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Shazam discussion thread

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Shazam discussion thread

Why has nobody made this yet!! This movie is awesome and nobody's talking about it!!

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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We talked about it on the

We talked about it on the discord channel. ^_^

BrandX said it was the better Captain Marvel movie this year, and I agreed. Not that I didn't like the Captain Marvel movie that was actually titled Captain Marvel, but the one titled "Shazam!" was, in my opinion, a better movie overall.

They went with the "New 52" origin for Shazam, Dr. Sivana, and [spoiler deleted], as well as going with "Shazam" as the hero's nom de la cape. Other Shazam! related villains were mentioned and/or introduced. There were many inside jokes for the hard-core Shazam!/Captain Marvel fans.

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ah...

ah...

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Based on the previews this

Based on the previews this movie looks like an attempt to be a sort of slightly more kid-friendly, non-R-rated, DC equivalent of Deadpool at least from the point of view of having characters with a bunch of meta/inside jokes "winking" at the audience about a self-aware kid becoming an unexpected superpowered "hero". Is that basically what it's trying to be - a DC answer to Deadpool?

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I have no idea how they

I have no idea how they reached that conclusion. The characters aren't breaking the fourth wall. I'm not sure what they mean by "self-aware", since the way I use it would apply to any sapient being and would therefore apply to any hero, kid, villain, just about any character in any story ever. And the references I referred to are not from characters, except for their names in some cases, they're from the background. Like the school name, "Fawcett", which we see on the wall of the lunch room, is a reference to the original publishers of Captain Marvel.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Based on the previews this movie looks like an attempt to be a sort of slightly more kid-friendly, non-R-rated, DC equivalent of Deadpool at least from the point of view of having characters with a bunch of meta/inside jokes "winking" at the audience about a self-aware kid becoming an unexpected superpowered "hero". Is that basically what it's trying to be - a DC answer to Deadpool?

Not self aware. Freddy just knows the tropes. He's basically a superhero fanboy.

John Glover showing up in the film was a nice surprise for me. :) There are other surprises I wasn't expecting and I was all "OMG! I didn't think they'd do THAT!"

I liked Captain Marvel enough to see it twice, so saying that, I felt Brie's acting was a bit bland. Like she was phoning it in, not wanting to be there. I didn't feel that way with the Shazam cast.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

I have no idea how they reached that conclusion. The characters aren't breaking the fourth wall. I'm not sure what they mean by "self-aware", since the way I use it would apply to any sapient being and would therefore apply to any hero, kid, villain, just about any character in any story ever. And the references I referred to are not from characters, except for their names in some cases, they're from the background. Like the school name, "Fawcett", which we see on the wall of the lunch room, is a reference to the original publishers of Captain Marvel.

I'm using the term "self-aware" in the context that the characters of Shazam! seem to basically "know" they are in a "not quite real life" comic-book situation and are reacting to things in a self-winking acknowledgement for the sake of the audience. The trailers for Shazam! basically make the movie look like a sort of comedy-oriented fan-service fan-fic for comic book nerd-types (at least more than the "average" superhero movie at any rate).

Again in a nutshell it looks like they were trying to go for a DC version of Deadpool and was wondering if that's what it turned out to be.

EDIT - Brand X jumped in with a post before I finished this one and basically answered my question more or less.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

I have no idea how they reached that conclusion. The characters aren't breaking the fourth wall. I'm not sure what they mean by "self-aware", since the way I use it would apply to any sapient being and would therefore apply to any hero, kid, villain, just about any character in any story ever. And the references I referred to are not from characters, except for their names in some cases, they're from the background. Like the school name, "Fawcett", which we see on the wall of the lunch room, is a reference to the original publishers of Captain Marvel.

Isn't Shazam based out of Fawcett City? Like Batman's Gotham and Supes' Metropolis.

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In the movie, he's in

In the movie, he's in Philadelphia. And if there's a Fawcett City in the comics, it's likely that's also a nod to the publishers.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

In the movie, he's in Philadelphia. And if there's a Fawcett City in the comics, it's likely that's also a nod to the publishers.

Yeah, Fawcett City, Indiana. Just looked it up.

It's weird that they 1, put him in a real city, and 2, a different state.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Foradain wrote:

In the movie, he's in Philadelphia. And if there's a Fawcett City in the comics, it's likely that's also a nod to the publishers.

Yeah, Fawcett City, Indiana. Just looked it up.

It's weird that they 1, put him in a real city, and 2, a different state.

