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Resolve First ... or Animate First?

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Redlynne
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Resolve First ... or Animate First?

Crossposted from here at the request of Lin Chiao Feng involving ... this ...

The Unreal Engine is a Shooter Game engine. That means it is designed to handle Hit Box intercept equations and ... stuff. That means the game engine can run on a basis of targets not being "hit" until they are HIT ... meaning animate first, resolve after ... rather than the City of Heroes standard of resolve first, animate after.

Everyone with me so far?

One of the side effects that this kind of game engine would have is how it handles ranged combat ... specifically, how it would handle the projectiles used for ranged combat. This would then open up a very interesting realm of game balance possibilities, because it would be somewhat trivially easy to (at the development level) define ranged attacks that use animated projectiles as having both a Flight Speed and a Flight Time ... which in combination would compute to a range result. The important point I'm wanting to make here is that Range on Ranged Attacks would be a "computed characteristic" as opposed to being something "inherent" to the Powers themselves. The reason WHY that would be important will become apparent momentarily.

In a number of games, with Diablo II being the first one that I can recall, there are game mechanics that effectively work as a sort of "Slow Missiles" (which is what the Diablo II Amazon ability was called). What it does is create a "field" (think AoE) in which projectiles have their Flight Speed reduced ... which then makes avoidance of those projectiles potentially easier to do (because they're moving much more slowly) so as to prevent intersection of those projectiles with a character's Hit Box. Such a power effect is only possible in a game engine which relies on ... animate first, resolve after ... and use of Hit Boxes to determine which (typically ranged) attacks can do Damage to a Foe. Note that an interesting side effect of use of this ability in Diablo II by an Amazon involved an interaction with the Sorceress' Frozen Orb spell.

The way the Frozen Orb worked is that you had a central "ball" that shed shooting ice shard fragments out of it in all directions. The ball moved somewhat moderately quickly, but the shard fragments flew fast, and the ball just kept shooting out these shard fragments as it flew.

Now, in Diablo II PvP, it was normally a good idea for an Amazon to use Slow Missiles since it made it (relatively) easy to move to avoid projectiles with their Flight Speed reduced by 2/3rds ... but against a Sorceress with Ice Orb, it was effectively a Suicide Move! That's because although the Flight Speed of the Ice Orb would be slowed, as would the Ice Shards it was shedding (at a normal rapid rate) ... all of those projectiles would get "caught" in the Slow Missiles AoE and stack up to insanely lethal levels of saturation. The way that Slow Missiles inter(re)acted with Ice Orb in a PvP context then was to effectively concentrate the firepower into a slow moving wave of pure annihilation that could kill ANYTHING that touched it, simply because of the stacking that the Slow Missiles enforced.

I should also note that the same kind of "double edged sword" interaction occurred with Lightning Enchanted Bosses (LEBs) and the dreaded Multishot Lightning Enchanted Bosses (MSLEBs) where the lighting sparks that these Bosses would emit when hit by Player attacks could be slowed by the Slow Missiles ability of the Amazon ... resulting in the same kind of "slow rolling WAVES OF DEATH!!!" of concentrated Hatred™ that would kill you dead if any of it touched you because it was stack concentrated so much by the reduced Projectile Flight Speed modifier of the Slow Missiles AoE field. Meteors falling from the sky "took forever" to land (and explode) because they fell so slowly, and a bunch of other really ... interesting ... effects happened as a result.

The way that Diablo II handled Slow Missiles was as a Debuff applied on click of the ability in a PBAoE around the caster, effectively "marking" Foes for alteration of their Projectile Speeds for the duration of the ability. It was not an "aura" maintained around the caster, presumably because the Diablo II game engine couldn't handle variable projectile Flight Speeds once the projectile was in flight (we're talking 1999 game development here). However, the Unreal Engine is a heck of a lot more ... robust ... than Diablo II's game engine was, meaning ... it ought to be perfectly possible to modify the parameter for a projectile's Flight Speed while that projectile is in flight (*significant look of important idea being conveyed*).

So ... in a City of Heroes styled context ... what kind of powerset would be most appropriate for a Slow Missiles thematic effect?

/em looks meaningfully at Force Fields ...

Consider what would happen if Force Fields had a Power that effectively reduced Projectile Speeds by, say ... -90% (just for easy math and illustration purposes). So a projectile that moves 100 meters per second normally would move at only 10 meters per second inside the "force" field slowing that projectile down. If such an attack normally only had a Flight Time duration of 1 second, that would mean that normally that attack would have a 100 meter range ... but inside the Force Field "slow" effect, that same attack would have only a 10 meter range! But that range reduction doesn't occur because the "caster" of the attack has been affected ... it happens because the projectile "carrying" their attack has been debuffed.

Note how this sort of mechanic is something that would give a Force Field powerset a "range advantage" against opponents ... up to an including the possibility of making ranged attacks travel "so slowly" as to make them easy to step around/dodge in a sort of "bullet time" fashion. At the same time, this wouldn't necessarily be an advantageous thing to have in all circumstances due to the danger of being on the receiving end of saturation attacks (such as the aforementioned Ice Orb and Lightning Enchanted Boss situations seen in Diablo II) in which a slowing of Flight Speeds could result in damage concentration that is detrimental to survival.

My main thought is that doing something like this in Force Fields is something that ought to be a PBAoE Aura toggle, making it an effect that moves with the character generating the field ... although an alternative variation could be to cast it on a Target Location area, so as to generate an "obstacle" for enemy ranged attacks to pass through. The enhanceable aspects of the Debuffing could involve increased slowing of projectile Flight Speed(s), increasing the "bubble" radius of the effect itself (thereby costing more Flight Time to penetrate the effect relatively speaking), as well as being able to increase the distance away from the caster that the effect can be cast (ie. the Range).

The thing that makes all of this possible (and reasonable) to do, however, is ... a Shooter game engine that animates first, and resolves after, by making contact with Hit Boxes.


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Tannim222
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Its one of the discussions we

Its one of the discussions we will eventually have internally. Please remember, just because the engine is good for fps does not mean we are going to emulate that type of play .One thing to note is the base line of game play is avoiding twitch (move to dodge) which is really what the calc on contact with hit box is most useful for. (Not stating this specifcally to what Redlynne's idea, but just as a reminder because the mention of FPS may cause people to leap to the conclussion twitch play is being recommended).

This mechanic can essentially be considered a debuff on the attack projectile itself. Where say in the example of Force Field is a power effect which provides extra defense mitigation by slowing the projectile, reducing either its impact velocity (damage), or to simulate the attack missing due to the slow rate of the projectile moving. For those more familiar with CoH and less familiar with this, think of it this way (not saying this is how it will work only an example); You click your attack, the attack fires calculating that you should hit, But then the projectile fired itself is affected altering the calculation. The reasoning on performing the initial hit calc is to determine if the hit animation should be played of if the attack missed altogether (there are some other aspecs we are considering which may or may not require an initial calc). Possible complications come down to resources in how many different combat processes we will want running at all times. It is something we've brought up already internally and is on the look out for list when we get to such things. No promises, YMMV, subject to change and so on.


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Doesn't this concept rely on

Doesn't this concept rely on a more twitch based combat system?

I don't mind being able to get out of the effect radius of an AoE that takes time to go off (tier 9 nukes and the like). I do mind the twitchyness of dodging direct fire attacks (ice bolt).

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I specifically cited an

I specifically cited an example which has nothing to do with the player being required to move out of the way of the projectile. And specfically stated base game play is to avoid designing around twitch requirements.

The system still handles the aspect of whether the projectile hits or doesn't. What is different here is instead of say (just as an example) a negative effect is applied to the caster of a ranged attack which can cause them to miss, there is a negative effect is applied to the projectile itself when it enters within range of the negative effect. That is not to say there won't be one or the other (effect on caster, effect on projectile). Whether or not this is absolutely necessary or not, where on the priority list of resources this falls under is something we will have to look out for.


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Twisted Toon wrote:
Twisted Toon wrote:

Doesn't this concept rely on a more twitch based combat system?

/em headdesk


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Twisted Toon wrote:
Twisted Toon wrote:

Doesn't this concept rely on a more twitch based combat system?
I don't mind being able to get out of the effect radius of an AoE that takes time to go off (tier 9 nukes and the like). I do mind the twitchyness of dodging direct fire attacks (ice bolt).

Actually, the concept itself *doesnt* rely on a more twitch based combat system.

What it *can* be used for is something along these lines.

1) Animate the attack/projectile moving towards the target
2) When it arrives at the destination, that is when all of the to hit rolls/resistances/dodges etc etc happen.

