So, in a lot of media dealing with science fiction elements, including some Superhero stories, there's a sort of holographic or VR simulated training room built for the purposes of entertainment or teaching. In terms of a video game, I see two particularly effective uses for this concept for player use.
[b]The first[/b] is that of a training facility. In Final Fantasy 14, there's a place called the "Hall of the Novice". It's a really neat concept. You get access to it at level 15 (so just before you get access to the first dungeon in the game at level 16) and it puts you through a training course in exchange for some really nice gear for the level. For instance, for a DPS class, the training course includes the following lessons:
1. Avoid Area of Effects (basically learning the AoE tells and how to move out of them)
2. Assist Allies in Defeating a Target (Relying on tanks and healers so you as a DPS can do your job)
3. Defeat an Occupied Target (Working with the tank's targeting so you don't end up pulling aggro off him/her)
4. Avoid Engaged Targets (Learning to evade enemy AoEs while you're trying to defeat them, rather than just running around)
5. Engage Enemy Reinforcements (learning to deal with Adds coming into a battle mid-fight)
6. Interact With the Battlefield (in this example, it's a gate that constantly spawns enemies. It's basically just asking you to close the gate so your party isn't overwhelmed)
7. Final Exercise (putting it all together)
I'm sure a number of you remember dealing with similar problems in CoH that, if the players in question actually understood, they could simply work with and either play the mechanics or sidestep them entirely. Players that don't understand the way that the game works and what's expected of their role (either through inexperience or ignorance) is a serious problem in MMOs, and they bring down the enjoyment for everyone when a certain (relatively low) bar of competence isn't reached. Having something like this ingame as a teaching aid would be invaluable for players who want to learn their chosen role, and it's a nice refresher on the mechanics of this specific game for MMO veterans, allowing them to see the differences from games they've played in a structured environment they can take at their own pace.
Now, admittedly, this isn't foolproof. Without a form of incentive, the training course will go largely unused. Given the focus on costuming that CoT is going to have though, I'd say probably one of the best ways to get people to take part in the training course would be to provide a costume piece for people that complete one of the training courses. It doesn't have to be anything big, but if it's unique, people will go for it. Maybe a holographic display piece, or a zero suit (the sort of thing you wear under power armor or when getting into a VR thing). Maybe even a costume slot unlock instead. I dunno.
[b]The second[/b] big part of this is for the purposes of a testing ground. This is a concept I've taken from Warframe - in that game, you can scan enemies to add in codex entires; every enemy you have a codex entry of, you can spawn inside the "simulacrum", a Virtual Reality test area where you can fiddle with your gear loadout and build and then fight enemies as you see fit. It even lets you choose the number of enemies (up to 20 at once) and choose their level, to see how things scale up and how OP your build is. There's some things you can't spawn (most notably, bosses), but you can spawn any basic enemy you have an entry for.
I can't tell you how utterly invaluable this function is for a player and a developer both. For developers, it allows for a pre-designed testbed for things they want to put together and puts the systems in place for extensive testing of the nerfs or buffs they make to different skills, allowing them to see in advance how well they do in different situations. It's essentially a much more controlled version of beta testing, and while that can sometimes give skewed results, it'll let you tweak the numbers directly. It'll also allow people testing numbers and effects to provide much more accurate feedback on the situations the build would be effective in; does that +10% boost break anything? Even if the devs can't figure that out, the players certainly will, and they will without a doubt let the devs know, either by sending a feedback message to them directly or posting it somewhere on the forums.
There's a few [b]Side Benefits[/b] that come along with this, however, that are really worth noting. the first is that getting those codex entries, ala Warframe, creates a scavenger hunt for players that want to fill out their simulacrum's enemy list, so that they have more options for testing, and it satisfies completionist urges to see that sweet, sweet 100% of enemies codexed. You can even make sidequests and mission rewards that provide codex entries, which actually fits quite well when you're going out of your way to learn about enemies, something that takes up a not inconsiderable amount of time in superhero stories, making this both thematic and useful to players.
The second side-benefit I can think of is, if the players have access to the ability to tweak their build, slap on power modifications, and similar things, it'll give them a chance to really plan out a build, which is useful for players on a lot of levels, as they'll be able to experiment and play around in a practical environment that lets them see the effects of their theorycrafting firsthand.
