I barely knew of CoH at launch. A friend told me about it. He raved about it, got me excited, I bought it, and a month later, my friend was looking at other games while I was going nuts over each new issue of CoH.
I know that MWM is anxious to get the game right, get it into our hands, and get us playing and subscribing. Of course. That is the plan, and that's the drive. But the recent news about the Hail Mary got me thinking about how it might be to find myself rooted back in City of Heroes with City of Titans on the horizon. It might also be difficult to get people to give up the old universe and step forward, as the EQ and EQ2 thing proved for some fans. And knowing that the re-released CoH game has a lifespan as limited as the new hotness of CoT makes it difficult to ask players to reinvest, and then abandon what they've worked on.
Then, I saw this article about the Raid content being released for Destiny in it's first week:
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/68798
...and it got me thinking. We *might* have Issue 13 to play with... and the plan is to have the Costume Creator on our Android and Mac handhelds before CoT's release. There are some great things in play that, handled in the right way, could really build CoT incredibly.
What I want to suggest is anathema to a lot of people, but what I think this game really needs: if CoH comes back, find a way to let people make accounts there that will be a part of their CoT preregistration.... and then delay the release of CoT.
Start with opening up CoH again. And give the world away in CoH: all the costumes, all archetypes, all the powers, so that no one can say 'I bought this before from NCSoft... now you want me to pay for it again?' If MWM is associating itself with CoH, don't try to resell it in any way; just sell subscriptions for access to the servers. After a week or two of the CoH Re-release, give massive Prestige away for every player account with a toon in a Supergroup, so that players have a really good reason to bring back their old friends. (Do this not by toon, but by Account, to prevent exploitation.)
Give players a guarantee of time so that they will want to invest themselves back into CoH-- a year, at minimum, that CoH will run. Give your CoT Kickstarters freebies based on the level of their contribution. Let them come back, enjoy it, entice their friends back, and let it work to move them towards CoT.
When CoT is released, make it come out of the gate fighting, with a series of releases and updates (2nd week in, 4th week in, 7th week in, 10th week in, etc.), thoroughly tested and bug-checked, and ready to roll out, so that the awesome just keeps coming and it's all the MMO community can talk about.
You are not gonna suprise too many of the Kickstarters or the hardcore folks with this approach, and they'll see it coming... but will still be massively excited by it. The MMO migrators, the one who daly in one game, then leave it after a month... who will like the game, but have little knowledge of it prior to release... those folks will be wowed beyond belief, and find their attention strongly on City of Titans for a great deal of time to come.
Marketing CoT in this fashion gives you more time to make CoT a killer app... gives time to have a very proper goodbye to CoH with a sense of succession to CoT... floods your coffers with subscriptions and game engine purchases... and will get the attention of the media at large.
MWM has no affiliation with CoH, the negotiations for it, the people doing the negotiations, and no say in the matter over anything to do with CoH should it return.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
And this is exactly why the folks at MWM should just keep moving forward with their plans for CoT regardless of what happens to CoH. There's no way for the two games to "coordinate" anything given that there's no way to know when or if CoH is ever going to return in any capacity at all.
I suspect if a miracle occurs and someone actually manages to get some static version of CoH running again that its mere existence (for however long it lasts) would serve as free publicity for CoT. People would see it running and people would talk about it which would be a good word-of-mouth boost for CoT whenever it finally launches.
People will realize that the "future" of the game will be CoT - at best a reanimated CoH would only be a brief "walk down memory lane" that'll serve as an appetizer for the new game. I seriously doubt that many people would fully abandon CoT in favor of CoH, especially since any reanimated version of CoH will likely suffer two huge drawbacks: 1) it won't be updated and 2) all of our original character data will still be gone. Frankly if I have to restart all my characters again (after losing 8.5 years of progress on them) I'd rather restart them in the game that has a supportable, updatable future - that game will be CoT.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
*non-sarcastic slow clapping*
We may not always see eye to eye, Lothic, but that was well said. I don't quite have the same amount of time invested in the old city, as I joined just before Architect Edition, but I do have the same problem that all of my progress is gone. I no longer have that character in my signature with the two 3% defense unique slotted to push her over 50% melee/ranged/aoe/psi defense solo and we'll over the effective +4 softcap with a single buff from a teammate. I no longer have my stone/fire tank incarnate with a non-granite build and a Granite only build.
