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Hey Doc -- since you mentioned you were playing Skyrim lately, I was just wondering: as you play, are there any things about the game that make you think, "Oh man, I really want to add that to CoT!"?
Also curious whether there are things (like maybe the mission list mechanics discussed in another thread) that you would definitely NOT want to have in CoT.
Spurn all ye kindle.
It's funny you referenced Skyrim in terms of "looking for things that might work in CoT" considering that Elder Scrolls Online is going live in just 3 days (at least for the early access people). I suppose there could be some things that MMO will do that might be useful for CoT to borrow as well.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The biggest thing I fear playing Skyrim lately is that I get so use to the controls I wouldn't want to go back to the tab system. ESO is alright... that's the problem it's just alright I didn't really see anything that thrilling. Fun yes, but not any risk taking it's just another fantasy MMO. Doing quests I ended up having to wait for someone else to finish before I could fight that one baddie. It was also distracting when the story said it was just me and one NPC in the location and there were other players.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
Yeah the "public dungeon" thing is always a bit off-putting. I guess like every MMO that kind of thing will be real bad in the first few weeks as everyone is trying to scramble to get through the low levels to get to the "end game".
I'm probably going to give ESO a try anyway. Don't really see myself playing it for years the way I played CoH, but it might have some surprises that again might be worth suggesting for CoT. I guess we'll see.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Interesting. For me, every time I have a fight in Skyrim I wish for tab targeting. We each like what we like, I guess. :-)
I hope the majority of content in CoT will be instanced to avoid these kinds of occurrences, which are -- for me -- incredibly immersion-breaking.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I found it quite amusing reading on the CoX forums (when they were up) people complaining about the instancing used for the Story line missions (ie the private areas).
I have no problem with instancing par se, I did have a problem with the excessive instancing that CoX had though. Just my tuppence on that point of view though.
In my experience most of the complaints against CoH instancing were related to slow load times that kept some people waiting a relatively long time to jump into missions. If you didn't like the amount of time it took for you to get into missions then I could see where it might have seemed like CoH used the mechanism "excessively". On the other hand if you loaded into missions pretty quickly you probably hardly even noticed how much "instancing" was going on.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
For me the irritation with instanced content really hit home with TFs, especially since they were so frequently speed runs. That was doubly true when playing a mastermind.
The only circumstances that turn the lack of instancing into an irritation is when the game is specifically designed to stymie players. E.g. The mission objective is a single target (particularly when it has an excessively long respawn timer), there are barely enough mobs/items for one player let alone if two or three happen to be on that mission, etc. Excessive instancing is little more than replacing one kind of poor and lazy mission design with another. Since a lot of instanced missions are going to be unavoidable due to the nature of the setting, I'd certainly appreciate it if MWM made the effort to maximize non-instanced content.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
To put it into context let's say you could rate a game's use of instancing on a scale from 1 to 10 where 1 would be like practically no instancing at all and 10 would be 100% instancing. I'd rate CoH at a solid 8 on that scale.
For me I could see CoT pull back from that to some degee, but I don't think "maximizing" non-instanced content would be good either. For me a game that rated about a 4 or 5 on the scale would be just about right,
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think that part of these complaints could be resolved by general tweaks though instead of going "bugger it, lets instance the content". You could increase the drop rates for stuff (murlocs eyes are a common example from WoW for example, where the drop rate was *screwed* for a period of time), making the larger/qualifier for killing X mob count (so if you get a mission to kill 30 mobs of X type, even those that are in instanced missions count) or by making it easier to share credit for the kills (Guild Wars 2/Wildstar for example do this, as there is no such thing as "mob tagging"), maybe even going the route of "if the mobs are higher level, they count more towards the completion number" (wildstar does this as well). General respawn timers as well...
I would have put CoX at a 9... because with the exception of the "street sweep missions" and "kill X mobs" for an achievement, all the content was pretty much instanced. It was less in the lower levels, but the higher up you went, the more you found being instanced.
There are places where I would suggest instancing over open world (Kill the big bad at the end of quest chain for example), dungeons and raids, and where dramatic could make sense.
