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Regen

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zyric
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Regen

Ok I think I understand how the Base, Theme, Animation works on offensive powers and some defense powers like a defense base with rock or fire theme or a resistance base with rock or fire themes. What I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around is how a regen powerset would work in this environment. If regen is the base what would possible themes be? I have played a fire based regen, according to character background, in both COH and CO but to me that has always been more of an animation difference than a theme difference. Or am I looking at this wrong, is regen more of a theme than a base?

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I don't think the game will

I don't think the game will provide the necessary "connect the dots" lines to get you from the mechanics to the graphics with the mansplaining filled in. I think we as players will have to concoct those explanations ourselves (or simply choose not to as the case may be).

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Yeah I think the hope is that

Yeah I think the hope is that if MWM designs this game as they claim you'll be able to create a character with a set of powers that can be "explained" or roleplayed any way you want regardless of animations attached to those powers.

Basically I don't think I'd get too caught up in how animations are supposed to be related to powers and/or themes. The whole point to having as many customization options as possible is to let YOU define how your character operates and/or how he/she looks while doing it.

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Ok, let's say you want a fire

Ok, let's say you want a fire based healer. When you make your costume, you pick "Fire" as one of your themes (you get 2). When you pick powers, you then pick "Rapid Healing" as your power set, and then pick your starting power from one of the two options if its your primary, or just get the top option if your secondary. Then you pick the animation for that, if one is needed, from the pool available.

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So it sounds like you're

So it sounds like you're going with a similar power selection structure as City of Heroes?

The one thing about having no choice in your first power from your secondary is that I felt some sets gave you a bit of clunker. Or at least, a power that was too niche to be a forced pick at level 1. I'm sure this is something you've considered, but I'm hoping that any time you have a limited choice like this, it's a power you'd be almost certain to want anyway.

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I'm probably asking something

I'm probably asking something that's been covered already, but is there a current plan for how many different animations will be available to choose from for each power? I would not personally rule out having just 1 for each at the minimum, then add in more as purchasable things later.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I'm probably asking something that's been covered already, but is there a current plan for how many different animations will be available to choose from for each power? I would not personally rule out having just 1 for each at the minimum, then add in more as purchasable things later.

The answer is "as many as we can"

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I'm probably asking something that's been covered already, but is there a current plan for how many different animations will be available to choose from for each power? I would not personally rule out having just 1 for each at the minimum, then add in more as purchasable things later.

To add to what Doctor Tyche said I'd have to think we'll get at least a few free animation choices for most/all powers at launch. A major selling point for this game is the concept of "customization" and it'd be hard to customize things like that with only one available choice per power.

The Devs probably have long term plans to eventually provide dozens of choices, maybe even new options that would have to be unlocked via the game store. But at the very beginning there needs to be SOME kind of default choice even if it's only from among a few generic built-in starting options.

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I assume "animations" is a

I assume "animations" is a broad category that includes the particle effects of the "blast" itself and the gyrations that the toon's body undertakes when "blasting" etc, not to mention setting the point of origin of the "blast" to the correct orifice, nozzle, muzzle, palm, fist, finger, eye, sternum, etc? If so that includes a lot of things that ar minor variations on a theme, like "blast originates from open palm" versus "blast originates from closed fist" etc.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I assume "animations" is a broad category that includes the particle effects of the "blast" itself and the gyrations that the toon's body undertakes when "blasting" etc, not to mention setting the point of origin of the "blast" to the correct orifice, nozzle, muzzle, palm, fist, finger, eye, sternum, etc? If so that includes a lot of things that ar minor variations on a theme, like "blast originates from open palm" versus "blast originates from closed fist" etc.

Sure I got all that. That's all the more reason why I'm effectively assuming at this point we'll be getting at least several basic choices of all these kinds of details for each power by launch time. In the long run hopefully we'll have many more dozens of these "minor variations" to choose from once the Devs have had presumably years of time to update the game after launch.

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You're thinking too much like

You're thinking too much like the old game there Lothic, thinking that animations are on a per-power selection. Unreal allows for an ability to adjust the animation run-time, which means we can make a pool of animations, and let any power pick from them.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

You're thinking too much like the old game there Lothic, thinking that animations are on a per-power selection. Unreal allows for an ability to adjust the animation run-time, which means we can make a pool of animations, and let any power pick from them.

No, I actually wasn't assuming that at all. Please re-read what I said.

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Ok

Ok

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Ok

For what it's worth I fully understood that Unreal will allow for what you're calling a "pool of animations" to apply to any power. Obviously that pool will start out relatively small by launch and will hopefully grow over time. Radiac's limited assertion that we'd only get "one animation per power" by launch is the main thing I was responding to.