Would this allow more of an active combat system? Yes, yes it would.

Does this mean that the combat system would be more active? No, no it doesnt. But it does mean that a more active combat system would be possible if the developers wanted it (even if its just for a class).

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Tannim, to address your point

Tannim, to address your point ... it is perfectly possible to run City of Titans on a "shooter engine" involving extremely fast projectile Flight Speeds (say ... 300+ meters per second) which in normal gameplay don't really offer a whole lot of opportunity for dodging, since the time delay between attack by caster and arrival of projectile on target is normally less than 1 second (and in a lot of cases ought to be 0.3 seconds or less). Essentially then, it would be perfectly possible to set up MOST Ranged Attacks as being very "fast" projectile Flight Speeds that essentially make the whole idea of a "twitchy dodge" response effectively moot thanks to the speed differentials (ie. you can't move far enough, fast enough to get out of the way). That means that for the vast majority of combats, the fact that everything is running on a "shooter engine" is masked by the fact that there isn't a meaningful "be elsewhere by the time the projectile arrives" option available ... yielding a gameplay experience substantially similar to (and I'm going to use the term "EMULATE" again here for a reason) City of Heroes because it effectively emulates how City of Heroes played out.

But then, because you're running on a "shooter engine" core, you'd be able to implement things like this idea I've got here, where the projectiles can have their Flight Speed debuffed within defined areas, ala Force Fields of "slowing force" (just pick your Fluff Text). If you do a 10:1 slowing like I suggested (for ease of math reasons), things could get very interesting very fast, opening up new gameplay opportunities that depend on tactical positioning. Consider that most rifle rounds ought to be moving at 1000 meters per second muzzle velocity (if not more), and that most pistol rounds ought to be moving at 250 meters per second or more, if using real world numbers, and I think you can see that there's an awful lot of leeway for being able to have of lot of "fast" projectiles, and where "bullet time dodging" of them could potentially become possible within a Force Field Bubble ... but making that "happen" be up to the resourcefulness of the Player it terms of mobility.

Also consider the fact that using a "shooter engine" core and resolving combat via Hit Boxes means that you would be able to vary the Flight Speed and Flight Time of projectiles as an independent variable for powersets(!). So in other words, the ranged attacks of Blasters fly "faster" to their targets than the exact same attacks used by Defenders, for example, increasing overall Range potential. Or you could set things up in a tradeoff, such that Blasters have faster Flight Speeds while Defenders get longer Flight Times on their respective projectiles, such that the maximum range of each is effectively the same, but Blasters are "quicker" and Defenders are more "persistent" as far as this behavioral differences are concerned. That way, even though you reuse a powerset in multiple archetypes, the base archetype using the powerset "matters" beyond mere questions of Damage potential and Endurance+Recharge and Accuracy.

Definitely a Try Before You Buy sort of deal, but also a possibility that is well worth exploring, methinks, simply because it could generate some very compelling gameplay.

Note that melee attacks would be completely unaffected by such a Force Field effect, as would "teleporting" type effects and a range of other options, so it wouldn't exactly be a universal IWIN! button, by any means, even at a 10:1 Flight Speed reduction.


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Lin Chiao Feng
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

/em headdesk

Red, please note that that response is 0% helpful and 100% offensive. It could be deleted in its entirety at no loss to the thread. Note Gangrel's response, which is quite useful and isn't insulting.

Also, when a dev says something like...

Tannim222 wrote:

It is something we've brought up already internally and is on the look out for list when we get to such things. No promises, YMMV, subject to change and so on.

A reply on the lines of "OK, thanks for the response, let us know what you work out later" is a lot better than "but you don't understand your own game engine, here let me show you". Because they don't want to deal with this right now and your insistence isn't going to change that.

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This makes things more

This makes things more interesting as well because you can now have a debuff on the attack that the attacker doesn't know about because it only effects attacks that come in range of the debuff.

Also, the mention of "bullet time" makes me hope that if something like this did get implemented it would be included in some melee sets.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Tannim, to address your point ...
But then, because you're running on a "shooter engine" core, you'd be able to implement things like this idea I've got here, where the projectiles can have their Flight Speed debuffed within defined areas, ala Force Fields of "slowing force" (just pick your Fluff Text). If you do a 10:1 slowing like I suggested (for ease of math reasons), things could get very interesting very fast, opening up new gameplay opportunities that depend on tactical positioning. Consider that most rifle rounds ought to be moving at 1000 meters per second muzzle velocity (if not more), and that most pistol rounds ought to be moving at 250 meters per second or more, if using real world numbers, and I think you can see that there's an awful lot of leeway for being able to have of lot of "fast" projectiles, and where "bullet time dodging" of them could potentially become possible within a Force Field Bubble ... but making that "happen" be up to the resourcefulness of the Player it terms of mobility.

If it comes down to players within the slow projectile bubble must move in order to effectively avoid getting hit, this is a twitch requirement even if it is slow, and probably not going to be part of the main part of the game. Part of no twitch as a base game play element is avoiding situations where a in order to receive the benefit of a buff the player must react. And before anyone decides to mention it; avoiding patches as has been brought up in other threads is something else entirely and to be used very judiciously.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I specifically cited an example which has nothing to do with the player being required to move out of the way of the projectile. And specfically stated base game play is to avoid designing around twitch requirements.

I know you did. But, due to limitations of the Forum's reply for first posts, it wasn't showing that I was responding to Redlynne's post and not yours. I shall endeavor to indicate who I am responding to in my posts if I can't easily quote the person I am responding to.

The way her post came across, to me, it sounded like a power that would assist in a player manually dodging an incoming attack. That might not have been how she intended it, but that was the way it looked, to me.

Redlynne wrote:

Twisted Toon wrote:
Doesn't this concept rely on a more twitch based combat system?
/em headdesk

I would like to thank you for an enlightening response to the question.

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My reaction on seeing this


My reaction on seeing this thread is that, if the FPS engine is used to determine hit/miss and slow shots are no longer allowed to chase targets around corners, slow dumb projectiles would become unworkable even with AI aimbot assistance. Maybe they could be buffed in some way to balance out the likelihood that the target will have left by the time they arrive?

Oh, well, it's not like knives and tomahawks were common player character weapons in CoH. Edit: Torso-sized boulders were very common player projectiles. Replace with head-sized boulders moving at ludicrous speed?

As for twitch gaming, this slowing of projectiles combined with an entirely computer controlled dodging animation can be the visual SFX of an attack that was made to miss by the Dispersion Bubble. It would be similar to the dodge animation that sometimes played in CoH in response to a miss, where the character model tilts its head or twists its body slightly in response to an incoming attack. Or maybe I haven't thought this through very well.

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Twisted Toon wrote:
Twisted Toon wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
I specifically cited an example which has nothing to do with the player being required to move out of the way of the projectile. And specfically stated base game play is to avoid designing around twitch requirements.
I know you did. But, due to limitations of the Forum's reply for first posts, it wasn't showing that I was responding to Redlynne's post and not yours. I shall endeavor to indicate who I am responding to in my posts if I can't easily quote the person I am responding to.
The way her post came across, to me, it sounded like a power that would assist in a player manually dodging an incoming attack. That might not have been how she intended it, but that was the way it looked, to me.

That may have been the effect in the original game, but since City lacks that mechanic, it would not apply.

I see that such a 'slow field' would force the 'projectile' to re-calculate trajectory and to-hit probability and that even Casual, let alone tactical movement on the part of the player could cause a clean miss. Further, if the Character had some form of Defense, then the continual re-calculation of hit-probability almost guarantees a miss, even if the player does nothing.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

If it comes down to players within the slow projectile bubble must move in order to effectively avoid getting hit, this is a twitch requirement even if it is slow, and probably not going to be part of the main part of the game. Part of no twitch as a base game play element is avoiding situations where a in order to receive the benefit of a buff the player must react. And before anyone decides to mention it; avoiding patches as has been brought up in other threads is something else entirely and to be used very judiciously.

I should point out that the answer to this point isn't as cut and dried as it might at first appear at a cursory glance.

First of all, I would consider it entirely possible (dependent upon how the Force Field Power gets built) for the Slow Field to effectively "expire" the Flight Time of a projectile attack before the projectile reaches its target destination. Whether this happens routinely or not would be a game balance consideration, but the simple fact of the matter is that the basic construction of how the concept "works" would enable such an outcome to be possible.

