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Release date

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Warlordokeer
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Release date

Do we have a release date or atleast a time for alphas?

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Fireheart
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No

No

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Warlordokeer wrote:
Warlordokeer wrote:

Do we have a release date or atleast a time for alphas?

Unfortunately, we don't have any information that would hint towards a release date at the moment. The latest tech update would suggested that we are closer than we were before, but we don't know how many other processes still need to be updated/completed before Issue 0 can launch. Keep patient and keep an eye out on MWM's social platforms and the forums for the latest information.

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https://cityoftitans.com

https://cityoftitans.com/forum/discuss-city-titans-primer Here's a good place to start for those kinds of questions


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Dark Cleric
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Short and long answer - no.

Short and long answer - no. I wouldn't expect it this year.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

No

Careful with that. I have had people jump down my throat for making a quick response like that where they read all kinds of angst or ill will into it. Don't let it happen to you.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

No

Simple, direct and spot on.

Not flame worthy. It may not be sugar coated to make it palatable to those with weak constitutions, but it is certainly not incorrect in any way, shape or form

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To expand, Warlordokeer,

To expand, Warlordokeer, there was a time when we had release estimates for the game and/or a beta for people to start testing. Unexpected delays kept pushing those back and people were upset about the estimates being wrong, until it got to the point where MWM was better off not making promises anymore. So that’s where we’re at now... We probably won’t get another date for anything until they are absolutely certain and that’s probably only going to happen shortly before.

So instead of saying “we will have our beta available around Christmas”, you’ll see an announcement on December 15 saying that it’s being released the following Tuesday. Or something like that. That’s what I’m expecting at least.

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

Short and long answer - no. I wouldn't expect it this year.

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For me, I am no longer

For me, I am no longer interested in reading any release dates from the developers. No offense to the volunteers putting in their time to get this game up and running but I've long since lost faith following delay after delay. I with them luck and will certainly try this game if it ever comes out, but with COH available again, COT doesn't really matter to me anymore.

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McGarnackle wrote:
McGarnackle wrote:

For me, I am no longer interested in reading any release dates from the developers. No offense to the volunteers putting in their time to get this game up and running but I've long since lost faith following delay after delay. I with them luck and will certainly try this game if it ever comes out, but with COH available again, COT doesn't really matter to me anymore.

I understand what you're saying, but the CoH situation isn't--and probably never will be--stable. And CoT is the only sucessor that is actually making what could be a good game.

So... we need to hope and pray they pull it off.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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McGarnackle wrote:
McGarnackle wrote:

For me, I am no longer interested in reading any release dates from the developers. No offense to the volunteers putting in their time to get this game up and running but I've long since lost faith following delay after delay. I with them luck and will certainly try this game if it ever comes out, but with COH available again, COT doesn't really matter to me anymore.

Okay.

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I feel like I'm 8 again

I feel like I'm 8 again taking that rrrrrrrrreeeeeeeaaaaaaaly long trip: "Are we ...??"
(This particular trip was well before the invention of Gameboy, where my back seat entertainment options included elbowing my brother and sister for more space in the middle or seeing how long it would take to get my feet knocked off the top of the bench seat in front of me. Oh, those were the days!)

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crazemary wrote:
crazemary wrote:

I feel like I'm 8 again taking that rrrrrrrrreeeeeeeaaaaaaaly long trip: "Are we ...??"
(This particular trip was well before the invention of Gameboy, where my back seat entertainment options included elbowing my brother and sister for more space in the middle or seeing how long it would take to get my feet knocked off the top of the bench seat in front of me. Oh, those were the days!)

On that really long trip (up to Vancouver BC and back down to SoCal) I read LoTR for the first time.
Then I started reading my brother's copy of Dune....

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Settle down back there, or I

Settle down back there, or I'm pulling this Wiki over.

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SoH has a date set for their

SoH has a date set for their CCT beta for late August. So there is that. Now, if they cancelled their slated date, ok.....I am jumping on the "lost hope train" lol.

I am more of a AAA kind of guy. Why? Because they are more transparent. They are obligated to put the work in and meet the goals (They are paid to). Volunteer projects get away with more because it is a volunteer project.

Game optimization? It is a volunteer project, we work on it in our free-time.

We passed our initial goal? It is a volunteer project, we work on it in our free-time.

Features we previously announced are not in game? It is a volunteer project, we work on it in our free-time.

Obviously I am not talking about CoT, because we have nothing tangible. Games like Phoenix Point can get away with broken promises. AAA companies cannot say this, or the uproar would be massive....

I like AAA due to the certainty. I know what I am getting, I know when. I want a piece of mind. "This is something we work on in our free-time" is not a piece of mind, but discouraging. It comes off as "This is not a priority, but something we will handle when we have some spare time."

SoH is a volunteer project, but you can tell they put their heart and soul into this. The progress they have made considering their failed KS and later appearance shows they have been working on this like it was a full-time job. They want something out there. They are working their A$$es off to do it, and it shows, because they can pin point estimated dates.

Now, SoH can make me eat all my words by going TBA after nailing a rough release date. It happens, I get it. This is probably why I am tolerate of CoT, I know things happen.

I truly feel like CoT is a 2022-2023 playable beta project. Which is fine, take your time. Don't be another VO.

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

I truly feel like CoT is a 2022-2023 playable beta project. Which is fine, take your time. Don't be another VO.

I agree and i also think the community at large would be far more positive, in general, if MWM made an official announcement saying as much.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:
Phararri wrote:

I truly feel like CoT is a 2022-2023 playable beta project. Which is fine, take your time. Don't be another VO.

I agree and i also think the community at large would be far more positive, in general, if MWM made an official announcement saying as much.

There was a huge amount of interest and hype in fall 2018, now, not so much. We are in a wait see time, and it will take a lot more to get people back on the train now. I am hoping we will see something soon, but for now I will just keep on playing COH and waiting.