Obviously as a non-Dev I don't know everything you're planning to do. But since people (exactly like you) have generally been talking about the kinds of customizations we can expect you can trust that I've been relatively capable of remembering what you said for the last several years now. ;)

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Pyromantic wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:

So it sounds like you're going with a similar power selection structure as City of Heroes?
The one thing about having no choice in your first power from your secondary is that I felt some sets gave you a bit of clunker. Or at least, a power that was too niche to be a forced pick at level 1. I'm sure this is something you've considered, but I'm hoping that any time you have a limited choice like this, it's a power you'd be almost certain to want anyway.

Yes, the power structure is similar - more details to come on that front.

And we have tried our best to make those early pick powers useful in their own right.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Pyromantic wrote:
So it sounds like you're going with a similar power selection structure as City of Heroes?
The one thing about having no choice in your first power from your secondary is that I felt some sets gave you a bit of clunker. Or at least, a power that was too niche to be a forced pick at level 1. I'm sure this is something you've considered, but I'm hoping that any time you have a limited choice like this, it's a power you'd be almost certain to want anyway.
Yes, the power structure is similar - more details to come on that front.
And we have tried our best to make those early pick powers useful in their own right.

I'd agree that some of the level 1 secondary powers we were forced to take in CoH were "lackluster" and/or "annoying". But I'll bet if you talked to the original CoH Devs involved they'd tell you that they were motivated by the goal of preventing players from gimping their own characters by forgetting to choose core, fundamental powers they knew everyone using those powersets needed to have. Remember back during CoH's beta testing they originally wanted a "full freeform" power system where everyone had much more freedom to pick any powers they wanted. The fatal flaw with that concept (which led to the more regulated archetype/powerset system we ended up with) was that players too easily either made overpowered tank-mages or completely unplayable gimps because they either took too many "good" powers or too many "bad" powers without any balance.

Like it or not a class-based power system like what's being talked about here for CoT (which may force us to take certain powers we don't total love/want) will actually help ensure that our characters are more balanced and not too overly strong or weak.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

(which may force us to take certain powers we don't total love/want)

Hopefully the Tertiary power selections, if they are diverse, will help offset this a bit. At least to help maintain a certain character theme.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:
So it sounds like you're going with a similar power selection structure as City of Heroes?
The one thing about having no choice in your first power from your secondary is that I felt some sets gave you a bit of clunker. Or at least, a power that was too niche to be a forced pick at level 1. I'm sure this is something you've considered, but I'm hoping that any time you have a limited choice like this, it's a power you'd be almost certain to want anyway.
Yes, the power structure is similar - more details to come on that front.
And we have tried our best to make those early pick powers useful in their own right.
I'd agree that some of the level 1 secondary powers we were forced to take in CoH were "lackluster" and/or "annoying". But I'll bet if you talked to the original CoH Devs involved they'd tell you that they were motivated by the goal of preventing players from gimping their own characters by forgetting to choose core, fundamental powers they knew everyone using those powersets needed to have. Remember back during CoH's beta testing they originally wanted a "full freeform" power system where everyone had much more freedom to pick any powers they wanted. The fatal flaw with that concept (which led to the more regulated archetype/powerset system we ended up with) was that players too easily either made overpowered tank-mages or completely unplayable gimps because they either took too many "good" powers or too many "bad" powers without any balance.
Like it or not a class-based power system like what's being talked about here for CoT (which may force us to take certain powers we don't total love/want) will actually help ensure that our characters are more balanced and not too overly strong or weak.

I certainly wouldn't advocate a freeform power selection, but having the option between two powers at the opening tiers of a secondary powerset is nowhere close to the same thing. IIRC, the CoH devs actually said later in the cycle that they would have preferred to make it possible for players to choose from the first two powers in their secondaries, but it was too baked into the code to change at that point.

I just think that every power you get should be something you're happy to get, and not something you're stuck with if you want to play that set. Now that may well be the case; there were many secondaries in CoH for which I absolutely would have taken the first power anyway. But there were also some for which I wouldn't, given the choice.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Ok, let's say you want a fire based healer. When you make your costume, you pick "Fire" as one of your themes (you get 2). When you pick powers, you then pick "Rapid Healing" as your power set, and then pick your starting power from one of the two options if its your primary, or just get the top option if your secondary. Then you pick the animation for that, if one is needed, from the pool available.

Could you please come to the glossary thread and explain this thing? I seem to keep seeing different definitions for the term Theme. Here it's used on the aesthetic layer of power set creation. But in the past it's been used to define the secondary effects of the base/powerset. Really can't wait for the "details to come" update.

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On the topic of the OP. The

On the topic of the OP. The aesthetic layer of regen could be a green glow of various types. Or it could be nothing at all. It could look like the willpower set in COH or it could be some sort of techno holofield. Or a little robot that orbits your body making repairs. Or it could be a glyph or glyphs that glow at your feet. Or it could be a bright white aura like Invulnerability in COH. Or it could be green fire. Or crumbling stone. Or a divine light from above. Or a mice. Or spiders. Or ash flying away from or towards the character. *inhales deeply* AD potentially allows for all of these. You as a player have to fill in the "Why?"