If CoH comes back, I will play it...but only because there is nothing else that plays like it.
YET!
The original Lady of Ysgard. -Virtue
[img]http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/203/c/5/Updated_Homage_by_Voldine.jpg[/img]
Thanks... I'm humble enough to allow my extended Cult of Personality to be flexible in how they express their absolute devotion to me. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Hey!! Where is the subscribe as Follower button!? :(
That's really bad news: it makes it competing product and a step in the wrong direction. I wrongly assumed there would be affiliation and hopefully, the interest in a re-released CoH could be leveraged to make a transition to CoT.
Actually I don't see the currently questionable fate of CoH as "bad news" for CoT regardless of what happens to it.
At this point the best case scenario I've seen about the various CoH rumors would be for an I24 reboot that could happen in maybe like six months or a year from now. Even if that semi-miracle happens it will almost certainly be a static version of the game meaning it will never be updated. As cool as being able to play the Issue 24 version of CoH might be the "direction" of that will always be a dead end because eventually (without updates) almost everyone who'd be interested in playing it now will get tried of it sooner or later. The other major downside is that there's virtually no chance our original character data will be included in that reboot. I don't know about you but I seriously have no desire to spend thousands of hours trying to "recreate" what I lost in a game that will never be updated and has no foreseeable, lasting future.
In a nutshell a rebooted CoH is not and could never be the "future" leaning game of the two. If it got rebooted before CoT launched it would serve as a de facto "placeholder" in expectation for CoT. There would be plenty of word-of-mouth in both player communities about which game actually represents the future. Sure there may end up being a few die-hards who'll jump back into CoH and cling to its tattered fringes for as long it lasts. But in the long run CoT has the potential to catch up to and surpass anything CoH would ever be able to offer. Your notion of CoH and CoT directly "competing" with each other would be a transitional illusion at best.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'm sure better minds than mine are examining this as part of the business plan, but I seem to remember there being trouble moving players from the world they occupied in Everquest to Everquest 2-- and those products were released by the same company. If the 'successor' concept of CoT is just a notion and MWM has no voice in converting interest from the old game to the new game, might transitioning those players be harder than anticipated?
I'm not entirely sure your analogy of "Everquest vs. Everquest 2" quite fits this scenario.
First of all I do not believe the folks interested in rebooting CoH are planning on making it a "business" in the sense of trying to earn any money from it. I could be wrong but I've never seen any discussions about that. The lack of making a "business" out of it likely goes hand-in-hand with the game not being updated in any way. It will be a static build on a static server which I guess is supposed to last as long as people have any continued interest in bygone nostalgia. On the other hand MWM ultimately has plans to make money with CoT which will entail continual updates and improvements. It will be a "live" game as opposed to CoH, which would effectively be a "zombie".
Second there is currently no time table for when/if CoH would actually be rebooted. For all we know it might take so long to negotiate the rights from NCsoft that even if it happens CoT may be up and running BEFORE CoH returns. But (again) even if CoH returns before CoT launches we will be in a situation where we'll have a static/zombie game versus the expectations of a new "live" game on the horizon.
No one would argue the point that many of us would give the rebooted CoH a spin and again I've already granted that in that scenario some people may decide to cling to CoH and never even give CoT a try. That could all happen - I think where we fundamentally disagree is exactly how many people would linger with CoH. I simply don't think the number of people who'd stay exclusively with CoH until it shuts down again is anywhere near the number you seem to be estimating (for all the reasons I've given here).
Third is the point I've already mentioned with the original CoH character data. All things being equal if players are going to have to restart from "scratch" logic suggests that players would more likely want to start over in a live new game than a dead, static one, As I mentioned before I know I wouldn't bother re-investing thousands of hours back into CoH no matter how long it existed before CoT. And regardless of the timing of CoH's mythical reboot chances are that CoT would outlast any revival it would enjoy. Put it this way: Which of the two games has a better chance to be active say 10 years from now? My money (is literally) on CoT for multiple reasons not the least of which would be the difficultly of maintaining a 20+ year old CoH baseline on 2024 hardware.
CoH is the past. CoT is the future. The "interest" players will have to want to move on to CoT will almost be self-generated given the unique circumstances of this situation. I really have no worries for MWM at least as far as whatever happens to CoH.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
You aren't even comparing apples and oranges here. The situation is entirely different between the Everquest situation and the situation with CoH/CoT.