Finally, if you can change the environment in the VR test area (change weather, time of day, lighting conditions, ambient particle effects, terrain, and so on) it provides a convenient place for players to test out their PC specs against the worst the game can throw at them, and it'll let the devs pinpoint any effects that are causing considerable FPS drop among a wide number of players, letting them fix them with little fanfare.
[b]All in all,[/b] if this is added to the game early and kept up to date, I could see this being an incredible boon to both the developers and community.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
Okay, this is all really good stuff, and in fact something that I do feel more games in general and MMOs in particular need.
Say an effect ignores armor. How much armor is there in this particular game? In some games that would be invaluable. In others it would be almost useless. A location like this for testing like this is the perfect thing for questions like that. The mentions of trying builds brings the training areas of Planetside 2 to mind; in those you can try various builds without having to spend your EXP, so you can make educated decisions about your EXP spending.
However, I'd really like to point out the codex entries side-benefit. Something that always bugs me about achievements is a lack of tangible reward: why bother going out of my way to get things if it doesn't help at all? This kind of thing could give lore entries, the ability to test against certain opponents, information on a enemy's details (Like the rank-and-file clockwork being weak to psychic in CoH), and a solid reason to hunt down badges. Beat a rook boss 20 times to get a badge? Okay, whatever, I'll get it eventually. Beat a rook boss 20 times to get him for testing? Huh, my control effects aren't very effective, I wonder if that's because he has a resistance or because I need to stack more control on that power...
Just... make it easier than simulacrum scanning in Warframe, please. That can be a mess.
Under Construction...
Hah, well, tab targeting should make it easier at least. Warframe being a third person shooter means that the camera controls are always a little jank when you're trying to point at something for a long period of time, like you have to do with the codex scanner.
That said, I feel that attaching the "codex entries" (or whatever other name for the lore clips is used) would be more likely to primarily come as mission rewards (possibly even random mission rewards, like newspaper missions) and achievements, since getting data from a thing for blowing it up doesn't make much sense; hitting an earth elemental with a rocket doesn't tell you much about how it's constructed or how it works. Getting it from a source that's looked into the specs of it, because you're stealing their data? Awesome.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
I sure this kind of thing has been suggested before and iirc they said they are thinking about it.
Done right it can be a really great addition to the game.
Sounds like the Powerhouse in CO (one of the handful of things I really like about that game).
You go there to train new abilities and there is a testing area where you can attack test dummies or simulated enemies. There is also an obstacle course for playing with movement powers.
You can remove any of the abilities you trained as many times as you want (this only applies to abilities newly selected since entering) for free without using a respec before you commit by exiting the Powerhouse.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
What a great idea Halae. It would give a whole new meaning to street sweeping missions. And I could see having some 'named' NPCs out there as completely random, yet rare, spawns for people to try to capture. They wouldn't have to be any more difficult to fight than any other NPCs, just more rare.
And low level stealth missions to analyze a boss, which will later prove useful when you end up facing him in a dungeon.
There are so many ways to take this.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Now i'm imaginine a low level mission where you help one of the Paragons gather intel on a villain. Sounds awesome.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
Reading the OP it sounds a little like a tutorial. That said, you could have either a SG base room that does this or a publicly accessible area for it somewhere, or maybe even make an "Advanced Tutorial" that can be rerun as much as you want.
In GW2, there is a place you can go and program up a "test your DPS on a practice dummy" run where you just attack this large golem until the timer runs out. The game gives you the usual damage numbers etc for each attack during the run in the combat channel, then at the end it prints a report of your peak DPS, average over the total time, etc I could see making it a sub game to collect different mob types that the program could give you based on your own experiences with those mobs, not unlike the unlocking of such for UGC in CoX.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Say that you level, and you're at a trainer, and then you get a prompt to zip into a pocket dimension/VR room/mindscape, and you can preview the effects or appearance of your next ability before locking it in. Would it be possible to implement it where you can check out a power in VR before you pick it? That was one of the few things that early in my CoH experience that I didn't like. Or that I didn't know what a 'respec' was yet so that if I picked a lame power, I couldn't just undo it.
That's what I thought of when I read it, and Powerhouse is one of the very few things Champions really did right.
Some of the others being their (having a) Nemesis system (though it's unfinished and would need work to be truly good) and their "Comic Series Missions" (Whiteout especially).
