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Shields!

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The Fighting Ca...
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Shields!

Hi guys, so my main from COH wields a shield.

Boy was I happy when this power set came through.

Champions Online still doesn't have a shield power set.

DC Universe Online has a pretty cool Shield set that allows for combat with the shield, unlike COH where it was a costume piece with mainly buff powers.

I was wondering if you guys could PLEASE spend a bit of time with the power, and give shields some love.

Whether it's a character like FC here, or a knight with a sword and shield, shields are a fun unique set that as wither a buff or weapon, are very stylish.

I would love to have a shield set with perhaps a buff or two, but mainly used as a weapon like in DCUO.

Thanks so much for letting me potentially see my character once more!!

P.S. Maple Leaf emblem.....DCUO does NOT have the simple emblem..but CO does....let's make sure CoT does!! :)

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I totally agree that CoT

I totally agree that CoT needs shields. However, as much as having a shield used for combat would be cool (Captain America!), let's not forget those who use shields as, well, a shield. One of my favorite characters was a Shield/War Mace tanker. While she did use her shield offensively for the occasional shield-bash, its main purpose was defensive, protecting her and her teammates while the war hammer in her other hand handled the majority of the smiting of foes.

So perhaps two shield powersets, one mostly offensive with some defensive capability (Captain America/Fighting Canadian) and one which is mostly defensive with a few offensive options like Shield Bash or a shield charge. That way we both get to see our characters shine again.

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Mendicant wrote:
Mendicant wrote:

I totally agree that CoT needs shields. However, as much as having a shield used for combat would be cool (Captain America!), let's not forget those who use shields as, well, a shield. One of my favorite characters was a Shield/War Mace tanker. While she did use her shield offensively for the occasional shield-bash, its main purpose was defensive, protecting her and her teammates while the war hammer in her other hand handled the majority of the smiting of foes.
So perhaps two shield powersets, one mostly offensive with some defensive capability (Captain America/Fighting Canadian) and one which is mostly defensive with a few offensive options like Shield Bash or a shield charge. That way we both get to see our characters shine again.

I'm all for a hybrid powerset. Definitely!! Buffs and Bashes!!

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Well, looking at the current

Well, looking at the current power design theory of CoT, we should be able to get the shield both ways. If the shield is the animation it should be able to be applied to (in theory) several base/theme combinations both for melee damage and defense.

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Shields are critical in

Shields are critical in keeping the puppies alive...the world over!

Now will we have them right at launch? Not sure.

I can see CoT launching with one res (e.g., electric), one def (reflexes) and one hybrid set (WP). My shield pessimism stems from the idea (based upon no practical development experience at all) that reflexes and electric's "animation & integration" is easier than shield "animation & integration"...especially, if they envision the player being able to manipulate his/her shield (i.e., throw and expand its size) and/or use similar animations for the shield melee powerset that they definitely know they won't go-live due to its labor intensity.

((Note - Everything after "especially" is pure speculation.))

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I would love to have melee

I would love to have melee animations for all the weapons users. I think bows and shields have been specifically mentioned. I know I would like to see it.

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yes... 2 shield power sets...

yes... 2 shield power sets...

allow me to equip 2 shields as well.. My hero "The wall" will finally be born that way!

I have always wanted to play an MMO that let me use 2 shields. Or at least reskin a mace to be a shield.

Supporting how I can, Starting up a DA group for art, stories, and concepts to be collected
http://city-of-titans.deviantart.com/
Please join up if you plan to make or collect CoT related art.

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4 years later and I still

4 years later and I still want to ensure a shield power set is on the table ;-)

Nice to see the progress moving along, and that this whole CoT wasn't just a flash in the pan!!

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More than likely there won't

More than likely there won't be a shield power set. There may be a shield combat set of aesthetics though. Hopefully with both ranged and melee animations for Shield hitting or throwing.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

More than likely there won't be a shield power set. There may be a shield combat set of aesthetics though. Hopefully with both ranged and melee animations for Shield hitting or throwing.

I would be fine if it was simply cosmetic. It is simple enough but the way DC Universe Online handled their Shield was quite fun. It was simply a melee weapon.

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Does it add any defense

Does it add any defense bonuses though?

A shield that doesn't defend, seems like a terrible shield. :/

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I had a friend who played a

I had a friend who played a shield user in DCUO and they had a lot of fun with it too. Mostly it'll be an aesthetic as they don't want to lock any powersets into being only one specific thing. Atrophic blast for example could potentially be skinned as fire, acid, electricity, magic, bullets, or pretty much anything and it'd work for it, as it's a damage over time set.

