So with the recent trailer for Fallout 4, I've seen a lot of folks either rooting for or lambasting the idea of a Fallout MMO, as well as picking similar sides regarding ESO. I'm reminded of all the times I've been playing one MMO or another and experience the kind of hate that only the internet can provide for being the type of person who spends most of my MMO time working the solo experience. How many times have I been told "You're missing the whole point of the game!" because sometimes I just want to explore/fight/adventure on my own in a "shared world."
These past decades, it seems like everything in the world is another aspect of division and polarization. Right vs Left, Rich vs Poor, Religion vs Religion, Us vs Them, Single Player vs MMO. Well, it seems to me that at least for the latter, that doesn't need to be the case. Most MMOs have to have a significant amount of single player content anyway, so why not support the single player lifestyle just a wee bit further? I remember when I was playing ESO, there were a lot of people I just wanted to shut out of my experience. I don't mind teaming up now and then, and even being sociable on global channels and such... but there's usually about 99%+ of the server population I just don't need to interact with *right now* and I would like to have seen a sort of social filter to help with that.
Just a few lines of checkboxes to classify other players and determine who you want to be in phase with, for purposes of graphics and chat...
GAME _ CHAT
__[ ]_____[ ]__ Friends
__[ ]_____[ ]__ Guild
__[ ]_____[ ]__ Friends of Friends
__[ ]_____[ ]__ Friends of Guild Members
__[ ]_____[ ]__ Guild Members of Friends
__[ ]_____[ ]__ Everyone in level range +/- X
__[ ]_____[ ]__ Everyone
To me at least, it seems like something like this would not only be more productive and useful than "I don't like how you think, get out of my game!" as well as a great way to avoid spam/bots without needing an ignore list that reads like a phone book. Depending on how the "phasing" tech works in game, it may also vastly improve performance for those of us with less bandwidth or lower end systems. Plus it would support things like being able to do a guild meeting in some public location without having to deal with random passerby letting off fx-heavy powers just to vandalize your event. But mostly, it gives you control over how much of a social experience you're looking for in a game... Single Player, Squad Based, Guild Only, Lots of people who sorta know each other, or EVERYONE WHO FITS IN YOUR VIDEO CARD... play the way you want to, without having to limit the way other people want to play, and be able to change it easily whenever you want to.
Anyway, just an opinion. Discuss if you like... or not.
One of the reasons this project got off the ground was because CoH encouraged teamwork. solo play, and openness.
More then one time I saw people almost competing to be the most helpful in the Help chat. Best fun I had was helping New players get there first few levels, understand the game, and just smiling as they text in chat "THAT WAS AWESOME".
That very spirit we hope to preserve for CoT. I doubt the Phasing system will work but I do know the CoH chat had the options you listed. CoT chat system should be just as robust.
Me I would miss to much if I phased everyone out of the game. Not because I want to play with them I was primary a Solo runner myself. It the Costume Contests, the epic fight against the Giant Monster... The newbie who pulls off a Leeroy Jenkins and just because some Buffer/Healer was near got enough damage deflection and buffs Pulls off what ever he tried to do. Or the very rare cases where the Leeroy Jenkins does it on his/her own. Note I often tried to get as many mob argo on my Main Rotten Luck just to see how much punishment he could handle so I include myself in that group.
No I won't "Phase" anyone out even if I was SOLOing and hidden just because I would miss those moments. IF I was in such a mood that when I did the AE Mission architect stuff.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
MMOs are terrible single-player games. You would never put up with a tenth of their crap if it were a true single-player game. Solo play is an evolution to compensate for almost universal terrible group-creation mechanisms, from interface through sad prerequisites stopping people from joining mid-quest chain.
Grouping is the fun, and makes it seem like something is happening. Live invasions even moreso.
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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.
While I do think many MMOs fail at grouping due to how their missions work, their dungeons and such have tended to feel fine. I found it's more that some players are just to whiney to play a team game and so it ruins it for everyone.
Well, you may be right, but that's not been my personal experience.
I 75% soloed CoH and enjoyed it substantially more than any single player game that I've played. Maybe I'm just "that one guy".
Anyway, keep that philosophy, fine, but let me solo too, please :). If it's not too much trouble.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Not the only one that soloed CoH. Though CoH wasn't a normal MMO or we wouldn't be here.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
I'm with Empyrean and RottenLuck on this. Even when I wasn't teaming, the fact that the game world was dynamic and included others that I could encounter or even just observe made CoX far more interesting and long-lasting to me than most 1P games. I enjoyed teaming on occasion, but it wasn't the core of the game for me, and finding teams had nothing to do with this.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I was not a dedicated soloer but I did solo a lot because I absolutely detested spamming zone chat with "[power]/[AT] LFT" every couple of minutes for hours on end. I'd throw it out there once and then go do my own thing till I got an invite. Or not. Maybe repeat the availability after an hour or so or when going to a new zone.
