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A separate PvP system.

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Brainbot
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A separate PvP system.

Recently another thread about PVP got me thinking. That thread was mostly about what people liked or disliked in CoH's PvP and I think that's a good thread to keep discussing those aspects.

In this thread I would like to talk about mechanics for a dedicated PvP system. I won't be talking about ganking or other PvP behavior in this thread.

As I like to do with long suggestions, I will break the post into a few parts for easy reference.

First I would like to discuss the issues I personally have with most MMO PVP. These are my issues and if you don't agree with them then the rest of my suggestion will likely not thrill you.

1: Balance. I find there is no way to truly balance MMO PvP. Between gear, power selection, level and class there are too many variables to give everyone a level playing field.

2: Barrier of Entry. In order to participate in most MMO PvP a player needs to spend time playing PvE in order to level up a character. This is only compounded when the PvP system encourages multiple characters to stay competitive due to a rock/paper/scissors measure of balance.

3: Changes in mechanics. In order to provide balance some PvE mechanics require radical changes in a PvP setting which dissuades new players from joining.

4: Attachment to character. Due to the investment required to develop a character for PvP, players become attached to those characters. This can cause issues between the dedicated PvP player and the casual one.

Those four things are what I personally feel to be the biggest issues in MMO PvP. In previous types of systems there have been so many ways for dedicated PvP players to gain advantages over others that have nothing to do with skill. They can have higher levels, best PvP power selection, best PvP class, and best gear. Because the are interested in PvP first, they only play characters designed for PvP limiting how much time investment they need for PvP. They understand the changes to mechanics because PvE was a means to an end. And, they are not, typically, as attached emotionally to characters so losses do not have the same impact on them.

What this does is separate the dedicated PvP player from the non-dedicated Player and acts as a deterrent for the less dedicated players.

So how do you fix those issues? You don't, you embrace them.

(Continued)

Brainbot
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Overview

Overview

The system I am suggesting would be separated from PvE completely, not just location but mechanically as well.

This is going to be a little hard to give a brief overview of so I hope I do ok. I know most of this is going to be a 'non-starter' for many players but I hope you can reserve judgement until reading all of what I have to say.

1: Do not allow PvE characters access to PvP. Remove class, PvE level, PvE powers and gear from PvP entirely.

2: All PvP characters start with a base that players build on using a specific set of abilities, merits/flaws and temp powers. This will include pre-generated characters for fast entry as well as player designed characters.

3: Introduce an account wide PvP level which confers a limited non-combat bonus to players engaging in PvP and opens other PvP options.

4: Multiple types of PvP encounters.

The core PvP combat system would be the same as the combat system in PvE such as tab targeting, momentum and so forth.

(continued)

Brainbot
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Alright, now let me elaborate

Alright, now let me elaborate on each part of the system a bit further.

Do not allow PvE characters in PvP. Remove class, PvE level and gear from PvP entirely.

I understand that this is going to be the biggest divergence in previous PvP systems and will likely have the most pushback from players in general.

As I said, the sheer amount of options players are given in PvE with powers, level, gear and class are the main problem MMO PvP has in balancing which results in drastic changes to the way some abilities work in PvP. Because of that difficulty I suggest removing them entirely from PvP and the easiest way to do so is by not allowing PvE characters in PvP.
This removal of gear, PvE powers, PvE level and class will allow the developers to design abilities specifically for PvP without it having an impact or being tied to PvE. It will also allow the developers to do re-balancing for either PvE or PvP without it affecting the other directly/indirectly.

This type of seperation also eliminates other issues I have with MMO PvP.
Because the expected time played in PvE is removed players are able to engage in PvP quickly removing the barrier of entry. Also, because there isn't a required extended play period the attachment to character is limited to a great degree.

I do get that this separation causes a huge problem for players who want to take a character from PvE into PvP. Hopefully players would be able to create a PvP character using the tools provided which is close enough to be acceptable but it is unlikely to be the case. It will boil down to whether or not you think this system is worth more than the option to bring PvE characters into PvP.

(continued)

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All PvP characters start with

All PvP characters start with a base that players build on using a specific set of abilities, merits/flaws and temp powers. This will include pre-generated characters for fast entry as well as player designed characters.

When a player enter PvP they will be given a choice of which character they will play. One of many pre-generated characters, a character they had previously built themselves or designing a new PvP character.

The pre-generated characters will be diverse and should include builds that reflect PvE classes, but as a function of the separate, classless PvP system will not be exact replications. This diverse selection will give an easy entry point for both dedicated PvP and casual players. It will also give a quick switch option for those times when a player in PvP encounters a hard counter to his current build.

The characters a character has built before for PvP are saved here and this is an area where PvP level will have an affect which I will go into shortly.

This brings us to the meat of the system.
Because PvP is separate from PvE, players will need a PvP character to participate.

Without more information of the game it is difficult to be too specific about this part but I will attempt to be clear.

To create a PvP character you begin with a base character which you build upon.
First you pick a selection of abilities (powers) which are specifically balanced for their use in PvP. This selection will not have as many abilities in a set because they are designed purely for combat and so learning what they do is not a monumental endeavor. How these abilities are balanced is up to the devs but it would likely be a different math than they used for balancing PvE. Then once a set is chosen you further fine tune a build by selecting which of those abilities you use. This is very much the same as you would build a character in PvE but instead of earning powers as you level you have them all available at creation to chose from.