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Ah yes, the transparency and

Ah yes, the transparency and certainty of AAA games. Like when they say there'll be no micro-transactions, then there are. Or that the micro-transactions will be "just cosmetic" and then they're not. Or when they design problems into the game to sell you the solutions. Or when they release a broken buggy mess. Or when you need a spread sheet to figure out what version of a game comes with what things. Or when they try to sell you preorder bonuses before announcing the game. Or when the trailer for the game is barely representative of the final product. Or when they tell you they need to have micro-transactions in the game because games cost more these days all the while having record earnings and laying off staff.

Yeah, I'll take a group of volunteers working on a project they believe in over the bloated greedy lying AAA game industry these days.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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https://massivelyop.com/2019

https://massivelyop.com/2019/08/12/into-the-super-verse-how-ship-of-heroes-is-winning-the-superhero-race/

I agree with this article. Their structure, this game is run by volunteers, but they are a dedicated well oiled machine. They are not treating this as a side project, nor using the excuse of "This is a volunteer project." Casey and company are dedicated, treated this as a full-time job.

If you are truly dedicated to something, be it sports, business, fitness, you must work at it as if it was your day-job. Those who don't, will never reach their desired goals, but always postpone them, or procrastinate.

SoH was dedicated to their fans, hence they worked their a$$es off. For that, they have my loyalty, because they displayed loyalty by giving the fans something tangible.

Once again, SoH can make me eat my words with a delay, or TBA. It happens.......It can very well happen....

On a side note, does anyone think VO should just shutdown shop and kindly inform their fans instead of dragging them along? It just feels like that project will never be serviceable for public use. We now have years worth of progress, and I have not been impressed nor seen major progress.

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I mean if it's the race to

I mean if it's the race to alpha VO won that like two years ago.


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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

SoH has a date set for their CCT beta for late August.

Why would anyone play Ship of Heroes when they can (now) play City of Heroes instead (for a more "authentic" experience of nostalgia)?

Phararri wrote:

am more of a AAA kind of guy. Why? Because they are more transparent.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Phararri wrote:

SoH has a date set for their CCT beta for late August.

Why would anyone play Ship of Heroes when they can (now) play City of Heroes instead (for a more "authentic" experience of nostalgia)?

Phararri wrote:

am more of a AAA kind of guy. Why? Because they are more transparent.

in terms of release dates? Yeah, I happen to know a little bit about that word.

Just a tad....

That gif was never funny btw, neither are TBA release dates after continuously slated dates. Those gifs are a cop out when someone has nothing of value to add. AAA games are transparent with their releases, this is nothing new.

You knew when Shadow-bringers was releasing before it released. They did not give the date of July, then say "Actually, we are TBA." There is this thing called publicity, and reputation. If SE took a volunteer project approach, their credibility would be severely damaged.

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just play CoH. now that the

just play CoH. now that the source code is open to the public, it will always be around.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Just to be clear. The COH

Just to be clear. The COH source is not open to the public. Is it out in the public? Yes. These are not the same things. At the moment, as far as I know, NCsoft still holds the rights to that IP and the source code. Using that code is technically stealing. However, that may change soon. How it will change, or when it will change are still up in the air.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

Just to be clear. The COH source is not open to the public. Is it out in the public? Yes. These are not the same things. At the moment, as far as I know, NCsoft still holds the rights to that IP and the source code. Using that code is technically stealing. However, that may change soon. How it will change, or when it will change are still up in the air.

Going to split a hair here, with the understanding that I'm no lawyer. My understanding is it's more that PROFITTING from the code is stealing, as NCSoft does indeed still own it. So I would recommend to those playing on private servers to ask if it's a non profit or an LLC. The latter can go up in a legal puff of prosecution at NCSoft's whim and many are not aware.

Speaking of aware, is everyone playing CoH aware there are at least 6 groups running public servers? Now MWM has asked that we not use their forums to instruct how to access CoH servers for legal concerns and I fully support respecting MWM. But if a curious person wants to PM their facebook contact info, I CAN use facebook's systems without issue or disrespect.

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

AAA games are transparent with their releases, this is nothing new.

Except for the games that are pushed back indefinitely and then quietly cancelled.

Or do you mean when a AAA company sets an unrealistic release date then work their devs half to death to get it out on time then upon release it's a broken buggy mess that needs to be patched either day one or within a short span of time from release?

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

Just to be clear. The COH source is not open to the public. Is it out in the public? Yes. These are not the same things. At the moment, as far as I know, NCsoft still holds the rights to that IP and the source code. Using that code is technically stealing. However, that may change soon. How it will change, or when it will change are still up in the air.

The point is, its out. People have easy access to it. If for some reason one of them gets shut down, another will open. It honestly can't be stopped now, especially if these people running the servers aren't making money off it.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

Phararri
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Phararri wrote:

AAA games are transparent with their releases, this is nothing new.

Except for the games that are pushed back indefinitely and then quietly cancelled.

Or do you mean when a AAA company sets an unrealistic release date then work their devs half to death to get it out on time then upon release it's a broken buggy mess that needs to be patched either day one or within a short span of time from release?

When games are pushed back, they state they are pushed back to a later scheduled date.

When they are cancelled, they tell the fans that this game is no longer in development.

Speaking of mmo, Capcom did it with the Megaman MMO. Plain as day, as transparent as water, the game was cancelled. Did MM fans like it? No. Was it clarity, as it pertains to the game's release? Yes.

When I say transparent, I am referring to clarity, be it good or bad.

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Phararri wrote:

AAA games are transparent with their releases, this is nothing new.

Except for the games that are pushed back indefinitely and then quietly cancelled.

Or do you mean when a AAA company sets an unrealistic release date then work their devs half to death to get it out on time then upon release it's a broken buggy mess that needs to be patched either day one or within a short span of time from release?

When games are pushed back, they state they are pushed back to a later scheduled date.

When they are cancelled, they tell the fans that this game is no longer in development.

Speaking of mmo, Capcom did it with the Megaman MMO. Plain as day, as transparent as water, the game was cancelled. Did MM fans like it? No. Was it clarity, as it pertains to the game's release? Yes.

When I say transparent, I am referring to clarity, be it good or bad.