Eh, basing this movie in a large, real life city most people have heard of probably gave the movie an extra element of "realness" people could relate to. Also you have to remember this character is likely not as well know as say Batman or Spider-Man so they probably figured they could get away with moving him without too much "nerd-rage" controversy.

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DC has always lost points for

DC has always lost points for taking place in fictional metropoli.


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You know, I do hate that

You know, I do hate that Metropolis has been able to be moved. Seems it's either near New York or somewhere in Kansas.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

You know, I do hate that Metropolis has been able to be moved. Seems it's either near New York or somewhere in Kansas.

Metropolis is across the bay from Gotham. It's nowhere near Kansas. Are you getting it confused with Smallville?

"Metropolis is depicted as a prosperous and massive city in the Northeastern United States, within close proximity to Gotham City."

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In the TV series "Smallville"

In the TV series "Smallville", Metropolis was visible from certain water towers in Smallville.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

In the TV series "Smallville", Metropolis was visible from certain water towers in Smallville.

What, really? That's real dumb.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Foradain wrote:

In the TV series "Smallville", Metropolis was visible from certain water towers in Smallville.

What, really? That's real dumb.

I've always liked the "version" of DC canon that describes Gotham as basically analogous to New York City and Metropolis as analogous to Chicago. It seems that the Smallville show must have decided to use that same basic idea.

The idea that Gotham and Metropolis are right next to each other always seemed like the "dumb" way to have it to me. *shrugs*

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Foradain wrote:

In the TV series "Smallville", Metropolis was visible from certain water towers in Smallville.

What, really? That's real dumb.

Yup. In the show "Smallville", Smallville was just 100 miles away from Metropolis and located in Kansas, which if I recall was still near Gotham.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Foradain wrote:

In the TV series "Smallville", Metropolis was visible from certain water towers in Smallville.

What, really? That's real dumb.

I've always liked the "version" of DC canon that describes Gotham as basically analogous to New York City and Metropolis as analogous to Chicago. It seems that the Smallville show must have decided to use that same basic idea.

The idea that Gotham and Metropolis are right next to each other always seemed like the "dumb" way to have it to me. *shrugs*

Yeah, it makes the DC universe seem really small.


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Foradain wrote:

In the TV series "Smallville", Metropolis was visible from certain water towers in Smallville.

What, really? That's real dumb.

I've always liked the "version" of DC canon that describes Gotham as basically analogous to New York City and Metropolis as analogous to Chicago. It seems that the Smallville show must have decided to use that same basic idea.

The idea that Gotham and Metropolis are right next to each other always seemed like the "dumb" way to have it to me. *shrugs*

I thought Metropolis was essentially New York and Gotham Chicago.

"Locations used as inspiration or filming locations for Gotham City in the live-action Batman films and television series have included Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, New Jersey, and New York City."

I guess it's both or any.

If I ever make a superhero property set in the US, I'll just name the city Any City, USA.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Foradain wrote:

In the TV series "Smallville", Metropolis was visible from certain water towers in Smallville.

What, really? That's real dumb.

I've always liked the "version" of DC canon that describes Gotham as basically analogous to New York City and Metropolis as analogous to Chicago. It seems that the Smallville show must have decided to use that same basic idea.

The idea that Gotham and Metropolis are right next to each other always seemed like the "dumb" way to have it to me. *shrugs*

I thought Metropolis was essentially New York and Gotham Chicago.

"Locations used as inspiration or filming locations for Gotham City in the live-action Batman films and television series have included Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, New Jersey, and New York City."

I guess it's both or any.

If I ever make a superhero property set in the US, I'll just name the city Any City, USA.

Except that "Gotham" was always traditionally a pseudonym directly related to New York City and made "mainstream famous" by the Batman comics. As far as Metropolis goes that always seemed like it would have been the nearest "big city" to Smallville which would make Chicago the most logical candidate of the Mid-West.

Turns out there was actually some method to the madness behind these conclusions. ;)

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I always thought Gotham was

I always thought Gotham was supposed to be Detroit.

However, I believe I read somewhere, that Gotham was New York at Night and Metropolis was New York in the day.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I always thought Gotham was supposed to be Detroit.

However, I believe I read somewhere, that Gotham was New York at Night and Metropolis was New York in the day.

I think part of the confusion is that Hollyweird picks all sorts of different real life cities to make movies and TV shows even if those places aren't technically the cities those stories are supposed to be "set" in. It probably doesn't help that different comic book writers over the decades have probably said different things about which cities they think their stories are set in as well.