A 200 meter per second Flight Speed projectile is fired from 100 meters away (to make the math and illustration easy) for a normal max range of 200 meters. At 20 meters out from the target (who is projecting the PBAoE Slow Field bubble aura), the projectile enters the debuff bubble and slows down to 20 meters per second. The projectile has a maximum Flight Time duration of 1 second. Flight time across 80 meters is 0.4 seconds. Upon entering the Slow Field bubble, the projectile has only 0.6 seconds of Flight Time remaining, and at 20 meters per second (debuffed) Flight Speed it can only penetrate the bubble to a depth of 12 meters. The character standing 20 meters deep in the center of the Slow Field is "too far away" for the attacker's ranged attack to "reach" them through the Slow Field. The target doesn't need to move because the attack never reaches them. The attacker either needs to move closer or use a longer ranged attack to hit the character projecting the Slow Field aura.

A 1000 meter per second projectile is fired next, from 100 meters away and has a maximum Flight Time of 0.3 seconds for a normal max range of 300 meters. At 20 meters out the Slow Field bubble debuffs the incoming projectile. The projectile took 0.08 seconds to reach the bubble field, at which point it is slowed to 100 meters per second. The (debuffed) projectile crosses the 20 meter radius of the Slow Field in 0.2 seconds ... hitting the target in the center in a total Flight Time of 0.28 seconds (with 0.02 seconds to spare!).

Now ... both of the two above examples presume that there is no Range Penalty To Accuracy, such that a shot at point blank range (ie. melee) is just as accurate as a shot taken from the extreme edge of an attack's range. This need not be the case. Indeed, it should be perfectly possible to set up a Range Penalty To Accuracy and key it to Flight Time Elapsed ... such that the longer it takes an attack to reach its target, the less Accurate that attack becomes. Put that kind of mechanic into play with a Slow Field and you wind up with what effectively works as a "Range IS Defense" behavioral result, such that even if the target stands perfectly still and lets the projectiles hit them without trying to move (assuming they penetrate the Slow Field sufficiently to do so), the "accuracy" of all of those shots would be degraded relative to what would be the case if the Slow Field WASN'T present.

In other words, with a "shooter" game engine you can actually deliver on the Blaster Promise of Range Is Defense that City of Heroes never managed adequately, and you can set up Force Field Defense vs Ranged Attacks in a way that actually accomplishes that result via a Slow Field that debuffs the incoming attack projectiles rather than debuffing the attackers personally ... and without buffing allies/friendlies directly. This makes the game much more tactical/mobile and places an interesting requirement of situational awareness and responsibility into the hands of the Player. Also note that in this context, you could truly make the "Blaster" Archetype the "real shooters" who have a bias towards higher Accuracy, higher Flight Speeds and slightly longer Flight Times (netting greater Ranges) than other Ranged Archetypes, giving "Blasters" what amounts to a Range Advantage over other Archetypes ... once again feeding into the notion that Range IS Defense for a "Blaster" in City of Titans.

Additionally, this sort of Slow Field would be keyed to affect Foe projectiles only ... meaning your own Team can use the AoE of the bubble to their advantage, so as to (in effect) "outrange" their opposition at equal distances, giving an advantage to the Force Field protected Team. It means that the role of "bubbler" becomes one of staying "forward" of the friends and allies you are protecting, since depth of penetration into/through the Slow Field is an important consideration for how "effective" it is at negating/mitigating ranged attacks, and makes the entire playstyle of "being a bubbler" somewhat more aggressive and proactive than just turning on toggles and standing around while keeping your Team somewhere inside your bubble(s). But watch out! Because Slow Fields are the "natural prey" of Melee Archetypes, so "being in front" of everyone else is no guarantee of safety!

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And most of those dynamics and complexities of gameplay simply aren't possible (or are more difficult to do than absolutely necessary) if you're NOT running on a "shooter" engine core that is EMULATING a non-twitchy gameplay environment. This is why I posed the question that is the title of this thread ... Resolve First ... or Animate First?


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

...avoiding patches as has been brought up in other threads is something else entirely and to be used very judiciously.

We'll be able to avoid patches? You mean if something comes along like ED we will be able to choose not to download it? :-D

Seriously, thanks for weighing in as a redname and giving us insight into the mindset on this at MWM.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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There should be no problem

There should be no problem with a player with a particular buff like an aura shield moving up to nearby team mates to provide a buff. However if players within the buff benefit more from movement than those that don't, it hinges in making the benefit of the buff better only if you move, so its always better to move to lessen a negative effect in some form. That's basically requiring twitch movement for better game play. At least its something that may be considered as such. It's been brought up and its on our radar.

The question came up about ducking around corners and other obstacles to avoid projectiles / ranged attacks during our conversation of ranged combat and tracking projectiles. Many of us like it, there's a lot of related issues to consider when it comes to this. One of the things we count on the plus side is that this could work against players should the A.I. take cover as well. This of course may make single target ranged builds have some trouble with encounters, depending on what other tools they may or may not have. As such is another one of the issues worth considering.


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Do I understand correctly

Do I understand correctly that what Redlynne proposes is a rather complicated system for range debuffing (by increasing the effective distance)
I doubt that this "slow missile" effect would be widespread, leaving your apparent conclusion that it would solve all problems (I know you did not say so, but especially the way you wrote give an impression into that direction), as it just would not be that significant for the game at large.

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Xnarl wrote:
Xnarl wrote:

Do I understand correctly that what Redlynne proposes is a rather complicated system for range debuffing (by increasing the effective distance)

Insofar as how the Slow Field would "work" it basically (at the game mechanical level) would operate as a "range modifier" that increases the "effective" distance to target ... yes.

Xnarl wrote:

I doubt that this "slow missile" effect would be widespread, leaving your apparent conclusion that it would solve all problems (I know you did not say so, but especially the way you wrote give an impression into that direction), as it just would not be that significant for the game at large.

There's also the fact that I was deliberately picking relatively "extreme" examples of what the settings for it could be so as to easily illustrate the principles of the operation and game mechanics at work. A lot of the "settings" could be rather easily adjusted ... such as the radius of the Slow Field, the Flight Speed debuff level (I was using -90% because it made the math easy and obvious, but it could be set to be only -70% in actual gameplay for example) so there's a lot of "leeway" as far as being able to get the balance right. And no, it would not solve ALL problems ... but the structure I've proposed, even if the actual "settings" I mention don't get used, would go a long way towards resolving a great many potential problems. There would still be edge cases (aren't there always?) ... such as a "superspeeder" with super fast mobility running a Slow Field (ie. "The Flash" dodging around bullets just because he moves so fast). So it wouldn't be a solution to everything, but it would contribute to solving "a lot" of situations and circumstances.

Consider that in City of Heroes, the Dispersion Bubble Power only had a radius of 25 feet ... which is about 7.6 meters. In my "napkin math" examples, I was using a Slow Field radius of 20 meters, which obviously makes a pretty big difference, simply to make the math of my examples easier for illustration purposes, not because I believe that's where the Balance Point ought to lie.

As for whether the system I'm proposing is "complicated" really depends on how the fundamentals of the game engine handle combat. It's entirely possible that for the Unreal Engine, everything I've mentioned as far as functionality goes is a "trivial" concern because the game engine already provides these services and makes use of these parameters in order to make gameplay possible in the first place. In other words, use the tools already provided and at your disposal to make this happen, rather than designing custom new tools and approaches.

The thing is, it still comes down to a question of ... do you resolve everything about an attack before animating it ... or not? If you do resolve the attack before animating it, you wind up with "homing projectiles" that can exhibit funny behaviors (or at least, what look like funny behaviors when viewed on a game client) and where you can't have "intervening obstacles" influencing the results between the attacker and the target, aside from the Line of Sight issue, which can create some "weird" edge cases of its own.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

There should be no problem with a player with a particular buff like an aura shield moving up to nearby team mates to provide a buff. However if players within the buff benefit more from movement than those that don't, it hinges in making the benefit of the buff better only if you move, so its always better to move to lessen a negative effect in some form. That's basically requiring twitch movement for better game play. At least its something that may be considered as such. It's been brought up and its on our radar.

Best answer I can give to this particular point is ... it depends. Sometimes movement would be beneficial ... sometimes it would make no difference whether or not a ranged attack could connect with its intended target. I agree with you that setting things up such that mobility is REQUIRED in ALL cases to avoid being hit by ranged attacks, thereby offering an opportunity to negate their effects entirely, would be poor choice and a mistake to make. However, at the ranges and "timing" of attacks that I gave in my examples, I think it ought to be fairly clear that Slow Fields of 10 meters or less in radius wouldn't offer that much of an advantage in terms of "use mobility to avoid" unless if you did something pretty radical ... such as getting rid of Flight Time entirely (so projectiles fly indefinitely until they hit something) and setting up the Flight Speed reduction to being something like -99% so as to provide a 100:1 reduction in Flight Speed, allowing characters to "step around" flying projectiles with little difficulty because they've been slowed down so dramatically.