Ohh, so like if a game has a tenative release date and the devs fail to meet that then tell their fans exactly why and that they'll give them another release date when they have a better idea of when it will release? Like, you know, transparency and clarity, good or bad.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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To me, regardless of anything

To me, regardless of anything else, SoH visually looks so bad and the lore is so offputting, I don't think I could play it even if it were the only option.

SoH may be winning, but what rough beast slouches towards the finish line to be born?

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

To me, regardless of anything else, SoH visually looks so bad and the lore is so offputting, I don't think I could play it even if it were the only option.

SoH may be winning, but what rough beast slouches towards the finish line to be born?

Im not really a fan of their lore so far but the videos they have put out look at least as good as what we've seen here. Better, imo. CoT's running animation is the worst I've seen in a game and their model's musculature is so unnatural looking i cant get past it. The video of the caped guy running around the island...his arms and shoulders look so unnatural and botched its cringe. But its so pre-alpha im not worried about it...same with SoH. Both teams have a long time before full-game release, plenty of time to fix and fine-tune those things.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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And i think i read in an

And i think i read in an other (outdated) post that they'll have a specific person who will take care of this part (body animation). I can't remember where i read that but i have this memory in mind, or something like that. Moreover, i remind they purchased a motion capture system or they wanted to buy one. I really think this part is not complete at all. As you said, i'm not not worry too and i think we'll have a good surprise for #1 :)


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TC I think you are recalling

TC I think you are recalling when they had a dev from another team with a lot of experience come in a tweak their model to fix/improve the morphs and rigging so that it would be easier and smoother to implement animations. I'm not sure that they hired someone specifically to do animations. However there is a lot of turnover behind the scenes. I think I can recall of at least three stories where a dev is referenced that came and left without so much as a howdy-doo to the forums. I know they have a large library of animations to draw upon, purchased from the UE Store. I think they also purchased some software (again from the UE store) that would allow them to morph animations together, like jump and fire weapon, that sort of thing. But there is still a lot of cleaning up to do to make they fit our character models rigging. I do know there is a dev who has worked on animations, but may also be working on some other things. This may be one of their goals for Second Chance to hire a professional animator to accelerate animations and clean up existing. Their plans for Second Chance are of course something held tight to the chest at the moment.

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The development team has

The development team has demonstrated a consistent work ethic and professional behavior, to my knowledge. That is why I donated at the basic level, to support their good faith effort to let me play a finished game.

Further investment depends on many factors likely best covered in other posts. Simply, I am actively opposed to building the real estate portfolio of Epic Games or see COT shut down in a few years because other Tencent players are deemed more profitable.

I love Homecoming because even monthly server expenses are donation based. All content is available to every player equally. With moderate allowance for overachievers though IO "min-maxing" and the like.

And an environment highly tolerant of farming. All of it means lots of strong teams and generous people.

In COT that would mean crowd funding almost all game development. Once paid for, additions become part of the general release. Game buy in stays flat rate and retains some significant access level.

The devs face many difficult choices in this massive undertaking. The addition of highly skilled folks might be needed for the same reasons as those calling for license of the Unreal engine. But I would rather see much less game initially and over time, than a WoW with superheroes.

Titans are the legacy of heroes!

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Came to check the status of

Came to check the status of this project, since I feel like its been bloody AGES since a notable update. Forums seems just about dead. No one's talking anymore. Should I just give up on this? Seems like everyone else, including the devs, are.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Came to check the status of this project, since I feel like its been bloody AGES since a notable update. Forums seems just about dead. No one's talking anymore. Should I just give up on this? Seems like everyone else, including the devs, are.

We’re still working as we can.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We’re still working as we can.

That doesn’t inspire much confidence.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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At the risk of putting words

At the risk of putting words in Tannim's proverbial mouth, I believe what he was pointing out is that it's business as usual. Being a volunteer effort, they have always been working as they can.

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This is the longest they've

This is the longest they've gone without any kind of official communication. Apparently something was 'close' a few weeks ago, as in they were hoping for an update by Feb month end, who knows what happened to that. Hard to have a valid opinion when they don't really tell us anything.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

This is the longest they've gone without any kind of official communication. Apparently something was 'close' a few weeks ago, as in they were hoping for an update by Feb month end, who knows what happened to that. Hard to have a valid opinion when they don't really tell us anything.

I would have thought what with all the extra time at home due to lockdowns and such, we would have seen some great strides in progress. Instead it’s been the slowest it’s ever been.

I kinda wish they’d just say “sorry folks it didn’t work out” instead of dragging things along for another 5 years because wE’Re a VOluNtEEr pROjeCt

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

I would have thought what with all the extra time at home due to lockdowns and such, we would have seen some great strides in progress. Instead it’s been the slowest it’s ever been.

I kinda wish they’d just say “sorry folks it didn’t work out” instead of dragging things along for another 5 years because wE’Re a VOluNtEEr pROjeCt

Extra Time At Home: Really? Your proof that they have extra time at home is . . . ? How many of the volunteers are front line workers? How much Extra Time do they have?

Also, most of the progress information is made available on Discord. Sadly, I don't do Discord (my son does), so I too lurk here waiting for Official Updates on the Official Forums.

They are working, sooooooooo sorry it's not to your satisfaction. HEY! I know! Why don't you volunteer and help them go faster instead of sitting in your armchair quarterbacking?

Snarky, I know. Couldn't help myself.

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StellarAgent wrote:
StellarAgent wrote:

Extra Time At Home: Really? Your proof that they have extra time at home is . . . ? How many of the volunteers are front line workers? How much Extra Time do they have?

Also, most of the progress information is made available on Discord. Sadly, I don't do Discord (my son does), so I too lurk here waiting for Official Updates on the Official Forums.

They are working, sooooooooo sorry it's not to your satisfaction. HEY! I know! Why don't you volunteer and help them go faster instead of sitting in your armchair quarterbacking?

Snarky, I know. Couldn't help myself.

I get what you're trying to do here. But if you're really going to take that position after all this time, I'm not sure what to say to you. What makes you think that *any* of them are front line workers? What are the chances that there's a nurse that's moonlighting as a game developer?