Hell, you could even so far as "those people on THIS mission when they enter THIS door they are all in the same mission". So a "semi private" instance that would prevent random others from being a dick... it wouldn't necessarily wipe it out, but it could end up being interesting to think about.
(side note: For this I am thinking that each mission instance can only hold up to 1 team of players before another is spun up. There would be an option in your settings that you can set to do "always solo/my team" or "open to others coming in" so you can choose how this goes. Settings get taken from the team leader... what this could result in is the "surprise back up" coming in and helping out...)
I'd agree with Gangrel that CoX was a 9.
I'll disagree with Gangrel by saying 9 is where I think it should be. :-) We've discussed this elsewhere; each preference is a valid one.
For me, the main problem with non-instanced content is not whether it interferes with completion so much as the extremely gamey design choices that are usually made to get around the inherent difficulties of open world content: e.g. respawning. Nothing breaks my suspension of disbelief quite like seeing those mobs I just defeated or AT-AT I just blew up magically reappear 20 seconds later.
Besides, open world content ties the devs' hands a bit: remember the burning Cimerora incarnate mission? The lava filled Hollows from SSA1? It gives the devs more creative freedom.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I didn't mean to infer that it was meant to stay at a 9.... but that if instancing was going to be used, there are cases where *it could* still be used (like CoX) without necessarily 100% segregating you from other players in the outside world... just a few other tweaks as it were to what CoX already did with its instancing content.
It is worth noting that CoX *did* at the very end start using "public instances" without phasing (One of the missions in Atlas park post Freedom), where you had to get a clicky. Other people could enter inside and join in with you.
Do it for special missions, do it for dungeons/raids... just try not to stick *everything possible* into an instance.
What I really liked about instanced content in CoH was that you could tailor the spawns to a preferred difficulty. That's a feature I'd really like to keep in CoT. I'm hardly against open world content, But I'd like to keep the story arcs mostly instanced.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
On that we can agree. Despite my preference for instanced missions, I still liked the occasional "Kill 10 x" mishs. And of course there are the GMs, which worked nicely in an open environment. Your semi-private instancing would be ok with me, especially if it had the option you suggest of turning it off when you wanted private.
Wow, my memory is going: what was the "public instance" with the glowie in Atlas? I can remember entirely public glowie mishs in Praetoria, and some public kill mishs in Atlas (with the dreaded respawning), but nothing that fits your description of a "public instance."
Oh yeah, excellent point. I completely forgot about that feature!
Spurn all ye kindle.
One thing for sure. Drops should be for everyone none of that first come first served BS. I was shocked to see that it was that way for ESO.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
Agreed. If your team helped defeat it, you should get at least a share of the benefits: Drops, xp, credit towards the mission if you have it. This would at least lessen the complaints of "kill-stealing"
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
It wasn't an instance, really. The first "Hellion Artifacts" mission from Matthew Habashy in the grey caves under the bridge over the pond.
True, but I believe that if you *DIDNT* have the mission in your log, you couldn't enter it... so that would make it a form of instancing.
Of course, I could well be wrong on that, it has been a while obviously.
And in terms of loot, I would say that ANYONE that has contributed towards the battle in a meaningful way (ooh contention here, but it can be done) can get loot. So someone who is healing/buffing someone who is in a fight with a mob could get loot from a mob without necessarily attacking it. That is the hard part to work out (the non damage aspect), but it *can* be done (if you put enough work towards it).
I never intend for the "no tagging, only 1 person gets loot"... although I would at least expect it so that even some players who have low damage output should be able to get onto the "reward list"... but without the need for it to be "just one hit, no matter how weak it is will reward you".
Just to throw in my two cents and vote, I do not like the "need/greed" systems in CO, DCUO, or TSW. If there must be loot, I preferred the random "you get what you get" drops in CoH. One less annoying thing to worry about.
I really wish I understood what design purpose time-wasters like having to pay attention to and compete over pieces of loot, traveling across a whole map to repair armor in the middle of a mission, or clicking to officially "finish" and clear out a mission, etc. are meant to serve.
