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I was just thinking about this today. My thought on it was, I hope not. It became so common place, people ignored the content. Instead I'd just like to see multiple low level starting mission arcs, so you can change it up.
+1
Sewer runs murdered low-level content.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Radio missions and sewer runs were a means of grinding out levels, iIMO.... something this, and games like this, have never needed.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Once CoT has six to eight years under its belt I'm certain we can revisit this idea.
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Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Personal unofficial opinion, I agree with this, we want people to experience the content at the start, once they've done that for some time, either we make some new content or we provide a DFB equivalent.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
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If I were making a DFB equivalent for CoT, I'd make it somewhat slower, and also limit it to alts of people who already had a level 30+ character.
Jason Crowell
Zwillinger (Andy Belford) said in one of his broadcasts that he personally wanted to call the Death From Below Trial ... [b]Down the Drain[/b] ... which described very accurately what the Trial did to the early game. Good to hear that the City of Titans team will not replicate this from the beginning.
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Uh, Red, by saying "personal unofficial opinion" Minotaur is explicitly [i]not[/i] promising that. They could still be talked into it by the other team members.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
But DFB was a fun trial tough.
Radio missions were great fun on teams, where people didn't look at the story content anyway. Sometimes folks just want to steamroll a few mobs without missing something important. Which would happen if the only missions available are part of the stories.
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_HUdf89hI8]Send out your signal, call in your hero
I kidnapped his lady, now his power's are zero.
[/url]
Why not give the option for both? Those who want to experience the lore, will. Those who just want to make heads roll, should be able to as well. I loved CoH's lore, and had several characters that played every mission possible because I loved the story. I also had some concept characters that I just wanted to level fast, and killing Hellions and The Lost in the sewers with a good group was great fun. Get in a group with a competent Tanker(usually me lol), a healer, and some damage dealers and its a blast. Get in a group thats reckless and get crushed.
When you think about it, some of the best group play is in those lower levels, where playing your role really shines. Unlike some of the end game where everyone can solo and mobs just become a means.(Not saying soloing is bad, I love soloing too!)
Because Content Creation Isn't FREE?
I mean, ANY Content Creation involves an investment of resources ... even if that investment is nothing more than "Time" spent by volunteers/interns working for no pay.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
IMO, the problem with DFB was it was a bit too generous with XP.
And the early missions could have been more generous with with mission and arc completion XP.
Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator
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I completely agree. I think I read the posts in the wrong context. I took it that they wanted to force players to experience the content, before they add a way to just level fast.
it all sucked. those AE missions where you could make a mastermind hit level in 5 minutes, they were the best.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
Missions definitely should have had more xp. There's a reason why so many people did sewer run equivalents and power leveled. Not to say levels shouldn't be earned, but it definelty shouldn't feel like a part time job..
Because people won't experience content if they can figure out quick levels right away that is like the Sewer Runs. All it takes is on person rushing to max level, then many follow, because they don't want to feel like they're left behind.
Which will then make the ones who do experience content feel way to slow, overshadowed.
So they quit, as do the ones who speed level and then go "What next?"
Besides, one can make head rolls by doing normal missions and ignoring the mission text. :p
While I certainly understand where this is coming from - and agree with it in principle - I am thinking that linking a low level trial to those who've already got a high level character is something that would have to be addressed later on in the game's development.
When the game initially launches - you're going to make everyone unable to play it until they already have a level 30+ character? Nah. I don't see that happening.
However, as was mentioned already - the DFB was a good trial - just too generous with XP. Finding the balance between fun and reward vs. risk is going to be tough.
With CoH, some folks with aggressive play and solid SGs could get a level 50 within hours. Without powerleveling and teams of 8, they might take a little longer.
I'm hoping that XP comes much slower than CoH. Like the way it used to be, before patrol xp. And I would love there to be debt - there would have never been the SG The Debt Junkies without it. I wasn't one of them, but they were a special group. (Liberty server shout out) :D
Devs- just remember that you'll never please all the people all the time.
Those who have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing. - John Cleese
They never will, but lot of players prefer faster levels than CoH before Patrol XP.
Maybe I'm in the minority but I never understood why it bothered people to have others play with a different priority. If I didn't want to take advantage of an exploit or race to 50, or take in all the lore, or read everything my contacts stated, I didn't. If someone races to 50 (30 in this case) and then asks "What next?"...that's their deal, but I seriously doubt people would quit because they chose to experience content and get to the level cap more slowly than the speed gamers/power levelers. If something like that would cause players to quit then they are the type to quit over any other small thing. If, in an attempt to slow down the "speed racers," the devs make the game more "grindy" then they could really cause people to quit out of frustration.