If they're sharing info on Discord, that's great for people who use that. I'm sure there are a lot that don't. It's the developers responsibility that ALL backers get the same information, across all platforms. And look, yeah almost 8 years of development with very little to show for it is not to my satisfaction, and it shouldn't be to yours either. But you do you man.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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I have never argued that we

I have never argued that we should be seeing stuff faster; they can only work as fast and as much as they can being volunteer. Communication seems to be something they keep saying they are going to work on and be more pro-active with but so far that has not happened, in my opinion. Yea, they respond to people on discord but its like 90% unrelated to CoT; mainly star trek references, or comics, etc. Ever since the release of the AB their communication has dropped noticeably, far less frequent updates of any kind, and relatively no real use of the banner, which is supposed to be for announcement but I can't remember the last time I've actually seen an announcement on it. Again, I'm not arguing they need to be giving us meaningful updates as frequently as they used to but at least communication of some kind. Nearing the 3 month mark without a single peep, when now is supposedly the time when they want people paying closer attention to the game...is counter-intuitive. Appearance, real or not, can make or break this game that is already so fragile and in need of support, and radio silence gives an appearance that things do not bode well.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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I'm a front line worker.

I'm a front line worker.

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We are very happy to respond

We are very happy to respond here as well as discord - we can communicate any time in addition to our updates. If it seems quiet, feel free to ask and we will chime in.

Yes, it's been quiet for a while. In this instance, the truth is we have been working feverishly on some big items that take some work. There is, in fact, a LOT of work happening right now behind the curtain and we do anticipate sharing about it soon, but we are making sure the work is ready before sharing it.

We understand the frustration with waiting, but we are very, very excited about the progress that is happening and looking forward to sharing with you when we are ready.

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

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Red_Warlock wrote:
Red_Warlock wrote:

We understand the frustration with waiting, but we are very, very excited about the progress that is happening and looking forward to sharing with you when we are ready.

The frustration is not with waiting; at least not in my case. I wouldn't even use the word frustration in my case, but 'the thing' is just a lack of official communication. I mean in almost 3 months there has been no communication on the status of the next update. Again, I'm not talking about giving us a set date or specific details on it...but why don't you guys use that announcement banner to keep people updated? "Hey guys, it's now been a month since the last update so you are probably curious about when the next update is. This one is going to take us a bit longer so unfortunately we won't have one this month either but it's one of our bigger updates so check back in a few weeks and we'll have another status update if it hasn't been dropped by then." It really IS NOT that difficult to communicate something to that effect in the announcement banner to people you are asking money from. It literally comes across as you're either too lazy to use the banner, just don't care about keeping your community informed, or you're that disorganized as a volunteer group that we really can't be expecting anything out of this anyway. I don't think any of those 3 are true, at least I hope not, but that's how it comes across...especially to people that are newer to learning about this project.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:
Red_Warlock wrote:

We understand the frustration with waiting, but we are very, very excited about the progress that is happening and looking forward to sharing with you when we are ready.

The frustration is not with waiting; at least not in my case. I wouldn't even use the word frustration in my case, but 'the thing' is just a lack of official communication. I mean in almost 3 months there has been no communication on the status of the next update. Again, I'm not talking about giving us a set date or specific details on it...but why don't you guys use that announcement banner to keep people updated? "Hey guys, it's now been a month since the last update so you are probably curious about when the next update is. This one is going to take us a bit longer so unfortunately we won't have one this month either but it's one of our bigger updates so check back in a few weeks and we'll have another status update if it hasn't been dropped by then." It really IS NOT that difficult to communicate something to that effect in the announcement banner to people you are asking money from. It literally comes across as you're either too lazy to use the banner, just don't care about keeping your community informed, or you're that disorganized as a volunteer group that we really can't be expecting anything out of this anyway. I don't think any of those 3 are true, at least I hope not, but that's how it comes across...especially to people that are newer to learning about this project.

Very understandable. So, we will take that note for upcoming weeks and just know that we are preparing our next update to release very soon, but just working through a few fine tuning issues to make sure we are ready to go.

Thanks again for the honest feedback - we are working to make an amazing game for you all and we will take note of this conversation and internally figure out how we can be better at staying in communication more regularly.

Environmental Artist, PR Editor

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

I'm a front line worker.

I have been too, while we're keeping track :p


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To add to this discussion...

To add to this discussion... I constantly check Twitter, but the last tweet is from Jan 8th. This, as mentioned earlier, can give the appearance that the whole thing is dead or dying.

I would suggest posting something at least once a month, bare minimum. It doesn't have to be a major update or anything, just something that shows the team is still active.

Now I'll go back to lurking, as typing forum posts on my phone is rather tedious. (My comp died on Dec, haven't replaced it yet)

Until after now...

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

I'm a front line worker.

Are you one of the programmers?

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Irrelevant question.

Irrelevant question.

I'm one of the ones responsible for parsing all of their ongoing work into updates.

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Oh, I meant front-line

Oh, I meant front-line healthcare worker....


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DesViper wrote:
DesViper wrote:

Oh, I meant front-line healthcare worker....

Specifics don't matter. What matters is that many of us have had more to worry about this past year.

When I first joined the team, I had time to set up internal and external Discords, keep Facebook and Twitter active, hassle "the programmers" for details on things, and help JWBullfrog work on updates- which he's had to do alone now, while being extra busy himself.

Now I'm reduced to posting this message from a phone on the go.

Not everyone gets to treat this last year like a vacation.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

Irrelevant question.

I'm one of the ones responsible for parsing all of their ongoing work into updates.

It’s not irrelevant at all. There’s a lot more for a programmer to do than a forum moderator or someone who “parses”.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

Specifics don't matter...Not everyone gets to treat this last year like a vacation.

What a horrible thing to say. But to be honest I’m not surprised it’s coming from you. The more you post, the more I get the impression you’re one of those people that exaggerates their importance.

