't allow such teams to happen, because it will trivialize the group content.

Of course that’s what I mean. Because it does trivialize it. That’s literally the definition of a “cakewalk”. If you can put together a group and just breeze through any content in the game, that’s bad game design. If CoH allowed a whole team of buffers/debuffers to get through all the content without effort then the game had a serious design flaw. One I hope CoT doesn’t fall prey to.

I remember playing Lord of the Rings Online, and they released the Mines of Moria expansion. It didn’t take long for people to realize that the way that group content was designed, tanks were not needed at all, and you could get by without any healers (though that made things a bit dicey). If you had sufficient DPS, you could kill everything so fast that the enemy would die before becoming a real threat. Minions and bosses both.

As someone who had a tank as a main character it was awful. I could not get a group. My class was basically made totally irrelevant. It made the game very painful.

Turbine realized their mistake and rebalanced things so that the “all DPS” strategy was no longer viable. But I’ve seen firsthand what happens when you can make a team of just one kind of character to trivialize challenges in an MMO. It is awful.

The same goes for solo play as well. If a class or build is so powerful it can solo content that nobody else could, that’s clearly a major flaw that needs to be addressed. I’m okay with the idea that some strategies work better than others, or that you have optimal and suboptimal builds, and good combinations of character types and bad combinations. And not every kind of character should be equally successful at everything. But there’s a good reason why “overpowered” and “facerolling” are pejorative descriptors. Those highlight serious problems with a game. I’m surprised anyone would defend those flaws.

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

I'm saying this should be something NPCs refer to about power levels in the game. I think it could improve the story of the game if world recognizes that a lot of the supers out there are minions, and the ones that are stronger than you are rare. Heck it could even be a reason why the tutorial is so easy, the cops or the bank robbers have assumed that you're just a dime a dozen F class who thinks they're a big shot, with the boss at the end being a E class that first goes "Alright let's get this over with" to "Wait you're a D? GET ME OOUT OF HERE!!"

Just for personal clarification; is this a static metric or one that changes over time as you gain levels? Is it just some arbitrary $ value random NPCname1234 says? Is it comparable to Gear Score? If so, how would you instigate controls over the Score calculation to prevent people from using it as exclusionary behavior?

The only reason I bring it up is because I personally have never been a fan of gear scores or power levels or what have you as I have seen it used as a complete and utter measure of skill and/or level of contribution, which is absolutely not the case. It's really only a measure of possible potential. Lesser-dedicated players that get carried by their team/guild/raid can have amazing gear (scores) with a non-optimal attack rotation with little contribution to a team/raid/etc, which is not uncommon. I saw it to some degree rear its head in CoH/V when the later Incarnate Trials launched, which made sense as they were intended for level 53 shifted players, not for some level 50 who just got their Incarnate unlocked and wanted some super IXP. I then saw it after the shutdown full force in original The Secret World (and subsequently in Secret World Legends) because if you weren't 1410 DPS, you were getting kicked.

Brand X
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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
Brand X wrote:

As for your "Can do it solo in a group will be trivial in a group" well, if you had played CoH, then you'd know what was struggling for some groups, was a cake walk for others anyways. Like a whole team of Buffers/Debuffers. :p By what sounds to be your logic, we shouldn't allow such teams to happen, because it will trivialize the group content.

Of course that’s what I mean. Because it does trivialize it. That’s literally the definition of a “cakewalk”. If you can put together a group and just breeze through any content in the game, that’s bad game design. If CoH allowed a whole team of buffers/debuffers to get through all the content without effort then the game had a serious design flaw. One I hope CoT doesn’t fall prey to.

I remember playing Lord of the Rings Online, and they released the Mines of Moria expansion. It didn’t take long for people to realize that the way that group content was designed, tanks were not needed at all, and you could get by without any healers (though that made things a bit dicey). If you had sufficient DPS, you could kill everything so fast that the enemy would die before becoming a real threat. Minions and bosses both.

As someone who had a tank as a main character it was awful. I could not get a group. My class was basically made totally irrelevant. It made the game very painful.