I never fell in with any really active SGs to always have a team online whenever I felt like it.
It was nice that I could enjoy the game either way.
Nicer still that I could have fun lending a hand to unsuspecting lowbies with the odd heal or speed boost.
I suspect that if we had user-defined phasing we'd end up with hundreds of little pocket universes and never see anyone unexpected.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
It helps to have a SG. I was in a small but dedicated one (a coalition, actually, of them and my own vanity SG, which I maintained because I wanted control over base building.) They would run the ITF nightly, or sometimes another, and something more brutal weekends.
This was good. For that matter I loved helping lowbies in that group on their missions.
It helped immensly to get rid of that feeling of being cold and alone. Had a similar small group in SWG, and also in Tera. Worth it.
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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.
Most MMOs allow you to create specific channels, which would basically accomplish the OP's goals. If people want to solo in an MMO - awesome. CoH allowed the various player types (teamers vs. soloers - with the exception to certain ATs on the Heroes side) play. It was not well-oriented to PvP.
To me, the best aspects of CoH that I have yet to see in any game I have played since - teaming. From the great team building tool to find other players to the mission system that allowed the rewards of missions to be shared across the team (not just defeat enemy XP). The game had such great simplicity and ease in creating/leading teams - anyone could do it if they put a little time into it. Even for the Strike Forces, you could almost always create a team. Every other MMO I have played, the team finding features were severely lacking and no hope of ever getting better (was just not a priority for the game) and the missions for for the mission holder only, but others could participate. So - you ended up with a lot of soloing (no matter your play style) and would occasionally get help from your Guild. You were basically forced into guilding for help, and most games did not reward higher level characters that helped lower levels. GW2 implemented help rewarding later in the game, but the game was on a downward slope already.
An MMO should reward teaming - but not necessarily require it for all content. But, the average player chooses MMOs for the opportunity to play with others. Why not reward the play with others, teaming/grouping beyond your SG/Guild, and building a community? That end point I think is the root of MMOs - community. This varied by server on CoH, but for the most part I found CoH's communities better than any game I've played. Marvel Heroes 2015 comes in second - very helpful community. The game was simple enough that a new player could come in, put themselves into "LFG" through a simple toggle, join a team, and play - fairly quickly. This was hampered later in the game as populations decreased, but was still the best teaming mechanism I have seen - curious what other's opinions are compared to other MMOs (I've played CO, DCUO, Vanguard, GW2, AOC, Rift, EQ2, Marvel Heroes 2015, Wildstar, and some others I'm forgetting).
"it's a long road to wisdom, but it's a short one to being ignored." The Lumineers
That sounds interesting.
Kinda like my suggestion way back when.
But I wanted a Queue system for people LFG, instead of Broadcasting in the chat channels,
someone The Leader would create a New Team Forming, for TF, Arcs, Street Sweeping, lvl Ranges, # of existing players on team, etc... which would be visible to others.
Other players LFG can see the latest listing, sort/filter by a column (or two), choose one they find appealing, then click JOIN. :)
Of course, to make this even easier... all the missions that can be gotten from an NPC or other ways, would have an extra entry that the team Leader can click... (not the only way though)
ex:
- Accept Mission
- Accept Mission and Assemble Team (too Avengery? :/)
- Decline Mission
A NPC dialog option wouldnt be the Only way to Recruit a Team (or fill up an existing one to full capacity), just a convenience feature. QOL. ;)
Now for me, I never actually had the "LFG" team interface (well more like "advertising yourself board") actually work as *intended* for what I wanted.
On my server, we tended to actually recruit more through the channels rather than anything else, because using the LFG status thing needed constant updating.
The LFG interface for Incarnate content was broken. I have *NEVER* played a game that actually *prevented* you from doing your normal content whilst you were queuing up for other stuff. I couldn't run tips, I couldn't run a quick AE... nothing. It was street sweep/explore whilst waiting.
Which probably explains why on my server most people decided to actually avoid using it to build a team and instead just arrange everything in Pocket D.
But I guess that is a problem when you instance the vast majority of your content as well.