Maybe taking what you liked about previous shield combat styles in games and asking for something mechanically similar would be more beneficial for this endeavor. (If none of the other sets already cover this for you.) Tactical combat, fighting prowess, and kinetic melee all seem like they'll be fun and would easily fit a shield combat style. Super strength and massive melee would also still work but I feel for those it'd depend more on the shield wielder than the others. (Though some strong shield slams to knock foes around would work as an animation for super strength, and if we could have one where we hurl the shield around the character for massive melee would be great too)

Oh, man. What would also be great would be if our characters could carry their (hopefully custom) shields around on their backs. That'd be sweet.

Edit: made a couple of small edits

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I think that there will have

I think that there will have to be animation sets associated with the props we give our characters. It only makes sense that the animations associated with a bow & arrow are different than the animations for a pair of daggers, the animations for a shield and the animations for a wrist blaster; even for the same powerset and abilities.

Then, when we customize our abilities, the animations associated with the props we have will be among the possible animations we get to choose.


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Shields would be a prop, not

Shields would be a prop, not an actual set.
When a prop is added, the list of allowable animations is provided.


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Two words: Captain Amerikatt!

Two words: Captain Amerikatt!

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When captain Amerikatt throws

When captain Amerikatt throws her mighty shield! All those who chose to oppose her shield must yield!

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Amerikatt reflected the

Captain Amerikatt reflected the concussion beam right back at the giant robot with her handy cat flap. "Take a cat flap nap, Claptrap!"

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Airhead wrote:
Airhead wrote:

Captain Amerikatt reflected the concussion beam right back at the giant robot with her handy cat flap. "Take a cat flap nap, Claptrap!"

Claptrap!? Oh no!

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Lol

Lol

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Shields would be a prop, not an actual set.
When a prop is added, the list of allowable animations is provided.

Does that mean will see dedicated blocking by the shield prop? Will animations match up to misses, deflections and full on blocks?

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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I wouldn't expect a shield

I wouldn't expect a shield animation unless the powerset comes with an active 'Block'. Unless... there might be a power in the attack-set which could be channeled to the shield prop? Throw the shield, or just hold it up, so it glows briefly and releases a beam or big cone-blast.

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I'll put my name down for

I'll put my name down for "sheilds for defense AND offense animations"

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SavageFist wrote:
SavageFist wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Shields would be a prop, not an actual set.
When a prop is added, the list of allowable animations is provided.
Does that mean will see dedicated blocking by the shield prop? Will animations match up to misses, deflections and full on blocks?

Probably not. We can do that in an isolated environment. It won’t work in larger scale combat with a wide range of customized powers .


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

SavageFist wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Shields would be a prop, not an actual set.
When a prop is added, the list of allowable animations is provided.
Does that mean will see dedicated blocking by the shield prop? Will animations match up to misses, deflections and full on blocks?
Probably not. We can do that in an isolated environment. It won’t work in larger scale combat with a wide range of customized powers .

So unless it's an active attack/animation, we won't see any shield blocking?

I mean, I get it, but ouch that hurts. I hope at least some defensive sets can utilize that kind of animation with activation-based abilities.

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I mean CoH was no better at

I mean CoH was no better at sheilds. It's just not the kind of game that tracks particles and moves your shield for you.

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I actually had a response

I actually had a response written where I was going to say that enough MMOs have done shield blocking that it should be an academic exercise by now. But when I tried to validate that statement with some online footage, I realized just how false it is. Every game that I know of that lets you carry a shield doesn't actually show you using the shield to block. Weird. There are some games that actually have "BLOCK" as an ability when you have a shield equipped, but that is a player-activated ability animation and that isn't what we're talking about here, right?

What we are talking about here is the game running an animation sequence that shows the character using a shield in a blocking posture of some sort upon taking a hit. So i went through a bunch of footage and all the games that I reviewed just had the character stutter a little when hit, regardless of whether a shield was equipped or not. And that just the games that even do anything when you get hit. A lot of games throw an impact sound at you but don't animate the impact at all.

So much for it being an academic exercise.

But now that I think about it, I think it would be just too difficult to animate a shield block attempt without taking control of your character from you. I'm not saying it would be impossible, but they would have to run animation sequences on each arm separately and then try to reconcile each arm's animation with the rest of the body in such a way to make it look like you aren't constantly dislocating your shoulders.