Then a player can picks merits which have corresponding flaws. The reason why these merits have a corresponding flaw that is non-negotiable is eliminate the practice of picking strong merits with weak flaws. In other words, you can't get a merit without getting a flaw that equal in strength and unavoidable in its application.
These merits/flaws would again be designed by the devs but this is where a PvP character would get it's identity. They would include simple elements like damage or resistance but also include more complex elements like range capabilities, movement speed, stealth elements, control aspects and so forth.
It's how to reflect PvE classes and their play styles in a classless system as well as giving players more freedom to explore classless characters.

Temp powers are included for a few reasons. Temp powers have a limited amount of uses and as such require a more judicious approach to their use. Because they cannot be a constant they can have more unique effect that can offer new twists to encounters. These, as I envision them, should not be attacks, but instead should be ways to change the nature of the encounter.
As an example, A Trap Temporary power could be an enemy target AoE effect that makes an impregnable bubble in the area for a short duration. No one can enter or leave the bubble and no one outside can affect those inside and vice versa. So what we have here is a temp power that can have multiple uses but none of them directly harms a character. You can trap a character so you can get away, you can trap a character so they can't get away. It can hit a single target or hit as many people who fit in the AoE of the power. This isn't a power you can toss around in every encounter but when you do use it there is an immediate effect and it changes the nature of the encounter.
There can also be a temp power which counters this one.

So these temp powers, if designed as a way to change the nature of the encounter, allow for more strategic application, do not directly influence the outcome and can be a part of a move-countermove element. This would also have ties to the PvP leveling system that I will go into shortly.

(Continued)
(Edit is in Red)

Brainbot
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Introduce an account wide PvP

Introduce an account wide PvP level which confers a limited non-combat bonus to players engaging in PvP and opens other PvP options.

As I see it, someone who wants to PvP should never have to engage in PvE if they don't want to anymore than someone who wants to do PvE shouldn't be required to PvP. You are free to do both of course but neither is a prerequisite for the other.
Because I have suggested removing individual character level, in order to give a measure of a players PvP advancement and to offer rewards I suggest an account wide PvP level system. The exact nature of how these levels are earned is not important, but they should be earned through a combination of time invested and greater skill in PvP.

A players PvP level would allow them access to higher PvP zones/events, more PvP character slots in which to build your own PvP character, more temp power options and so on.

Obviously, as a player gains skill in PvP they would be more inclined to find opponents who are a challenge for them. By having a PvP level requirement for zones/events you can limit them to an appropriate skill level of players. And because this is a PvP level and not a PvE level it will represent PvP skill. This can also be used in reverse. There can be zones/events which require a player to be within a specific range of PvP level to participate so that you don't have the very skilled actively engaging the still learning players unless they allow it.

Rewards are important, even in PvP. Some rewards should only be required to earn once in order for a player to have access to them. A PvP level is a way to present these types of rewards.
By giving more PvP character slots to higher level PvP players you offer a chance for them to move past the pre-generated characters into a personalized stable of characters without upsetting the balance.
Allowing a higher PvP level players access to different temp powers, ideally they should be more difficult to use effectively, you again give a reward that does not upset balance but instead give new things a player can do.

This is just about PvP levels and what they provide to players. This does not remove any other more immediate and temporary rewards PvP can offer.

(Continued)

Brainbot
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Multiple types of PvP

Multiple types of PvP encounters such as capture the flag, king of the hill, protect/destroy and so forth.

This is, IMO, a no brainer. Just standing in a circle and beating on each other is the most basic of PvP and I think there should be a lot of other types.

These can include Capture the Flag, King of the Hill, Defend/Destroy and many more. It can also include some elements of MOBA dsigned in some ways.

One thing that should be said in relation to this is that Zone PvP and Event PvP are not the same. While Zone PvP can have more complex 'goals' to its PvP, Zone PvP is and should be a chaotic no rules environment. Those who want to PvP but want structure to their PvP should go to the Events. To clarify in case of confusion, Event PvP can be initiated by players and devs alike. It's just a term for a structured PvP match and not to denote its importance.

Event PvP is used to set up instances where only those players join at the begining can participate. It should have the maximum amount of options for sine tuning the event as possible. These can include how many per side, if character swapping is allowed, the use of temp powers (or exclusion of just a few specific ones), level requirements or limits, what the contest goals are and any other element players can think of (within reason of course).

So there you have it.
A separate PvP system that I think would solve issues I have with MMO PvP. Due to its more balanced design it would attract a better class of PvP player and would entice more players to engage in PvP.

(END)

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Constructive. Always nice

Constructive. Always nice when the first response is a troll.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

A separate PvP system that I think would solve issues I have with MMO PvP. Due to its more balanced design it would attract a better class of PvP player and would entice more players to engage in PvP.

What you're proposing here is a bit, well, drastic. That was probably the sentiment that Wolfgang8565's little pic was trying to convey.

You may actually have a generally "better idea" for computerized PvP buried in here somewhere. As long as you realize that most (if not all) of what you're talking about in this thread will NOT end up in CoT I have no problem talking about it as an abstract proposal.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Constructive. Always nice when the first response is a troll.