Bottom line all I can say for certain is that historically speaking "Gotham" is another name for New York City. That's based on Washington Irving calling it that a couple of hundred years ago. I'm less certain about Metropolis because I don't think that term has a specific "history" that's related to a specific real life city (unless you want to count some of the super-old Greek references).

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Gotham is also a name for a

Gotham is also a name for a legendary village, and "a [place] whose inhabitants are known for their folly" is Gotham City through and through.

"'Gotham' as a term for New York City was coined by Washington Irving in an 1807 November issue of his literary magazine, Salmagundi, based on the legends of the English village of Gotham, whose inhabitants are known for their folly."

But really Gotham City is any city anyone views as corrupt, it's less a physical place and more an atmosphere or mood.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Gotham is also a name for a legendary village, and "a [place] whose inhabitants are known for their folly" is Gotham City through and through.

"'Gotham' as a term for New York City was coined by Washington Irving in an 1807 November issue of his literary magazine, Salmagundi, based on the legends of the English village of Gotham, whose inhabitants are known for their folly."

But really Gotham City is any city anyone views as corrupt, it's less a physical place and more an atmosphere or mood.

Yes I was the one that linked to the wiki in the first place. ;)

Sure I suppose you could stretch the modern use of the term Gotham to apply as a vague description for any random place that has a certain tragic atmosphere/mood. That's probably why that name worked well enough for the Batman lore.

I'm just pointing out that historically speaking when it was "specifically equated" to an actual real life city by Washington Irving that real life city was New York City, not Detroit, Chicago or anywhere else.

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Yeah, I get what you're

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but just because the name had been used that way before doesn't automatically mean that Gotham City has to be based on New York. To get any real confirmation we'd need some sort of admission by the creators, for all we know they could have just heard the name before and liked the sound/imagry it conveyed.

And I wasn't talking of the term Gotham, but moreso that Gotham City can be analogous of any city someone views as corrupt. Same as people can read their own struggles into the plights of fictional characters.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but just because the name had been used that way before doesn't automatically mean that Gotham City has to be based on New York. To get any real confirmation we'd need some sort of admission by the creators, for all we know they could have just heard the name before and liked the sound/imagry it conveyed.

And I wasn't talking of the term Gotham, but moreso that Gotham City can be analogous of any city someone views as corrupt. Same as people can read their own struggles into the plights of fictional characters.

It actually doesn't really matter what the DC creators might think about this issue. The term "gotham" is just about as inseparable from New York City as you can get in popular culture beyond its more modern use in Batman canon. I'd easily bet if you asked any number of people what real life city is most closely associated to the word "gotham" a majority would say New York City. I've lived on this dust ball we call planet Earth for nearly 50 years and I have honestly never heard anyone use the term "gotham" in a generic fashion that did not imply a connection (fictional or otherwise) to New York City.

Look, I've tried to give you a little bit of wiggle room on this by allowing for the vague possibility that someone might, just might, try to use "gotham" as some kind of generic adjective for "any town saddled with corruption" (the way Washington Irving originally used it) but trust me if anyone did actually try to use it in that manner today I would absolutely promise you that almost no one would ever guess that's the context you were trying to use it in. It's like you'd be trying to use an average phrase from Chaucer in some kind of context the average person living in 2019 would ever understand - it's simply not very likely in the least.

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Not saying the term "Gotham"

Not saying the term "Gotham" can be used for any city with corruption.

But that "Gotham City" (The Fictional place) can be an allegory for any corrupt city, or even one that just seems dark and bleak.

Learn to read.

Also; Never heard Gotham used as a term seperate from City, and never heard it used for anything other than relating to Batman.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Not saying the term "Gotham" can be used for any city with corruption.

But that "Gotham City" (The Fictional place) can be an allegory for any corrupt city, or even one that just seems dark and bleak.

Learn to read.

I challenge you to find me even ONE modern use of the term "Gotham City" (fictional or otherwise) that has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING beyond its direct relation to New York City or the Batman canon.

Learn to accept when you're wrong.

You are desperately trying to create a generic adjective (not an "conceptual allegory") for something that no one in 2019 would ever use it for. The concept of a "Gotham City" as a philosophical construct might have been more familiar to 19th century intelligentsia but you're basically looking foolish trying to make the case that anyone would use it in that context in modern usage.

Project_Hero wrote:

Also; Never heard Gotham used as a term seperate from City, and never heard it used for anything other than relating to Batman.