Turbine realized their mistake and rebalanced things so that the “all DPS” strategy was no longer viable. But I’ve seen firsthand what happens when you can make a team of just one kind of character to trivialize challenges in an MMO. It is awful.

The same goes for solo play as well. If a class or build is so powerful it can solo content that nobody else could, that’s clearly a major flaw that needs to be addressed. I’m okay with the idea that some strategies work better than others, or that you have optimal and suboptimal builds, and good combinations of character types and bad combinations. And not every kind of character should be equally successful at everything. But there’s a good reason why “overpowered” and “facerolling” are pejorative descriptors. Those highlight serious problems with a game. I’m surprised anyone would defend those flaws.

Well, then, it sounds like you want everyone to really suck. Not feel like a hero at all.

Certain group make ups made content a cakewalk in CoH.

As for soloing AVs, that was never a cake walk. I don't recall a time I soloed an AV and just say there hitting the attack keys and never having to worry about my life. That goes a long with the fact that I didn't even have a very active defense set on my scrapper with doing it, and it was weaker when up against 1 target versus more.

It also took work to even get to that point and believe me, it never stopped me from teaming, because soloing that content was not time vs reward effective. It was just personal reward deal of "YAY! That made one feel like Spider-Woman or Spider-Man!" you know, those heroes that don't need a team to take down every AV around :p

rookslide
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Yeah I wasn’t thinking it

Yeah I wasn’t thinking it would be an easy path to do it I imagine several hours of play for a solo to take even one AV but I see your point. Maybe just a badge for recognition of the achievements not an accolade.

Of course who would mess with a guy who could manage such a feat? Given it took them say a couple weeks of play to manage getting the arcs and then the time spent playing through to get to the kills.

Would still make a cool badge I think if nothing else. Few I think would manage it but not so few that it was elitist just perhaps exclusive for the highly dedicated. It was just a thought but you guys have an excellent point against it.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

Atama
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Well, then, it sounds like you want everyone to really suck. Not feel like a hero at all.

No, I want nobody to suck. I want everyone to be viable. I don’t want an “uber h@xx0rz” exploit build that lets me take out an enemy that the developers meant to require a whole group to defeat. I don’t need a cheat mode to feel like a hero. To me, that’s actually the opposite.

Quote:

Certain group make ups made content a cakewalk in CoH.

Which any developer will tell you is crap design. CoH had some great virtues but it was total garbage in allowing this. At least if it left it unaddressed. If you can’t balance your content, you’re not a competent designer. Quality MMOs don’t allow for this kind of thing.

Quote:

As for soloing AVs, that was never a cake walk. I don't recall a time I soloed an AV and just say there hitting the attack keys and never having to worry about my life. That goes a long with the fact that I didn't even have a very active defense set on my scrapper with doing it, and it was weaker when up against 1 target versus more.

It also took work to even get to that point and believe me, it never stopped me from teaming, because soloing that content was not time vs reward effective. It was just personal reward deal of "YAY! That made one feel like Spider-Woman or Spider-Man!" you know, those heroes that don't need a team to take down every AV around :p

A quality MMO should have end-game content that requires an entire group (or raid) to struggle and work hard to complete it. An example would be defeating the Lich King when that expansion in WoW was new. It took lots of practice, everyone working together, sometimes months of trying and failing before you could finish. Someone trying to solo it couldn’t even get past the first boss. Taking that away means there is no challenge for a group.

Yes, Spider-Man could take down Doctor Octopus or Electro, but he wouldn’t be able to solo Galactus or a Gauntlet-wearing Thanos. We should have enemies at the highest level that it takes while teams to defeat. That’s what gives a sense of accomplishment for myself and for many gamers.