Because then those who do speed through start quitting. See it in new MMOs all the time. "Yay! Made it to max level in two days! What's next? Where's the new content?"
I don't think anyone is suggesting making the trip from level 1 to max level take as long as a year, but in that top example, when you get players like that, they tend to quit easily and take other players with them.
Though is anyone really bothered by not having a mission they have to replay over and over to get to level cap the quickest? o.O
There will be no perceptible amount of time between CoT's launch and the "There's no endgame; this sucks" comments start appearing.
And yeah, it was just oh so wonderful teaming with people who PL'd their way to 50 by repeating one AE mission (or whatever). They had level 50 characters [i]and completely sucked at playing them[/i] due to lack of any working experience with their powers.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
I agree with this, my absolute favourite was the level fortysomething FF/nrg def with none of the ally shields and all the repels. After he caused a near team wipe by repelling everything in sight then KBing it some more, we asked a couple of questions and it became apparent he'd never left AP before and had always played with his level 50 friends. Then he did cause a wipe and we kicked him.
I only started PLing my toons after I already had 72 50s.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
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As much as I enjoyed being PL'd somewhat (esp before the leveling curve was adjusted) to get through the 30s, I PLAYED to get that far and got all but 1 50 the hard way.
I know some people will PL no matter what but I see no reason to encourage it. I suggest no more door camping. A sidekick has to be within 100' of the Mentor or they get no bonus XP. This puts them at least close to the action and deters folks from 'Ok we're started I'm off to do dishes.'
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I played the sewer trial on alts a lot. With a good team it was fun. The problem with a lot of other content in that level range was that 8 man teams just weren't that much fun or the missions were too short with a good team so you had to wait for someone to go back to a contact for a new mission.
CoH was surprisingly good for solo and small groups at the lower levels (30 and under) but not good for large groups except for the trials and task forces. I hope CoT works for solo play and small and large groups. I would even like to see some raids at various levels.
Like I said, I'm in the minority. However, I guess I don't get the mentality that everyone must take certain powers (who cares if a toon takes all repel powers? It's their choice) or everyone must be as good as I am or if you cause a team wipe I'm booting you from the team, etc...Now, if someone consistently makes the same mistakes over and over, refuses to listen to suggestions AND the team keeps getting wiped out, then a kick from team is probably deserved. One incident that stuck with me was a time when an empathy player was consistently badgered by a team that was trying to fly through a mission. HEAL ME! and YOU SUCK AT HEALING! by several team members were the mildest of the text fired at this toon. I became excessively frustrated at this because the team was trying to herd too many mobs and we kept getting wiped and they were blaming it all on this one defender trying his/her best. When the toon stated "I'm sorry, I'm only 7" my heart broke and my internal ire was directed at these elitist power gamers. Point is, nobody really knows the history and real life person behind each character and I think we should resist the rush to judgement about players. And I believe that players racing to the end game and complaining about no end game content are not long for the game anyway, but those that have their fun ruined by a bunch of elitist, "I'm good at this game so everyone should listen to me and play the way I do" jerks are also going to become frustrated and quit playing as well. I'm not saying we should make it easy to power level but if someone figures out a way (and they always do), I could really care less and it doesn't become a concern. When someone asks me to pl them or if I can bridge, I simply say "No thank you" and move on my way without a second thought.
As a parent, let me be the first to say, it's not the players fault. No way they should expect to be teamed with a seven year old in the first place. CoH was a Teen rated game, first 13+ then 16+.
And if they went in with certain expectation from the healers, knowing the whole plan was a herd and farm and have the healer heal them, I have to ask, was it stated at the start?
Mind you, I always found it funny when teams couldn't learn to hold back a little on how many they try to gather.
Isn't doing normal missions and ignoring the mission text the same thing as not experiencing the content? The way other people want to play has no effect on how I play. Left behind? If you want to experience the content, you're going to regardless of how someone else plays.
I power leveled a few times because I had concept characters in mind that would only be viable at a certain level. Like my all natural Claws/SuperReflexes scrapper with no travel power, only slotted swift/hurdle/sprint/combat jumping/Eluded for traveling. Or I had an idea for an "Anti-Stalker" tanker for Sirens Call? that was Ice/SuperStrength. I had some great times and never quit.
I'm not saying there should be a system in place just for power leveling, I'm just supporting an idea that another player had that they thought was fun in CoH.