The table flip was a toned down reaction to your proposal, but if you want some kind of criticism I'll do my best.

There are so many things that would go wrong with this proposal and would make for a horrible experience imo. It's almost as if you want to take the freedom a PVP MMO provides and turn it into a fps like Halo.

1: Do not allow PvE characters access to PvP. Remove class, PvE level, PvE powers and gear from PvP entirely.

This is such a harsh restriction and I believe would turn away so many players. The freedom to have multiple builds allows a player to switch off between PvE and PvP willingly without having to create two separate characters. And removing their powers, and gear sounds more like a punishment. "if you want to play in this sandbox you have to play with our toys"

If I put in the time and effort to pick my powers and construct my gear I want that gear to be available wherever I feel like playing.

2: All PvP characters start with a base that players build on using a specific set of abilities, merits/flaws and temp powers.

Again, "you have to play with our toys"

~The pre-generated characters will be diverse and should include builds that reflect PvE classes, but as a function of the separate, classless PvP system will not be exact replications.~

Why take away one of the best parts of building a character in an mmo? People are smart enough to know what powers work and what don't in a PVP setting. We don't need to have predetermined abilities that are similar to the PvE version. You can trust us to figure it out give us some control.

You have some good ideas there, such as pvp zone vs pvp events, id definitely be ok with that. The rest, I agree with Lothic,is a bit drastic.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

You may actually have a generally "better idea" for computerized PvP buried in here somewhere. As long as you realize that most (if not all) of what you're talking about in this thread will NOT end up in CoT I have no problem talking about it as an abstract proposal.

Oh, I have no illusions about what I am suggesting. Like I said in another thread, what I want from MMO PvP is unlikely to be in any MMO.

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Deal breaker for me would be

Deal breaker for me would be the fact that if I can't take "my" character(s) into PvP then there is absolutely no point in PvPing. Primarily due to the fact that you point to - That there is absolutely no emotional connection between the player and the toon that the devs let you play in their isolated, imaginary, and unconnected existence. I'm only a casual PvPer. I would never waste my time in such a system.

The idea makes me think of Overwatch. I have no interest in playing MOBAs. If I did, I wouldn't care if CoT ever got made.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

The table flip was a toned down reaction to your proposal, but if you want some kind of criticism I'll do my best.

What you can a toned down reaction I call knee jerk, but I will get back to that.
You are free to offer criticism, but I would really prefer a discussion on it instead of your 'mind already made up without reading it' response.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

There are so many things that would go wrong with this proposal and would make for a horrible experience imo. It's almost as if you want to take the freedom a PVP MMO provides and turn it into a fps like Halo.

Nothing about my suggestion is FPS so I don't get the conclusion your drawing here.
Also, I can say that this system would not only make the game better but it would create world peace and cure cancer. Claims without explanations mean nothing. You need to do better.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

This is such a harsh restriction and I believe would turn away so many players. The freedom to have multiple builds allows a player to switch off between PvE and PvP willingly without having to create two separate characters. And removing their powers, and gear sounds more like a punishment. "if you want to play in this sandbox you have to play with our toys"

The reason why you are thinking it is a punishment is because you are thinking of PvE and PvP as a linked entity. That is precisely why I am suggesting they be clearly separated.
There are many games out there that have a distinct separation between PvE content and PvP content. In fact, MMO's are one of the few game types that do not draw that line.
You are free to believe it would turn away 'so many players' but I happen to think that a balanced system will draw in more players than attachment to character will turn away.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Why take away one of the best parts of building a character in an mmo? People are smart enough to know what powers work and what don't in a PVP setting. We don't need to have predetermined abilities that are similar to the PvE version. You can trust us to figure it out give us some control.

And this here is why I believe you had a knee jerk reaction and stopped reading to post an uneducated trollish response.
My system does have building a character.
Pre-generated characters are there to help initiate players into PvP and to provide a quick switch option when a players feels they need one.

If you want to discuss this system, or one of your own, feel free to join in. But if you have made up your mind to the point where nothing can ever sway you then you have already said your piece and can move on.

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Nyxz wrote:
Nyxz wrote:

Deal breaker for me would be the fact that if I can't take "my" character(s) into PvP then there is absolutely no point in PvPing. Primarily due to the fact that you point to - That there is absolutely no emotional connection between the player and the toon that the devs let you play in their isolated, imaginary, and unconnected existence. I'm only a casual PvPer. I would never waste my time in such a system.

Fair enough. But, if I may, I am going to ask you a loaded question here.
Do you consider PvP to be an important aspect of the game for YOU personally? What I mean is, How much of an impact on YOU would there be if the game had no PvP at all?

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"Nothing about my suggestion

"Nothing about my suggestion is FPS so I don't get the conclusion your drawing here."

My reference is to the point that in Halo, you log in, pick a character, a weapon, and jump into what is basically pvp. In an mmo, you can blend into a pvp zone with your own character, you don't have to pick a gear or a weapon that's predetermined. Its your own creation, the only difference is youre fighting another player instead of a computer.

"My system does have building a character."