So I do believe that there is a region of "settings" in which a Slow Field could be done in such a way as to not enforce a "twitchy movement to dodge" functionality. The edge case for that would be a superspeeder with a Slow Field protecting them, where the combination of relative speeds (faster moving target, slower moving projectiles) creates a "hard to hit" set of conditions ... which is entirely appropriate to the comic book genre and character concept for this sort of thing. The trick is managing to prevent such a combination from resulting in an "impossible to hit" set of conditions ... which I believe can be done adequately.

Tannim222 wrote:

The question came up about ducking around corners and other obstacles to avoid projectiles / ranged attacks during our conversation of ranged combat and tracking projectiles. Many of us like it, there's a lot of related issues to consider when it comes to this. One of the things we count on the plus side is that this could work against players should the A.I. take cover as well. This of course may make single target ranged builds have some trouble with encounters, depending on what other tools they may or may not have. As such is another one of the issues worth considering.

Not only am I TOTALLY in favor of Foe NPC AI ducking around corners and breaking Line of Sight so as to "take cover" and avoid incoming damage, I'm even in favor of going so far as to incorporate the Tabula Rasa game mechanic of "Cover" which relies of computation of the degree of obscurement of the target's Hit Box from the attacker's location. The net result of using a Cover mechanic is that it is advantageous for Players to "make use of terrain" so as to expose only a portion of their Hit Boxes to an enemy, leading to a tactical advantage for Ranged attackers that is not available to melee attackers. Since such a Cover mechanic only works when using Hit Boxes and ray tracing from attacker to target (which "shooter" game engines do in order to be playable at all), you can fairly say that I have more than one reason for wanting to see City of Titans built on a "shooter" game engine base ... even if the resulting gameplay is deliberately designed to NOT reward split second reaction speeds and "twitchy" user interactions.


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I meant complicated in the

I meant complicated in the sense of "complicated for the player", not in the sense of "complicated for the computer", since I would in no way have the experience necessary to estimate this.
"[B]ut the structure I've proposed [...] would go a long way towards resolving a great many potential problems." I fail to see the problems you want to solve - even with your examples given above. And to me, your "solution" seems to depend not just on the slowing mechanic, but on it being universal.

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Xnarl wrote:
Xnarl wrote:

I meant complicated in the sense of "complicated for the player", not in the sense of "complicated for the computer", since I would in no way have the experience necessary to estimate this.
"[B]ut the structure I've proposed [...] would go a long way towards resolving a great many potential problems." I fail to see the problems you want to solve - even with your examples given above. And to me, your "solution" seems to depend not just on the slowing mechanic, but on it being universal.

Actually, if you extend something like this (which gives an interesting effect to Projectiles and how they can be interacted with), to other abilities, it can help remove the "laggy heal" effect, where the heal animation is *faster* than the projectile travelling to the target.

*shrugs* Hell, with the animate first - resolve later setup, it means that you can do something *in reaction to* the enemy/player doing something, instead of having to *guess* what they are going to do.

Sure, DOT/AOE persistent effects will "go around" this effect, but that is because they are normally not front loaded for damage/effects (at least in CoX).

Here is a theoretical problem:

Slow moving projectile towards a friendly player (doesn't have to be you).

In COX, buffing the player before the projectile hits him provides NO net benefit to the player.

With the proposed change, you could *buff* the player before it hits, and give him some protection (spot buffing/healing/call it what you will),

Please note: This *doesnt* prevent you from buffing the player *before* the attack was even started, but it does mean that you *dont* have to anticipate an attack to make sure that they survive.

As Redlynne has suggested, it also gives the developers another avenue for balancing ranged abilities as well (flight speed/flight duration).

And this wouldn't be the first game that has balanced ranged weapons like this.

Case in point: Eve Online has 4 different types of ranged weapons. Hybrid Weapons (think rail guns), Projectile (think heavy artillery shells), Lasers (need I say more) and Missiles.

3 of those have *no* travel time to take into consideration when balancing, because they are effectively "insta hit". (Projectile, hybrid and laser).

Missiles are balanced with flight time/duration (as well as explosion speed and radius), so whilst you *can* outrun a missile, you have to spend more time doing it (up to 30 seconds per "volley of missiles). To avoid hybrid/projectile/lasers you just have to be travelling around the the firing ship *faster* than it can track you.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Not only am I TOTALLY in favor of Foe NPC AI ducking around corners and breaking Line of Sight so as to "take cover" and avoid incoming damage, I'm even in favor of going so far as to incorporate the Tabula Rasa game mechanic of "Cover" which relies of computation of the degree of obscurement of the target's Hit Box from the attacker's location. The net result of using a Cover mechanic is that it is advantageous for Players to "make use of terrain" so as to expose only a portion of their Hit Boxes to an enemy, leading to a tactical advantage for Ranged attackers that is not available to melee attackers. Since such a Cover mechanic only works when using Hit Boxes and ray tracing from attacker to target (which "shooter" game engines do in order to be playable at all), you can fairly say that I have more than one reason for wanting to see City of Titans built on a "shooter" game engine base ... even if the resulting gameplay is deliberately designed to NOT reward split second reaction speeds and "twitchy" user interactions.

While this sounds cool and realistic, to me it also sounds much more like a shooter I would want to play, not an MMO I would want to play. I have a hard time seeing this mechanic as feeling very superhero-y. Having two sides shoot at one another from behind cover doesn't sound like the type of fight I'd expect to see in a superhero milieu (well, except maybe for NPCs vs NPCs in Port Oakes.) I can definitely see enemies ducking behind cover to escape Cinnder's fiery blasts, but I definitely would not feel very super powered if Cinn, as a squishy ranged character, spent most of her time blasting from behind crates or around corners.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
Not only am I TOTALLY in favor of Foe NPC AI ducking around corners and breaking Line of Sight so as to "take cover" and avoid incoming damage, I'm even in favor of going so far as to incorporate the Tabula Rasa game mechanic of "Cover" which relies of computation of the degree of obscurement of the target's Hit Box from the attacker's location. The net result of using a Cover mechanic is that it is advantageous for Players to "make use of terrain" so as to expose only a portion of their Hit Boxes to an enemy, leading to a tactical advantage for Ranged attackers that is not available to melee attackers. Since such a Cover mechanic only works when using Hit Boxes and ray tracing from attacker to target (which "shooter" game engines do in order to be playable at all), you can fairly say that I have more than one reason for wanting to see City of Titans built on a "shooter" game engine base ... even if the resulting gameplay is deliberately designed to NOT reward split second reaction speeds and "twitchy" user interactions.

While this sounds cool and realistic, to me it also sounds much more like a shooter I would want to play, not an MMO I would want to play. I have a hard time seeing this mechanic as feeling very superhero-y. Having two sides shoot at one another from behind cover doesn't sound like the type of fight I'd expect to see in a superhero milieu (well, except maybe for NPCs vs NPCs in Port Oakes.) I can definitely see enemies ducking behind cover to escape Cinnder's fiery blasts, but I definitely would not feel very super powered if Cinn, as a squishy ranged character, spent most of her time blasting from behind crates or around corners.

I think the problem here is that you are looking at it from the point of view that this is all it *can* be used for.

I have given an example of how it *can* be used (and in a more reactionary instead of purely pre-emptive) fashion

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One of the things I am

One of the things I am personally curious to see is whether we have enough resources to effectively support both non-twitch and 'mild/light twitch' elements in the same game.

If it comes down to only one, I am in the non-twitch camp. But if we have enough overhead in terms of programming resources and such, it would be interesting to me to have things like 'skill shots' from League of Legends or a 'roll dodge' power that still respected PC or NPCs with a non-twitch based setup.

As was (sort of) mentioned previously, you could have a projectile that only checked to hit and what not if it overlapped your character and would not chase you; in return for this disadvantage such a projectile might do more damage or deliver a stronger secondary effect. You might choose to have a powerset that gave you a bonus on defense if you hit a button during the flight time of a projectile even if such a projectile has already determined that it is going to hit you.

Not as the main focus of the game, but as a gimmick of a given few powersets.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

I think the problem here is that you are looking at it from the point of view that this is all it *can* be used for.
I have given an example of how it *can* be used (and in a more reactionary instead of purely pre-emptive) fashion

True enough. We were typing at the same time.

kitsune9tails wrote:

Not as the main focus of the game, but as a gimmick of a given few powersets.