Nope it isn't.
Making something like that means time not spending with real content, and makes it look to the devs that content at that level may not be worth it.
I by all means agree that story content should be priority #1. But for everyone to act like static spawns in a sewer ruined gameplay for them is absolutely inaccurate. Make exciting story content and people will play it, but you shouldn't force them to.
I didn't suggest not giving multiple starting storylines. Just saying don't put in a level 1-10 trial for people to speed through for massive xp.
COH had Freedom to Powerlevel and to do Story missions.
I expect CoT to have the same kind of Freedom.
I equally liked the Story Missions in Low level. I loved to execute the Longbow Traitor, letting him know, I just used him, as I loved DFB.
I never maxxed out any of my chars or used Mids, but I could play solo or with teams. CoH was full of Options and i liked that Freedom.
I have to confess, I really enjoyed DFB, but then I had 172 alts in my stable so I'd more or less played the low level content to death by that point.
That said, I don't think there's a need for a rapid leveling route at launch or for a while thereafter. Once the game is a few years old and people have played through the lowbie arcs time and again, it'll probably be worth considering ideas like allowing veterans to auto-level to 10 or 20 or some point where the character is no longer in learning mode and feels complete and playable.
http://storytreader.com - A collection of stories for you to enjoy.
First - I want to thank all of you for your posts. Thoughtful, heartfelt and definitely making me nostalgic for CoH - yet hopeful for the future with CoT.
That being said, we're all a little different. And, yet, all a little bit the same. Within the game, we're all going to have certain things that we'll enjoy more than others - and then, maybe on a different day, with a different mood, we'll enjoy something more than we otherwise would.
In a nutshell, I'm all about options. Options to team, options to solo. And, why not the option to turn xp off for those inclined to experience EVERYTHING with each character?
Those who have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing. - John Cleese
*is watching this thread and taking notes, so keep the comments coming*
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Conundrum of Furballs
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team, Staff Writer[/color]
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Unfortunately I haven't been able to keep up much with the development of this game but I am very excited about it. This may already be addressed somewhere, but I am going to say it for the conversation's sake. Just a thought on getting involved in the story line versus power leveling/ignoring texts like one could do in CoH, perhaps a more interactive approach to the content, such as with SWTOR where you choose a reply for the conversation. To take that even further, it could also be used for alignments from hero to villain, etc.
This comment surprises me, if on a large group, turn the difficulty up. A level 15 team of 6-8 just needs to find whether +2/3/4 x8 is the right place. (From somebody who actually used to enjoy doing the skyspec and freakspec on +3x8 with a team of 5 or 6 as it killed some of the reactor room waiting).
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But changing difficulty involved a cost and a trip to the Hero Corps guy, wherever they were in your zone. This is more annoying for lowbies who are short on cash and travel powers than it is for most characters.
Also note:
So the time cost of hitting the HC guy (and possibly a mission reset so the new difficulty takes effect) would be on top of existing time sitting around waiting for the leader to get done setting up.
Maybe CoT should let mission owners set difficulty directly from the UI and not require hitting a contact?
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
*cough* ... Cell Phone Contact ... *cough*
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Not even that. Take the whole notion of "difficulty setting" out of the "game world" and make it a straight Out-Of-Character thing.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
I like that idea.
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_HUdf89hI8]Send out your signal, call in your hero
I kidnapped his lady, now his power's are zero.
[/url]
Yes, let the player set their difficulty and the team take on teh difficulty of teh team leader (so there would have to be a way that teh team would know what difficulty setting they were fighting on). I like that idea.
We all have it in us to be a hero to someone,
Super powers are optional.....
Part of the Phoenix Rising Initiative.....
Proud to be a hero. Prouder still to be a member of [url=http://www.watchfire-online.info]Watchfire[/url]
Agreed. Hated how everything was made an IC thing in CoH. Some things CoH did right, this was not one of them.
Normally, I would concur that it is up to the individual player as to how they wish to gain XP/levels. However, power-leveling just to be max level is not only an empty pursuit, but hurts any team which the power-leveler joins if they have not already taken the slower road to learn the specific skills of that exact character type. If the power-leveler is not going to contribute their fair share to combat, then they should be booted from the team, which is *not* there for the sole purpose of wasting the valuable time of the other players while indulging the overinflated ego of someone with entitlement issues.
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IIRC they did it that way because they saw it as an inf sink (this was way befroe Wentworth's and all), and going through a contact was the way they could do it.