Specifics - in this case - absolutely matter, if you’re going to use excuses for not doing what you signed up for.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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I'd just like to thank all

I'd just like to thank all the volunteers who continue to work on this game. Obviously there is a wide variety of circumstances that people are experiencing in relation to the pandemic, so I appreciate any time any of you are still putting in, especially if you've been dealing with extra stress of any kind over the past year. And if you're also doing any sort of front-line work, from healthcare to grocery stores etc, thank you for that as well.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:
warlocc wrote:

Irrelevant question.

I'm one of the ones responsible for parsing all of their ongoing work into updates.

It’s not irrelevant at all. There’s a lot more for a programmer to do than a forum moderator or someone who “parses”.

Yes, and they're busy doing it, instead of putting together updates.

Zerohour wrote:
warlocc wrote:

Specifics don't matter...Not everyone gets to treat this last year like a vacation.

What a horrible thing to say. But to be honest I’m not surprised it’s coming from you. The more you post, the more I get the impression you’re one of those people that exaggerates their importance.

Specifics - in this case - absolutely matter, if you’re going to use excuses for not doing what you signed up for.

You're welcome to volunteer.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

Yes, and they're busy doing it, instead of putting together updates.

So what's the relevance of you telling us you're a front line worker then? We're not talking about you, we never were.

warlocc wrote:

You're welcome to volunteer.

To make snidy comments to backers instead of being helpful? That's not me. You clearly have that covered.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I'd just like to thank all the volunteers who continue to work on this game. Obviously there is a wide variety of circumstances that people are experiencing in relation to the pandemic, so I appreciate any time any of you are still putting in, especially if you've been dealing with extra stress of any kind over the past year. And if you're also doing any sort of front-line work, from healthcare to grocery stores etc, thank you for that as well.

Thank you very much, Cinnder. The assertion that the pandemic magically gave people on our team a bounty of free time couldn’t be further from the truth.

At first I thought I would have extra time as my main job is working with urban high school students and my drive time to and from schools and their homes being negated. I’ve ended with not only accounting for all the commutes, but have put in more hours now than before, overseeing 3 separate initiatives for my team.

This, on top of having 2 kids that are distance learning, one who is deaf and hard of hearing. The effort it takes to help him attend to class over a lap top is much greater and he misses out on a lot of key information. As a result, I spend more time going over assignments with him, often having to reteach the lesson of that day to help fill in the gaps.

My wife being a teacher has been putting in more hours than she did before too. Some days I see her for lunch and dinner and we live in the same home...

Most people on our team have maintained their jobs, started née jobs, or have been dealing with a high degree of chaos over the past year. If I said half of the crap that some of our team has gone through, people would think I was lying due to the amount of craziness that has gone on for some. The fact that we continue to work through all the adversity we face as a studio of unpaid volunteers, I find, to be quite admirable.

I, for one, am very proud to be able to work with our team. Sure, sometime we have a bit of disfunction, but we always work through it. There has been a lot of lessons learned about the nature of our studio.

I openly admit to the fact we had many things go wrong before they went right. And we are still far from “perfect” in many regards. We all know that we have a lot to prove.

Quite honestly, if I were on the outside, it would be difficult to fathom how and why it takes so long for progress. But if you’ve ever managed a large project (I used to do project management), and just did the math on work hours, it would put a lot in perspective.


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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Then I started reading my brother's copy of Dune....

Hmmm, It's just about time for me to be reading Dune again. It's the sort of thing one should do every other year or so.

No, I don't get bored of it.

Be Well!
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I haven't read Dune for years

I haven't read Dune for years, wish I had a copy.

For me it is Battlefield Earth I do evey couple of years. Was really surprised how much I enjoy it.

Which reminds me I really need to decide between rereading Harry Potter of the Dark Tower. Ooh or maybe Feist's Magician saga. I do seem to have a surplus of time again.

Hi. I'm Hope.

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It's ignorant that someone

It's ignorant that someone would think the pandemic added free time to everyone's schedule. It's not even an issue of the "importance" of your job.

I am staff working in higher education. Due to budgetary cutbacks from the pandemic my department went from seven people down to two people (well, 3 people but the other full-time member died a couple months ago).
It's just myself and one part-time employee now. So all of the projects the other staff would be working on are primarily my job now in addition to the work I was already doing, with the part-timer helping when he's in the office. I'm working more hours now than before the pandemic.

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.Foresight wrote:
.Foresight wrote:

It's ignorant that someone would think the pandemic added free time to everyone's schedule. It's not even an issue of the "importance" of your job.

What’s ignorant about it? Unemployment is higher than it’s been for years. People are working from home. Business has been cutting back. There are less projects happening. If all this doesn’t equal more free time for the average person, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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We're all gonna be in our 60

We're all gonna be in our 60's when the game comes out.
But then... I am 59 now.

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Some Yahoo wrote:
Some Yahoo wrote:

We're all gonna be in our 60's when the game comes out.
But then... I am 59 now.

I'm only 50 but I'm starting to wonder if your statement won't be true for me as well...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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A road map would be nice. I

A road map would be nice. I think that we have all been really, really patient. We're all invested. We all want the game to come out and succeed, and no one wants to be the doom-sayer.

But here's the thing: this game met its Kickstarter funding date eight years ago. A LOT of us - myself included - pledged money to the project. Some people put put in TEN GRAND, for something that had an estimated delivery date of November of 2015. I think when that date came and went no one was too upset. The devs were communicative and we knew it was a hard project.

But the KS closed eight years ago and the estimated DELIVERY date passed more than half a decade ago! I don't think it's all that unreasonable to say "hey, half a decade after the estimated deliver date, could we maybe get an idea of what the plan here is? A reasonable forecast? We've got an island to run around in, when can we expect content? Something to interact with? More areas? Something resembling a GAME?

Honestly, my feelings are less "I'm super pissed that you haven't given me a game yet" and more "I'm super concerned I'm never going to GET a game." I don't want an apology, I don't want money back, I just want a little bit of my faith restored that this is still a thing that's actually going to happen.

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WraithTDK wrote:
WraithTDK wrote:

A road map would be nice. I think that we have all been really, really patient...

