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Religious Terrorism

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DesViper
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Religious Terrorism

User Generated Content (UCG), and possibly other content may have it's taboo subjects (e.g., no rape plz)

Is the use of religious terrorists as a plot item too offensive or too taboo to be allowed?

I'm always on the side of no, it's not, few things are.

Does it violate a T rating? I think it shouldn't, but does it?

Note: this applies to real-world religions (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc). Fictional religion should be pretty good to go on doing whatever in a plot where it makes sense (or doesn't), since no one gets offended.

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Now I am not a dev but I

Now I am not a dev but I think you would be okay with doing this as long as you don't do anything stupid like present the created content in such a way that it looks like your brushstroking every person of that religion as the same as the crazy radicals. Considering how there is pretty much a crazy religious cult in probably every superhero universe it's bound to happen anyway....

Judging by what I have read the lore has a similar history to the real world but of course with some historical events changed due to Supers and Martian invasions so the existence of groups such as ISIS, Al Qaeda, FAMAS, and many others would probably still be prevalent(the names might change though of course, being filled with villains or twisted vigilantes and all). I really doubt anyone would complain about bad depictions of terrorist organizations.

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For Europe, the question is

For Europe, the question is whether such content would fall into the category of depicting and/or encouraging discrimination. The ESRB does not appear to have any similar considerations that influence their ratings.

On the other hand, if it is user generated content then it falls into the category of, "Online Interactions Not Rated by the ESRB." The closest thing to this warning that I was able to find with regards to PEGI is Article 9[color=red]*[/color] in the PEGI Online Safety Code (POSC). (Both the PEGI and PEGI Online website are quite terrible. Classic examples of design by committee, I'd say.)

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[color=red]*[/color] Licence holders shall use their best endeavours to ensure that online services under their control are kept free of content which is illegal, offensive, racist, degrading, corrupting, threatening, obscene or might permanently impair the development of minors.

When online services under the control of the license holders also contain user generated content, the license holders shall use their best endeavours to immediately take down user generated content which is illegal, offensive, racist, degrading, corrupting, threatening, or obscene.

Observance of all the foregoing should, where possible, also include removal of undesirable links or ‘hyperlinks.’

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The problem I see with this

The problem I see with this is that somebody somewhere is going to take offense to it. There was a time when things like Captain America punching Hitler in the face was okay, but these are not those times. Personally I see nothing wrong with it, and I also feel that our world is a little TOO Politically Correct. And I'm sure I'm going to offend somebody even by saying that. I just don't see this happening. As long as it is kept in Fictionland then it should be fine. However, you start using real world groups and religions and somebody is bound to start screaming bloody murder about it.

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The "Vigilant Church" was

The "Vigilant Church" was having enough issues with this in Wildstar even though they specifically state that this is not related to ANY Earth theology. I don't shy away from good story but it can be told without praising or condemning people's personal beliefs.

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

The problem I see with this is that somebody somewhere is going to take offense to it. There was a time when things like Captain America punching Hitler in the face was okay, but these are not those times. Personally I see nothing wrong with it, and I also feel that our world is a little TOO Politically Correct. And I'm sure I'm going to offend somebody even by saying that. I just don't see this happening. As long as it is kept in Fictionland then it should be fine. However, you start using real world groups and religions and somebody is bound to start screaming bloody murder about it.

Ik everyone's got their hypersensitivity, for me, if a scientist is depicted stupidly, I get offended. But the question is if real-world religion as a plot item is TOO offensive, so much as to justify GM action.

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In the COH AE I created a

In the COH AE I created a mission featuring a group of terrorists. They were clearly Arabic and one of their leaders was called the Silver Crescent. (They also had some Afrits) I never named the group I just called them the Silver Crescent's followers. No one complained.
I did a mission where you helped a group of persecuted Christians escape from communist China. One person asked me why I decided to set it in China but no one complained.
Nazis were Verboten but that's fine with me because WWII was 75 freekin years ago and as a German American I'm happy to let it die.

I would not be offended by the use of any political or religious group, so long as it's clear that the villains are a radical splinter group and not representative of the real people who subscribe to these beliefs.

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Crazy religious radical

Crazy religious radical groups are bound to happen anyway. They appear in pretty much any superhero or fantasy setting.

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Bleddyn wrote:
Bleddyn wrote:

Crazy religious radical groups are bound to happen anyway. They appear in pretty much any superhero or fantasy setting.

Um, they do? Where? I've not seen any in CoH, or DCUO, or AoC, or LotRO, or WoW... I suppose the Sith would count, in SWTOR?

I don't really think 'crazy religious groups' are needed in CoT.

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Depends what you mean by

Depends what you mean by crazy religious groups. The Banished Pantheon were a crazy religious group. The CoT weren't so much, but they pretended to be exercising their constitutional right to sacrifice pretty girls on street corners.