There should be no similar need in CoT.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Being an influence sink isn't bad, just doesn't need contacts. Admittedly, my thought on this is in the wish to have this feel more like a comic book and less like a MMO game where all the IC feels like it should be OOC.
I'm not sure I agree with bits in this thread so :
1) it's annoying to have to go turn your difficulty up.
- oh well. don't then. or do. but don't complain about an option you have been given that you are just too lazy to take advantage of
2) PL - however it's achieved - is a bad thing.
- I very rarely played with someone who had clearly levelled and didn't understand their character. I mostly played with people who were playing the content and didn't understand their character. That's the same thing right? Level 10, nobody knows what they are doing. I also played with thousands of level 50s and did not come across many who couldn't handle their character, most PL'ers had other characters and just wanted to play that level fotm toon. They mostly had the cash to gear it out. I'd guess the numbers on bad PLed toons would be exceedingly low.
3) You need to play a character to know how it works.
- No, you really didn't. Got a blaster? Got a build? Roll it up. It's not like CoX was Go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28game%29) or anything.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
With regards to Diff changing: It's not a matter of being lazy but in order to change the Diff you had to stop, leave the mish if you were in one, the leader had to run to the Contact etc. PITA and unnecessary IMHO.
Before we knock the phrase PL around we should define what it means: Power-leveling, to me, means receiving xp in greater amounts than normal, often with no risk or effort at all. It was particularly bad for 'door-campers' who would enter a mission and then sit while others did the work. Hell some people CHARGED for this 'service' on Freedom! Getting on a team that is blowing through content at an alarming rate while everyone helps is NOT PLing...it's steamrolling and it can be fun! I don't subscribe to PLing much myself but is it really worth the effort to build a bunch of roadblocks for it? I say throw in some basic mechanics to keep it from going completely out of control and move on.
On having to play a character to know how they work: Depends on the character. I loved Blasters and I'm pretty sure I could figure out a PL'd one in a day or less. However playing 8 Blasters to 50 does NOT mean I know how to play a PL'd Controller, Tank or MasterMind (especially the Mastermind...)
In another thread http://cityoftitans.com/forum/adjusting-diff-fly-horde I suggested what I think is a novel idea: Missions that self-adjust their Difficulty in the form of additional spawns. The idea is very rough but I think it has potential.
I like the idea of the party being able to adjust how difficult they want their challenge. If they just want to roll, let 'em. However if the team is really doing well and wants a challenge why should they have to go to a TF to get it?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
It was totally a matter of being lazy. Got a team? Half a team.. ok chug along on your standard difficulty. Going well? Team full? Going GREAT?
Yeah, at that point it's you being lazy not upping the difficulty. You have a GREAT, FULL team. You have just run a GREAT mission and are now out of it (post mission analysis has revealed it's going well, nobody is leaving and yes, everyone would be up for a difficulty increase). The contact is there.. just over there.. two streets away..
Now mostly the contact wasn't two streets away, it was on an obscure statue in the middle of nowhere, maybe on a map whose difficulty level prohibited you getting there AND you didn't have a travel power. The solution would be more contacts but it would be just as easy to have it be a menu item I guess. I dunno tho, I liked the contact, it is more immersive than a menu adjustment. And you can't travel to a menu and get a badge.
The main thing about inheriting a level capped character - whether you just bought one, are playing on a friends account or got a powerlevel to cap - isn't that you don't know how to play CoX but that you don't know what buttons do what.
If you had never played CoX before and literally went round to someones house and they forced you to play their level 50 purpled out tank.. it would not take you long to realise what to do. You run in first. Or at least nobody else is moving until you go.. so you go. You attract the mobs to you.. well they are naturally attracted to you. Go you. You probably press stuff. It probably attacks things with an axe or staff or something. You probably win.
Most of the time however you've seen what tanks do, you understand you need to turn your shields on, you're IO'ed out the wazoo and looking forward to tanking the ass off some giant swarms.
This is not to say I think we should see a return to those 15 minute 0-cap levelling missions at all. Au contraire, I'm a big fan of playing the content. Every time. Got 10 50s? Want another? "but I don't want to have to play the content again" - oh well, sucks to be you. Play the content or get out. Make it faster by going to the contact, turn the difficulty up and play hard.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
We don't know what most people think yet. Even in CoX where you could make a good guess based on a large number of forum posters, that still represented a tiny amount of players.