Honestly, there are a lot of things that Champions half-assed implemented that would be AMAZING if City of Titans did right... but I digress.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
See what Empyrean quoted Rigel as saying, between our posts.^_^
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
Whoops! Totally. I skimmed the first two sentences, which normally isn't like me. That's what I get. +1 to Rigel.
We do plan on having a test range of sorts to test out powers. As for an entire map full of spawns and such, that's rather covered by user generated content (mission designer).
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
The benefit of the 'Powerhouse' was that one could try out different power/slotting choices in a 'Danger Room' setting, before finalizing the build. It sorta took the place of Mids (Hero Builder), except it actually took 'game time' to use, and the results weren't always completely reliable.
I expect that the powers system in CoT will be considerably simpler, in basic framework, than in CO, but it would still be very useful to be able to try out builds before committing to them. I'd certainly want to be able to mess around with the Cosmetics of a new power, before locking it down!
Be Well!
Fireheart
I'll be fair here, I'm not really asking for full maps with spawns everywhere; you want that, you can do an actual mission.
The first thing I want are an advanced tutorial - the basic tutorial can cover things like movement, navigating the system menus, and similar stuff, sure, but by necessity they don't cover the trinity of roles and how they interact in well-defined situations, and I doubt they'd be long enough to really encompass what all your expected to do. That is honestly pretty important.
The second thing I want, though, is an enclosed space where you can test things on the fly against a wide variety of enemies. A one, maybe two room sort of deal where you don't have to go into a large-scale editor, or even quit out of the current 'mission' in order to spawn new enemies or reset the room. Here's a good example of what I mean - a Warframe streamer called Brozime likes to run test builds for his audience, and when it's relevant, he likes to math out the impact of the weapon he's using. [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfnqP_YRqGs]This should give you something of an example of what I'm getting at.[/url] (you can skip to 8:50 if you don't want to see all the math and stuff going into this, and instead just see the test he runs).
Maybe this is what you're already planning, or maybe it isn't, but it felt like I might need to clarify.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
Halae, let's not forget the FFXIV 'how to play your role in a party' primer that you opened with in your first post. I agree with you that they way they did that, making sure they covered all the concerns one could care about, was brilliant. And if we'll be setting the entry level for this game low, we will be getting a lot of players who should learn those basics.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
While I wouldn't have a use for the sort of 'Danger Room' described here, I can see how it would be helpful to others, so I certainly don't have any objection to the basic concept as long as its use is entirely optional (meaning nothing gained through its use that couldn't be gained in some other way as well). I would, however, be *very* cautious about any aspect of this that tries to tell players how they should play the game. If CoT is to be as much of a spiritual successor to our old game as I hope, the concept of roles will be as extremely fluid as it was in the old City, which means that any attempt to be prescriptive about this would be taking a subjective stance and claiming it's empirical. I would hate to see any sort of official legitimisation of the sort of prejudice that causes players to be criticised if they choose not to give their tank-type character a taunt power or their defender-type a heal (for example). For me, the brilliance of the old game that I hope to see reproduced in CoT is that it will be up to the player to decide how s/he wants to build and play each character.
As for the idea of collecting 'scans' of enemy types, I wouldn't mind that sort of diversion, especially if it produced badge(s).
Spurn all ye kindle.
You now, [b]Cinnder[/b], you bring up a good point. That was something I liked about CoX as well. While my non-healing defender was often kicked off parties as soon as he joined them, because they were looking for a healer, I still liked the freedom to be me.
But if you ever get around to playing FFXIV and play their "how to play in a party" training room sessions, I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Rather than telling players how to play, it tests their skills instead. Such as making sure the adds that appear Do Not Kill your healer, for instance; or how to avoid AoE attacks from one enemy while trying to take down a second. Those skills are pretty universal.
But like you say, it still does assume that certain roles will be associated with certain archetypes. And really, for the most part, they always will. A defender with healing abilities will most likely be a party's healer, so we may as well run her through some drills to train up on the kinds of healing challenges she will probably face in a party. If that healing guardian character wants to play as a party's tank instead, then we didn't really lose anything by offering that healer training did we?
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Besides, nothing says you can't just open up every training course to every archetype; it's just that one or two of them is clearly going to be better at a specific role than the others.