That should have been your hint right there. The reason the DC folks likely used "Gotham" as the name of Batman's home town is PRECISELY because anyone familiar with the term back in the 1930-40s would have associated that word as a "fictional pseudonym" for New York City.

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I am not trying to create an

I am not trying to create an adjective. At all.

All I am saying is that Gotham City is an allegory for any corrupt city.

As in anyone can read about Gotham City and be like "Wow, this is just like [insert city]"

This is the simplist way I can phrase this. I've already stated multiple times that I'm not talking about the word "Gotham" but instead that the Fictional City of Gotham City can be an allegory of a corrupt, crime-ridden city.

Same as the X-Men and their plight are an allegory for anyone that feels they are different and are facing hardships because of that.

So can you stop making a strawman to argue against?

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You know how you can tell

You know how you can tell when things are getting close to going off the rails? Someone tells someone else to "learn to read" on the forums.

I much prefer "let me be clear".

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

You know how you can tell when things are getting close to going off the rails? Someone tells someone else to "learn to read" on the forums.

I much prefer "let me be clear".

Yeah well this "line of discussion" pretty much flew off the rails a few posts ago regardless. At this point Project_Hero is just trying to save face by suggesting anyone today would use an "allegorical reference" from several centuries ago in modern parlance.

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All For One and One for All!

All For One and One for All! *grin*

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
warlocc wrote:

You know how you can tell when things are getting close to going off the rails? Someone tells someone else to "learn to read" on the forums.

I much prefer "let me be clear".

Yeah well this "line of discussion" pretty much flew off the rails a few posts ago regardless. At this point Project_Hero is just trying to save face by suggesting anyone today would use an "allegorical reference" from several centuries ago in modern parlance.

That's not what I am suggesting at all, but go off, I guess.

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For DC though, I believe in

For DC though, I believe in the comics, both Gotham and Metropolis are near New York City, as DC Earth does have New York. The canon behind it all, being that DC Earth is slightly bigger than RL Earth.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

For DC though, I believe in the comics, both Gotham and Metropolis are near New York City, as DC Earth does have New York. The canon behind it all, being that DC Earth is slightly bigger than RL Earth.

Yeah, it's something like that, I'm sure.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

For DC though, I believe in the comics, both Gotham and Metropolis are near New York City, as DC Earth does have New York. The canon behind it all, being that DC Earth is slightly bigger than RL Earth.

Like I said, Marvel did it better :p


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DesViper wrote:
DesViper wrote:
Brand X wrote:

For DC though, I believe in the comics, both Gotham and Metropolis are near New York City, as DC Earth does have New York. The canon behind it all, being that DC Earth is slightly bigger than RL Earth.

Like I said, Marvel did it better :p

Eh, I really like DCs cities. Some of them are as much characters as the heroes who inhabit them.

When they try to blend in real world ones is when it gets dumb for me, Like, just have NYC be Metropolis. Don't try to squeeze them all in there.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
DesViper wrote:
Brand X wrote:

For DC though, I believe in the comics, both Gotham and Metropolis are near New York City, as DC Earth does have New York. The canon behind it all, being that DC Earth is slightly bigger than RL Earth.

Like I said, Marvel did it better :p

Eh, I really like DCs cities. Some of them are as much characters as the heroes who inhabit them.

When they try to blend in real world ones is when it gets dumb for me, Like, just have NYC be Metropolis. Don't try to squeeze them all in there.

That's what I used to think they did.

After all, Metropolis had it's giant statue just like New York's Statue of Liberty.

I also believe for awhile, they just never mentioned NYC in the comics.

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If you look up DC Universe

If you look up DC Universe Atlas, you find that the only published map is by Mayfair Games. Metropolis is in Delaware and Gotham is near New Jersey.

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StellarAgent wrote:
StellarAgent wrote:

If you look up DC Universe Atlas, you find that the only published map is by Mayfair Games. Metropolis is in Delaware and Gotham is near New Jersey.

Is it this one?

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Metropolis sure seems like a

Metropolis sure seems like a ........metropolis :p with only 70k


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Yeah, that seems real low. I

Yeah, that seems real low. I think maybe someone missed a number in there.

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They gave Gotham a bigger

They gave Gotham a bigger population than Metropolis. :p

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I always pictured them being

I always pictured them being comparable cities.


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DesViper wrote:
DesViper wrote:

I always pictured them being comparable cities.