Yes but who is going to want to put in the time to build a character for PvE, and then build a separate character with different predetermined abilities and gear and temp powers just for PVP. That's a lot more work than people are willing to do.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Nyxz wrote:
Deal breaker for me would be the fact that if I can't take "my" character(s) into PvP then there is absolutely no point in PvPing. Primarily due to the fact that you point to - That there is absolutely no emotional connection between the player and the toon that the devs let you play in their isolated, imaginary, and unconnected existence. I'm only a casual PvPer. I would never waste my time in such a system.
Fair enough. But, if I may, I am going to ask you a loaded question here.
Do you consider PvP to be an important aspect of the game for YOU personally? What I mean is, How much of an impact on YOU would there be if the game had no PvP at all?

Original response was consumed by the illustrious mapserver (ie having connection issues with Satellite). I will try to recreate my response at a future date.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

My reference is to the point that in Halo, you log in, pick a character, a weapon, and jump into what is basically pvp. In an mmo, you can blend into a pvp zone with your own character, you don't have to pick a gear or a weapon that's predetermined. Its your own creation, the only difference is youre fighting another player instead of a computer.

That's spurious. You are trying to equate the faceless nature of FPS PvP characters games with my system. This is because you STILL haven't taken the time to read what I have wrote.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Yes but who is going to want to put in the time to build a character for PvE, and then build a separate character with different predetermined abilities and gear and temp powers just for PVP. That's a lot more work than people are willing to do.

This may surprise you but there are people who only want to PvP. There are also people who would enjoy PvP more if it had a better balance to it and are willing to sacrifice the use of a PvE characters in PvP to maintain that balance. Those are the type of people who might want separate characters.
I must say I find it very funny and suspicious that you, someone who made these statements in another thread:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

The build you had always mattered, you cant go in with the exact build you PvE with

and

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

you should try to roll a build that works in PVP

Is now arguing against that idea.

Also, it would be nice if you made an attempt to understand how building a character would work in my suggestion.
You are not picking 'predetermined' abilities. You are picking a set of abilities and then choosing which of those you want to use, just like you do in PvE. You will 'build' your character just like you do in PvE with the difference being the only abilities available will be ones specifically designed for PvP, you won't have a class or gear, instead you will use a merit/flaw system to individualize a character, and you won't be required to spend a significant amount of time in PvE to be competitive in PvP. It's about giving players access to as many tools as possible while still maintaining a level playing field.

This is because the metric for balance in PvE is vastly different than the metric for balance in PvP. Trying to find that sweet spot middle ground balance that works for both PvE and PvP is not something I would wish on my worst enemy. And even if the devs did manage to find that mystical design balance that works for both PvE and PvP equally it still would not be perfect because both sides would have to sacrifice something to fit in the middle ground.

Like I said in the first posts, if the use of your PvE character in PvP is more important than the things my suggestion brings to the table then you are welcome to your opinion. To me balance in PvP is more important than if I can play my PvE hero in PvP.

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Nyxz wrote:
Nyxz wrote:

Original response was consumed by the illustrious mapserver (ie having connection issues with Satellite). I will try to recreate my response at a future date.

No problem. Like I said, it's a loaded question. I asked it only to provoke deeper thought into the importance of PvP to you. Respond whenever.

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So, basically you want every

So, basically you want every MMO to be a MOBA. You hate story. You hate lore. You hate context. You just want to bash heads.

I respect your honesty. I really do. But seriously, what you're asking for already exists: League of Legends and other MOBA are available in both PC and mobile phone versions. Why should City of Titans have two separate games: one MOBA and one MMORPG? Is it not more practical for someone like you to play a game designed for you?

I'm not trying to chase you off. It just seems to me that you're asking the devs to make two games at the same time when they are already under intense pressure to finish just one.

However, your honest design parameters do also raise the same question I have raised hundreds of times in this forum and others: if MOBA gameplay is, in fact, the best solution for PvP, why have PvP in a MMORPG at all? More specifically, why have PvP in this one?

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I'm not a PvPer, but I have

I'm not a PvPer, but I have PvPed (most recently in SWTOR that, ironically, made me better at PvE). I also don't like alt-ing that much and I never made much use of the multi-build option in CoH/V. I do have a tendency to fixate on a project until utter completion, and even then I will likely malinger before moving on to something else. Unless I'm conveying a story through my character(s) or there is a need for an alt in group content, such as for a raid, I usually won't roll a new one until I've been struck with clever inspiration.
All that being said, the fact that I can't bring my painfully crafted and previously leveled character into PvP is the biggest non-starter for me. I understand the idea of potentially leveling the respective playing field, skill and experience notwithstanding, and even agree to a minimal extent but it is definitely a no-go from me.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Balance. I find there is no way to truly balance MMO PvP. Between gear, power selection, level and class there are too many variables to give everyone a level playing field.

You say that there's no way to balance characters for MMO-based PvP because things like gear, powersets, class and level provide too many variables to deal with. Yet you propose to "fix" that by throwing out all the PvE versions of gear, powersets, class and level and REPLACE them with a completely new set of supposedly PvP oriented gear, powersets, class and level. Aren't you simply trying to fix a problem with renamed versions of the same problem? How are you going to keep your PvP versions of gear, powersets, class and level from ultimately becoming unequal and thus unbalanced?

If you want to perfectly balance one MMO PvP character versus another the only way that'll happen is if they are 100% clones of each other. By removing ALL the non-player variables you're left with whatever skill differences exist between two players. The downside of this is of course both players would have to play with perfectly identical characters. While that scenario (which in effect recreates a classic FPS) might be a fun experiment to try the novelty of that would soon wear off and it really couldn't be the basis of an entire MMO-based PvP game.