Take a look back at the list I laid out at the top there: of them, Avoid Area of Effects, Avoid Engaged Targets, Engage Enemy Reinforcements, and Interact with the Battlefield are all things that apply to every type of character in the game, regardless of defined role. These are also things I've been unfortunate enough to see players of every role fail to accomplish during my years of MMO gaming.
But then you get the hybrid setups. I had three "main" characters back in CoH: A Robotics/Traps Mastermind, a Demons/Fire Mastermind, and an Electric Melee/Regeneration Brute. The Robots/Traps MM was almost all damage, with a side-order of control effects. The other two though? Demons/Fire allowed me to provide highly respectable damage, while fire provided both heals and even a rez. Meanwhile, the electric regen brute was ungodly tough while dealing serious damage - he'd drain enemy endurance to the point where they couldn't beat his regeneration because they couldn't bring any decent abilities to bear after their alpha strike, making him effective as both a bruiser and a tank, though perhaps less so than actually dedicated Tankers.
With this in mind, I think we can lay out five main "roles" that CoH characters fell into, and by extrapolation, CoT characters will fall into. They are:
1. DPS. I remember Scrappers and Blasters primarily, dedicating themselves to the damage they could put out.
2. Tanks. Tankers and Brutes were the obvious ones, as they could develop aggro-drawing skills and be near impossible to kill if built right.
3. Healers. This was primarily the realm of the defender, though some MMs could do it too.
4. Support. Another Defender special, it was all about providing buffs to allies, making them work better or be harder to take down.
5. Control. The opposite of the Defender, this was, of course primarily in the hands of Dominators and Controllers. It was all about slapping on debuffs and control effects.
The interesting thing is that many of the different archetypes fell into multiple categories. Brutes were both DPS and Tanks. Peacebringer and Warshade could swap roles on the fly. Masterminds were all over the damn place depending on their primary and secondary choices.
That's the crux of the issue, I feel - we should not define our characters by slotting out archetypes into roles, but allowing hybrid characters to develop naturally. That's a very, very good thing, and i never said I wanted every archetype to fall into neat little roles. But an advanced tutorial is necessary to keep players that might not have another way to learn competence, because there's a lot of people that are going to be interested that haven't played other MMOs extensively and even in fun MMOs with a good community getting properly educated on what to do in group content can be a complete nightmare. Even when willing to learn, a lot of people hate learning when other people are watching, either because of personal pride or because they're afraid of criticism, so the advanced tutorials would be a way to develop personal skills in private.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
If there is a place where we can go in CoT to try out new powers and/or tweak our builds, I propose we name it the "Multivariate Iterational Danger Simulator" or M.I.D.S. for short.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
The problem I have with any tutorial that goes beyond explaining the mechanics of the game and strays into 'this is how you should play' territory is that the latter is entirely subjective. I get that some people have encountered players who didn't play the way they would have liked them to, but that doesn't mean they were playing incorrectly.
I think such a prescriptive tutorial would be, at best, redundant - if there are any universal 'best' tactics (which I doubt) they will become evident during play - and, at worst, restrict emergent play and promote the 'you're playing wrong' attitude that we were lucky enough to avoid for the most part in our old City.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I had some bad experiences the first time I played a real-time MMO (over 15 years ago). I had to be told what to do by the others in my group because I really didn't know any better. Simple things like don't get aggro before the tank does, or don't use AoE attacks when opponents in range are sleeped. Let me tell you, players aren't very diplomatic when it comes to things like this. In fact, players can be downright insulting and disrepectful. Their vehemence put me off group play for a very long time, actually until I came to CoH in fact.
So, on behalf of all the other MMO party virgins out there, and some of the experienced players who learned bad habits from bad mentors, I think some sort of tutorial that sets up the challenges that players and parties face goes a long way towards making group content less scary and intimidating, and gives inexperienced players more confidence to work and play with others.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I agree, though if we're talking about something like Powerhouse in Champions Online, there's no danger of that.
I just personally totally don't get kicking a Defender who doesn't heal. I ran many pickups at 4x8 without a healer and as long as everyone pulled their weight, we were fine and had a ball.
I always played a solo tank or a tanky brute, so if there wasn't a healer, I just went to pure AOE and otherwise upped my general aggro-management game and we were fine.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
My point is that those are not empirical mistakes, but subjective ones. If the team doesn't want a player to do those things, they're free to say so, but if the player likes to play that way, there's nothing inherently wrong in that. It's not an issue of learning to play 'correctly'; it's a teaming incompatibility.