Yeah, I'm sure there was just a mistake somewhere.

According to a quick google...

"Within the DC Universe, Metropolis is depicted as being one of the largest and wealthiest cities in the world, having a population of 11 million citizens."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
DesViper wrote:

I always pictured them being comparable cities.

Yeah, I'm sure there was just a mistake somewhere.

According to a quick google...

"Within the DC Universe, Metropolis is depicted as being one of the largest and wealthiest cities in the world, having a population of 11 million citizens."

At 11 million, if Metropolis were a real modern-day city it wouldn't even be in the top 10. Delhi, India is over 11 million and is only the 15th largest.

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By my google search, Dehli is

By my google search, Dehli is the third largest metro area, but yeah, Metropolis would be around #20 in terms of population.


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That's if in DC's earth other

That's if in DC's earth other cities retain their populations. Which given all the super villian attacks and catastrophic events one could easily assume that the earth's population is generally lower.

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DesViper wrote:
DesViper wrote:

By my google search, Dehli is the third largest metro area, but yeah, Metropolis would be around #20 in terms of population.

Which would still put it as one of the most populous cities on Earth.

#20 out of 50,000 :p

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Eh, I think you gotta be top

Eh, I think you gotta be top 10 to be "one of the most", if not top 5.


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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
DesViper wrote:

I always pictured them being comparable cities.

Yeah, I'm sure there was just a mistake somewhere.

According to a quick google...

"Within the DC Universe, Metropolis is depicted as being one of the largest and wealthiest cities in the world, having a population of 11 million citizens."

At 11 million, if Metropolis were a real modern-day city it wouldn't even be in the top 10. Delhi, India is over 11 million and is only the 15th largest.

How old is the quote about 11 million? If it's from the 80's, real-world cities were a lot smaller then.

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Beamrider wrote:
Beamrider wrote:
Atama wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
DesViper wrote:

I always pictured them being comparable cities.

Yeah, I'm sure there was just a mistake somewhere.

According to a quick google...

"Within the DC Universe, Metropolis is depicted as being one of the largest and wealthiest cities in the world, having a population of 11 million citizens."

At 11 million, if Metropolis were a real modern-day city it wouldn't even be in the top 10. Delhi, India is over 11 million and is only the 15th largest.

How old is the quote about 11 million? If it's from the 80's, real-world cities were a lot smaller then.

It's accredited to multiple sources 1988, 1991, and 2013. That's what the Wikipedia article has on it anyway. Also apparently originally the Metropolis skyline was based on Toronto but has since been made to resemble New York.

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DesViper wrote:
DesViper wrote:

Eh, I think you gotta be top 10 to be "one of the most", if not top 5.

Out of the top 100 maybe.

Top 50,000? That 11 million makes it in the top .0004%

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Well, with respect to the

Well, with respect to the film itself, I wasn't impressed.

What kind of "hero" knocks over ATMs? How do kids get away with vehicular assault (on one side) and assault and battery (on the other) in front of dozens of witnesses? Once Dr. Sivana fails to get what he's after by intimidation, why does he bother to continue the battle? Did Ray Harryhausen animate the Seven Deadly Sins 1960's-style from beyond the grave?

Worst of all, the combat scenes were so terribly uninspired and flat. DC-style Total Invulnerability on both sides takes away much of the dramatic tension, but surely the storyboard people could have put together SOMETHING interesting.

On the other hand, the power testing and discovery scenes were pure gold. How DO you activate flight if you may or may not have the power?

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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How someone activates a super

How someone activates a super power is something that has often fascinated me. Like, how does it work what does it feel like? What do they need to do to shoot eye beams or fly or whatever?

Flight has been an especially interesting topic for me ever since I had a lucid dream where I flew (like a superhero), it was exciting and terrifying as I didn't know if I could keep doing it. I'm probably going to bring that sort of mix of excitement and fear into any character I create who can fly, especially if it's powers they weren't born with. You got powers from an accident, who's to say they're permanent?

Which, unrelated, is a pretty good angle for a super hero story a hero like Superman who's powers are waning or becoming erratic.

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Oh yeah! Props for doing a

Oh yeah! Props for doing a AAA movie without shoehorning a romantic subplot. Now the protagonists are kids, but that doesn't stop most.


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You're all wrong about the

You're all wrong about the cities. :)

Shazam was filmed in Toronto, so therefore, it is set in Canada. :P

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Sivana tower was definitely

Sivana tower was definitely the IDS center :p


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