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CO: High Apostolic Church (a

CO: High Apostolic Church (a front for Therakiel)
DCUO: Intergang's Religion of Crime (A front for Apokolips, IIRC)
LotRO: If the Sith count in ToR, then so should all Sauron's minions.
WoW: Scarlet Crusade

I haven't played AoC or CoH...

That said, just because it's common, doesn't mean it's necessary.

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City of Heroes had the

City of Heroes had the Banished Pantheon whom caused a zombie apocalypse that killed off the entire population in one of the zones (if I am remembering this correctly). I think Circle of Thorns was more of a mage sacrificial group then...they might of been more interested in magical entities then anything else but I am not sure if that is much different and I can't recall that much about them other then the fact that they loved to summon demons and wraiths.

Now I wasn't saying the crazy religious radical groups are needed in every fantasy/superhero game. What I was saying is that it's quite common for that to appear in those type of games. Foradin only got a chunk of the ones I have seen. WoW also had the Burning Blade Cult and the Twillight Hammer. CO I think had a militarized snake themed faction that had some snake cutlists in it who did summon a minion of a god at one point to kill you (I think). AoC definetly had some necromancer cults (although I don't know there names) both Guild Wars games had the White Mantle.

They are a quite common enemy to see in games and it's not hard to see why...considering real word history and all. The only real issue I would have if real world radical religious terrorists were used in the Mission Creator is if the author were to present it like every person of the religion that terrorist faction belonged to was a radical terrorist themselves. I have a serious problem with generalizing and brush stroking a group of people as the same.

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For what I'm trying to answer

For what I'm trying to answer, I'm not asking if it's necessary, but [i]allowed[/i].

If I make a mission where christians are attacking a government facility after some cloning legislation and even if i make them stereotypes (which is just bad writing), should a GM, if complained to, ask me to change it?

As a 'murican, I say unless I cross the line very much (saying "blowing up an abortion clinic...like any Christian would do given the chance" or worse "Muslims being the evildoers they all are"), I'm on the side of "let him say what he wants, if he wants to be a dick, let him suffer".

The question almost deserves to be in the "Mission Creator" topic, but I feel it reaches further.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

CO: High Apostolic Church (a front for Therakiel)
DCUO: Intergang's Religion of Crime (A front for Apokolips, IIRC)
LotRO: If the Sith count in ToR, then so should all Sauron's minions.
WoW: Scarlet Crusade
I haven't played AoC or CoH...
That said, just because it's common, doesn't mean it's necessary.

CoH had the Banished Pantheon and Tsoo who were quite religion, but not monotheisms like the Abrahamic.

Don't get me started on religion in general :p

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So are you asking the Devs

So are you asking the Devs for a ruling right now, or opening the floor to debate on whether or not we think the Devs should allow it ?

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My gut says that a Dev will

My gut says that a Dev will either ask you to change it, or remove it. As I've said, people are awfully touchy today as compared to several years ago. For liability reasons I'm fairly sure that is what will happen. If ONE person deems it offensive enough there could be a law suit involved.

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I think, if you name any

I think, if you name any existing religious group in your content, then Someone is going to be mad about it. It's just better if you don't. Religion and Politics are just too much of a hot-topic for people to be neutral about them.

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I think it's fair to say that

I think it's fair to say that it is plausible that CoT will have Diety lore.. but I sincerely doubt it's tied to current earth Theology

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There's only one religion

There's only one religion where you CAN paint everyone as insane extremists...

Fortunately for you, we've still failed at summoning Mother Hydra on the city.

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Considerably more harm than

Considerably more harm than good will come from integrating real-world religion and/or politics with CoT.

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TheMightyPaladin wrote:
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

So are you asking the Devs for a ruling right now, or opening the floor to debate on whether or not we think the Devs should allow it ?

The latter :p

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It'll happen. Some of it

It'll happen. Some of it will be in the game. Some of it will be player created. Some of it will be ok. Some won't. It'll be handled.

Just like CoH.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Allowed? I'd argue for yes (

Allowed? I'd argue for yes ('Murica!).

There necessarily have to be caveats however because we will hopefully have a very broad audience that will probably include at least someone from a given category of people, and many European countries have legal issues with "hate speech" and similar things.

If its allowed at all, it will have to be at developer/gm discretion on where the line is, and they'd really have to be fairly heavy-handed with questionable content from a legal and business perspective.

I have no illusions about how depraved or clueless some gamers can be, so we have to account for the idiots without enough sense to not ruin it for the rest of us.

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I think we should be allowed

I think we should be allowed to use any political or religious group, so long as it's clear that the Villains are a radical splinter group and do not represent most of the people who subscribe to the same beliefs.
Unless they're all robots or monsters, every villain has to be some race, so it's not racist to show a villain of any particular race, but it is racist to imply that all members of that race are villains. The same rule should go for beliefs. If we want our villains to be realistic, we will give them motives drawn from a realistic set of beliefs. Naturally since they're villains those beliefs are going to be a bit twisted in their heads.
Adventure stories are just like any other kind of literature. They can be springboards for discussion about philosophy and religion. The Superhero Genre Is About The Struggle Between Good And Evil. It Deals With The Mysterious And Miraculous In A Symbolic Way. Anyone Who Doesn't Realize That Superheroes Are Really About Religion, Just Isn't Paying Attention. I don't take offense or assume the author is anti Catholic just because a villain in his story is a priest. But I would be offended if the author implied that every priest, was just like his villain.