There is no 'correct' way to play. Attempting to teach one's preferred method is just stifling others' freedom.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Again, agreed. And from what I've read i think the Devs agree with you too. So probably not much danger of this subjective mistake being ingrained in or supported by the game itself--though of course players, as always, will do as they will.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Yes, but showing a player the consequences of their actions in a friendly experimental forum allows them to make informed conscious decisions about how they want to play when they are in a group and their play affects the the success and enjoyment of others.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
If I remember the Powerhouse correctly as just a place to try out your powers, then I'm totally with you. It's the FFXIV-style 'you should play this way' tutorial to which I object.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Things like "target the tank, and all of your attacks will be forwarded to the tank's target" are helpful to at least be aware of, and not obvious to the beginner. I mean you'd want to show people that such features exist, and I think a tutorial that shows that stuff is a good thing. You also want the tutorial to give them a badge so that you can say "You just earned your very first Badge! Click HERE to read about badges and how they work". Not that everyone has to be a badge hunter, just to let them know it's there and show them how it works by having them get at least one hands-on experience with it, just to get their feet wet. In GW2 there is a feature that allows a person to highlight a specific monster and put a red crosshairs symbol over its head. Everyone on the same team can then press "T" to target that monster. I don't know how to do this, personally, because I never looked it up in the wiki, I don't know what it's called, and it wasn't in the tutorial. If you;re going to have helpful stuiff like that, it help to give it a catchy name and put it in the tutorial, I feel.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I found out the hard way in another thread I started awhile back that whenever you start mentioning competency or skills testing you meet with a lot of resistance from portions of the community; including some devs. I got an earful about how in the old game a "Defender" could "tank" and epic AT could do anything... especially given some of the more exotic builds/buffs. The old game was designed so that in an eight person team, a single player could often do anything (including absolutely nothing such as pad) and it was very possible to be successful. I didn't find that to be a particularly great game attribute. But I given an education on how the value mixed AT teaming overrode any need to have measures of individual skills. Something to consider whenever this subject comes up.
I definitely take your point about having a safe space to experiment. But when the primary consequence is based on the reaction of one's teammates, can anything other than teaming give an accurate picture of this? Each team will have its own preferences. I don't think a tutorial can (or should) attempt to teach social skills.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I see the tutorial as a way to at least make players aware of what's there and what can be done, whether or not you actually do any of it is up to you, the player.
In Wing Commander, there was a tutorial that taught you how to do what they called a "Kick Stop" whereby you'd hit the brakes, turn, and shoot at the Kilrathi guy that was tailing you as his ship (which didn't have the best brakes) would go sailing by yours. I didn't do that very much in that game, but I knew it was there, which is nice.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I think you may be misunderstanding a point there. the idea isn't to force you into a certain gameplay style, it's to show you what's required so you can form a style around that.
Going back to the DPS tests I wrote in the OP, the Avoid Engaged Targets test is interesting in particular because it can be handled in a surprising number of ways unique to the classes you bring into the test. a rogue (melee DPS) will move up and try to stay on the target's flank, as will a pugilist (same archetype as the rogue). A thaumaturge (basically a blaster with cast times) on the other hand? They're doing a 'stick and move' thing; they don't want to move much because their cast times require them to stand still as much as possible and let them play a turret. On the other hand, an archer (Blaster without cast times) has instant-cast ranged attacks, meaning they can stay on the move while still belting out damage even from a distance. An Arcanist (mastermind/blaster with one pet) can summon a pet that'll tank hits for them, letting them completely avoid the necessity of evading enemy AoEs.
Four ways to handle it right there, and outside of the thaumaturge it lets you handle the avoidance and damage in a way that pleases you however you want to address it. The idea is about discovering what works for your playstyle while still achieving the low bar of competence that's required to, frankly, have fun in a game like this.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
My point is that there is no empirical need to avoid engaged targets (or any of the other items on the original list.) If people want to do these things, they'll figure them out in time. If they don't, that's ok too. MWM shouldn't be telling folks these are things they need to do.
Spurn all ye kindle.