Having played Wildstar though quite a bit, I *tended* to just go with groups in my guild. However, with the dailies/contracts etc, I have actually been incentivised to team up with others (run the group content). And even as a DPS I actually haven't had all that much of a wait for Dungeon content (if you are not bothered about what you want to go for).
If you are looking for something *specific* though to run (Sanctuary of the Sword Maiden for attunement) you might not necessarily find a PUG willing to do that through the LFG interface, but I am sure that there are channels/circles out there that are dedicated to help people out with it though.
In both early CoX and current Wildstar though, at least on my server, if you shouted out for help with something (ie take down the big bad for a mission complete) then I know that people were willing to help out with that for you.
Side note: Admittedly when the attunement for Wildstar was harder than it currently was, it was not uncommon for people to throw their dummies out when something went wrong. HOWEVER, if you stated at the start that this was your first time *doing* said content at that difficulty, then most players were more than willing to help explain and not get wound up over it.
The annoying time is when you go into it and say nothing. I guess that it might well be a culture thing, but at least with the people I have played with, if you say nothing, we assume you know something about what to do.
And yes, I am one of those people who goes "Sorry, I am new here... shall I leave?" if I am in a "guild group" (ie I am the PUG member). Strangely those groups for me have been a *blast* as well.
Side note: Worst experience teaming was in CoX, when I was blind invited to a team that needed help in the shadowshards. They asked me in english, and then proceeded to spend the next hour talking entirely in french and ignoring
I think when City went free to play, the FTP players did not have the group find feature. For those of us that stayed sub-based, it was the best tool I've seen for team play in an MMO. When players entered into LFG (via toggle) they could add a short bit about them (power sets for instance). The Player search feature allowed you to not only find players LFG, but also those that weren't. Players that did not want to be seen could /hide themselves. I could form a team to do whatever in about a minute, typically - was a little longer towards the sad sad end...).
On the teaming note, I will also say that I like that City of Heroes had an 8-person team size, where most games seem to be 5. With the right scaling of bad guys, this was a blast.
On language barrier - I'm hoping (as I'm sure other nationalities are) for servers to be tagged by global region to help them be among familiar cultures should they choose.
"it's a long road to wisdom, but it's a short one to being ignored." The Lumineers
At least on my server, most people that I am aware off ended up leaving themselves on /hide to avoid the whole blind invite syndrome, even when you had it listed in your search message "Send a tell first".
Of course, it didn't help as well that the search was broken and only listed the first 50 players and no more of any single search.
Different server, different results. I am just going off what happened on my server.
Oh, and it also depended if you were using a friends list or global chat channels to help.
I remember someone saying something similar over in a facebook group and I then asked them how long it took them to do it without using a global channel. Turns out that they NEVER just used the interface because it took them too long to find a team, and instead used busy global channels to fulfill the job instead.
Just some anecdotal evidence, but anecdotal is anecdotal
The 8 man team size definitely allowed more for the cumulative stacking of buff/debuff to overcome issues that a team of 5 wouldn't be able to.
If CoX went for the team size of 4 or 5, then buffs/debuff's stacking *might not* have been as powerful.
Then again, most other games generally worked on a faster cycle of how long buff's/debuff's worked (quick cycle short duration), and then there are the cases of where they might not let multiple *stacks* of the same debuff/buff run at the same time (changes from game to game, some allow the stacking, others say just one stack, but a new application refreshes the duration)
So different approach leads to a different result.
And this is one thing that people might have to realise. The CoT team could potentially go down a slightly different route to CoX did when it comes to how the buff/debuff system works.
CoT is going for a single server setup (similar to how Champions Online works), although they might well initiate separate dedicated copies of a zone (similar to a 2nd/3rd Atlas park) but for those of a certain language.
Now that you mention it, I recall seeing the single server approach. Hopefully they allow for the creation of channels for players to join and create their individual communities and still participate in the larger community. The CO server set was ok, lag hit at some of the "zone" boundaries. There was another game I played that was similar (can't recall). Marvel Heroes has a single server and then several instances of the same zone - as players joined your team, a portal opened so they could join you in your zone.
I am now also recalling a discussion on the team size, but don;t recall if it involved the design team or not - will be interesting to see.
"it's a long road to wisdom, but it's a short one to being ignored." The Lumineers
The simple truth is the team experience in an MMO is different than the single player experience in the same MMO.
Teams have a dynamic that is not controllable by any one player on that team. Solo the player is the dynamic. Neither is right neither is wrong. It just is.
Sometimes you want to solo...others you want to team.