I think the best we can hope for is that they give us a stance for when we have a shield equipped as a prop so it looks like we are always using it defensively whether we are getting hit or not. And then the only time it would come out of the defensive posture is when we have included it in some form of active ability. The best example for this that I can think of is actually in our sister game: DCUO:

... okay sister game would be wrong, because that would imply the same generation.. its more like an Aunt game.


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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I mean CoH was no better at sheilds. It's just not the kind of game that tracks particles and moves your shield for you.

I hate to be Lothic here:

City of Heroes came out in '04, Shield Defense was added in '08. Even going by just Shield's addition, that was developed almost a decade ago. City of Titans is a new game.

That being said I completely understand that MWM needs to draw lines considering ROI.

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That is odd, as TOR will show

That is odd, as TOR will show a force user blocking with their saber. :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

That is odd, as TOR will show a force user blocking with their saber. :p

That's a really good point. In SWTOR they have Block Parry and Dodge mechanics. So when you successfully parry an attack while armed with a lightsaber you actually animate the parry. I wonder of CoT will have block and parry? If so, then why not animate the shield the same way SWTOR goes about animating lightsabers?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

desviper wrote:
I mean CoH was no better at sheilds. It's just not the kind of game that tracks particles and moves your shield for you.
I hate to be Lothic here:
City of Heroes came out in '04, Shield Defense was added in '08. Even going by just Shield's addition, that was developed almost a decade ago. City of Titans is a new game.
That being said I completely understand that MWM needs to draw lines considering ROI.

That is SO Lothic :p So optimistic. Point being, if we want a game like CoH, passive shields are acceptable.

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Just remembered Ascendants

Just remembered Ascendants had this animation:

But even I if could look akin to this:

I'll be happy with Shields.

(I'm just one player, though!)

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Brand X wrote:
That is odd, as TOR will show a force user blocking with their saber. :p
That's a really good point. In SWTOR they have Block Parry and Dodge mechanics. So when you successfully parry an attack while armed with a lightsaber you actually animate the parry. I wonder of CoT will have block and parry? If so, then why not animate the shield the same way SWTOR goes about animating lightsabers?

Those animations are queued when not attacking. Well, the deflect anims work with lightsabers while attacking. Goodnplayers can time atacking anims to these passive-play anims for good looking game play (useful for a fun looking video).

The difference here is Stwor is working with very specific animation sequences. While we will have a high degree of player-customized animations. Something no other game will offer in depth we’re providing.

This topic was covered in this post on our Animation Blending update.

As I said, possible in a controlled environment. Not so much once we allow the high degree of customized animations. However, Epic is still working on this system. We are also still working on the animation engine which will allow all this wonderful customization.

Down the road into the future, who knows, it may be possible to add some form of automated-response driven animations blended with all the customization options. But that would take alot of work. The ones we used in the video were specifically selected and made.


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I wasn't worried about CoT.

I wasn't worried about CoT. I only thought it odd that other games, such as a medieval setting game, couldn't do it, when sword and shield are such a big thing, but TOR the lightsaber game could. :)

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
SavageFist wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Shields would be a prop, not an actual set.
When a prop is added, the list of allowable animations is provided.
Does that mean will see dedicated blocking by the shield prop? Will animations match up to misses, deflections and full on blocks?

Probably not. We can do that in an isolated environment. It won’t work in larger scale combat with a wide range of customized powers .

So is this confirmation that shields will be in at least in an aesthetic role?

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The Fighting Canadian wrote:
The Fighting Canadian wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
SavageFist wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Shields would be a prop, not an actual set.
When a prop is added, the list of allowable animations is provided.
Does that mean will see dedicated blocking by the shield prop? Will animations match up to misses, deflections and full on blocks?

Probably not. We can do that in an isolated environment. It won’t work in larger scale combat with a wide range of customized powers .

So is this confirmation that shields will be in at least in an aesthetic role?

I'm certain of it since it's too much of a staple in superhero lore to leave out.

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The Fighting Canadian wrote:
The Fighting Canadian wrote:

So is this confirmation that shields will be in at least in an aesthetic role?

Short of a guarantee, it's very nearly guaranteed that Shields will be in the game as PROPS that you can put onto your character as a piece of their costume. What CANNOT be guaranteed is that the avatar will animate USE of that shield to block/intercept incoming attacks, simply because the variables involved for the vectors of those incoming attacks are going to have such ... wide ... parameters. So animating what looks like an "intercept" of an incoming attack with a Shield (to make it "look right") is almost certainly off the table for game launch.

