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Some successful Idea's for PvP

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Ryisen
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Some successful Idea's for PvP

I have been a part of many, many types of MMORPG's over the years, whether they were Open world, Sandbox, whatever classification you you bring up I have most likely been a part of it. It goes all the way back to Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, City of Heros, DC Universe, Age of Conan and everything in between all the way up to Conan Exiles, Gloria Victis, Life is Feudal and so on. So I have seem many many failures in the realm of PvP. One unsolved puzzle in super hero type games seems to be the PvP aspect because of the balancing issues with the powers, I can understand the issue because pairing a few powers together from a few players can create a dominating force, not only that but having the ability to upgrade those powers along the way through leveling, buying upgrades, Drops and so on can also provide a player with a great advantage over a lot of other players.

So...here is some idea's for a successful (What I consider successful) start when CoT implements PvP into the game.

#1. Open world PvP, This by far seems to the be most successful and loved by all players in games that I have played most recently. The idea of being able to log in and get into immediate action is what large number of players want these days, because lets face it, once you are capped on level and towards the end game this is the style of PvP that keeps players logging in daily even when the most hardcore player only has say 30 minutes to an hour to play. On the same token, there will need to be provided a safe zone or a few to keep the other players safe who just love the story line quests, or just PvE grouping. My idea, Have the higher tier zones...i.e. level 40 - 50 that you have to log into to get to large scale end game content, but also have it a PvP zone where players can fight for the right to farm a boss area. Not only that but a large portion of the map just a mass PvP zone.

#2. Players also want some recognition for being out there defending or hunting down villains in PvP..aka other players. There should be some thought to impliment a point based system, example: A level 40 player kills a level 50 player in a PvP zone, that lower level player will receive points based on the difficulty of him taking down a higher player. These point then could be spent once a lot have been accumulated on gear, or special powers to that can only be used in assisting him a PvP zone. Similar to the Realm Point system in Dark Age of Camelot. You could call it Fame, or Renown points. Also a continually updated point list on a web site somewhere would be helpful and keep players out there and in the PvP zones, it's a drive towards a goal.

#3. PvP controlled areas for Guild or Clans. This is another idea to keep players out in the PvP zones. Areas that Guilds, Clans, whatever you want to call them in game, that players can control to obtain materials for crafting better armors, mods to amplify their powers and so forth. I have never seen this idea in a Super Hero game and would like to. It would definitely give it a unique twist.

#4. Resistances and attack bonuses.! With a game like this where a player can potentially be attacked on an X, y, and Z, angles. I would like to see the potential for powers to be potentially cancelled by other players as a form of crowd control, if a player is flying overhead a tank type character, who only has jump that battle will not go so well, unless that tank has the ability to pull the flying player to the ground somehow. You can see this will get into the balancing issues that will come about in the early stages of the game.

I could go on and on because I really enjoy PvP in most games and I hope this game will have better more in-depth PvP action.

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Well, I believe the plan is

Well, I believe the plan is to have a PvP instance of the game. That's because the majority of our community has zero interest in PvP.

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In what I have seen, in games

In what I have seen, in games that want to include PvP, the classes themselves all have to be viable. This means that classes that aren't viable, like dedicated healers, really have no place in PvP unless they are part of a team. Arenas make 1v1 PvP an optional thing so support specialists need not apply. And team PvP such as 5v5 or 20v20 are excellent showcases for good support players. But if you want open world PvP, you'd have to find a way to make healers and tanks and support classes viable in solo PvP.

I thoroughly enjoy PvP and that's why I am supporting Camelot Unchained. But unless CoT is 100% dedicated to PvP like CU is, I see open world PvP being a hindrance to CoT rather than a benefit. It is all about having to make sure the character classes are all balanced against each other.

So I would expect to see some arena PvP and some battlefield PvP between teams, but I would personally not want to see open world PvP for the sole reason that the developers would have to design the support and healer classes to be viable in that environment. I would prefer my support and healer characters to be able to specialize as supporters and healers without worry of being ineffectual in PvP.

City of Heroes had some PvP areas where anyone could fight against anyone. These have been the subject of more than a few threads in these forums and I can't repeat all that has been discussed therein. So for further opinions on open world PvP you could look in them to see the kinds of things people discuss, fond stories and frustrating ordeals.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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The issue with a system of

The issue with a system of PvP in a game that increases your health etc through leveling will always cause problems. In Open PvP you will always get a subsection of the community that will pick off newer targets so that they can never risk losing.