And that would fit with what Warcabbit has already said about combat being pretty much the same in CoT, but that MWM will explore new ideas with subsequent releases and see how the community reacts to them.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I feel the same way. I'd view
Cinnder wrote:

While this sounds cool and realistic, to me it also sounds much more like a shooter I would want to play, not an MMO I would want to play. I have a hard time seeing this mechanic as feeling very superhero-y. Having two sides shoot at one another from behind cover doesn't sound like the type of fight I'd expect to see in a superhero milieu (well, except maybe for NPCs vs NPCs in Port Oakes.) I can definitely see enemies ducking behind cover to escape Cinnder's fiery blasts, but I definitely would not feel very super powered if Cinn, as a squishy ranged character, spent most of her time blasting from behind crates or around corners.

I feel the same way. I'd view the need to deal with or constantly worry about such things as cover or NPCs that will alert their compatriots is a fairly fundamental change to the feel of the game. I don't mind if there is a mission or story arc that deals with enemies who make use of such features, but to have to deal with minions crouching behind cover constantly would get tiresome very quickly.

In addition, a cover mechanic would raise issues such as devaluing defensive sets and providing ground targeting or AoE attacks with too much prominence for attacking or flushing out enemies who are in cover.

Most attacks could be made to animate and travel/hit their target so quickly that the question of dodging it, or the attack 'following' the target, wouldn't be raised, but that would remove a lot of the flair. I prefer to keep the flair and thus resolve first. If that means the attack occasionally curves through the air or even around corners, so be it.

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for fear of derailing the

for fear of derailing the thread too much more:

A cover mechanic *doesnt* have to modify how easily a mob can be hit, it can be a purely flat "incoming damage reduction".

And you can set it up so that damage can only be reduced by 50% maximum (throwing numbers out my butt). SWTOR did this if i remember correctly for the "portable cover" (only a 20% incoming ranged damage reduction) mechanic that smugglers/agents had available to them.

Quote:

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2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
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Personally, a cover mechanic

Personally, a cover mechanic IMO would work best in 2 ways.

In Freedom Force, you CAN hit enemies that are behind cover but depending on the attack used and the item covering you, the cover will do one or two of the following:

Block the attack and make you miss your target but dealing damage to the cover in the process (eventually destroying it)
Get pushed back and (if it's strong enough) SLAM into the target
Do absolutely nothing and make the target get hit (applies only to attacks with a piercing perk, of which there are few)

This only applies if the cover, however, is actually in the line of your shot. Attacks from above or beside work as they usually do. It also does not apply if the target is hit with a ranged AoE because even IF the cover blocks it, you still have the area damage.

The OTHER way I prefer is the Jagged Alliance/XCOM way. In this way, cover is extremely necessary because it gives a major dodge buff to anyone behind it which increases with the type of cover used, making attacks against you harder to land and usually just hitting the cover (which is almost always invincible.. save for a few types or against certain weapons). Hiding behind an overturned table is a 25% buff, a crate might be 50%, and a train is 100%. The benefit though is that only one person can occupy this space at a time and again you can be flanked by attacking where the cover is not protecting... however smart players usually have guys watching this areas as well.

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I'd prefer resolve, then

I'd prefer resolve, then animate for most powers. Yes, it can give the homing boulder issue, which looked silly, unless we assume the character throwing it is just that good. And, well, it is a game of superpowers, so maybe he is.

But, I could see some powers work in the Summon Projectile, Impact, Resolve way. Like if an Archvillain does some huge slow moving energy ball attack to spice the fight up a bit. But that basically works like a damage patch, except it's mobile and explodes. Some player powers could work like this, too. Like ultimate blasts. Or mobile buff fields. It doesn't have to be one size fits all. Some powers might be appropriate for one, some for the other. But I think they should still resolve defense/resistance on impact.

But honestly, for a lot of powers, the order doesn't change much. Any gun attack will be so fast that it won't be visible to the player. I assume electric powers would be a direct shock, too.

Oh, if we do get explode on impact powers... can I request the Shock Combo? Launch slow moving energy ball, attack it with a direct blast. BOOM. It's an Unreal Engine classic, after all. Maybe Ball Lighting being one of these, then target the ball with a Lightning Bolt. Kind of like Oil Slick Arrow from CoH, except mobile.

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kitsune9tails wrote:
kitsune9tails wrote:

One of the things I am personally curious to see is whether we have enough resources to effectively support both non-twitch and 'mild/light twitch' elements in the same game.

For the purposes of definitions and understandings, I'd prefer to think of any sort of "proper twitch" gameplay as being something where reaction speeds of the Player need to be something that requires between 0.5-1 seconds of server time for the Player to act in response (typically dodging or blocking or whatever). That is something that I would say is effectively a "twitchy" style of gameplay due to the fact that it is theoretically possible for a Player on a low network latency connection to successfully "twitch reflex" fast enough to either intercept or avoid an incoming attack in a way that actively mitigates and/or negates that attack, which can also include movement of the Player's avatar. This is more of a rule of thumb than anything else in my way of thinking about this sort of thing.

Anything that calls for a "response reaction" within 1-3 seconds then effectively counts as being "fast gaming" but not necessarily "twitchy" due to the fact that the timing is more relaxed and not (literally) split second. Anything where you're given more than 3 seconds of time to formulate a response is effectively "luxuriously slow" in the decision making process. Note that in City of Heroes, most Powers animated in 1-3 seconds worth of time, although there were a few exceptions (aren't there always?).

This is why I contend that pretty much anything that happens in less than 0.5 seconds of server time is effectively "too fast to twitch respond to" in most circumstances, particularly once you account for lag losses in network latency. I say that because what's happening occurs just too fast to do anything about it before it actually gets resolved ... although as mentioned previously there could very well be some edge cases, most likely involving superspeed or other extremely high movement rates and attempting to "track" a target moving in a direction perpendicular to your shooting angle, necessitating a "lead your target" phenomenon so as to shoot at where your target WILL BE by the time the projectile arrives rather than where the target IS when you shoot at them. However, the "counter" to those superspeed conditions is to attack from closer to your target so as to minimize Flight Time and thus the available time window your target has to react or do something (even if that "something" is running in a straight line).

Thus my belief that ranged attacks which resolve themselves "fast enough" (ie. less than 0.5 seconds) effectively render the point of being "twitchy" irrelevant, thereby yielding a "non-twitchy" style of gameplay (until debuffed somehow).

Note that the Slow Field mechanic that I've been postulating does not modify Flight Times, meaning that so long as MOST ranged attacks use projectiles that have a Flight Time of 0.5 seconds or less, the entire "problem" of creating a "twitchy" style of gameplay gets substantially avoided. Not entirely avoided ... just substantially.

kitsune9tails wrote:

If it comes down to only one, I am in the non-twitch camp. But if we have enough overhead in terms of programming resources and such, it would be interesting to me to have things like 'skill shots' from League of Legends or a 'roll dodge' power that still respected PC or NPCs with a non-twitch based setup.

Agreed. I'm not angling to somehow sneak "twitchy" reaction speeds into City of Titans. Instead, I see the enabling of a more Player driven and dependent style of "manual" gameplay as being what amounts to an "advanced gameplay mode" that is entirely optional, with the more traditional Tab To Target functionality and services being what amounts to the "default" (and thus baseline) playing experience. However, for Players who want a more "intensive" or if you prefer "harder" playing experience that is more akin to a Third Person Shooter then the option to do so is there because of the underlying structure of how the combat system "works" under the hood. However, you'd still be dealing with a combat system in which Powers animate in no less than 1 second, with a substantial number of them animating in 2-4 seconds, and with most (not all, but most) projectiles having a Flight Time of no more than 1 second (with a substantial portion of them being less than 0.5 seconds). Projectiles that have a Flight Time of longer than 1 second would usually involve "hurled objects" such a hand grenades, knives, throwing axes, blocks of pavement (ala Super Strength Hurl) and so on, many of which could potentially wind up being affected by in-game gravity (producing parabolic flight arcs) if that was found to be desirable.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The question came up about ducking around corners and other obstacles to avoid projectiles / ranged attacks during our conversation of ranged combat and tracking projectiles. Many of us like it, there's a lot of related issues to consider when it comes to this. One of the things we count on the plus side is that this could work against players should the A.I. take cover as well. This of course may make single target ranged builds have some trouble with encounters, depending on what other tools they may or may not have. As such is another one of the issues worth considering.

Like so?

example:

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Izzy, that's a scenario that

Izzy, that's a scenario that only occurs if you have a basic setup of Animate First, Resolve After. Reason I say that is because the circumstances change after the projectile is launched, such that over time a condition where Line of Sight is clear when the projectile is launched becomes a condition of blocked before the projectile reaches its target. Thus you have a "homing" projectile which is still subject to Line of Sight rules along its entire path as it travels to its target.