The venerable Everquest example involves two live games that were both being maintained. Granny Smith or Red Gala?
The City situation is one of a game that was shot in the face and had the short - term memory portion of its brain obliterated, resulting in a complete loss of all character and account data, but there's still a pulse somehow after two years in a coma, so why not try this new treatment to revive coma patients to see if we can get this guy walking again...versus a fetus still in the womb. Sure, getting the old guy up and moving again would be a remarkable thing, and all of his friends would probably stop by to visit...but he's never going to be the same person and might even be living on borrowed time.
Coma patient versus fetus. Wine from 200 years ago versus flowering grape vine. Toy from the 1980's so full of gold plastic you're afraid to breathe on it versus molten plastic that hasn't even been pigmented. One's in a state of very delicate balance where anything that goes wrong could be a potential disaster, while the other is pure potential.
I may like my old house, but after three hurricanes, a flood, and an earthquake...I think I'll be moving.
The original Lady of Ysgard. -Virtue
[img]http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/203/c/5/Updated_Homage_by_Voldine.jpg[/img]
I could care less if CoT had the rights to used even one piece of the old CoH assets.
But I DO care about having that similar FEELING in CoT as I once had when playing CoH... and that you cant Patent or Copyright or Trademark.
At least I HOPE no one has found a way to. :/
[img]https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3714980096/h845AEE31/[/img]
I think that I24 thing is wishful thinking - unless it would be easy to turn that stuff on without the source code (and there is nothing in the lease agreement prohibiting modification) I think the most we could possibly hope for is what we had when the servers went dark.
Now - APR is hoping to implement the I24 changes into their effort - but that is something different from the potential leased CoH binary copy.
I don't think it's apples and oranges. You have two very similar games, one inspired by the other. The successor expands and refines on the older game's concepts both with new options made available by improved technology but also 20/20 hindsight redesign (very exciting redesign might I add). But the one thing it can never have at the very start, is 8 years of steady content and nostalgia building.
Herein lies the problem. MMOs need butts in servers. If we were to end up with old CoH, CoT, and ultimately new CoH in the form of the revival project running on CoT's engine and possibly other successors as well, we've split the community 3-? ways. So I guess the question is, is there enough community to do that? I think maybe there is but I'm starting to wonder what Nate's thoughts are on this issue because I get the impression he wants to see everybody have their cakes and share them too as much as I would. But I'm not sure how that's going to actually work.
I personally want CoH back. I want CoT to succeed. And I definitely want APR to succeed because the way that came about is one of the best stories in the history of gaming IMO and there are still many blanks to fill on that one but I know enough. And I think we can make these things happen without shooting ourselves in our collective feets but we're going to have to think very carefully as to how. I think ideally, if the COH IP ends up in safe, reasonable hands, the best bet would be to plan on ultimately bringing all these worlds back together again somehow or find some cooperative way to build a much larger community around this archipelago of superhero MMOs.
That's the rub, isn't it?
If the community decides it wants to splinter among the various games and play "neener neener, my game is better than your game", then they will do so.
If the community wants to remain the CoH-inspired community/family, only now with two, three, or four games to play within than umbrella, then they'll do that.
So, I would say that the real question is, are we a strong enough community not to split 3+ ways? We may not have the time and/or the money to play and support all the games, we can remain a community and support each other in spirit.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Who can say what will happen in the future? It's entirely possible that some of the successors will fail to make it to release for one reason or another. Then you have to consider the potential players outside of our currently small community - and this includes CoH vets who have no idea that there are things going on in the background to release a successor. CoT seems to have a bit of a leg up on this as it seems to get the most press - or at least the most name-drops (something that I hope continues).
Ultimately, it should all come down to who makes the best game. While each successor may have their adherents I would hope the better game would attract more players. Personally, I think CoT has the greatest potential and that's why I'm here. I'm also very interested in APR and would love to play that as well.
Setting aside your use of the word "best" instead of "worst", which I think you meant, this is one of the most finely crafted sentences I've seen on forums since Arcanaville.
My compliments to your eloquence.
CoyoteShaman
PS: I really miss Arcanaville...