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Yeah Dr Octopus would be a C

Yeah Dr Octopus would be a C at the most, not a full on A. He's a tough fight but he's not Galactus, him wanting to kill you doesn't mean you need a team at the very least. He's a boss, someone you would find at the end of a stary arch but never at the end of a raid unless he got his hands on one of the infinity stones.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

Lord Nightmare
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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
Brand X wrote:

As for your "Can do it solo in a group will be trivial in a group" well, if you had played CoH, then you'd know what was struggling for some groups, was a cake walk for others anyways. Like a whole team of Buffers/Debuffers. :p By what sounds to be your logic, we shouldn't allow such teams to happen, because it will trivialize the group content.

Of course that’s what I mean. Because it does trivialize it. That’s literally the definition of a “cakewalk”. If you can put together a group and just breeze through any content in the game, that’s bad game design. If CoH allowed a whole team of buffers/debuffers to get through all the content without effort then the game had a serious design flaw. One I hope CoT doesn’t fall prey to.

I remember playing Lord of the Rings Online, and they released the Mines of Moria expansion. It didn’t take long for people to realize that the way that group content was designed, tanks were not needed at all, and you could get by without any healers (though that made things a bit dicey). If you had sufficient DPS, you could kill everything so fast that the enemy would die before becoming a real threat. Minions and bosses both.

As someone who had a tank as a main character it was awful. I could not get a group. My class was basically made totally irrelevant. It made the game very painful.

Turbine realized their mistake and rebalanced things so that the “all DPS” strategy was no longer viable. But I’ve seen firsthand what happens when you can make a team of just one kind of character to trivialize challenges in an MMO. It is awful.

The same goes for solo play as well. If a class or build is so powerful it can solo content that nobody else could, that’s clearly a major flaw that needs to be addressed. I’m okay with the idea that some strategies work better than others, or that you have optimal and suboptimal builds, and good combinations of character types and bad combinations. And not every kind of character should be equally successful at everything. But there’s a good reason why “overpowered” and “facerolling” are pejorative descriptors. Those highlight serious problems with a game. I’m surprised anyone would defend those flaws.

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

I'm saying this should be something NPCs refer to about power levels in the game. I think it could improve the story of the game if world recognizes that a lot of the supers out there are minions, and the ones that are stronger than you are rare. Heck it could even be a reason why the tutorial is so easy, the cops or the bank robbers have assumed that you're just a dime a dozen F class who thinks they're a big shot, with the boss at the end being a E class that first goes "Alright let's get this over with" to "Wait you're a D? GET ME OOUT OF HERE!!"

Thanks for explaining.

Well if it's in game speak then I find the 'A B C all the way to I' is not a descriptive enough classification. I would prefer either a more official sounding terminology or some kind of common slang people have adopted. Maybe a combination of both.
Just off the top of my head, for official terms something like the NATO phonetic alphabet (whiskey tango foxtrot), a color code threat assessment, the Greek alphabet or even an acronym. This would be used mostly by government officials, the military or police npcs.
For slang I would prefer something similar to the way CoH did it's classification. Arch-Villain/Hero, Giant Monster, Elite Boss, Boss and so on, except CoT's version of this. This would be used mostly by everyone else.

Just to explain what I mean a bit differently, In comics they have official's sounding terms like 'meta or 'enhanced' to describe their people with powers and some times they use the Greek alphabet to describe them. As in Magneto is an Omega level mutant threat.
Calling Magneto an A or B level threat does not have the same oomph that the other does. At least not to me.

Other than that I think the idea to have a terminology that the NPC's use regularly to describe other NPC's or even player characters is pretty good idea.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
notears wrote:

I'm saying this should be something NPCs refer to about power levels in the game. I think it could improve the story of the game if world recognizes that a lot of the supers out there are minions, and the ones that are stronger than you are rare. Heck it could even be a reason why the tutorial is so easy, the cops or the bank robbers have assumed that you're just a dime a dozen F class who thinks they're a big shot, with the boss at the end being a E class that first goes "Alright let's get this over with" to "Wait you're a D? GET ME OOUT OF HERE!!"

Thanks for explaining.