If you had a Resolve First, Animate After engine going on, the wall would not block the projectile, because the Line of Sight issue was "cleared" when the projectile was fired/launched, meaning the projectile would simply pass through the obstacle as if it wasn't there and still hit the target.

Animate First, Resolve After is thus "sensitive" to additional factors that can exist between "here and there" when launching a projectile attack. One of my favorite examples of this phenomenon involves the use of Force Field "bubbles" (specifically a PBAoE like Dispersion Bubble) where the attacker is outside the bubble area and the target is also outside the bubble area, but the bubble area lies in between the attacker and the target, meaning the projectile ostensibly needs to "pass through" the bubble in order to travel from the attacker to the target.

In a Resolve First, Animate After game engine like City of Heroes had, the bubble field between the attacker and target is a complete non-issue. The simplification of the game engine is such that the only factors that matter are the buffs/debuffs on the attacker, and the buffs/debuffs on the target, and everything situational/circumstantial going on "between" the attacker and the target is just simply ignored. Every part of the resolution of the attack is made before anything concerning the attack is animated, so once the attack "happens" it's too late to do anything to modify the "results" of what that attack will do. Also known as the "you're already dead, you just haven't gotten the memo yet" phenomenon (broadly speaking).

In an Animate First, Resolve After game engine like most "shooter" games use, the bubble field between the attacker and the target could potentially be a very major issue determining whether or not the projectile reaches the target, and whether the projectile would hit the target with an accuracy comparable to what would have been the case if the bubble field were not present in the intervening space. So the "shooter" game engine cares more about what's going on in between the attacker and the target in a fashion that makes greater "realism" of situations and circumstances possible. In so doing, the game becomes more "tactically" oriented where positioning and relative movement can start to have an increased influence over how the game resolves attacks on targets ... even if the vast majority of projectile Flight Speeds are so fast that a "twitchy reflex" response to them is effectively impractical due to impossibly small split second timing (which network latency to server turns into a circumstance that effectively can't be overcome by default).

Furthermore, any kind of "Cover" game mechanic will require what amounts to a quick ray tracing check to determine how much of the target's Hit Box allows a Line of Sight between attacker and target, which in turn requires use of Hit Boxes at some level for such a calculation to even be made at all. Note that how the Cover game mechanic might work could be defined as either Defense (reducing Accuracy, increasing chance to MISS) and/or as Resistance (reducing damage throughput, increasing damage resistance). A relatively simple "threshold check" of 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% obscurement of the target Hit Box could be made, with a bonus to Defense and/or Resistance resulting from a look up table crosscheck. This then creates a behavioral incentive to do things like shoot around corners or over obstacles (think barrels, crates and cars) in such a way as to expose as little of a character's Hit Box to enemy ranged attacks as possible ... rather than just standing in the middle of the street/hallway blasting away simply because there's no reason NOT to attack from a totally exposed position due to the lack of any defensive incentive to "take cover" from hostile ranged attacks. Note that melee attacks, due to their short ranges, will almost never offer much (if any) sort of Cover defense due to relative positioning making obscuration of Hit Boxes at such short distances a relatively moot consideration (although there would still be some edge cases where it might apply).


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For the record, Tabula Rasa's

For the record, Tabula Rasa's "cover" mechanic computed eight additional "rays" from shooter to target, so as to make a 3x3 grid spread evenly across the target's hitbox. The total number of rays that were not blocked by terrain were used to compute cover level. IIRC, TR used cover level as a damage reduction effect, not a defense effect.

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Correct, I'd forgotten the

Correct, I'd forgotten the exact details. Also correct that Tabula Rasa modeled the mechanic on a Resistance rather than a Defense basis. Only thing I'd add to it is that Crouching (ie. "taking a knee" and immobilizing yourself) would effectively change the shape of your Hit Box, potentially altering how easy it would be to obtain a good Cover bonus depending on location and positioning.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

There should be no problem with a player with a particular buff like an aura shield moving up to nearby team mates to provide a buff. However if players within the buff benefit more from movement than those that don't, it hinges in making the benefit of the buff better only if you move, so its always better to move to lessen a negative effect in some form. That's basically requiring twitch movement for better game play. At least its something that may be considered as such. It's been brought up and its on our radar.
The question came up about ducking around corners and other obstacles to avoid projectiles / ranged attacks during our conversation of ranged combat and tracking projectiles. Many of us like it, there's a lot of related issues to consider when it comes to this. One of the things we count on the plus side is that this could work against players should the A.I. take cover as well. This of course may make single target ranged builds have some trouble with encounters, depending on what other tools they may or may not have. As such is another one of the issues worth considering.

The scenario that bugged me most went like this:
Step around a corner into aggro range of an unforeseen mob. Said mob turns, sees me, and insta-fires a ranged attack all int the same instant. I back pedal furiously but the shot gun blast follows me around the corner and hits anyway.

I just want there to be a little delay between "target recognition" and "attack." Like there's a little animation where the individual sees me and points; "Look out, it's WarBird!!" If I can get back around the corner before the "recognition" timer runs out, then I'm behind cover, and he has to chase me. Maybe he brings all his friends, maybe not.

I'd also prefer there be some kind of "perception cone" for mobs. That is, if none of the mobs happen to be looking my way when I stumble around a corner, they don't see me at all. Maybe not until I attack, even. Or the "idle" animations of one of them has them turn and notice me.

And I'm ok with my ranged attacks not chasing around corners either.

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
There should be no problem with a player with a particular buff like an aura shield moving up to nearby team mates to provide a buff. However if players within the buff benefit more from movement than those that don't, it hinges in making the benefit of the buff better only if you move, so its always better to move to lessen a negative effect in some form. That's basically requiring twitch movement for better game play. At least its something that may be considered as such. It's been brought up and its on our radar.
The question came up about ducking around corners and other obstacles to avoid projectiles / ranged attacks during our conversation of ranged combat and tracking projectiles. Many of us like it, there's a lot of related issues to consider when it comes to this. One of the things we count on the plus side is that this could work against players should the A.I. take cover as well. This of course may make single target ranged builds have some trouble with encounters, depending on what other tools they may or may not have. As such is another one of the issues worth considering.

The scenario that bugged me most went like this:
Step around a corner into aggro range of an unforeseen mob. Said mob turns, sees me, and insta-fires a ranged attack all int the same instant. I back pedal furiously but the shot gun blast follows me around the corner and hits anyway.
I just want there to be a little delay between "target recognition" and "attack." Like there's a little animation where the individual sees me and points; "Look out, it's WarBird!!"

There often was. I've had one or two out of a spawn that were looking in my general direction suddenly turn to look straight at me when I got too close. If I don't retreat, they might fire a warning shot into my face a second or three later. My impression is that they only attack instantaneously if you come upon them at extremely close range, or if you attack them. I guess they should be caught flatfooted more often when someone suddenly bursts into the room.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Agreed. I'm not angling to somehow sneak "twitchy" reaction speeds into City of Titans. Instead, I see the enabling of a more Player driven and dependent style of "manual" gameplay as being what amounts to an "advanced gameplay mode" that is entirely optional, with the more traditional Tab To Target functionality and services being what amounts to the "default" (and thus baseline) playing experience. However, for Players who want a more "intensive" or if you prefer "harder" playing experience that is more akin to a Third Person Shooter then the option to do so is there because of the underlying structure of how the combat system "works" under the hood.

I submit that, if adopting this process creates situations where a player can only improve their combat situation by switching to a twitch-based 'advanced' gameplay mode, then it's no different from having the twitch-based mechanics active all the time for everyone -- the ones who can use it will benefit from it, the ones who can't won't. Even if there is a base 'debuff' where the character loses an automatic defensive computation in exchange for having to perform twitch-based actions to restore that computation, if a character can ever get a better combat position from using a twitch-based alternative, then it is a penalty to players who can't manage that alternative; to maintain parity, it needs to be an 'increased difficulty' setting that, at best, returns the character to the same defensive state as players not using the alternative mechanics, making it a personal choice for players who want the additional challenge.

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

The scenario that bugged me most went like this:
Step around a corner into aggro range of an unforeseen mob. Said mob turns, sees me, and insta-fires a ranged attack all int the same instant. I back pedal furiously but the shot gun blast follows me around the corner and hits anyway.
I just want there to be a little delay between "target recognition" and "attack." Like there's a little animation where the individual sees me and points; "Look out, it's WarBird!!" If I can get back around the corner before the "recognition" timer runs out, then I'm behind cover, and he has to chase me. Maybe he brings all his friends, maybe not.
I'd also prefer there be some kind of "perception cone" for mobs. That is, if none of the mobs happen to be looking my way when I stumble around a corner, they don't see me at all. Maybe not until I attack, even. Or the "idle" animations of one of them has them turn and notice me.
And I'm ok with my ranged attacks not chasing around corners either.