It looks to me like you are responding to each of my arguments as if they were meant to stand alone. That last post you quote was but one of many reasons. Look at all the arguments put forward for it in toto, not just mine, but the others' as well.
This reminds me of the blind men trying to describe the elephant:
if you were to look at each observation individually, the result is of course that they have it all wrong. But when you put all the observations together can it be anything other than an elephant?
Likewise, each of our arguments is overturned by you as not a good justification for a tutorial. But when you put all the arguments together, how can you reach any conclusion other than that a tutorial would be beneficial?
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Frankly Cinnder, I disagree. In fact, I disagree strongly, as any one of these things is kind of essential to not getting yelled at by teammates as Huckleberry and I have experienced in the past. Providing learning tools that are not actually required to be done only helps people. If I didn't have someone willing to sit down and explain things to me in CoH, which by the way is a rarity, I wouldn't have lasted as long as I have in gaming in the first place. Players can learn at their own pace as they wish - the advanced tutorials are meant to be entirely optional - but denying the utility of them to the people who want/need them is just asinine.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
Sorry, didn't mean to come across as looking at the elephant too closely. Not to go too Matrix on the thread, but the point I'm trying to make is that there is no elephant. :-)
I'm fully in favour of a tutorial that explains the mechanics of the game, but I object to one that teaches the 'right way' to play, because there is no right way. Any such advanced tutorial as discussed here is based on the false premise that there are certain things one 'must' do when playing. You might encounter teams that insist their way is The Way, but I think those folks are best avoided. Either way, it's a community issue, not one for the developers.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I think you're still misunderstanding the point.
These tutorials aren't meant as a way to tell veterans how to play the game - they're not to tell anyone how to play the game. That'd just be foolish and rude, and it seems to be what you're assuming.
Instead, these are meant as optional ways to inform low-end users that actually need the help of the sorts of things they'll be facing in the wider world, and gives them a private venue to develop their own strategies for beating those challenges, with helpful tips on the ways they can do so.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
I always thought that operational and 'social' training in a game should either come from immersion, or a player-made video, and not as an injunction from the god-like Devs.
My experience with the CoH Community has been that they are generally quite accepting and lenient towards newbies. However, I do recognize that there were elitist individuals who would ruin a person's day for not playing as expected. I felt sorry for any new-player who fell into that trap. The real lesson to be learned was that one could be completely successful at CoH and play it any way that worked.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I think a properly-made advanced tutorial would not necessarily cause any kind of pigeonholing; it would instead provide a basic explanation of certain aspects of combat. And while the idea of operational training coming from players is fine, it's also unreliable. However, in any case some kind of reliable guide to any advanced aspect of combat is going to be needed. The detail about 'target an ally to attack what they're targeting' is not common, and will come as a surprise if it isn't explained.
How or whether they're tuned to communicate basic combat roles aside, communicating the fine details of your combat and control system is important. For instance? If you crouch and then jump in Warframe, you do a special jump. If it tells you about this somewhere in the game, I don't know where. I learned about it when talking to a friend about the game's parkour. Nor do I know whether it explains channeling, gliding, or how your mastery rank interacts with your mod capacity, none of which I found out on my own. For that matter, I've played some Champions Online, and I had NO idea there was a power house for testing. This kind of information is important for a player, even a casual one, getting the most out of a game.
Yes, I have now found these things out, but I did so from the internet, not the games involved. Does it work? Slightly, and only after it would have been good to know, and often after making a fool of myself by saying 'Wait, you can what?' or 'wow, is that a warframe power or a mod?'. And it's aggravating to have to go outside the game to find out about something that's basic and important to know!
On that note, there's a testing place in CO? Man, I wish I had known that ten levels ago...
Under Construction...
I forgot. Now you can level up anywhere you want. In the beginning, we were forced to go to the powerhouse to train and the testing area had a sign leading to it.
Whether we have optional advanced tutorials or not, I hope our tutorial gets updated when there's a major update to the game which might affect a new player's experience.
This sort of reminds me of Redlynne's story about (I think) Tabula Rasa where late in the game melee weapons were added as an option in the tutorial and when you selected Brass Knuckles, the tutorial still told you you had to reload and aim them.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
Brass Knuckles were a veteran reward, and they were put in your inventory after character creation. They should have been awarded after you got to the main game. And I still crack up thinking about that. Poor CuppaJo fell over laughing.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]