Well if it's in game speak then I find the 'A B C all the way to I' is not a descriptive enough classification. I would prefer either a more official sounding terminology or some kind of common slang people have adopted. Maybe a combination of both.
Just off the top of my head, for official terms something like the NATO phonetic alphabet (whiskey tango foxtrot), a color code threat assessment, the Greek alphabet or even an acronym. This would be used mostly by government officials, the military or police npcs.
For slang I would prefer something similar to the way CoH did it's classification. Arch-Villain/Hero, Giant Monster, Elite Boss, Boss and so on, except CoT's version of this. This would be used mostly by everyone else.

Just to explain what I mean a bit differently, In comics they have official's sounding terms like 'meta or 'enhanced' to describe their people with powers and some times they use the Greek alphabet to describe them. As in Magneto is an Omega level mutant threat.
Calling Magneto an A or B level threat does not have the same oomph that the other does. At least not to me.

Other than that I think the idea to have a terminology that the NPC's use regularly to describe other NPC's or even player characters is pretty good idea.

Well what about we use the Greek alphabet then? Instead of an A class superhero, one would be an Alpha super, or a Beta super, or an Omega super.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

A quality MMO should have end-game content that requires an entire group (or raid) to struggle and work hard to complete it. An example would be defeating the Lich King when that expansion in WoW was new. It took lots of practice, everyone working together, sometimes months of trying and failing before you could finish. Someone trying to solo it couldn’t even get past the first boss. Taking that away means there is no challenge for a group.

Atama, if I may, CoT is going to have player controlled difficulty sliders and players will be able to increase their difficulty with an optional challenge system. It will be in the players hands how difficult we want to make our challenges. If you prefer to face foes that require teams to take down it will be up to you to set the difficulty and the optional challenges for the quests.
In addition, there will be challenges that require multiple teams to overcome. I believe the devs called this Raid quests. But anything below a raid quest, including whatever the CoT equivalent for task forces is, will be flexible enough to provide vastly different levels of challenge.

To me the discussion about making foes that require teams seems like a moot point. For what it's worth, I personally really don't want this game to ape WoW's quest designs, including their raids.

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Well, then, it sounds like you want everyone to really suck. Not feel like a hero at all.

No, I want nobody to suck. I want everyone to be viable. I don’t want an “uber h@xx0rz” exploit build that lets me take out an enemy that the developers meant to require a whole group to defeat. I don’t need a cheat mode to feel like a hero. To me, that’s actually the opposite.

Quote:

Certain group make ups made content a cakewalk in CoH.

Which any developer will tell you is crap design. CoH had some great virtues but it was total garbage in allowing this. At least if it left it unaddressed. If you can’t balance your content, you’re not a competent designer. Quality MMOs don’t allow for this kind of thing.

Quote:

As for soloing AVs, that was never a cake walk. I don't recall a time I soloed an AV and just say there hitting the attack keys and never having to worry about my life. That goes a long with the fact that I didn't even have a very active defense set on my scrapper with doing it, and it was weaker when up against 1 target versus more.

It also took work to even get to that point and believe me, it never stopped me from teaming, because soloing that content was not time vs reward effective. It was just personal reward deal of "YAY! That made one feel like Spider-Woman or Spider-Man!" you know, those heroes that don't need a team to take down every AV around :p

A quality MMO should have end-game content that requires an entire group (or raid) to struggle and work hard to complete it. An example would be defeating the Lich King when that expansion in WoW was new. It took lots of practice, everyone working together, sometimes months of trying and failing before you could finish. Someone trying to solo it couldn’t even get past the first boss. Taking that away means there is no challenge for a group.

Yes, Spider-Man could take down Doctor Octopus or Electro, but he wouldn’t be able to solo Galactus or a Gauntlet-wearing Thanos. We should have enemies at the highest level that it takes while teams to defeat. That’s what gives a sense of accomplishment for myself and for many gamers.

It did have that. Incarnate trials couldn't be soloed.

Again, I even wonder if you played CoH. After all, it wasn't cheating that allowed someone to build a character to solo AVs.

Let me guess, you think it's bad design when someone in Tera can beat a monster, because they're fast enough to avoid the attacks but must be cheating because you couldn't. :p

And in CoH terms. Doc Ock would've been an AV.