An MMO that is built around the concept of 'Team Content' will lose a portion of its audience because it does not offer flexibility of play. It used to be that MMO's used that metric and enforced it with the 'holy trinity'....WoW, DDO, Everquest, ect. Now the most successful MMO's provide a solid single player option throughout the game.
Now that's not to say that some content cant be designed specifically for a team.... but the team encounter needs something other than just stronger foes to require the team.
I agree completely. Balance and flexibility is what's needed. With CoH (the actual hero side) - Defenders and Controllers were almost forced into team play because of power constraints (blaster were not too far off). I think CoV brought better flexibility for players to solo if they chose. The archetypes presented so far in CoT seem like they will cater to solo play as well as team.
What CoH/CoV did specifically well is reward/promote team play (without detriment to soloers). Mission rewards shared across the team, scaling missions to team size, ease of looking for and forming a team (quickly), missions still provide soloers the same level of reward. CoX also implemented the mentoring/exemplaring mechanic to further support teaming and helping others. The blend of those aspects give a good balance/flexibility to play style (which honestly varies not only by player, but also for players each day - gamers can be moody too...).
Many of the trinity (and non-trinity) games I've played fail in sharing mission quest rewards - so you help others with missions either for the kill xp or out of the kindness of your heart (which varied greatly by game in my experience). In my experience, CoV did the best job of catering the the different play styles with maybe the exception of PvP (I did not PvP much, but CoX was not really a PvP-oriented game).
"it's a long road to wisdom, but it's a short one to being ignored." The Lumineers
Curious ... that wasn't my impression at all. I played Controllers before Containment, when Control Powers were actually STRONGER than they wound up being later on (their Mez power was nerfed in favor of increased Damage), and actually [i]preferred[/i] the original City of Statues style of Controller gameplay found in the original design. Granted it was [i]slower[/i] because the DPS wasn't as high, but it was also [i]safer[/i], which made up for that.
I didn't play any Defenders until after Praetoria was released, but even then, my Storm/Dual Pistols Defender never felt like I'd been railroaded into being a Team Only build. I even had an Empathy/Archery Defender ... who I felt was capable of competently soloing (not at +4x8, but still).
Granted, Controllers and Defenders "contributed more" to Team play than other Archetypes, but the difference wasn't so heavily weighted against soloing that I felt like I HAD TO Team just in order to get anything done. Heck, my Mind/Kinetics Controller (Ms Givings) soloed the entire Trapdoor/Honoree arc for enabling the Alpha slot, when my Ice/Ice Tanker couldn't!
So although this may have been the perception and common wisdom a lot of people held, I never believed it myself. I just had too much experience and evidence to the contrary. Controllers and Defenders were perfectly capable of soloing (heck, Dark and Storm Defenders could even TANK in a lot of circumstances!), so excuse me for not agreeing with your sentiment.
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I agree, Redlynne. Sometimes, on a team, everyone else would get dead, despite any healing I did, but once my Dark/Dark Defender got properly set up, Nothing could get through the debuffs to hurt me and one Howling Twilight later, everything goes terribly wrong for the other side.
My Controllers... almost never died. Sure, soloing a Controller is like a lazy stroll in the park, with occasional hand-waves to keep the locals honest and properly trending towards defeat. Or, one can team up with a Scrapper and smile, while they harvest the standing crops. Alternately, it was entirely possible to 'mana-burn' and match the Scrapper's output... for a short while. Usually, I just relaxed and let the DoTs do their job. And, I agree, Mind Controlling the Honoree to wipe-out his oppressors was pure justice.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Mostly I played Villain side. I did make a Dual Swords/Willpower Scrapper that eventually made it to 50, my only hero to reach the cap. Probably would have gone a lot quicker but around level 25 I got tired of listening to people complain about how Empathy and Archery were useless, so I went off and made an Empathy/Archery Defender.
Hands down my most fun character of them all! Those powersets got me into more trouble spots than I ever imagined were possible, and then pulled me out of them. Fun, challenging, but yeah, definitely not a combination for anyone who thinks "Empathy" means "Healer support for tank, useless to solo". Around level 40 when the servers went down, I probably played that character solo 80% of the time.
Careful selection of set bonuses was the key to survival, at least the way I played.
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My first character in CoX, and first character ever in an MMO was a fire/emp controller. That was painfully slow at the start, but I was stubborn. Yeah, some of the early level zones were *brutal* to go through (Hollows for example) and it wasn't uncommon for me to end up sucking wind, using brawl as my most effective ability or what not.
I think it took me the best part of a week (with quite a few hours spent doing it) getting out of Atlas park ( I believe I got lost in the sewers). It was a long hard slog, and 732 hours later, finally hit 50.