At least at one point you do mention what you call the "rock/paper/scissors measure of balance". I suspect that's the only real way to even approach balancing a MMO-based PvP game. As long as we're going to "complicate" the situation with having characters that have some form of gear, powersets, class and level (instead of the classically neutral FPS avatars) you're always going to have 1-on-1 imbalance. The only working compromise is to balance the situation based on multiple character engagements. A team of MMO-based characters facing another team of MMO-based characters have enough differing powers between them to counterbalance each other. The multiple classes form the rock/paper/scissors relationships that can collectively keep each other in check.

Greyhawk wrote:

However, your honest design parameters do also raise the same question I have raised hundreds of times in this forum and others: if MOBA gameplay is, in fact, the best solution for PvP, why have PvP in a MMORPG at all? More specifically, why have PvP in this one?

I suspect MMO PvP may never approach the simplistic perfection of either FPS or MOBA. It may actually be a valid question to ask if MMO PvP can ever be as workable as those other game formats. Perhaps the reality we have to accept is that there's really no such thing as "casual" MMO PvP - either you accept the idea that you have to heavily build your characters using the FotM PvP builds and totally dedicate yourself to min/maxing yourself for MMO PvP or you're just going to get ganked and have a sub-par experience with it. The handful of folks who were the extreme PvPers of CoH seemed to enjoy their little PvP haven so who's to say that absolutely NO ONE liked the way CoH's PvP worked?

The real question shouldn't be "should PvP exist at all in CoT". The real question is "did enough people enjoy the way MMO PvP worked in CoH to justify recreating that in CoT". It's a question of numbers - as long as the Devs of CoT think there will be enough old-school CoH PvPers in CoT they'll try to recreate that style of PvP in CoT.

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It appears as if the PvP idea

It appears as if the PvP idea suggested by the OP would be appropriate for an e-games experience of calibrated competitive balance.

It also appears as if it is not a natural extension of the City of Heroes MMO, but is rather a parallel experience using the same intellectual property.

I believe it is the latter which will have the specific denizens of these forums respond most negatively.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

It appears as if the PvP idea suggested by the OP would be appropriate for an e-games experience of calibrated competitive balance.

It also appears as if it is not a natural extension of the City of Heroes MMO, but is rather a parallel experience using the same intellectual property.

I believe it is the latter which will have the specific denizens of these forums respond most negatively.

That's kind of the point I tried to capture in my first post to this thread: This is an interesting idea in terms of abstract PvP proposals but I doubt it would ever be adopted as a direct part of CoT. Maybe as a standalone game that would be considered some kind isolated "spiritual successor" only to CoH PvP, not the entire game. *shrugs*

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TL;DR

TL;DR

Why not just take the PvP out of CoT completely and then make a new, separate, MOBA game with the same branding, etc and allow people to port their CoT toon avatar to the MOBA game for use strictly as an avatar?

Because if you want a fair, balanced PvP environment, I think Brainbot is correct that you won't accomplish that, truly, unless and until you give everyone the same exact deal up-front. Same powers, same equipment, same everything. At that point it's skill versus skill (and maybe to some extent your connection speed matters too), assuming you make the PvP maps symmetric so that nobody starts in a better or worse position than anyone else.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Why not just take the PvP out of CoT completely and then make a new, separate, MOBA game with the same branding, etc and allow people to port their CoT toon avatar to the MOBA game for use strictly as an avatar?

A generic superhero MOBA with avatars that'd be as customizable as what CoT's avatar builder should provide might be an interesting combo. Maybe that could be a standalone game that MWM works on -after- they launch CoT.

Radiac wrote:

Because if you want a fair, balanced PvP environment, I think Brainbot is correct that you won't accomplish that, truly, unless and until you give everyone the same exact deal up-front. Same powers, same equipment, same everything. At that point it's skill versus skill (and maybe to some extent your connection speed matters too), assuming you make the PvP maps symmetric so that nobody starts in a better or worse position than anyone else.

I would continue to argue that MMO PvP is actually already balanced around the team-oriented rock/paper/scissors concept. But yes, if you want 1-on-1 PvP balance then making a dedicated FPS or MOBA is probably your best bet.

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

So, basically you want every MMO to be a MOBA. You hate story. You hate lore. You hate context. You just want to bash heads.

This is a frustrating response. You start by throwing out accusations without explaining why you think that way. It leaves no room for discussion. I don't agree with anything in this part I quoted. If you want to discuss things then you need to answer a few questions.

How is this system a MOBA?

How does this system interfere with story or Lore?

If you don't want to discuss this and instead only wanted to express disapproval safe from response then you have done a good job.

Greyhawk wrote:

I'm not trying to chase you off. It just seems to me that you're asking the devs to make two games at the same time when they are already under intense pressure to finish just one.

Lets be fair.
I am not asking for two games. The same combat system, costume creator, models, map design, UI, chat, lighting, shaders and so forth are all the same. The only difference is a simplified character builder, some powers redesigned for PvP, a few PvP specific Temp powers and a PvP select screen. And if we are being honest, CoT is already going to have temp powers in PvP, some powers will be redesigned and the character screen/character builder are already designed so its just alterations on those. Basically what I am asking for is very little extra work and instead a refocusing of effort.