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Well what about we use the Greek alphabet then? Instead of an A class superhero, one would be an Alpha super, or a Beta super, or an Omega super.

Sure, I mean I wasn't really trying to come up with a specific terminology. I just wasn't feeling the a-i letter based terms.

I would first come up with a term for powered people in CoT. Like how I exampled 'metas' and 'enhanced' previously. First coming up with that term will help a lot with coming up with proper slang or official speak.
For example, an acronym like PHRoOT (Potent Humanoid, Robotic or Other Threat). I mean I'm not exactly sold on that acronym, in fact I really hate it. C'mon it spells fruit for crying out loud, I'm better than that. But an acronym like that works well with the Greek alphabet.
As in Magneto is an Omega level PHRoOT.

Alternately if you describe all people with some kind of enhancement or powers as a 'Potent' then a color coded threat indication works well.
As in Magneto is a Red level Potent.

Beyond those suggestions I don't really have any ideas.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Atama wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Well, then, it sounds like you want everyone to really suck. Not feel like a hero at all.

No, I want nobody to suck. I want everyone to be viable. I don’t want an “uber h@xx0rz” exploit build that lets me take out an enemy that the developers meant to require a whole group to defeat. I don’t need a cheat mode to feel like a hero. To me, that’s actually the opposite.

Quote:

Certain group make ups made content a cakewalk in CoH.

Which any developer will tell you is crap design. CoH had some great virtues but it was total garbage in allowing this. At least if it left it unaddressed. If you can’t balance your content, you’re not a competent designer. Quality MMOs don’t allow for this kind of thing.

Quote:

As for soloing AVs, that was never a cake walk. I don't recall a time I soloed an AV and just say there hitting the attack keys and never having to worry about my life. That goes a long with the fact that I didn't even have a very active defense set on my scrapper with doing it, and it was weaker when up against 1 target versus more.

It also took work to even get to that point and believe me, it never stopped me from teaming, because soloing that content was not time vs reward effective. It was just personal reward deal of "YAY! That made one feel like Spider-Woman or Spider-Man!" you know, those heroes that don't need a team to take down every AV around :p

A quality MMO should have end-game content that requires an entire group (or raid) to struggle and work hard to complete it. An example would be defeating the Lich King when that expansion in WoW was new. It took lots of practice, everyone working together, sometimes months of trying and failing before you could finish. Someone trying to solo it couldn’t even get past the first boss. Taking that away means there is no challenge for a group.

Yes, Spider-Man could take down Doctor Octopus or Electro, but he wouldn’t be able to solo Galactus or a Gauntlet-wearing Thanos. We should have enemies at the highest level that it takes while teams to defeat. That’s what gives a sense of accomplishment for myself and for many gamers.

It did have that. Incarnate trials couldn't be soloed.

Again, I even wonder if you played CoH. After all, it wasn't cheating that allowed someone to build a character to solo AVs.

Let me guess, you think it's bad design when someone in Tera can beat a monster, because they're fast enough to avoid the attacks but must be cheating because you couldn't. :p

And in CoH terms. Doc Ock would've been an AV.

No, I didn’t play CoH, not to high levels at least. I did play a pretty cool fire blaster for a while.

See, if there’s content that *requires* groups that’s all I’m talking about. In the context of this thread, notears was referencing the toughest content as being at “A”. The toughest content shouldn’t be soloable. I think you mixed up metaphors here. I’m talking about MMOs in particular, and CoT potentially. Not CoH. While CoT is a spiritual successor to CoH, it will not be CoH. Talking about CoT as if it literally is the same game is unproductive.

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Archheroes and Archvillains

Archheroes and Archvillains all had different levels of toughness.

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To me, the really critical

To me, the really critical thing about CoH was not that a PC could beat a Boss, but that a Boss could not 'beat' a PC, not easily. Yes, there were certain mobs that could take down even the strongest hero, if the player was incautious. There were some mobs that... 'cheated', so we learned to take those out FIRST, or we formed teams with the expressed purpose of countering those 'cheating' mobs.