I couldn’t have said it better. And even WITH all this extra time, I’m super concerned about the graphics and the quality of the stuff we have seen.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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WraithTDK wrote:
WraithTDK wrote:

A road map would be nice. I think that we have all been really, really patient. We're all invested. We all want the game to come out and succeed, and no one wants to be the doom-sayer.

But here's the thing: this game met its Kickstarter funding date eight years ago. A LOT of us - myself included - pledged money to the project. Some people put put in TEN GRAND, for something that had an estimated delivery date of November of 2015. I think when that date came and went no one was too upset. The devs were communicative and we knew it was a hard project.

But the KS closed eight years ago and the estimated DELIVERY date passed more than half a decade ago! I don't think it's all that unreasonable to say "hey, half a decade after the estimated deliver date, could we maybe get an idea of what the plan here is? A reasonable forecast? We've got an island to run around in, when can we expect content? Something to interact with? More areas? Something resembling a GAME?

Honestly, my feelings are less "I'm super pissed that you haven't given me a game yet" and more "I'm super concerned I'm never going to GET a game." I don't want an apology, I don't want money back, I just want a little bit of my faith restored that this is still a thing that's actually going to happen.

We posted the closest thing we plan to have as a roadmap back in 2019. We also recapped 2020 with a look ahead to this year

We have been posting more updates on various parts of the project since.

Zerohour wrote:

’m super concerned about the graphics and the quality of the stuff we have seen.

That is because you don't understand what you're looking at. Early builds in games aren't optimized for visuals nor performance. All of that actually takes place during beta. We also have a target for backwards compatibility we need to keep in mind.

With regards to hitting the KS goal and even the Second Chance funding. realize that is typically less than 1% of a standard studio budget for an MMO. Which also typically takes 5-6 years with a team of 200 people working full time.

We have a quarter of the team size working part of the time. We've had discussions at length of our short comings as a studio and have even made public apologies on these forums and our discord.

What I can say is that our team continues to work steadily. We haven't given up. Check out Artstong's channel for just an example of one of our devs who works in his spare time. He works and has a family to care for. I'll leave the details about the commitment his family requires of him up to him to share.

I myself work 30 hours a week, am the primary care taker of my family's house hold, with 2 kids. One of which is deaf and hard of hearing and requires much more assistance with mainstream schooling than your typical hearing student. I still put in time to work on this game. Often at the risk of gaining the ire of my significant other. I just passed up on a job offer that would have allowed me to bring in an extra 1k / month to my household as it would have required me to give up most of my week day time to work on this for free...

If you've ever managed a large group of volunteers for a long-term, multifaceted project, then it shouldn't be difficult to understand the vast number of obstacles entailed in managing it. Now take that an have your work place be completely virtual with staff having different hours of availability across multiple time zones. Volunteers can let a project like this take a backseat to more pertinent life issues far quicker than someone who is a paid employee would. This is part of the reason why we don't give dates on when we expect things to get done. This was one of the hard lessons learned along the way for our team.

Our team is regularly at work. So much of what we do is "behind the scenes" stuff that doesn't look like anything major until pieces fit together. We are active on our dev discord, constantly helping one another out navigating issues, troubleshooting, posting team updates on what we are working on. Yes, this is all internal stuff that isn't fit for general view. Sometimes PR wants to grab a piece and show it anyway. Like they did with our under the hood snap shot.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Sometimes PR wants to grab a piece and show it anyway.

To piggy back on this- I'm one of the most vocal proponents of showing more. Tannim and I have argued a couple times about showing stuff off. I have no problem admitting that I'm sitting on releasing at least one update we couldn't agree on.

One thing he's absolutely right about is that every time we show off unfinished work, people have no idea what it is they're looking at. They treat it like the content Activision puts into commercials for already finished games. A great example is the videos we released the other day, attached to the travel power update. It was incredible how many comments I had to filter through saying "It took you 8 years to buy some animations off the Unreal Marketplace?! This is a scam." They didn't read or understand the update at all. For every 5 people like our supporters on these forums that want to see that work getting done, there's 2-3 that have no idea what they're looking at and give me hell in the comments and direct messages.

And of course, so many don't understand how much different we are from an actively paid studio, as Tannim said. That 2015 release date was a pipe dream at best. I've said this in a few places, and I'll say it here now; The original team that put together the Kickstarter had no idea what they were getting into. They should have aimed much, much, much higher in price and much further out for a date. Still, with all that in mind, I can't see the current team quitting until this game is released, and these days progress is actually very steady. We've got a couple good volunteers right now that really helped bring some things together recently.

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I could be wrong but I don't

I could be wrong but I don't think it's fair to continually make comparisons to studio's with hundreds of millions in funding and hundreds of full-time, paid employees. Unless your claiming that this game is going to be on-par with games that they deliver, its just not accurate. Even if funding was taken out of the equation, your 5-6 year duration with 200 employees would equate to how many years/decades for you guys with the few part-time volunteers you have? If you are adamant about continually reminding us how long MMOs take from established studios with money then, really, all I see is this game has another 20 years, minimum, based on the amount of man hours you put in compared to those studios.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

One thing he's absolutely right about is that every time we show off unfinished work, people have no idea what it is they're looking at.

I'm sure it's always tough for MWM to determine whether its ever worth showing off "work in progress" to people who'll take it to represent a "finished product". You have people screaming at you to see anything just to prove you guys are making progress but when you barely have anything that's in a state that's ready to be shown you're basically damned if you do and damned if you don't.

While I enjoy any information MWM freely provides I've never -demanded- to see anything related to this game. One of the benefits of working a 30 year career in software engineering is that I know it's not worth yelling at you to constantly show us stuff. I know full well you often can't show anyone anything until you've integrated things together. Even if you could things change so much during development that anything you could have shown us a few years ago (or even a few months ago) probably wouldn't look anything like the final version is going to look anyway.

Sure I've had "disagreements" with various Devs and other players over how this game should be handled. But most of my arguments are based on fundamental design policies or goals... I honestly don't care if a given GUI button ends up being red or blue at this point.

And sure I've joked about whether or not I'll still be alive when this game is launched. But when you get to be 50 you get to start saying things like that. Consider it a friendly reminder that we'd ALL like to see this game launched sooner than later.