Greyhawk wrote:

But seriously, what you're asking for already exists: League of Legends and other MOBA are available in both PC and mobile phone versions.

I am sorry, but this is probably the least thought out response I have ever seen.
Ignoring the fact that your estimation of the system as a MOBA is one I don't agree with, you are basically saying that making any new games is pointless unless they invent a new genre.
Do you want to explain this further?

In case you feel I am being hostile to you because you disagree with my suggestion, let me assure I am not. I am just trying to have a fair discussion and I don't think you have been fair.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

All that being said, the fact that I can't bring my painfully crafted and previously leveled character into PvP is the biggest non-starter for me. I understand the idea of potentially leveling the respective playing field, skill and experience notwithstanding, and even agree to a minimal extent but it is definitely a no-go from me.

I can respect that. I knew going in that this would be the hardest part for some people to accept.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

You say that there's no way to balance characters for MMO-based PvP because things like gear, powersets, class and level provide too many variables to deal with. Yet you propose to "fix" that by throwing out all the PvE versions of gear, powersets, class and level and REPLACE them with a completely new set of supposedly PvP oriented gear, powersets, class and level. Aren't you simply trying to fix a problem with renamed versions of the same problem? How are you going to keep your PvP versions of gear, powersets, class and level from ultimately becoming unequal and thus unbalanced?

Sorry, but I have to correct you right off.
I am not saying replace PvE class, level gear with PvP versions of them. I am saying that class, gear and PvE level should not have a PvP version. Instead I am suggesting that the function of class, gear and PvE level (individualization) be represented in the merit/flaw aspect of PvP character creation. I can explain that further if you are confused about my meaning.

Lothic wrote:

If you want to perfectly balance one MMO PvP character versus another the only way that'll happen is if they are 100% clones of each other.

That is a logical end to my desires, true. But I think by designing abilities, merits/flaws and temp powers with the specific intention of offering as much balance as possible is far better than trying to turn PvE design into PvP design. My system isn't about a perfect balance designe, it's about designing for balance.

Lothic wrote:

The multiple classes form the rock/paper/scissors relationships that can collectively keep each other in check.

You again used the 'PvP gear, class and level' as part of this paragraph so I am just focusing on the relevant part.
This team based rock/paper/scissors balance is how MOBA games balance the variety of character/abilities they have. It serves them well and it certainly is a way to do it.
But I honestly think that balancing around teams is not the best way to balance PvP in MMO's, especially this one where specific role importance is promised to be minimized.
When you balance around a team dynamic you are setting an expected behavior for players into the design. When you balance around the individual you don't have an expected behavior.

Lothic wrote:

The real question shouldn't be "should PvP exist at all in CoT". The real question is "did enough people enjoy the way MMO PvP worked in CoH to justify recreating that in CoT". It's a question of numbers - as long as the Devs of CoT think there will be enough old-school CoH PvPers in CoT they'll try to recreate that style of PvP in CoT.

I actually think there are better questions to ask.
How do we improve the PvP experience in CoT? Will that 'improvement' bring in more players than it turns away?

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

It appears as if the PvP idea suggested by the OP would be appropriate for an e-games experience of calibrated competitive balance.

Yes, it does use some elements of competitive balance you find in E-Sports. I am not sure what your point is though.

Huckleberry wrote:

It also appears as if it is not a natural extension of the City of Heroes MMO, but is rather a parallel experience using the same intellectual property.

I believe it is the latter which will have the specific denizens of these forums respond most negatively.

Yup. It is a parallel experience. And, Yup, people are going to find that fact the most difficult to accept.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Sorry, but I have to correct you right off.
I am not saying replace PvE class, level gear with PvP versions of them. I am saying that class, gear and PvE level should not have a PvP version. Instead I am suggesting that the function of class, gear and PvE level (individualization) be represented in the merit/flaw aspect of PvP character creation. I can explain that further if you are confused about my meaning.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to stop taking your idea seriously from now on.

You may have bothered to RENAME or reassign the FUNCTION of things like class, gear and level as "merit/flaw aspects" (or whatever you're calling them) but these are serving the exact same purpose of making your PvP characters somehow functionally different from being 100% cookie-cutter clones. All you've done is replace what you call the "unbalancing" aspects of MMO PvP with a different system of "unbalancing" aspects. I can explain that further if you are still confused that you haven't really solved anything as much as created an equivalently unbalanced system.

If you want truly balanced 1-on-1 PvP go play a FPS or MOBA. Stop trying to "solve" MMO PvP by scraping the existing wheel and replacing it with another wheel.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

It appears as if the PvP idea suggested by the OP would be appropriate for an e-games experience of calibrated competitive balance.

Yes, it does use some elements of competitive balance you find in E-Sports. I am not sure what your point is though.

No point. Just an observation.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Why not just take the PvP out of CoT completely and then make a new, separate, MOBA game with the same branding, etc and allow people to port their CoT toon avatar to the MOBA game for use strictly as an avatar?

Ok, it seems many people are confused about what a MOBA is. A MOBA is a strategic battle arena. Much of those games revolve around setting troops into motion and using a player controlled character to bolster their efforts and hinder the opposing forces efforts.
The PvP in most MMO's is action based battles. Most of the combat is based around multiple separate engagements.