As some others say a game really needs to be designed round open pvp, ive always viewed the best way to do that in a super hero/villain game would be to have a standard hp rate that can increase only through taking an ability that affects the health pool, that way everyone both player and npc have similar hp levels and it becomes viable for a newer player to get lucky and take out that boss etc.

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Quote:
Quote:

#1. Open world PvP, This by far seems to the be most successful and loved by all players in games that I have played most recently. The idea of being able to log in and get into immediate action is what large number of players want these days, because lets face it, once you are capped on level and towards the end game this is the style of PvP that keeps players logging in daily even when the most hardcore player only has say 30 minutes to an hour to play. On the same token, there will need to be provided a safe zone or a few to keep the other players safe who just love the story line quests, or just PvE grouping. My idea, Have the higher tier zones...i.e. level 40 - 50 that you have to log into to get to large scale end game content, but also have it a PvP zone where players can fight for the right to farm a boss area. Not only that but a large portion of the map just a mass PvP zone.

I like the idea of PvP. I like the ingenuity of players to use powers in interesting and creative ways.

What I dislike are PvPers. The vast majority of my discontent with them comes initially from CoX and their PvP community. And that's not to say that I haven't tried time and time again in the various games (TSW, Rift, SWTOR, etc) that I've played since the sunsetting of CoX, but I've been proven repeatedly that they're cut from the same cloth. Not all of them, sure, since I also dislike broad generalizations, but the overall collective of them behaves in the same infuriating manner no matter what environment you put them in.

If it's Open World PvP, I won't step foot in the game. I won't step foot in any game that has open world PvP, for that matter. And I can honestly say that most people that I played with would also not play a game that has open world PvP. Open world PvP removes the option for people to even do PvE. If you're going to have a game that allows players flexibility in how they want to advance their characters, such as solo or grouped, then having the entirety of the world map being a place where you can get ganked, camped, your loot stolen and/or your home invaded and possibly taken, and therefore your fun time ruined for the sake of someone else's enjoyment isn't even the vaguest notion of an option.

Quote:

Well, I believe the plan is to have a PvP instance of the game. That's because the majority of our community has zero interest in PvP.

I, for one, hope this is the case. Again, I enjoy PvP from time to time, but I most certainly believe that there should be a divide between PvE and PvP because that allows options for people that enjoy either or both.

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Am I seeing things, or did I

Am I seeing things, or did I just post a reply in another identical thread?

(insert pithy comment here)

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Nope. A nearly identical

Nope. A nearly identical thread, without some grammar corrections in the OP that this one had. Think of this as http://cityoftitans.com/forum/some-successful-ideas-pvp-0, and that one as http://cityoftitans.com/forum/some-successful-ideas-pvp
^_^

But the other one is the one where Dr. Tyche posted, so it has extra defense against the Monitors.

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I would like something such

I would like something such as attacking hero or villain HQ as a group. Siege if you will. Guys getting blasted off balcony, dudes knocked out on stair cases, etc.

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I agree with the OP that more

I agree with the OP that more recognition and glory for the PvPers that participate would be welcome. Competitive people love glory.

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I don't understand ppl that

I don't understand ppl that are against open world PVP. If you are against it, just don't go to those areas. I think it should be exactly like COH where certain areas were open. They weren't huge areas, but they were intricate enough to have enough hiding places.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I don't understand ppl that are against open world PVP. If you are against it, just don't go to those areas. I think it should be exactly like COH where certain areas were open. They weren't huge areas, but they were intricate enough to have enough hiding places.

True open world PvP is anywhere in the game, all the time. Zoned PvP would be defined differently, as in there are places that are designated PvP where it's entirely voluntary and you'd have to willfully make the decision to go there. I believe it's been said previously that if/when they do implement PvP, it will be zoned.

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As someone who didn't PvP

As someone who didn't PvP much at all, but some, I don't understand anti-PvP sentiment. Just don't make me HAVE to PvP if I don't want to, but let them have their fun too. I might even jump in once in a while (probably to get my butt whooped :P).

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PVP became something

PVP became something addicting to me. It was like a drug. I played a stalker and a Dom and it was such a thrill pwning another player and talking trash. It became a strategy, a hunt, and changed the whole aspect of the game for me. From time to time it was fun to just hang out and talk about random crap but knowing that at any moment you could get targeted and ganked made it so much more fun.