There is an advantage to being in the first wave of level capped players, it gives you access to higher level gear and usually more cash / kill. I usually try to get there quickly without hitting the grind wall then roll a million alts and enjoy everything else the game has to offer but the ultimate goal if there is a level cap, is to hit it.
You can't just say "all those first wavers are jerks", look at xpxp weekends, there are people who get level capped toons from it by staying up all weekend with energy drinks. Some people like a challenge, regardless of what it is.
It's more likely that the second and third wavers will quit because they got to level cap in the normal way, generally still quicker than everyone else and find that the first wavers are now rolling alts, there is nobody to play with and nothing to do. The same as in every game. Some people are just serial self-entertainers, they will hop from game to game. They will return when there is an expansion pack, when there is a new class, when pvp gets added.
Then there is the turtler, the soloer or group that reads everything, that RP's levels 1-10 for two months. Those people are worse than PL'ers, they aren't interacting fully, they are gobbling up low level gear that later turns out to be useful and costs loads, they are setting up proper SGs for their groups, they have tons of alts. So yeah turtling is as bad as PL'ing and should be equally discouraged.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
Not sure how we got from sewer run to PL'ing really.. didn't it self-cap at about 10?
And I can't have been the only one who dropped out to get the first bank mission anyway.
If you wanted to PL, the sewer run wasn't where you headed, the AE building was.
The sewer run must have broken the devs own rules on risk/reward but that's easy to tweak, I don't see that it was this terrible thing at all, it effectively made a team stick together for a lot longer than many radio / tips teams did which is definitely a good thing. I ran lots where everyone stayed and ran it a few times.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
I need to debunk a few things before I begin:
"It was totally a matter of being lazy." "Now mostly the contact wasn't two streets away, it was on an obscure statue in the middle of nowhere, maybe on a map whose difficulty level prohibited you getting there AND you didn't have a travel power. The solution would be more contacts but it would be just as easy to have it be a menu item I guess. I dunno tho, I liked the contact, it is more immersive than a menu adjustment. And you can't travel to a menu and get a badge."
Or maybe the Contact gives me his phone number, I call him and adjust the mission difficulty from the front door?
"The main thing about inheriting a level capped character - whether you just bought one, are playing on a friends account or got a powerlevel to cap - isn't that you don't know how to play CoX but that you don't know what buttons do what."
HUH? How on earth did you go from 'inheriting' a capped character (what does that even mean?) to 'the main thing is knowing what buttons do what'? Um...you could CHANGE the keystrokes to trigger the various Powers...once you knew what they actually did. Yes, tying a brand new player to a chair and making them play a 50 could be a bit of a mess. However I don't recall there being a rash of these...ever.
I'm still trying to figure out how being a 'first-waver' has any bearing on anything. You DO realize that there will be players who join the game LONG after the first players have hit the level cap right? I'm hoping they don't have the same bias against those that came before as you seem to.
"Then there is the turtler, the soloer or group that reads everything, that RP's levels 1-10 for two months. Those people are worse than PL'ers, they aren't interacting fully, they are gobbling up low level gear that later turns out to be useful and costs loads, they are setting up proper SGs for their groups, they have tons of alts. So yeah turtling is as bad as PL'ing and should be equally discouraged."
They aren't interacting fully? Based on what...YOUR opinion? 'Gobbling up low-level gear?' You DO understand that there is effectively an infinite amount of this stuff right? The GAME generates it as rewards for people who play the content. Please don't bad-mouth anyone's playstyle. They pay the same as you do as as far as I can tell so far they haven't bothered you at all.
"The sewer run must have broken the devs own rules on risk/reward but that's easy to tweak, I don't see that it was this terrible thing at all, it effectively made a team stick together for a lot longer than many radio / tips teams did which is definitely a good thing. I ran lots where everyone stayed and ran it a few times."
The only thing the Sewer Run did was place LOTS of enemies in a relatively small space. There was no PLing involved typically. The reason characters leveled so fast was that there was no down-time. No 'missions done...waste ten minutes getting to the next one, getting sorted, oops taking a bio I gotta buy/sell/train.' If all of those things were not in the game then the whole thing would feel like one big Sewer Run. Oh, and the fact that the small amount of xp needed to ding at that level of course. IIRC there was also some sort of xp bonus at the lowest levels but my memory is fuzzy.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Maybe you do get a difficulty contact as a contact in your contacts list. I'm not opposed to that, I just like the idea of going to a contact and changing stuff. /shrug
I'm glad you didn't see a rash of PL'ed players who couldn't play. Other people said they did. I was pointing out it wasn't hard to figure out how to play.