As a matter of fact, when I first started playing CoH--coming from a comic book rather than a gaming background--loot struck me as really out of place. The Fantastic Four never raided Dr. Doom for pieces of his armor or lab and Spiderman never grabbed bits of Doc Ock's arms to take home.
But... loot seems to be an embedded gaming convention that isn't going to go any where, and I got used to it in CoH. Just thought of it as my powers improving over time rather than rifling through defeated villains pockets and wallets.
I just think in general when possible, a more vague system that allows you to decide what's happening, like enhancements were, is better. Ok, you just enhanced your strength! How? You decide--mutation, tech, science, training.
Or (for whatever design purpose it evidently serves) you need to take a break in the middle of a battle and run across a map--but let us decide if it's to repair armor or to heal and rest, or re-charge your power ring.
Or just don't have that annoying mechanic :).
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
In part you've answered your own question: they're meant to make the player spend more time in the game. Such things are no different than travel paths that take the very scenic route (WoW used to have some egregious examples of this, akin to traveling from Paris to Berlin via Stockholm). Repairing armor and the like are mere money sinks (although I've yet to see an example where it was anyone but the player's fault if they had to repair your armor in the middle of a mission).
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I have no problem with that at all to be fair. Although I do play (and have played whilst CoX was up and running) other MMOs where loot gets allocated to the "person who hit it" I prefer the systems where everyone stands a chance of getting loot (so your own personal roll). WoW does this in the LFR raids... and it is a mechanic that I wished they brought more to the fore for their normal raids.
To be fair, the whole armour/gear repair scenario I always come up with my own reasoning behind that "mechanics" of it... In reality it is not really meant to be a time sink, but more of a cash sink. The "clicking to finish a mission", no idea. Only really experienced it in CoH, and that was (I believe) to help players get out of missions easier (especially on some of the more confusing maps).
It is a bit of a disconnect there, especially in the comic book scenario... although I can imagine cases WHERE it can be used (and possibly to great effect). Although the loot wont be *from* the mission directly, it would be a *reward* for getting the Doom-do-hickey of Doom away from him (villains could use it to their own advantage)
And that is how I generally think about it as well, no matter the game I am playing. It might break the setting for the game world, but it *works for me*
Mechanic is generally used as a cash sink. Without it, you have to reduce the overall cash flow from "killing mobs" (which is where the money comes from initially, with less from "mission completes"), and then balance it along with other costs that the game has (ie cost to get more gear/enhance abilities... cost for housing, AH transaction costs etc etc).
It is one factor though that you can more easily tweak and then notice. Guild Wars 2 have removed repair costs, but to do this, they are having to drop the overall money gain from killing champion class mobs (as to how much though right now, I am not sure).
(It is worth noting that the changes that are coming through in Guild Wars 2 are also partly due to it launching in China soon).
And there are some complete disconnects in the way the loot and gear mechanics work in-game with the character classes. Take SWTOR, for example; it's reasonable that a Bounty Hunter character would scavenge supplies and usable gear from the people they kill -- they don't need it any more, and they've got expenses -- and use it themselves or sell it to buy better gear (likewise Smugglers), but the Trooper is a member of the Republic military -- why do they have to scavenge the dead for cash and gear to buy their own combat gear? Wouldn't that be [b][i]issued[/i][/b] to them by the Republic? Similarly on the Imperial side, while an Agent might scavenge gear from fallen victims for specific uses, the majority of their gear should be issued by Imperial Intelligence. Certainly they've got enough funding to hand out a [i]starship[/i]; the Agent's gear costs should be lost in the noise.
It can be funny to see a Trooper and their companion -- one of the members of Havoc Squad under the player's character -- with gear that has a radically different appearance from the character's; there's a reason they're called "[b]uniforms[/b]". But I suppose that's a question of roleplaying; I've seen enough people running around with female companions in one of the variations on the 'Slave Leia' outfit gear set to have gone past being tired of the puerile exhibitionism all the way to not caring.