I remember this one time, I was happily flying back to my base, and I was so close but I suddenly got tped into a giant crate. Of course, my toon kept on flying and it took me a second to realize what was happening but by the time I figured it out, the blaster's mines and traps had exploded and killed me. I think I spent the rest of the night trying to seek out revenge.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I don't understand ppl that are against open world PVP. If you are against it, just don't go to those areas. I think it should be exactly like COH where certain areas were open. They weren't huge areas, but they were intricate enough to have enough hiding places.
True open world PvP is anywhere in the game, all the time. Zoned PvP would be defined differently, as in there are places that are designated PvP where it's entirely voluntary and you'd have to willfully make the decision to go there. I believe it's been said previously that if/when they do implement PvP, it will be zoned.

We have something that is rather a mix of the two. The entirety of Titan City will have its own pvp phase. Which is open world pvp - with rules to prevent ganking and some nifty ideas for earnjng rewards. However, you have to choose to enter into the pvp phase.


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So let's say there's a

That sounds like a horrible idea to me. Like a lazy way to just layer pvp and pve zones over each other so you don't have to focus on each one separately.

Let's say there's a costume contest in an area much like Atlas Park going on, and from what it sounds like, Instead of being able to enjoy the contest and just chatting with other players in local, you may experience a ganking going on in the middle of it because some players are in pvp phase fighting each other?

sigh

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Characters in another phase

Characters in another phase/instance are not visible or interact-able in this phase.instance. If you want to be in PvP, get into PvP. If you don't want to PvP, get Out of there.

If the Devs had made the other choice, only allowing PvP in certain, designated places, then somebody would be complaining 'that's not Open World enough'.

Be Well!
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Characters in another phase/instance are not visible or interact-able in this phase.instance. If you want to be in PvP, get into PvP. If you don't want to PvP, get Out of there.
If the Devs had made the other choice, only allowing PvP in certain, designated places, then somebody would be complaining 'that's not Open World enough'.
Be Well!
Fireheart

In that case, I can see that as being acceptable. Thanks for explaining the phase/instance to me.

However, I don't quite agree that there would be too many complaints if they chose to have designated PvP zones. I don't see why people would complain about that if they had gone that route.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I don't see why people would complain about that if they had gone that route.

Ah, I'm sorry to point it out, but 'people' are often jerks. *smile*

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Fireheart wrote:
Characters in another phase/instance are not visible or interact-able in this phase.instance. If you want to be in PvP, get into PvP. If you don't want to PvP, get Out of there.
If the Devs had made the other choice, only allowing PvP in certain, designated places, then somebody would be complaining 'that's not Open World enough'.
Be Well!
Fireheart
In that case, I can see that as being acceptable. Thanks for explaining the phase/instance to me.
However, I don't quite agree that there would be too many complaints if they chose to have designated PvP zones. I don't see why people would complain about that if they had gone that route.

A key advantage (at least for the Devs) of doing PvP with the phase/instance concept is that you don't have to spend time creating completely unique zones that are STRICTLY dedicated to PvP.

TBH, it always seemed a little bit weird in CoH to have to physically travel between different zones just to essentially flip my virtual "enable PvP" switch. Now it sounds like you'll literally be flipping an "enable PvP" switch which will let you PvP in the EXACT SAME physical zones that the rest of the city uses.

P.S. Besides didn't always seem weird that you had to travel all the way to Recluse's Victory just to be able to PvP in a zone that looked identical to Atlas Park? ;)

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In a game that's just heroes

In a game that's just heroes vs. villains, it's pretty clear how you can split zones between blue, red, and PvP.

In this game, with its three-orthogonal-axis alignment system, it's not clear at all how you'd do that. If there were, say, three steps on each axis (-1, 0, +1), that's 27 combinations. (Five steps gets you to 125 combinations.) Good luck figuring out how to keep all those zones straight and where to park someone.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Let's say there's a costume contest in an area much like Atlas Park going on, and from what it sounds like, Instead of being able to enjoy the contest and just chatting with other players in local, you may experience a ganking going on in the middle of it because some players are in pvp phase fighting each other?

Why would ANYONE ever hold something as social as a Costume Contest in a PvP Free For All zone?
Why wouldn't people routinely hold their Costume Contests in the PvE zone?


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Why would ANYONE ever hold something as social as a Costume Contest in a PvP Free For All zone?
Why wouldn't people routinely hold their Costume Contests in the PvE zone?