First waver was a response to figuring out who burned out on the game first. The implication was that played-too-quickly-for-their-own-good type people.. would leave first. I'd disagree with that and say once you've hit that challenge of getting to level cap first.. you'd probably stay and do more stuff in the game.
Um yes.. turtling was in response to "PLers are all bad". Why only pick on one extreme? Turtlers as evil marketeers.. sure, why not. As ruiners of the game.. sure, why not?
The sewer run was far too much reward for far too little risk, you usually steamrollered the content a few times and hit 10 or 11 faster than normal. I personally didn't see this as terrible but others do.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
It seems like we are talking about a few very distinct things. One is powerleveling, specifically the effects it has on players who rush to max level without actually understanding game mechanics or how their powers work. Another is the problem with people who quickly outlevel content and then become bored with the game. The third issue is DFB itself, how it was set up, whether it was fun or not, etc.
In general when I think of classic powerleveling in COX, I think of things like Freak Farms, Werewolf herding, AE Fire missions, etc. Situations where weaknesses of enemies are exploited by higher level characters in order to give massive amounts of XP to lower level characters. In general, the lower level characters are simply doorsitters who leech off of their team. Typically one or two higher level players are doing all the work. This wasn't really the case with DFB.
In terms of how fast does it take one to hit the level cap, different people are going to progress at different rates. In COX, the exemplar system allowed for people to go back and experience content that they had outleveled. Is there too much content? Too little content? In my opinion, the concept of exemplaring and flashbacks were examples of COX absolutely hitting the bullseye. If you level "too fast" and miss content, you can always go back and pick it back up. Or play it a second time. Or run a lower level TF. Could the concept of exemplaring stand to be tweaked? Sure. But at a basic level, it addresses the question of "what to do after the level cap?"
As for DFB itself, there weren't very many differences between it and just doing door missions. A couple of things stand out. One was that each level had trainers. No wasted time running back to Ms Liberty to level. Another was that you didn't have to run back to contacts or spend time running from mission door to mission door. Yet another difference was that, because it was a trial, everyone bought into sticking together for a set amount of time (no recruiting players between missions, etc). Oh, and players know the map of DFB, so they aren't spending time running around looking for that last hellion. Those factors pretty much explained the majority of XP gain involved with DFB. Obviously AVs gave more XP than regular bosses, and taking down 5 AVs in short order wasn't something that you could do running radio missions . . . but I think the biggest draw about DFB was that it was an easy way to get a big group together to take down foes without a bunch of running around or time sinks. Take out leveling breaks, travel time, and downtime to recruit players who drop, and I don't think you'd see a huge difference between DFB and radio missions as far as XP gain. (note: I re-read ParagonWiki, and apparently there were extra XP bonuses to DFB beyond fighting AVs. Those might need to be toned down if a DFBesque trial was available at launch in COT).
On the other hand, DFB was *fun*. It was fast paced team action and the foes weren't pushovers. Sure, if everyone knew what they were doing it was easy. But that wasn't anything unique about DFB. You couldn't have one player carrying all the weight in DFB, everyone needed to contribute. You'd have to use your powers, not just sit at the door and let the xp roll in. It was a superb introduction to team content, and it minimized some of the annoying facets of being in large teams (primarily all the downtime, as above). There was a *lot* to like about DFB.
Here's what I would change. I'd tone down the XP bonuses. The rewards at the end, the hydra enhancer temp powers? Having 4 different bonuses that last for a week or until level 22 kind of makes it seem like you should do DFB at least 4 times. Moreover, those bonuses wouldn't stack with Drowning in Blood, and (if memory is correct) the DiB bonuses were inferior to the DFB bonuses. To me the big flaw of DFB was that it was simply superior to running DiB, even after you hit 15. Instead of being a great introduction to team content, you were almost encouraged to stick with DFB (as opposed to doing Posi TF or DiB). I wouldn't worry about a particular trial or TF competing with story arcs . . . that doesn't really affect anyone else. In my opinion, it is more important to make sure that trials/TFs are balanced against each other, so that there are ample amounts of players seeking out a variety of group content.
just to add my $.02 to the conversation...
While I can't remember ever "power leveling" I did enjoy sewer runs for many Alts and did it mostly to get access to higher power abilities of various power sets that lower level content just couldn't access quickly enough for my taste...It always seemed to me that you couldn't really start playing a character until you had reached levels 10+ in CoX and the levels 1-10 were more for the new players to get used to key functions and such that the tutorial just introduced, I found this especially true for my favorite character class "Tanker"...If powers in CoT end up being al carte instead of power trees this could be mitigated...