Granted, most of that was spent pre level 32, because as soon as I got my imps, it became a FAR easier/faster game.
Side note: EU server started on Issue 3, and I didn't know any better at the start.
But then again, there was also a lot more casual teaming, far more than what I had later on in the games life. Would I have taken that combination as a combination later on? More than likely not, at least not without knowing more about the game, but hey.. first MMO so I didn't know what I was doing.
I agree - I played a LOT of Defenders and Controllers and never had much problem soloing. There may have been a few more challenging levels early on before you had a good attack chain, or before an important primary power was available - and it may have been a bit slower than a scrapper's soloing - but they were still very viable despite being team-oriented force multipliers.
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that "solos well" is an extremely subjective description. It ranges everywhere from "can get through +0x1 content in a reasonable amount of time" to "Can blow through +5x8 with no trouble" and everything in between.
For what it was worth, I too had an Emp/Arch defender who had no trouble getting through the Power Overwhelming (Incarnate) arc, and she was far from optimized for strait combat.
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The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
That is the thing, I had no issues doing the Incarnate Arc... in fact I cake walked it on the Fire/Emp controller. And this was before they "nerfed" its difficulty on one of the bosses (the one that split apart). I guess that flying over lava and making that damage tick kill him was an exploit?
But it was getting up to 32 was a long hard slog. Teams made it far easier and faster in comparison (side note: This was all before the +0x1 stuff, when you just had the basic mission difficulties and couldn't fine tune it that much)
I have a feeling this was most of the outcry - and this was early in the game, but it seemed to stick with some of the devs and opinions in some of the communities. I played Controllers pre-ED too, loved them at 32+ (8-10 fire imps destroying fields of bad guys). They were a challenge for the firs 12-20 levels depending on the power sets (as were defenders). Or it might have been driven by (possible natural) imbalance in the ability of ATs/powersets to clear maps as fast as others - I do recall outry around that as well. A lot of it was also centered on Empathy Defenders, which were tough early on.
However, it's a super hero game. CoX did a good job of making you feel super for the most part - some classes had more trouble than others, but a super hero game should make you feel super. I just wonder where the balance strikes - how many same level minions should (SHOULD) be able to "subdue" a super hero? Would be curious what this will be in CoT.
I remember the werewolf map where a good tank would herd the entire map and a blaster would nuke them. Fun, but a little beyond feeling super. I had always wished they would implement a "mob" buff that escalates NPC abilities as the mob increases in size. They "chain" effect was fairly effective as well.
"it's a long road to wisdom, but it's a short one to being ignored." The Lumineers
Nemesis mobs tended to do this when you took out their lieutenants... and then there was the Devouring Earth where the various cairns and stuff could buff them/debuff you to silly amounts if you let them get out of hand.
So it was done... just not throughout the game. The thing to remember as well is that stuff like this *can* be viewed as "forced teaming missions" when they do crop up.
So it is a push and give situation. Then again, I remember diving into a mission with a team, us getting one hit KO'd (as it were) and then the team leader running back to drop the difficulty because he realised it was set for HIM and not for the rest of the team (and how they were built up).
Not everyone plays at the same difficulty. Me? I personally left it down low because I found it easier to play at *most* at +1 x3 or +2x1 difficulty (depending on mob type of course), but other players would find it better for them to go higher up.
It is a personal thing, and it is also something that takes a LOT of tweaking/data mining to find out exactly what the various settings should be.
I liked the customization CoX gave (later in the game) to scaling and difficulty of play - added to the ease and fun of the game, teaming, open mission structure, etc.
"it's a long road to wisdom, but it's a short one to being ignored." The Lumineers
Most fun I ever had in a duo was with /Archery characters. We had a whole team of /Archery Defenders later and we had a blast.
I like to solo sometimes. Maybe I'm being anti-social. Maybe I have something going on in RL and might have to leave in a hurry (I hate being 'that guy'). Sometimes I just want to stroll through the story arc, read everything and smell the flowers. Many teams are all about GOGOGO! and that doesn't always suit me. If I pay the same sub as anyone else and my playstyle doesn't grief anyone else then I should be allowed to play as I wish.
On the other hand, nothing feels as good as a good team. I had more friends from plain old good PUGs than I can remember. Some people are just FUN to play with.
One of the reasons why I've lobbied for a Danger Room type of place to practice is to help show new people how to have fun and survive. I remember CoH on a solo Blaster way back when and without help from friendly players I would never have gotten anywhere.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...