TERA features what I would consider to be an excellent Mob Aggro State telegraphing mechanic, which I'd recommend for consideration in City of Titans.

What happens is that when you're out of aggro radius the mobs just do their idle/patrol animations. As soon as a character (PC or NPC) enters their perception sphere (which is not circular, since mobs are less perceptive in their rear arc) the mob will stop, spin in place and "look" at the PC with a {!} icon appearing over their head in black, white and grey for heightened contrast with the surroundings. Mobs normally will have a sort of "grace field" in their perception where if you touch the edges of their perception range, they'll "watch" you but won't necessarily aggro onto you, and sometimes if you don't move while they watch you they'll "lose interest" and go back to being idle and doing whatever they were doing before you interrupted them with your presence. Because of this system, there's rarely a question of whether or not you're moving "too close" to a mob or not.

Some NPCs are primarily peaceful and will "alert" like this but take no aggressive action unless they are themselves attacked. Others will go on "alert" and if you don't leave their perception range within a couple of seconds will aggro onto you. Some of the NPCs have different "alert" and "aggro" radii such that they'll spin to watch you, but if you come any closer they'll aggro and if you back off they'll break out of "alert" status and go back to idle. And there's the "sneak up from behind" condition where because of the unequal perception range in front and in back, if you're sneaking up on a mob from behind they might not notice you until you're really close, but then if they turn and "catch" you sneaking up on them, the turning of their perception areas will shift you from outside their detection range at all to being well within their aggro on sight range, simply because they turned and "caught you" sneaking up behind them.

I'd also point out that while extremely fast projectile attacks can essentially eliminate the "twitchiness" of gameplay, sometimes going pretty far in the opposite direction can also be interesting ... such as the slow moving, homing (optional), Big Ball o' Doom™ style of attacks that penetrate through Hit Boxes and keep going, are "auto-hit" if they touch your Hit Box, and have long Flight Times (think 10 seconds) and slow Flight Speeds, making them easy to outmaneuver so long as you see them coming and aren't distracted (*cough* Taunt *cough*).

Hmmm ... that would make for an interesting/RUDE side effect of being Taunted. While Taunted, all power effects and projectiles produced by casters OTHER THAN the character that Taunted you are not displayed on your screen because you are not "aware" of them, since your attention is focused on the character that Taunted you. Sort of a selective "No Visual FX" kind of deal that impairs situational awareness for Players ... so they CAN'T SEE (or hear?) the big slow rolling Bowling Ball Of Doom™ coming towards them, because they've been Taunted.


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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I feel the same way. I'd view the need to deal with or constantly worry about such things as cover or NPCs that will alert their compatriots is a fairly fundamental change to the feel of the game. I don't mind if there is a mission or story arc that deals with enemies who make use of such features, but to have to deal with minions crouching behind cover constantly would get tiresome very quickly.

I'm not suggesting that mobs OR players have a specific "cover" mechanic, like crouching and hiding. But standing or retreating around the corner of a wall should make a difference. Again, it comes down to intuitive tactics.

In addition, a cover mechanic would raise issues such as devaluing defensive sets and providing ground targeting or AoE attacks with too much prominence for attacking or flushing out enemies who are in cover.

Agreed. See above. Besides, you don't have to program AI's to seek cover AT ALL.

Most attacks could be made to animate and travel/hit their target so quickly that the question of dodging it, or the attack 'following' the target, wouldn't be raised, but that would remove a lot of the flair. I prefer to keep the flair and thus resolve first. If that means the attack occasionally curves through the air or even around corners, so be it.

Heh. Yeah, I don't expect to be able to dodge a laser beam (even though you see it in comics all the time.) But, as I said earlier, give me a chance to duck back before the bad guys get off a shot. Like the seen in Star Wars where Luke and Han, et al, come around the corner to face a squad of storm troopers. There's that moment of "Huh? what are YOU doing here?" Then "Get 'em!" at which point everyone either dives for cover or takes a second to acquire a target.

If you've ever been in a real firefight situation like that you'd know what it's like. It seems campy at one extreme (like the SW example above) but there's always a hesitation while realization sinks in. It would be reasonable to assume that different levels of "training" or "alertness" of a mob could reduce that time. But in reality, you can't eliminate it altogether. It still takes time to acquire a target.

I'll couch this in CoH terms. If I stumble upon some Hellions dancing around jamboxes in a hideout, there should be a significant pause, like "Oh no, you didn't just walk up in here..." If I turn around a corner to find some patrolling Malta ops in a base we're both trying to infiltrate, I'd expect them to take significantly less time to be prepared to fire. And if I burst into a room where there are two ranks of standing and kneeling Nemesis troops with their guns trained on the door, I'd expect those guns to go off before I was even completely clear of debris. Even so, that's "volley fire." Not targeted at me, specifically. Just orders to "fill this space with lead" if the door opens.

The mechanic Red cites seems to take a step in the right direction. But to me, alerted is alerted. You shouldn't forget I was there because I stepped out of aggro range.

What I'm really most annoyed with is still the simultaneous aggro/acquire target/fire. Get rid of that, and I'll be much happier. Although, it will always bug me if shotgun blasts chase us around corners.

While I said earlier I was okay with that, I mean I'd put up with it if my original complaint was dealt with. However, you can put me in the Anim1st/Res2nd camp for preference

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

Heh. Yeah, I don't expect to be able to dodge a laser beam (even though you see it in comics all the time.) But, as I said earlier, give me a chance to duck back before the bad guys get off a shot. Like the seen in Star Wars where Luke and Han, et al, come around the corner to face a squad of storm troopers. There's that moment of "Huh? what are YOU doing here?" Then "Get 'em!" at which point everyone either dives for cover or takes a second to acquire a target.

Agreed, the zero reaction time thing is rather annoying. It'd be nice if such things could be tweaked so that the mobs did not respond at the speed of a computer (ha). Not due to any 'realism'* but because it's nice to be able to react quickly enough, or to taunt and duck back, without needing to worry that no matter how quick you were there might still be a full alpha strike coming your way.

*I try to be careful about banging that drum too loudly, since the first victims of 'realism' would logically be the superheroes/villains themselves.

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

The mechanic Red cites seems to take a step in the right direction. But to me, alerted is alerted. You shouldn't forget I was there because I stepped out of aggro range.

Behaviorally, it just means that you step back out of range to be aggroed upon before being aggroed upon, that's all. It gives the Player a chance for a "whoops-a-daisy!" moment to back out rather than enforce combat just because you stepped into "I see you" range. Additionally, it's also possible for the Foe NPC to also jump back so as to open up the range enough to drop "I see you" attention notice. Instead of thinking of it as a "I forget" reaction by the Foe NPC, I prefer to think of it as being more of a "not worth bothering about" reaction.

This video, which I have posted before in the Animations thread in a different forum, can be played at 720p on a Large Player window, and you'll be able to see the {!} indicator popping up over the heads of the Hyenas fairly easily when the Player enters their Notice range. You can also see early on that a Foe NPC jumps back while in Notice State as if by reflex (it's one of their combat moves, actually), and you can also watch very early on the deployment of a Big Arcane Ball Of Doom™ that takes a long time to Charge up (that's the green, yellow, red, blinking red bar that appears on screen denoting current Charge state) that when "fired" travels very slowly in the direction it is launched (at also penetrates Hit Boxes and keeps going to its maximum range) giving you an idea of how a Slow Projectile can work (and, as it happens in this example, MISS Foe NPCs that aren't even really "trying" to dodge it just by idly walking around).

For anyone who hasn't played TERA, the Hyenas being fought in this video are essentially the equivalent of Trolls in Skyway as far as difficulty goes (ie. relatively low level pushovers).


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My understanding is that City

My understanding is that City of Heroes did indeed have a range at which NPCs had noticed you but had not yet decided to attack (unless you lingered there).

My understanding is that the difference between the 'instantly attack' radius and the 'notice but wait' radius was in some cases very small (and could be affected things like having an LT nearby buffing perception).

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kitsune9tails wrote:
kitsune9tails wrote:

My understanding is that City of Heroes did indeed have a range at which NPCs had noticed you but had not yet decided to attack (unless you lingered there).
My understanding is that the difference between the 'instantly attack' radius and the 'notice but wait' radius was in some cases very small (and could be affected things like having an LT nearby buffing perception).