Additionally, a simple answer to "door sitting" seems rather obvious to me, and is something I had personally petitioned the former CoX Devs about instituting, just install a proximity for exp. aspect to missions/content, this would not allow for "door sitting" as players would have to follow the action regardless of their interaction...
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic...Arthur C. Clarke
While I know that it won't be likely at the start, a TF path that will explain a pivotal piece of game history, lore or plot that can go from lvl 10 all the way to level 20 would be nice. Each TF would have enough missions for 2-3 levels and drop clues to the next piece of the puzzle.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
The problem with sewer missions and other 'leveling shortcuts' is that they murder the experience for new players.
Everquest is an (extreme) example of this problem. The game has an absolutely insane amount of content, more than the several next biggest game put together. Except that it means nothing and the servers keeping those many zones running might as well be shut down. Players never visit them because in their zeal to get players as quickly as possible to the latest zone, there is no point going anywhere. There is a single expansion that will get you efficiently to level 80. Gear drops form a_large_rat that in older zones would require special missions and no small amount of luck on the drops (and spawns). So those old world zones are ignored and those old world missions are skipped (the special equipment that drops at level 5 is more powerful than the gear that needed a considerable amount of effort at level 35 in the original game).
I cracked up laughing as soon as I saw the title of this thread.
7 year CoX vet. and despite graphics still thinks it's the most beautiful MMO.
I dunno. I was in CoV exclusively for about three years before I ever set foot blueside - back in the day, you had to buy the two games separately, and why would I do that when all the really cool folks were obviously villains? I'm joking, really, but it always did seem to me that redside had a more mature, friendly playerbase.
Regardless! I can tell you that we on redside endured cutscenes involving two humanoid snakes telling each other "But Boss! Surely they will resent our intrusion!" a whooooooooooooooooole bunch of times. So many times, that I could probably quote most of that cutscene from memory.
So I'm not really sure that sewer runs are keeping people from "experiencing quality lowbie missions," or whatever. I just wanted to get to level 6 ASAP, so I could pick up Hover and float over Mercy in peace. [Or mostly peace.] ALL lowbie mishes are pretty much ignorable content, after about twenty runs. Or less! But you get my point. I did a few sewer runs blueside, or DFB and bam, I was coming up on level 10 painlessly. You see, I wanted to get to the REALLY FUN stuff. Which did not involve humanoid snakes.
Remember that redside level 50 mish that sent you into the Snake cavern and you had to fight an endless succession of EB-level bosses that came out of the eggs? Man that thing was brutal >:-)
Yes, you experienced that many times. Now ask yourself, would you have experienced it that many times if you didn't (and I'm really not sure if you did, it just sounds like it might have been the case) keep rolling up a new character all the time and focused on getting more of them to 50?
When I went from 1-50 on a character and focused on a character, that scene you mentioned was like a distant memory. When I kept rerolling the character at level 10 or making a new concept every few hours, then it would become "What? Again?"
I think the key is not giving us something to bypass the regular lowbie content, but to give us a variety of good lowbie content. The problem with CoV was that there was only one starting path. I hate to say anything good about WoW, but I have to admit having a different lowbie experience for each race certainly helped keep the lowbie stuff fresh.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Well blue side wasn't really much better, although there wasn't the cut scene problem.... Although I think that this will always be a problem. I know people in WoW who get bored of the starting area's because they *have* done them far too much over the years... But that could also be the "been there, done that, why shold I do it again" style of play....
This sounds dangerously close to "you're doing it wrong." And in my opinion, telling people they were doing it wrong is.... both not really the truth, and annoying to the person being reprimanded.
When I was new to CoV, yes I admit it: I rolled a bunch of characters, many of whom ended up being deleted, as I sought one or two I felt comfortable learning on. CoX was my introduction to MMO gaming. I made plenty of mistakes and racked up God only knows how much debt on my main alt, a Mind/energy Dom, on my way to 50. [It didn't help that my gaming buddy was a debt magnet himself.... ah those were the days.] That was how I learned to play. I am undergoing similar pain in CO at the moment.
If you wanted to roll one alt and not roll another until that one dinged 50, that's absolutely valid. Its ALSO valid to do a little - or a lot - of experimentation. This means seeing that opening sequence and those lowbie mishes a whooooole bunch of times. There tends to not be a ton of effort put into lowbie missions from the get-go, which only contributes to the problem. I speak as someone who had 35 level 50 alts at game closure, and about another twenty I was pootle-ing around with on the side, of various levels. That's not the most ever, but its far from the least.