Wolfgang8565 initially misunderstood the difference between a dedicated PvP zone and a PvP zone instance. Apparently instead of having dedicated PvE and PvP zones in CoT the Devs plan to have multiple instances of city zones so that some instances are flagged for PvE and others are PvP. This way you could have open PvP in any city zone - you just have to be in the right instance of that zone to do that.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
Why would ANYONE ever hold something as social as a Costume Contest in a PvP Free For All zone?
Why wouldn't people routinely hold their Costume Contests in the PvE zone?
Wolfgang8565 initially misunderstood the difference between a dedicated PvP zone and a PvP zone instance. Apparently instead of having dedicated PvE and PvP zones in CoT the Devs plan to have multiple instances of city zones so that some instances are flagged for PvE and others are PvP. This way you could have open PvP in any city zone - you just have to be in the right instance of that zone to do that.

^^
^_^

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Or you could have them in

Or you could have them in whatever passes for a dance party zone. (All alignments allowed, no combat, etc.)

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Clearly all CCs are going to

Clearly all CCs are going to be held in the Orbit room. 'cause it's the coolest place we've heard about.

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So, what we need for CCs is a

So, what we need for CCs is a Theatre, like in CO?

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I hope PvP is fun just like

I hope PvP is fun just like in CoH. I always had fun logging in for a few minutes just to team up with some buddies and go take it to some heroes. Who here remembers Freedom Server PvP. Man I had some good times in RV. Hoping CoT can recreate that feeling.

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Oh, good. A PvP switch. I was

Oh, good. A PvP switch. I was worried it'd be Open World PvP all the time.

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Fireman314 wrote:
Fireman314 wrote:

I hope PvP is fun just like in CoH. I always had fun logging in for a few minutes just to team up with some buddies and go take it to some heroes. Who here remembers Freedom Server PvP. Man I had some good times in RV. Hoping CoT can recreate that feeling.

My experience with PvP in CoX was go into PvP zone, look around a bit, get OHKO'd by a stalker, repeat.

But then again I've never found PvP all that fun. I either get killed so easily that I probably shouldn't have bothered or when I am winning the other person logs out, or finds some other way to deny me a victory.

Hopefully CoT can make PvP fun for even someone like me but that's probably a really tall order.

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I love the IDEA of open world

I love the IDEA of open world PVP. I love seeing someone of equivalent power and getting the jump on them, or getting jumped and trying to come out on top. I have fond memories in such situations in times where leveling took longer and end game meant less. But that's because the problem lies in one little idea. Equivalent Power.

The reality of 95% in all open world PVP are power gaming individuals who mathed out all the tricks who's only goal is to camp you until you log out, people playing burst classes who entirely rely on killing you in less than a second, and those who just gank lower level players.

Open world pvp just doesn't draw in those looking for some fun fights, it draws in those who want to dominate until you give up and log out. Super Hero games also bring in some interesting questions of balance. How effective does crowd control get to be? How invulnerable do defensive heroes get to be? Does the ranged lethal sniper get to make his 1 shot kill from 100 yards away just because anyone who closes the distance will beat his complete lack of defense?

This game doesn't even have an actual hero/villain divide, so it's not even as if you have faction guards, or faction base to protect you. How many level 30's will be lurking by the level 5 contacts three days after launch?

I say this as someone who loves PVP, but it's often terrible. I look forward to seeing the details about how it's going to work in CoT.

edit: Spelling and grammar

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I feel the same way as you,

I feel the same way as you, McJigg. I was hoping for a PvP world that would provide gameworld consequences for PvP actions, like how sandbox worlds have outlaws for instance. I even came up with a system for it. But none of that will exist here.

The way MWM are envisioning PvP, it is a free for all. There will be no moral immersion to provide consequences to any PvP actions and no allies other than the people who tell you they won't kill you right now. In fact, the way they have it set up, it is all about building your personal PvP score.

So anyone wanting to run any mission content would be better off just running it in the PvE dimension and then swapping over to PvP when they want to hunt a different prey. The way MWM is envisioning the PvP dimension, it will exist only for the people you would expect who want it that way. I personally don't think the Venn diagram of CoT prospective players overlaps this particular PvP target audience at all, but maybe they're trying to expand and reach out to the eSports crowd with it.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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The real challenge with world

The real challenge with world PvP is figuring out how to discourage what amounts to curb stomping. All it takes is a few PCs at the Level Cap going around "punishing" lowbies who have no hope of defending themselves against someone at the Level Cap and you wind up with punitive PvP where the purpose is essentially trolling, rather than the challenge in fighting fair. Griefing in PvP has a long an thoroughly inglorious history, and is really something that any computer game should go out of its way to discourage, rather than turn a blind eye towards.