I am not suggesting that all the PvP in CoT follow a MOBA style of combat (which interestingly is an extension of RTS games). It might be an interesting combat style to include in PvP options but it shouldn't be the entirety of the content.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Ok, it seems many people are confused about what a MOBA is.

A MOBA is a game where the individual characters/avatars do NOT typically have unique builds or gear that can make them better/different than the individual characters/avatars that the other players are using. Even if such a game allows for individual advancement/augmentation it's usually the type that all the players involved can duplicate so in effect the only thing significantly determining the outcome of battle is player skill vs. player skill.

This kind of game exists in stark contrast to the typical MMO PvP. It's clear that you would prefer to somehow make the PvP of CoT work in the same kind of "build neutral" manner that games like FPSs and MOBAs do. This is why those other types of games are being mentioned in this thread.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

You may have bothered to RENAME or reassign the FUNCTION of things like class, gear and level as "merit/flaw aspects" (or whatever you're calling them) but these are serving the exact same purpose of making your PvP characters somehow functionally different from being 100% cookie-cutter clones. All you've done is replace what you call the "unbalancing" aspects of MMO PvP with a different system of "unbalancing" aspects. I can explain that further if you are still confused that you haven't really solved anything as much as created an equivalently unbalanced system.

I figured you would miss the point but gave you the benefit of the doubt.

If you can't understand that using PvE balance metrics for PvP results in an unbalanced PVP then your 'explanation' will probably be meaningless.

I am open to discussing alternatives to the ways I have suggested for balance. But claiming that 'specifically designing for PvP balance' is no different than 'designing for PvE balance and trying to shove it into PvP' has no merit.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

It's clear that you would prefer to somehow make the PvP of CoT work in the same kind of "build neutral" manner that games like FPSs and MOBAs do. This is why those other types of games are being mentioned in this thread.

If that is true, and I don't think it is why many are bringing it up, then they are confusing build neutral with starting from an equal footing.
Your build will matter and it will be functionally different than any other build that did not build exactly as you did. Just like a PvE character, your PvP character would be designed by you based on the choices available. It's just those choices have been specifically designed for PvP use.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

No point. Just an observation.

Alright.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

I figured you would miss the point but gave you the benefit of the doubt.
If you can't understand that using PvE balance metrics for PvP results in an unbalanced PVP then your 'explanation' will probably be meaningless.
I am open to discussing alternatives to the ways I have suggested for balance. But claiming that 'specifically designing for PvP balance' is no different than 'designing for PvE balance and trying to shove it into PvP' has no merit.

I get that you think that trying to shove anything PvE character build related into PvP is the fundamental root of all PvP evil in the world.

But in your high-minded attempt to create an entirely brand new world for PvP that's supposed to be devoid of all the taint spread by PvE all you've done is RECREATE an entirely brand new system of imbalance. Sure your system completely removes all traces of PvE class, gear, powersets, etc. but as long as any MMO PvP system has ANY feature or mechanic (no matter what clever new names you give them) that does anything to define or argument characters beyond 100% cookie-cutter clones you've automatically re-introduced elements of imbalance back into your new pristine system.

I'm sorry but despite your uniquely special penchant for self-delusion all you've done is scraped one arguably faulty system and replaced it with another.

Brainbot wrote:

Your build will matter and it will be functionally different than any other build that did not build exactly as you did. Just like a PvE character, your PvP character would be designed by you based on the choices available. It's just those choices have been specifically designed for PvP use.

In the words of the great master Yoda, "And this is why you fail." The fact that you set out to specifically design these things for PvP use is immaterial once the imbalance in your system becomes readily apparent. As soon as one person can make his/her character better than another's under ANY system you're back to square one.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I'm sorry but despite your uniquely special penchant for self-delusion all you've done is scraped one arguably faulty system and replaced it with another.

I am going to try and explain this one more time because you have a habit of instantly forgetting anything that wasn't said in the immediately preceding post.

I am not trying to create perfect balance. I have said that was a functional impossibility in a MMO PvP system.

I explained my issues with MMO PvP in the first post and designed a system which would address those issues.

What you are arguing is that I want a neutral system that is devoid of any advantages except for skill. You are partially right but the part you are wrong about is the important part.
The fact that everyone who enters PvP starts with the same tools puts more emphasis on the skill in PvP including the skill of building a PvP character.

This is where your misunderstanding leads you astray. While you continue to maintain I am replacing one unbalanced system for another you are missing that the goal is not total parity.
I am not saying that every ability should be equal. There are some abilities that are easier to use or are more applicable in a PvP setting than they are in a PvE setting. Using damage as a simplistic example, I don't want a fireball doing the same damage as a punch. Instead the determination for the damage of the fireball and punch should be made considering its use in a PvP setting. A melee punch is more difficult to use effectively in PvP than a ranged fireball and so the damage they do should reflect this.