I do not expect to see a Death From Below equivalent in CoT at launch. However, as the game ages I think its a nice perk to put in for people who have MORE THAN paid their dues to learn the game. However people want to play the game, its up to them. If people want to spend endless time jogging back to their opening contact across a map loaded with hostiles, that's great. Me, I am probably going to be hunting a sewer grate or its equivalent, after about 6 months.
Back in the day I would have rejected this idea but then I thought about ALL the alts I made up simply as a proof of concept. Will X Primary mesh well with Y Secondary AND my playstyle? Dunno...let's see! Nope...throw that one out and see what else we can come up with.
IMHO we should be expected to go through the lowbie content for a while, especially the first year or so while the game is shaking out. How can we give good feedback on the earliest Powers if we only have to rely on them for 3 minutes before leveling? Assuming they listen to our feedback (you guys ARE reading this right?), we owe it to ourselves and the game to actually PLAY the early stuff enough to give it an accurate review.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
It wasn't meant to be a "You're doing it wrong" it was meant more as a "If you're going to keep rerolling characters every other day, what do you expect?"
You go from level 1-8 every day in CoV, you were going to see the same few storylines CONSTANTLY!
You take a character from level 1-50 then make a new one, seeing that same scene you hadn't seen in 42 levels isn't going to seem as repetitive.
And in CoX's case, the ride to 50 could be even more diverse, more so than say TOR, where you didn't even have alternate contact paths.
This is honestly a really great thread. There used to be a couple of people on Freedom that would stand beside Ms. Liberty and tell lowbies NOT to run the sewer trial for fear of missing other content. I can certianly see both sides of the coin here as well. Most of us here had several level 50's, I ended with five, and let me tell you, on that fifth (heck even the fourth) I had no desire to see the low end stuff again. That being said, on my first three trips to 50 there was enough diversity to make rolling a new toon fun.
My first toon started out in AP and moved on to The Hollows (Frostfire too stronk). My second toon went the Galaxy City > Kings Row route. My third toon went back to the AP Hollows route because I hadn't seen it in a while and I wanted to experience it with my new powers.
So through my ranting I guess I am saying I see the benefits of both. Maybe this time around however, make the DFB type trail something that unlocks after reaching max level.
As a side point, DFB wasn't the worst offender for allowing even F2Pers/New Players the chance to skip content and level quickly. The Halloween Event (or Get to Level 50 in 3 Days Event) was much worse. During the last Halloween Event I took a brand new toon to Peregrine Island and got on a Trick or Treat team, and got to level 30 after a few hours of farming. Sure it was boring, but it was fast, and I would have rather have done that than run through Manticore's Mansion for the umpteenth time.
I saw the thread title and just smiled. The sewer was run was practically obligatory for all my toons. It was a nice, easy and natural way to immediately hook up with other players and group combat is one area in which I think CoH truly shone. I don't know if the developers designed the sewers for this purpose but it worked so well.
A spiritual successor to CoH including a sewer run seems right.
I just hope there wouldn't be any legal barrier. How closely can you copy another game before it's too close?
Just make a mission from a contact that's in the sewer, and you have it just like old times. People want to repeat it, they can hook up with other people who have the mission. :)
Sure there's a bunch of ne'er-do-wells just congregating in dank corridors, but if some costumed crusaders burst in and start busting heads unprovoked, then is that justice? Food for thought.
In a PnP, doing a new campaign, some players will want to immediately leave the town and just start whacking goblins in a cave or rabid ferrets in the woods -- before the actual story gets a chance to be engaged -- for no other reason except the players' idea of fun. FFT part two.
(If either of the above situations are perceived as a problem, I hope it's obvious that the fault is not exactly the player's.)
I always wondered! Did my villain deserve to be flamethrowered to death for the high crime of.... entering a Longbow facility unannounced?! That seemed really harsh, lol.
OF COURSE!
Such is why I always roll out the red carpet when entering a hero's base.
...And by red carpet, I MEAN A PATH OF DESTRUCTION!
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Yes. Because according to CoH your villain could not only take it, you were that evil :p
Some things just need to be hand waved, because the game really can't distinguish backstories. Villain had a secret identity? Only in your concept. Game always knew you were a super villain. Even when you were dressed in civvie attire and just minding your business :p
No, no, you were just incinerated into a state of arrest. :-)
Spurn all ye kindle.