This did exist in city of heroes. I used to refer to it as "body pulling". You could inch into LOS from max range and ease forward slowly. Frequently this would cause one or two of the more perceptive foes in a spawn to peel off without aggroing the rest. You had to be VERY aware of range and be ready to quickly break LOS.

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I'd recommend anyone with

I'd recommend anyone with thoughts on this (particularly any devs, obviously :P ) to have a look at how The Secret World handled this.

Single-target ranged attacks were (I think) resolve then animate, but NPC AoE's had a graphical wind up time that would show the area the attack would hit, and how long until it went off.

See the fight here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkejSqaOU8U&t=11m55s for an example.

Notice the cone that appears in front of the fireman zombie, with the internal lines slowly moving to the centre? That's the sort of thing I mean. It's a fairly clear "get outta here" indicator that requires awareness over reactions to avoid. When the timings are on that scale, as Red mentioned earlier, I don't think it's in the region of "twitch" that most people think of.

And, speaking personally, movement is what made the CoX combat so appealing. It was dynamic, constantly shifting. You couldn't just stand near a mob and click buttons (well,I guess you /could/ but it was hardly optimal). If CoT doesn't require players to move constantly anyway (regardless of any form of dodging) to line up cones, get out of patches, etc. then it will, for me, have spectacularly failed to capture the essence of what made CoX so fun to play.

Given that, /some/, limited form of attack avoidance via movement would not be inappropriate. I like the idea of avoidable attacks having more of a secondary effect, say. And require a telegraphed charge up time for them (bright aiming laser pointed at you while the sniper lines up his shot, for example).

This removes the "twitch" requirement, and moves it to more of an "aware of your environment" requirement. Which I hope is not considered unreasonable :P

Betcha they nerf accuracy in the first patch...

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Jesters Ghost wrote:
Jesters Ghost wrote:

Given that, /some/, limited form of attack avoidance via movement would not be inappropriate. I like the idea of avoidable attacks having more of a secondary effect, say. And require a telegraphed charge up time for them (bright aiming laser pointed at you while the sniper lines up his shot, for example).

One of the things that SWTOR does when you're using a Location AoE attack is give you a graphic indicator on the ground that approximates the area affected by the attack, which you can move around to decide where to drop the AoE, and then you go into the power animation when you click to place the effect. When this happens, your targets see an AoE targeting graphic under them, and can choose whether or not to move to get out of the AoE (or to interrupt the attacker, if they're identifiable and interruptible). This mechanic is applied in both directions -- in PvE, for example, you see a targeting circle under you when an NPC is dropping an AoE on you. The same effect occurs to a lesser degree with some long-animation attacks like Snipe for Agents -- the target will see a targeting reticle appear on their chest while the attack animation occurs.

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I would point out that a lot

I would point out that a lot of these "put an indicator on the ground" games are essentially groundbound playing environments. In City of Titans I expect flight to be common, meaning needing to translate these things into a 3D rather than 2D form ... thus lines on the ground are hardly adequate.


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True, but you can do a full

True, but you can do a full 3d version if you are not *on* the ground.... ie for cone, you see the full cone shape, for a radial PBAOE you see the sphere around you(or the target). Of course, then you have the difficulty for aiming between them....

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Actually, it's worse.

Actually, it's worse. Remember you get no real perspective with a 2D screen, so it's hard to distinguish distance from size. You're going to need some kind of additional effect, say a highlight that is applied to potential targets, to really be useful.

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Actually, it's worse. Remember you get no real perspective with a 2D screen, so it's hard to distinguish distance from size. You're going to need some kind of additional effect, say a highlight that is applied to potential targets, to really be useful.

The highlighting part would solve a lot of it. I guess my initial response was poor, because I was thinking of Eve Online and their probing mechanic, which has you use resizable spheres to find a spot in a 3d abstract environment.

The highlighting usage would made it better overall... (either that or in this case, this is where tab targetting comes in so much better as a solution...

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

The highlighting part would solve a lot of it. I guess my initial response was poor, because I was thinking of Eve Online and their probing mechanic, which has you use resizable spheres to find a spot in a 3d abstract environment.

How do you set range in that system? CoX just assumed range was "maximum feasible" e.g. with Teleport Self targeting.

Gangrel wrote:

The highlighting usage would made it better overall... (either that or in this case, this is where tab targetting comes in so much better as a solution...

Guided missiles generally outperform ballistic ones, sure. But sometimes you need to switch off the targeting computer.

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Quote:
Quote:

How do you set range in that system? CoX just assumed range was "maximum feasible" e.g. with Teleport Self targeting

To set the scanning range in Eve Online, it was a case of right click the sphere of infuence, and then drag it to the appropriate range (going from 32AU down to 0.25 AU, reducing in half per step). You could also (with a quick Shift+Click in the probes window), do it to all of them at the same time, (Or move them all at the same time).

Good probers could get stuff done in under a minute, if not faster.

I hadn't really thought through how it would work in CoT, compared to EVE Online, it was just an off the cuff "hey how about this, which I just remembered, and was also in a 3d space).

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

sometimes you need to switch off the targeting computer.

Use the Force Mastery n00b. Let go, n00b!


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
sometimes you need to switch off the targeting computer.
Use the Force Mastery n00b. Let go, n00b!

You've detoggled your Targeting Drone. Is everything all right?

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

If it comes down to players within the slow projectile bubble must move in order to effectively avoid getting hit, this is a twitch requirement even if it is slow, and probably not going to be part of the main part of the game. Part of no twitch as a base game play element is avoiding situations where a in order to receive the benefit of a buff the player must react. And before anyone decides to mention it; avoiding patches as has been brought up in other threads is something else entirely and to be used very judiciously.

I think in this case it's acceptable twitch mechanic. I'm a bit concerned about all movement requirements being quickly labeled as twitch. What I fear most is that we will see CoH style gameplay where you are rooted to spot and can practice melee-range combat even as a ranged character. I mean I often saw ranged characters standing still in melee throwing ranged attacks instead of actively moving to keep enemies at range or switching to melee attacks when enemy closed in. Similarly others have already pointed that breaking the line of sight should block a projectile. Not allow it to home through walls or other objects that break the line of effect.

Casting ranged attacks in melee and having obstacle piercing attacks are both mechanics that belong to history in my opinion. Not something modern MMOs should have. I don't mind not having twitchy defenses like dodge, block or timed counterattacks or interrupts but if the goal is to have boring stand-still-and-exchange-attacks style combat along with homing attacks then please let me know well in advance and I'll just briefly lament for demise of a yet another potentially interesting game and move along. No matter how great the game is otherwise nothing compensates for boring combat.

On an unrelated note. Redlynne. I sometimes support your views but even I find many of your replies to other people very hostile, abrasive and borderline arrogant. Insulting people won't endear anyone to your point of view.

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Northie wrote:
Northie wrote:

I think in this case it's acceptable twitch mechanic. I'm a bit concerned about all movement requirements being quickly labeled as twitch. What I fear most is that we will see CoH style gameplay where you are rooted to spot and can practice melee-range combat even as a ranged character. I mean I often saw ranged characters standing still in melee throwing ranged attacks instead of actively moving to keep enemies at range or switching to melee attacks when enemy closed in. Similarly others have already pointed that breaking the line of sight should block a projectile. Not allow it to home through walls or other objects that break the line of effect.
Casting ranged attacks in melee and having obstacle piercing attacks are both mechanics that belong to history in my opinion. Not something modern MMOs should have. I don't mind not having twitchy defenses like dodge, block or timed counterattacks or interrupts but if the goal is to have boring stand-still-and-exchange-attacks style combat along with homing attacks then please let me know well in advance and I'll just briefly lament for demise of a yet another potentially interesting game and move along. No matter how great the game is otherwise nothing compensates for boring combat.

Please understand when I stated that at base our design for power interactions do not consider twitch movement for function. This may (and most likely) change (to some degree) through various iterations we will go through in the process of development. Hence a buff power designed solely with the intent that in order to recieve a benefit of the buff one must move to gain say "defense" to avoid being hit isn't currently being considered, noted as a possiblility, but not currently "plan to do this" category.

Other possible "twitch-like" mechanics such as cover are also noted as possible. We don't want static or stationary game play either, at least most who've outwardly spoken up about it have stated as such. But everything occurs in stages, and I wasn't speaking towards cover mechanics as that is much farther than current planning stages, again noted as possible, not currently planned when considering desinging powers. I specifically was speaking regarding power design and not combat game-play as a whole, though it has been publically stated that we aren't planning on designing the game with "twitch" in mind for combat at its most basic level of function. How much of that will change and to what degree will be made possible is yet to be determined. Sorry for any confusion.


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