Another important thing was that a 'good' team could be formed from just about any combination of ATs, even 'all Defenders', 'all Tankers', or Masterminds. I've played on really good teams that were 'all Scrappers', the key was playing to the characters' Strengths and minimizing their weaknesses. Also 'eating your Insps'. The Deadliest team I ever saw was 2 Bubblers and a Mad Fire-Scrapper...

I'd call that Excellent Game Design! Everybody can contribute and have fun. The content that frustrated the solo player was 'easy' for that player with even a single partner. Players that Understood each other's ATs and playstyles could do amazing things together.

Superb game design! Let's do that again!

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Most Superhero stuff uses

Most Superhero stuff uses terminology such as "A-List, B-List, C-List, D-list, etc" when describing Superheroes and Super Villains.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Most Superhero stuff uses terminology such as "A-List, B-List, C-List, D-list, etc" when describing Superheroes and Super Villains.

I would need examples of one character describing another as 'A-list' or 'B-list'.

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Empowered does it.

Empowered does it.

That said, I recall Marvel using the lines every so often, but I recall them more being joke punchlines than regular things.

Marvel would more likely register heroes at certain levels or like mutants Omegas, Alphas etc.

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It's definitely been used in

It's definitely been used in marvel. I think in some of the early part of civil war they use the term to talk about the New Warriors or about the Villains they faced.

I know it can definitely be used as an out of universe terminology.

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Well here's my reasoning for

Well here's my reasoning for it, this game has something different about it that other superhero settings don't... the amount of supers in it is supposedly much higher than what one would find in the marvel universe or the DC universe, and while it may feel powerful and awesome to play a batman Arkham game or a spiderman game, you can only really do that when you are the main super in that city. In an MMO you can't really have that, since there are going to be a lot of other supers in the world because other people play the game too. As such we need a way for the player to feel special, a key cornerstone of superhero fiction, so my idea is to say that we the titans are more special than the other supers in the setting, we're on a different power level all together. We're the bottom line of the upper crust. That's why we get all of these jobs, because we're just the right amount of powerful and numerous to be better acquired for them.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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I don't think there really

I don't think there really needs to be any sort of in-universe ranking system.

Though I'd look to shows like My Hero Academia (like, 80% of the population has powers) or OK KO Let's Be Heroes (I think everyone in that show has some sort of power) for inspiration on how to rank them. Not sure on Hero Academia, but I know that in OK KO they literally just have levels; negative for villains, positive for heroes.

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Well OK KO is a parody series

Well OK KO is a parody series, so as far as I'm concerned they don't count, I've been meaning watch Hero Acadamia though but I can never find the channel it plays on and I don't really want to subscribe to crunchyroll, heard it's good. If it truly is an example of a superhero story that can exist where almost everyone is super then, I guess the devs should watch it to see how it's done.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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You don't need to pay for

You don't need to pay for crunchy roll to watch it on crunchy roll, you can watch it there for free, but with ads.

OK KO is an action comedy series, not a parody series.

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thanks watching My Hero right

thanks watching My Hero right now. Also OK KO is still a series that's not meant to be taken seriously despite what kind of comedy it is.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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The current arc in OK KO is

The current arc in OK KO is dealing with a super hero training school that's doing something shady involving powering up some of the students for some as of yet unexplained reason.

And there's a whole thing about how one of the secondary characters got a large part of his former team killed.

An episode that deals with racism and how to deal with a thing you like having some highly negative qualities.

There's a lot of interesting stuff in that show and I don't think it should just be written off just because it's a comedy show for kids.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

It's definitely been used in marvel. I think in some of the early part of civil war they use the term to talk about the New Warriors or about the Villains they faced.

I know it can definitely be used as an out of universe terminology.

So not most then.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

The current arc in OK KO is dealing with a super hero training school that's doing something shady involving powering up some of the students for some as of yet unexplained reason.

And there's a whole thing about how one of the secondary characters got a large part of his former team killed.