Bottomline I am slightly disappointed that the game is not ready yet. That's simply the truth. But I also know that specifically yelling at MWM to "get it done" or accusing them of some kind of multi-year vaporware scam isn't going to help MWM finish the game one way or the other. In the meantime I'll just focus at yelling at MWM about other things besides "release dates". ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

I could be wrong but I don't think it's fair to continually make comparisons to studio's with hundreds of millions in funding and hundreds of full-time, paid employees. Unless your claiming that this game is going to be on-par with games that they deliver, its just not accurate. Even if funding was taken out of the equation, your 5-6 year duration with 200 employees would equate to how many years/decades for you guys with the few part-time volunteers you have? If you are adamant about continually reminding us how long MMOs take from established studios with money then, really, all I see is this game has another 20 years, minimum, based on the amount of man hours you put in compared to those studios.

Well considering the body of work spanning across all the MMOs that have been made, the range of quality is actually quite vast. I’m fairly certain we will fall within that range.

20 years is quite a hyperbolic statement to make though.

I used to be a project manager for a Fortune 500 company working with our 3 largest departments, multiple managers and VPs. I’ve estimated the man hours required, the man hours “saved” by not making an “in-house” engine and having access to assets.

You will note we aren’t just “flipping” market place assets either. We have customized the ones we have purchased, even working with the creators from time to time to incorporate the changes we needed.

That being said, the important thing to note is that we are working on the game.


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Lothic
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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

I could be wrong but I don't think it's fair to continually make comparisons to studio's with hundreds of millions in funding and hundreds of full-time, paid employees. Unless your claiming that this game is going to be on-par with games that they deliver, its just not accurate. Even if funding was taken out of the equation, your 5-6 year duration with 200 employees would equate to how many years/decades for you guys with the few part-time volunteers you have? If you are adamant about continually reminding us how long MMOs take from established studios with money then, really, all I see is this game has another 20 years, minimum, based on the amount of man hours you put in compared to those studios.

TBH while I've generally remained "curiously optimistic" about whether or not this grassroots style of MMO development could work I've often wondered if it would ultimately have to be measured in the time scale of decades rather than years. I think even MWM would have to admit the only way to trade-off "lack of money" and "lack of manpower" is to "add massive amounts of extra time" to the development process. The question of course is whether requiring that huge amount of additional time for development will be feasible in the long run.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

warlocc
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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

I could be wrong but I don't think it's fair to continually make comparisons to studio's with hundreds of millions in funding and hundreds of full-time, paid employees.

That goes both ways. We only ever bring it up any time someone holds us to the same standards as full time, funded studios.

Also, have you seen the bulk of what they deliver? Buggy "remasters"? Beating those standards these days isn't that hard.

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This isn't the first time I

This isn't the first time I've heard game developers talk about how they use much simpler, basic assets while actually developing. They're trying to focus on functionality, and in addition to dealing with the increased system overhead of code that's not yet fully optimized, it's distracting to have to worry about making things as pretty as possible. I've also heard other devs talk about the frustration with releasing footage and being stuck with the options of:

1. Not releasing enough and having the player base be angry about lack of updates

2. Releasing what's actually being worked on, and have the player base asking why it looks like crap.

3. Releasing something that looks finished, but having to divert precious development time to make a pretty PR video.

So yea, I get it. That's fair. I think MWM has done a fine job of avoiding the dreaded "radio silence," and I'm not stressing over the aesthetics. I've just reached the point where it's difficult to be patient anymore. And when you're eight years out and from a game with an estimated delivery date of three years, and you still don't even have a date you can mark on your calendar and count down the days, weeks, or even months; that's a difficult pill. It's hard to look forward to something when you have no idea how far forward it is.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

I could be wrong but I don't think it's fair to continually make comparisons to studio's with hundreds of millions in funding and hundreds of full-time, paid employees.

That goes both ways. We only ever bring it up any time someone holds us to the same standards as full time, funded studios.

Also, have you seen the bulk of what they deliver? Buggy "remasters"? Beating those standards these days isn't that hard.

Cyberpunk 2077 comes to mind. Based on all the articles and previews, I was really looking forward to that game. I'm glad I held off and did not pre-order. It still looks like they will eventually deliver the game that was advertised but on launch it was short on many promised content/systems and not nearly as deep a game as one would have thought based on pre-launch news.

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

One thing he's absolutely right about is that every time we show off unfinished work, people have no idea what it is they're looking at.

If you want people to NOTICE something ... it helps to explain what you're wanting them to pay attention to.
Better yet, go out of your way to point the thing out. Point out what you're wanting people to notice in a way that eliminates the opportunities to misunderstand the context of what you're asking for in the way of feedback.

Things like ... "Ignore the construction of the avatar for the moment (shapes, textures, etc.) and simply observe HOW IT MOVES through the simplified in environment. This demo is to show the fluidity of the motions over uneven terrain."

If all you're wanting to show off is the movement, that's all you need to be saying.
You want to demonstrate one aspect ... you explain what that aspect is (the movements in this example) ... without needing EVERYTHING™ to be integrated into a final look dev type of ready for live patching next week kind of scenario.

Lothic wrote:

I think even MWM would have to admit the only way to trade-off "lack of money" and "lack of manpower" is to "add massive amounts of extra time" to the development process.

In order to engineer/produce ANYTHING you require three ingredients.
Time
Tools
Tech Manuals

Note that "money" qualifies under the heading of Tools in this context (because money IS a tool to use).
When you can only make use of 2 out of 3 ...

warlocc wrote:

Also, have you seen the bulk of what they deliver? Buggy "remasters"? Beating those standards these days isn't that hard.

{belch}
Warcraft 3 debacle
{/belch}


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
warlocc wrote:

One thing he's absolutely right about is that every time we show off unfinished work, people have no idea what it is they're looking at.

If you want people to NOTICE something ... it helps to explain what you're wanting them to pay attention to.
Better yet, go out of your way to point the thing out. Point out what you're wanting people to notice in a way that eliminates the opportunities to misunderstand the context of what you're asking for in the way of feedback.