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I, for one, have very little

I, for one, have very little interest in PvP in this game. Even in systen s of having 'outlaws' or 'player killers', it rarely seems to help in the case of someone camping out the low zones and murderiing the newbies. Turned me off of a few games.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

The real challenge with world PvP is figuring out how to discourage what amounts to curb stomping. All it takes is a few PCs at the Level Cap going around "punishing" lowbies who have no hope of defending themselves against someone at the Level Cap and you wind up with punitive PvP where the purpose is essentially trolling, rather than the challenge in fighting fair. Griefing in PvP has a long an thoroughly inglorious history, and is really something that any computer game should go out of its way to discourage, rather than turn a blind eye towards.

I'm not sure that's how it will be, either.

The way MWM have communicated it to us, there will be disincentives for that kind of action. The first is they've said that there will be level windows (MWM calls it a level lens) such that people can only fight with others at around the same level. Second is that there will be very few rewards for that kind of behavior. Rather, the rewards for killing in PvP will be found in fighting people with a higher notoriety (PvP "value"). But of course, the people who exist to curb stomp are probably not doing it for any reason other than the feeling of power and dominance, so the act is the reward for them.


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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:

I love the IDEA of open world PVP. I love seeing someone of equivalent power and getting the jump on them, or getting jumped and trying to come out on top. I have fond memories in such situations in times where leveling took longer and end game meant less. But that's because the problem lies in one little idea. Equivalent Power.

I am in complete agreement with you. Open world PvP as a concept is so interesting but just does not live up to it's potential in a MMO setting. And it is largely due to what you state here, equivalent power.

This equivalent power problem does not become problematic just when comparing one character's higher level vs another character's lower level or a larger group fighting a smaller one. It also deals with certain powers being more suitable in a PvP setting than others, gear discrepancies, specific (and often underhanded) tactics far outweighing open confrontation and some classes simply being less effective than others.

Open world PvP in a MMO which is heavily focused around character building, will have far too many ways that the playing field can be unbalanced which results in unsatisfactory or unfair competition.

Empyrean
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It seems l to me that MWM's

It seems to me that MWM's overall attitude towards PvP has always been basically "we're not a PvP game; we will allow it--we'll even create a separate space for it--but we're not going to focus on it."

Personally, I'm cool with that stance. I'll probably give it a go once in a long while for the novelty of it like I did in CoH.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Well, if anyone has good

Well, if anyone has good ideas for ways that PvP can be structured, such that it's not an antisocial mess, I'm sure the Devs would entertain the subject.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

The way MWM have communicated it to us, there will be disincentives for that kind of action. The first is they've said that there will be level windows (MWM calls it a level lens) such that people can only fight with others at around the same level. Second is that there will be very few rewards for that kind of behavior. Rather, the rewards for killing in PvP will be found in fighting people with a higher notoriety (PvP "value"). But of course, the people who exist to curb stomp are probably not doing it for any reason other than the feeling of power and dominance, so the act is the reward for them.


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There is only 2 PVP modes in

There is only 2 PVP modes in MMOs that I liked. The open world war of Guild Wars 2. Or the arena 3v3 tag based PVP of Blade and Soul.

The war one MIGHT work, but probably not. This is because of the movement powers making either movement from point A to point B to quick. Or making the world excessively large, which could be difficult. The siege equipment could be high tech canons or magical devices? But again, probably wont work.

The 3v3 tag based PVP could actually work. Maybe increase it to 5v5. There is a certain tactical element to it that I just love. Where if you tag in to assist your ally or to punish the enemy, you better be sure. Same thing with swapping with your ally. Swapping at the wrong time could be a horrible idea.

But of course, those PVP elements work well in their respective MMOs, which might not work in CoT. Just pointing out some PVP in MMOs that I like, and aren't just something tacked on.

Unarmed combat best combat. Every media
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Renkage wrote:
Renkage wrote:

The 3v3 tag based PVP could actually work. Maybe increase it to 5v5.

4v4
8v8


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.