An episode that deals with racism and how to deal with a thing you like having some highly negative qualities.

There's a lot of interesting stuff in that show and I don't think it should just be written off just because it's a comedy show for kids.

That's true...

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

It's definitely been used in marvel. I think in some of the early part of civil war they use the term to talk about the New Warriors or about the Villains they faced.

I know it can definitely be used as an out of universe terminology.

So not most then.

You wanted examples and that is the only one I know for sure. It's not like I'm going to go back and pore over all of the Superhero media I've consumed in my life to find you specific examples. And Google searching for said examples is difficult as they usually don't have just the one panel in a comic it likely gets used in especially when it's used out of universe to describe heroes.

So it's less "Not most of them" and more "That's the only one Project Hero knows for sure."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

You wanted examples and that is the only one I know for sure. It's not like I'm going to go back and pore over all of the Superhero media I've consumed in my life to find you specific examples. And Google searching for said examples is difficult as they usually don't have just the one panel in a comic it likely gets used in especially when it's used out of universe to describe heroes.

So it's less "Not most of them" and more "That's the only one Project Hero knows for sure."

The point I was making was that the letter classification is not common enough or memorable enough to come up with examples.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

You wanted examples and that is the only one I know for sure. It's not like I'm going to go back and pore over all of the Superhero media I've consumed in my life to find you specific examples. And Google searching for said examples is difficult as they usually don't have just the one panel in a comic it likely gets used in especially when it's used out of universe to describe heroes.

So it's less "Not most of them" and more "That's the only one Project Hero knows for sure."

The point I was making was that the letter classification is not common enough or memorable enough to come up with examples.

It is at least in the real world. People talk about A-list and B-list celebrities. If you search A-list, B-list, C-List Superheroes you get a ton of results. Like, it's a thing we have in the real world. Even if I can't recall any specific examples, it's still a thing that's common enough.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

It is at least in the real world. People talk about A-list and B-list celebrities. If you search A-list, B-list, C-List Superheroes you get a ton of results. Like, it's a thing we have in the real world. Even if I can't recall any specific examples, it's still a thing that's common enough.

This is why I asked what the OP intended use hfor his list.
He pictures it as an immersive element of storytelling. How in game npcs, and by extension the pcs, refer to different levels of 'powered' individuals.
The lists that people make on reddit or youtube are irrelevant to the discussion.
Whatever,I have work to do and trying to get you to admit you over exaggerated your claim is non-productive.

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I think affiliations are good

I think affiliations are good enough. It doesn’t matter what “rank” someone is, if he’s good enough to be an Avenger or in the Justice League he’s worthy of respect. I’m sure the game will be like that too.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

It is at least in the real world. People talk about A-list and B-list celebrities. If you search A-list, B-list, C-List Superheroes you get a ton of results. Like, it's a thing we have in the real world. Even if I can't recall any specific examples, it's still a thing that's common enough.

This is why I asked what the OP intended use hfor his list.
He pictures it as an immersive element of storytelling. How in game npcs, and by extension the pcs, refer to different levels of 'powered' individuals.
The lists that people make on reddit or youtube are irrelevant to the discussion.
Whatever,I have work to do and trying to get you to admit you over exaggerated your claim is non-productive.

How real people rank people, both fictional and real, is irrelevant to the discussion on how NPCs and PCs should rank the people in their world?

Ok then.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Fan wise...Iron Man was a B

Fan wise...Iron Man was a B-List superhero. After they made a movie that kicked ass, he quit being a B-List superhero comic wise. Now, power wise, I would never have said Iron Man was a B-List hero. He just wasn't as popular.

When it comes to in universe speech, A-List and B-List usually comes down to power/skill levels.

As for out characters and CoT, we have no idea how the story is going to go. Is it going to be all "We have millions of heroes going around this city fighting crime!"? If so, we likely already have a terrible story coming. :p

The best way for the MMO story to work, is to assume there isn't millions of heroes moving about the city. "Yup! Over half the city's population is superheroes! The other quarter is villains! The rest is normal citizens."