What follows is an excerpt from a pen & paper game I'm making:

Most most common criminals just want to make money, They steel things they smuggle stuff and they stockpile weapons to protect their interests but they don't usually have any interest in taking big risks or making statements (unless it's aimed at eliminating competition). Ideological groups on the other hand, are really into Grand Schemes. So naturally if you want to make a great super villain, you're going to want someone with insane ideas.
Of course, twisting realistic ideologies into villainous parodies or pushing them to radical extremes, runs the risk of offending lots of people and besides that it takes a lot of work. EG: If you want to use communists, you need to think about what a communist villain would want to do, to advance the cause of communism. Fortunately there are several popular comic book villain ideologies that don't have to make sense. An Anarchist doesn't have to believe that killing the mayor will advance his cause, he just wants to shake things up for the sheeple.
Insane as they are, these are still beliefs that some people in the real world have held, and they always have terrible consequences; so you can easily picture mindless minions being drawn to a charismatic leader of these kinds.

ANARCHISTS
The most appealing of these. Anarchists love freedom, hate authority and want to do away with government. Any attack on Government or large industries might come from anarchists.

NIHILISTS
Nihilists are more pessimistic, they don't believe in freedom. They just hate civilization and want to do away with it. Like Anarchists, they often target governments or big businesses but Nihilists are also fond of attacks on large populations.

ELITISTS
Reveling in pleasure and power, Elitists see themselves as superior to ordinary people and privileged to do as they please. They might style themselves after some royal family of the past, or they could be radical racists, but many Elitists simply base their belief in their own superiority on some source of power that they posses. They could be intellectuals with high technology, mutants with a variety of powers, or even vampires.
Elitists often want to conquer (not necessarily the world) but sometimes they already rule a secret empire of some sort and just want to protect their interests. EG: keep their secrets, traffic their contraband, lure their victims etc...

SATANISTS
Unapologetically rallying around a symbol of evil, satanist, hate good. There are 2 basic types of satanists. Radical atheists, who hate religion, and lunatics who worship an evil spirit in hopes of gaining some pleasure or power. Both groups might attack churches, but only the second group will try to sacrifice people so they can summon a monster.

NAZIS
Nazis are just one type of Elitist but they get special attention because they've played a big role in comic book history, just as they did in real history, But WWII was more than 75 years ago. They're no longer a serious threat, and using them just doesn't make sense any more. but they can still hurt people's feelings, so just don't use them.

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I'm not sure anyone has

I'm not sure anyone has pointed this out, but there was a perfect example of fictional races/religions committing genocide against one another, though by the time of CoW it was just Lore.

Circle of Thorns/Mage Kings of Orenbaga and Warlords of Mu were both apparently huge civilizations with massive magical capacity, both were empowered with magic by one god or another, and both also ended up being screwed by the deal. Their incidents happened fourteen thousand years ago however, but they still had fanatical cultish behavior, though Mu were largely unused except by Arachnos. Circle of Thorns could arguably be called the religious fanatics of Paragon City. There was also Merulina and the Coralax, though they're really not so much religious...

As for whether this should be allowed? I honestly don't care too much about it, but that's because I see any game as much a work of art as a novel or a painting. If the authors and artist, developers in this case, have a point they want to anvil, that's there prerogative and we don't have to listen. The same goes for a given story arc in the UGC tools, you want to express yourself, you're the one making yourself into an assbutt. Of course not everything called art, is, but still. However it could cause issue with immersion to jar someone with instances of realistic religious violence or terrorism.

Though pragmatically, I would prefer they didn't. No publicity is bad publicity and all, but by the same token look at every other game that even remotely thought about putting something racey into their game, even the ones that 'pulled back' so to speak. (GTA: San Andres, Silent Hill 2, etc. Both sexual situations that sparked controversy and already generally agreed to be non-PC) It would be a good idea to just steer away from that sort of thing since it's obviously going to cause someone to lose their mind.

We just want to play super heroes, and who doesn't like a game that actually makes you feel or think a little? I mean, nothing ground shattering or deep enough to ruin your fun, but if you're reading the stories in the game instead of mashing whatever confirm button gets you past the dialogue, you're playing the game but you're tossing out all the good stuff. I haven't read a great plethora of (Super hero) comics but the ones I did and enjoyed most were these kinds, you saw some action, you thought a little, got entertained and weren't offended. Extend that to manga and that's my hook.

Go for that, make your statement, push the feels, but don't do it in a way that directly offends someone. You can write thought provoking games without pulling the real stuff in, and you can portray truly heinous villains by other acts, statements or policies.

Sorry this got a little verbose...