If it helps, I felt that way at first also. But I've come round to the belief that the other products out there won't be terribly significant competition, and may (as others have suggested here) actually direct folks towards CoT for the best play experience. Just my opinion after comparing the progress CoT has made and the plans of the various projects.
Spurn all ye kindle.
What concerns me are the folks who might spend time rebuilding old alliances in CoH and then refusing to get with the new hotness of CoT because they just miss CoH like crazy and have their memories there. I suppose it depends on when/if CoH comes back before CoT is released, and how long. Without a sense of moving on between CoH and CoT, it might create the same hard feeling.
Meh. What do I know?
I understand where you're coming from (Cinnder and I have discussed this and I am sympathetic to your position), even if I'm in the camp that does not believe it really warrants concern. I believe that most people will find the reality much more palatable than the current situation, which does tend to leave people prone to giving more rein to their uncertainties, fears, and doubts.[color=red]*[/color] As Interdictor pointed out, those who are and will be new to the community are just as important as those of us who are already thoroughly invested in it.
The bottom line is that MWM cannot include anything from CoH in CoT. While the latter will be a spiritual (and perhaps even 'official') successor to the former, they will be separate games with distinct IPs. Any other approach would either require MWM to have halted all development to see if the deal to purchase the CoH IP goes through, or risk wasting a lot of resources on the assumption that they will obtain the rights to use the CoH IP.
There are people here (the RPers, in particular) who have already discussed and made plans on recreating their characters in CoT. Some are using explanations such as alternate dimensions to continue their characters' stories while, for others, the CoH chapter is closed and their characters will have no ties to Paragon City. So, yes, we already have people who are moving on as best suits them. No, some kind of export/import functionality is not possible.
[br]
[color=red]*[/color] I think it's fair to say that people have expressed as much doubt about the hows of CoH's return (including that they'll refuse to play CoH unless they can pick up where they left off) as anyone has about CoT. CoH's Nostalgic Armor of Rosyness +5 may not be quite as invulnerable as one may be inclined to believe.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
In which case we definitely don't want to be delaying City of Titans more than is necessary, would we?
(It isn't even due out for well over a year from now anyway.)
People have also mentioned [b]fragmenting[/b] the community - but City of Titans is in a much better position than City of Heroes to attract new audiences anyway - so in that respect, I'd say City of Titans has a rather big advantage going for it.
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
Thanks for the compliment. Arcanaville was a masterful wizard of the written word so any suggestion of relation to that greatness is much appreciated.
As far as whether I should have used "best" or "worst" goes I would agree that's debatable. It's obviously hard to spin sarcasm in these posts but it appeared to me that the main argument of those who believe that it would be bad for CoH and CoT to exist together is the fear that the two would negatively "compete" with each. Since I don't believe that's likely to happen I was trying to sarcastically disparage that notion as one that would be a weak illusion "at best". In reality I think the "worst" any competition between the two could manage would be of a fleeting and mostly inconsequential nature - a transitional illusion if you will.
Either way thanks for the response.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Clearly the fates of both CoH and CoT are not 100% certain at this point. I think all things being equal CoT is much more likely to happen and more likely to last longer into the future than a rebooted CoH ever could.
The point is that we know CoT is on the horizon regardless of what happens to CoH. If for whatever reason CoH reappears before CoT launches it will be up to the informed player to make the choice between jumping solidly back into what would amount to a nostalgic dead-end with CoH or to have the patience to wait for the future with CoT. Again I'm sure some would choose to stay with CoH, but those folks will only have themselves to blame when CoT surpasses them and likely outlasts them. Any "hard feelings" over losing CoH again could only be described as self-inflicted knowing that CoT is the logical alternative to wait for.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
A post by Arcana on the CoHTitan forums:
If, for whatever reason, MWM does not obtain the rights to use the CoH IP, could this create problems if players referenced anything from CoH in their back/origin stories? I presume this would effectively fall into the same category as copying the names or costumes of well known characters.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Pretty much.
Internally, we've settled for a generic term for referring to other games, "TOG" - Literally, "The Other Games." CoH, DCUO, CO, in theory even comic book derived figures, all go under "TOG" in some form or another.
We even had a nice backstory for generic'd figures.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
So, if you ever have to generic a character you could say that they've been... TOGgled.
/ sunglasses
// Yeeeeeeaaaaah!
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
/Tips Hat
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