MeSoSollyWan wrote:

Just remembered Ascendants had this animation:

When the Ascendants did that animation, they turned into Immunity Bricks. No movement. No actions. No damage taken. Orientation didn't even matter. You could attack them from behind while they stood there, rooted, in that pose and it just didn't matter. Nothing you did could harm them when they deployed their Shield in the manner shown. It basically took them out of the combat for a short time, in which all effort expended against them was wasted.

Such a functionality has a lot in common with the usual "phasing" mechanics of becoming invulnerable/immune to damage, except with the added detriment of being unable to move or take any (other) actions. Such an effect might be more properly termed a "Shield Wall" where the purpose is TOTAL PROTECTION at the expense of all other options.


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Perhaps the shield block

Perhaps the shield block animation could just be tied to an evade trigger. So say everytime your character fully evades an attack through the computations, it then triggers your characters block animation.

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That "works" if you ignore

That "works" if you ignore discrepancies between avatar models, particularly in the sizing, in terms of appearances.

Assume for a moment that you've got a 10ft tall and a 4ft tall avatar fighting each other ... just for the sake of illustration and argument. If you scale everything 1:1 in both directions, if the 10ft tall avatar pulls out a pistol and shoots it straight ahead (classic 3 point stance assumed) then obviously the shot is going to sail WAY OVER the 4ft tall avatar's head (whose head doesn't even rise to crotch level on the 10ft avatar). So if the 4ft avatar triggers a "block" animation on an unsuccessful attack, it will look like the 10ft avatar is shooting the air "over" the 4ft avatar, while the 4ft avatar is "shield bashing" the 10ft avatar in the shins.

And that's before we even get into things like Giant Monsters and Giant Robots and all kinds of stuff that's going to be WAY bigger than merely 10ft tall.

Shields are great when you can make certain assumptions by default ... like having everyone be the same height (or at least relatively close to the same height) ... rather than needing to deal with wildly divergent assumptions. It's kind of like how certain styles of martial arts, particularly the pressure points/vitals/grappling styles, are often optimized for HUMAN targets, rather than for fighting non-humans. A lot of martial arts "moves" just simply aren't going to work on other species ... like cougars or crocodiles ... simply because the distribution of weight, balance and pressure/leverage points on other animals are very different from those on a human. Likewise, most of the terrestrial martial arts styles that we're familiar with are predicated upon working in an environment where there's gravity to connect you with the ground to gain the advantages of (ground) friction for energy transfer (chaining) from the feet to the rest of the body. Switch to a zero G environment and a LOT of martial arts moves don't "work" anymore (and many of them wind up being counterproductive thanks to the action-reaction forces involved).

It's that understanding of the environment that you're working IN which then become the deciding factor for how stuff like this ought to "play" within the game. If the range of body sizes among opponents in a combat game is relatively confined, say to "human-ish" sized proportions and shapes only, then you can eliminate a lot of the uncertainty involved and start taking some shortcuts that won't have really nasty edge cases where the extreme ends of matchups don't fall too far out of whack with each other. But when you know going in that you've got everything from child-like body proportions all the way up to Attack Of The 50ft Woman levels of Giant Monster ... the sheer range of possibilities becomes prohibitive in terms of keeping everything sorted. Not saying it can't be done ... because it CAN, with enough Time, Tools and Tech Manuals ... but I am saying that doing that won't come "cheap" in terms of developer resources (and I include "sanity" among those precious resources).

It's like Fezzik said in the Princess Bride. You use different moves when fighting different opponents (groups versus singles). Whatever MWM does in this regard, they're going to have to account for ALL possibilities, and when the range of possibilities gets "too large" then the range of outcomes they need to account for becomes somewhat prohibitive.


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I would love to be able to

I would love to be able to strap a shield on my back like Captain America

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Would be nice to have costume

Would be nice to have costume options that are linked to props. Or at least ones that switch off for combat. So you can have shield on your back when not in combat but in combat it's strapped to the arm.

It'd end up being like a combat aura but in reverse.

But I hope if we can have things like shields and weapons and such on our costumes they look like the props we can use. Which would probably take less modeling work. It's weird when we can have a gun in a holster that looks nothing like any gun our characters actually use in the game.

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Holding a gun on the back ?,

Holding a gun on the back of the belt ?, that's possible ^^ (look at 0:42 ^^) so put a shield on the back should be possible