See, that's the problem. At least 50% of the people on the Internet do not read more than the headline. Full stop. In the case of a video, they don't read at all.
We could edit the videos and add some captions and stuff, but most of us are terrible at it and it looks incredibly amateur- sometimes worse than just showing the raw footage. We do have a decent video editor, but he's ridiculous busy most of the time. We'd never get stuff out to people in any kind of reasonable time frame.

Which brings us back to the original problem- We have to choose between showing off unfinished work, or taking months (or years) to finish it, or taking weeks out of working on it to make it look good.

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I think you guys are just too

I think you guys are just too afraid of those people, but you haven't made a case why you should be. So what if half the people don't understand? What do you suppose the repurcussions are of a few people who think it looks horrible?

Don't you realize those same people will be flabbergasted later when it looks great?

People who have put money down do care and they're your target audience, right?

I deal with the same issues when I have to put status presentations together for customers. All the executives want me to adjust the numbers to make the program look good. But I've been there so many times... when you've improved and want to say it, your numbers don't show it because they don't show any improvement because you never showed truly how bad you had been.

MWM would be well served to show honest working status, and if some of the segments haven't done any work in the past month, show that too. But be honest. Saying nothing , in my opinion, is far more damaging than showing something people criticize. Seriously, what do you think would happen besides some negative comments? What harm are negative comments? Will they effect the revenue? Will they effect the number of future subscribers? I say neither. Because when the game is ACTUALLY ready for the retail market, you'll have a whole fresh set of viewers and talking heads all hyping it. ...unless you don't expect to be proud of the final product. If you don't actually expect to be proud of the final product, if you don't actually expect the final product will show a marked improvement over these WIP glimses, then I understand why you wouldn't want the negative comments now, because those same people would be able to say "see, I told you so" and the game would be lambasted.

Edit: A good example of openness in development is Camelot Unchained. They've been showing all their dirty laundry all along, and they spin it as an opportunity to get imput from their customer base. A lot of the customers are brutal with their feedback, but they are outweighed by the customers who totally understand. I think you would have the same experience. Because of NDA, I can't share any of it, unfortunately.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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With all do respect

With all do respect Huckleberry, I disagree. In the MMO circle, showing off poor (I profess work) creates more of an uphill battle than it does good.

Not only do general people post negatively about what you’ve shown, it gets other people THINKING negatively about your game. It’s happened many times where people won’t even click on articles or watch reviews about the game in the future.

Less clicks means less future press. Creating more of an issue for PR to turn things around. Now while it is happening AND you are trying to raise funds? If people are generally talking about and thinking about things negatively, you’re just as likely to not get positive returns - as in less funds, less people backing the development.

Unless you have set up a model to snag whales into backing development…I won’t point fingers where that is happening right now .

This is also a lesson we learned in the past. Where we showed how stuff was being made, people didn’t understand what they were seeing, snd PR had to try an explain what it was and want, and nothing positive really came of it. So we stopped doing that.


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Redlynne
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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
warlocc wrote:

One thing he's absolutely right about is that every time we show off unfinished work, people have no idea what it is they're looking at.

If you want people to NOTICE something ... it helps to explain what you're wanting them to pay attention to.
Better yet, go out of your way to point the thing out. Point out what you're wanting people to notice in a way that eliminates the opportunities to misunderstand the context of what you're asking for in the way of feedback.

See, that's the problem. At least 50% of the people on the Internet do not read more than the headline. Full stop. In the case of a video, they don't read at all.

This phenomenon is not limited to online gaming development.

Of course, even when the instructions ARE CLEARLY LABELED ... players/people are perfectly capable of Doing The Wrong Thing With Confidence™ ...

And yes, if you like those shorts by Jill Bearup ... there's more where they came from.


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Huckleberry
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

With all do respect Huckleberry, I disagree. In the MMO circle, showing off poor (I profess work) creates more of an uphill battle than it does good.

Not only do general people post negatively about what you’ve shown, it gets other people THINKING negatively about your game. It’s happened many times where people won’t even click on articles or watch reviews about the game in the future.

Less clicks means less future press. Creating more of an issue for PR to turn things around. Now while it is happening AND you are trying to raise funds? If people are generally talking about and thinking about things negatively, you’re just as likely to not get positive returns - as in less funds, less people backing the development.

Unless you have set up a model to snag whales into backing development…I won’t point fingers where that is happening right now .

This is also a lesson we learned in the past. Where we showed how stuff was being made, people didn’t understand what they were seeing, snd PR had to try an explain what it was and want, and nothing positive really came of it. So we stopped doing that.

I can certainly understand that. I think Valiant suffered those problems indeed, as an example. But then, they opened up their game for everyone to try while it was still in pre-alpha (if there is such a thing as pre to alpha).

I still think showing the work is better than not. And while it may require a significant PR effort to focus the deliverables on the intended message, shirking something because of the effort is a poor excuse, especially when the PR people are not the game devs. That's PR's job. But I respect your learned opinion. If you claim you do not have the PR talent and resources to devote to controlling the message, then I'll have to cede this issue.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I still think showing the work is better than not. And while it may require a significant PR effort to focus the deliverables on the intended message, shirking something because of the effort is a poor excuse, especially when the PR people are not the game devs. That's PR's job. But I respect your learned opinion. If you claim you do not have the PR talent and resources to devote to controlling the message, then I'll have to cede this issue.

Comes back to the volunteer effort. Currently we have only two really active PR people- myself and one other pulling double duty from moguls. We had another, but he actually had to quit due to the stress, for a job he wasn't getting paid to do. That in itself should tell you a lot.

Those of us left aren't very good at videos or graphics, like I said. It winds up looking worse than raw footage. ArtStrong makes decent videos and we could pull him, but then he's not working on character costumes anymore. ShadowElusive makes nice graphics and gave us the templates we use for update banners, but he's hard at work on the UI- something that we're going to need very very soon (hint hint), so we don't want to interrupt him, either.

Gotta choose our battles, as they say.

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