Understanding the specific and very different challenges that require a specific and very different skill set for PvP is how you create balance among abilities in that arena. Using the PvE balance metric, which is born from understanding the specific and very different challenges in that arena, in PvP results in a system where abilities do not have balance.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brainbot wrote:
Ok, it seems many people are confused about what a MOBA is.
A MOBA is a game where the individual characters/avatars do NOT typically have unique builds or gear that can make them better/different than the individual characters/avatars that the other players are using. Even if such a game allows for individual advancement/augmentation it's usually the type that all the players involved can duplicate so in effect the only thing significantly determining the outcome of battle is player skill vs. player skill.
This kind of game exists in stark contrast to the typical MMO PvP. It's clear that you would prefer to somehow make the PvP of CoT work in the same kind of "build neutral" manner that games like FPSs and MOBAs do. This is why those other types of games are being mentioned in this thread.

To me, the classic example of a good MOBA that's popular right now is Overwatch. If Overwatch isn't a MOBA, then I apparently don't know what a MOBA is, and have been using the term wrong this whole time. That said, what Lothic said in the quoted block here matches my definition of a MOBA, for what it's worth.

That said, I still think the easier thing to do is make a clean break and just ask MWM to make a separate MOBA (or my idea of what a MOBA is) and not bother doing PvP in City of Titans at all. I personally would prefer that over trying to do PVE and PVP to everyone's liking in CoT. You could get double-duty out of a lot of the graphic assets, the avatar builder, some of the maps, etc that way, and even the unreal engine, probably. You just have to design a MOBA game with twitch and action in mind and either make all of the powers/builds the same or give people options like Overwatch does with different prototype champions, but let players do up the look and so forth themselves.

You could even have a subscription that applies to both games and have whole families where the mom and dad do the PVE game while the 15 year old buy gets his jollies dream-crushing others like him and then trolling them about it afterwards. :)

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

To me, the classic example of a good MOBA that's popular right now is Overwatch. If Overwatch isn't a MOBA, then I apparently don't know what a MOBA is, and have been using the term wrong this whole time. That said, what Lothic said in the quoted block here matches my definition of a MOBA, for what it's worth.

Overwatch is a team based shooter not a MOBA.

And if you are thinking that my system resembles the description Lothic gave then I hope you would go back and look at it again because it is not what Lothic is claiming it to be.

Radiac wrote:

That said, I still think the easier thing to do is make a clean break and just ask MWM to make a separate MOBA (or my idea of what a MOBA is) and not bother doing PvP in City of Titans at all.

Well, It's not really easier to do that and it would probably have a larger impact than you think.

See, making a new game requires another development team, even if that new game is very similar to this one. There is also the fact that a separate game requires separate servers, and maintenance. This is to say nothing of the reaction many players will have if they feel they are being asked to pay for something that was an expected feature.

While I agree that a separate game devoted to Super Hero PvP would be a lot of fun and that any system included with the MMO would pale by comparison, it would be detrimental to MWM to follow your clean break idea. That being said, I would be happy if they took that on as a second project.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

To me, the classic example of a good MOBA that's popular right now is Overwatch. If Overwatch isn't a MOBA, then I apparently don't know what a MOBA is, and have been using the term wrong this whole time. That said, what Lothic said in the quoted block here matches my definition of a MOBA, for what it's worth.

Yeah, you got it all wrong. A MOBA can not be defined by its acronym. Also known as a DOTA (after the eponymous Defense of the Ancients) it's a very specific type of amalgam of Real Time Strategy and arena PvP.
Basically it can be identified by three basic characteristics:
1. The two opposing armies have continuously and automatically generated and automated fodder soldiers
2. A number (usually three) of lanes down which the armies travel until they clash with each other.
3. The player plays a single hero unit in one of the armies, gaining strength by killing the opponent's fodder units, and eventually getting strong enough to challenge the other players and attempt to destroy the opposing base.

Overwatch is pretty much a straight up arena-style First-Person Shooter.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Back to the drawing board

Back to the drawing board BrainBot. No one seems to be going along with your idea.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Back to the drawing board BrainBot. No one seems to be going along with your idea.

Heh, no response to my last reply huh? I guess you are just trying to hide from the fact that your contradictions betray your true interest in PvP.

And, I am not surprised that people who have limited interest in PvP are less supportive. They have a different opinion on what they consider important. It doesn't make their opinion right any more than it makes mine wrong. It is opinion.
But designing a system for people who, by their own admission, have a passing interest in it is probably the dumbest design decision I can think of.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Radiac wrote:
To me, the classic example of a good MOBA that's popular right now is Overwatch. If Overwatch isn't a MOBA, then I apparently don't know what a MOBA is, and have been using the term wrong this whole time. That said, what Lothic said in the quoted block here matches my definition of a MOBA, for what it's worth.
Yeah, you got it all wrong. A MOBA can not be defined by its acronym. Also known as a DOTA (after the eponymous Defense of the Ancients) it's a very specific type of amalgam of Real Time Strategy and arena PvP.
Basically it can be identified by three basic characteristics:
1. The two opposing armies have continuously and automatically generated and automated fodder soldiers
2. A number (usually three) of lanes down which the armies travel until they clash with each other.
3. The player plays a single hero unit in one of the armies, gaining strength by killing the opponent's fodder units, and eventually getting strong enough to challenge the other players and attempt to destroy the opposing base.
Overwatch is pretty much a straight up arena-style First-Person Shooter.

Yeah this. Some people have their game definitions screwed up a little. Smite, Dota, League of Legends and the like are MOBAs. Overwatch exists in the same space as Team Fortress 2 and Paladins as FPS games.