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Ok, let's say you want a fire based healer. When you make your costume, you pick "Fire" as one of your themes (you get 2). When you pick powers, you then pick "Rapid Healing" as your power set, and then pick your starting power from one of the two options if its your primary, or just get the top option if your secondary. Then you pick the animation for that, if one is needed, from the pool available.
Could you please come to the glossary thread and explain this thing? I seem to keep seeing different definitions for the term Theme. Here it's used on the aesthetic layer of power set creation. But in the past it's been used to define the secondary effects of the base/powerset. Really can't wait for the "details to come" update.

There is an aesthetic theme and mechanics theme.


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Pyromantic wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:

I certainly wouldn't advocate a freeform power selection, but having the option between two powers at the opening tiers of a secondary powerset is nowhere close to the same thing. IIRC, the CoH devs actually said later in the cycle that they would have preferred to make it possible for players to choose from the first two powers in their secondaries, but it was too baked into the code to change at that point.
I just think that every power you get should be something you're happy to get, and not something you're stuck with if you want to play that set. Now that may well be the case; there were many secondaries in CoH for which I absolutely would have taken the first power anyway. But there were also some for which I wouldn't, given the choice.

Clearly there can be compromises made between a strict "you must take this specific starting power" system and a "full freeform" system. If the Devs can balance a class system so that players can have a "one or the other choice" about their first secondary power and still make the game work without problems then obviously I'd be in favor of that.

But remember even if we get the choice between "one starting power or another" there will still likely be players who hate BOTH choices. You're never going to make everyone 100% happy and balanced game mechanics should not be randomly tossed aside trying to achieve that impossible goal.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Grimfox wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Ok, let's say you want a fire based healer. When you make your costume, you pick "Fire" as one of your themes (you get 2). When you pick powers, you then pick "Rapid Healing" as your power set, and then pick your starting power from one of the two options if its your primary, or just get the top option if your secondary. Then you pick the animation for that, if one is needed, from the pool available.
Could you please come to the glossary thread and explain this thing? I seem to keep seeing different definitions for the term Theme. Here it's used on the aesthetic layer of power set creation. But in the past it's been used to define the secondary effects of the base/powerset. Really can't wait for the "details to come" update.
There is an aesthetic theme and mechanics theme.

So if you get two mechanic themes does each one apply to a specific power set or can i use them across both my primary and secondary power. For example if I choose fire & ice themes can my first primary power be fire but my second primary power be ice, or do I choose fire for my primary set and ice for my secondary?

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zyric wrote:
zyric wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Grimfox wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Ok, let's say you want a fire based healer. When you make your costume, you pick "Fire" as one of your themes (you get 2). When you pick powers, you then pick "Rapid Healing" as your power set, and then pick your starting power from one of the two options if its your primary, or just get the top option if your secondary. Then you pick the animation for that, if one is needed, from the pool available.
Could you please come to the glossary thread and explain this thing? I seem to keep seeing different definitions for the term Theme. Here it's used on the aesthetic layer of power set creation. But in the past it's been used to define the secondary effects of the base/powerset. Really can't wait for the "details to come" update.
There is an aesthetic theme and mechanics theme.
So if you get two mechanic themes does each one apply to a specific power set or can i use them across both my primary and secondary power. For example if I choose fire & ice themes can my first primary power be fire but my second primary power be ice, or do I choose fire for my primary set and ice for my secondary?

Fire and Ice are aesthetic, not mechanic.

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Players don't pick mechanic

Players don't pick mechanic themes, we as devs use them to design a set. Example Burning Blast would have a mechanic theme of damage over time. If you have two different sets, each will be designed around a distinct mechanic theme.


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ah. now it's making sense.

ah. now it's making sense.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

When you make your costume, you pick "Fire" as one of your themes (you get 2).

This is not going to lock a character in to any certain sets of things, is it? I was wondering about that when you pick a theme during costume generation.

(insert pithy comment here)

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zyric wrote:
zyric wrote:

ah. now it's making sense.

It's a bit meta, and I bet a lot more folks (myself included) will have an easier time getting their heads around it once there are more than a couple examples.

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Dark Ether wrote:
Dark Ether wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
When you make your costume, you pick "Fire" as one of your themes (you get 2).
This is not going to lock a character in to any certain sets of things, is it? I was wondering about that when you pick a theme during costume generation.

My guess/hope/wish would be for every toon to get some set of generic or otherwise broadly applicable thematic stuff, then if you want specifically "flamey" looking blast effects, you'd pick "Fire" as a them to unlock that, etc.

This probably also leaves open the possibility of letting people pay money to unlock more than 2 themes for a given toon, I would hope.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:
Dark Ether wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
When you make your costume, you pick "Fire" as one of your themes (you get 2).
This is not going to lock a character in to any certain sets of things, is it? I was wondering about that when you pick a theme during costume generation.

My guess/hope/wish would be for every toon to get some set of generic or otherwise broadly applicable thematic stuff, then if you want specifically "flamey" looking blast effects, you'd pick "Fire" as a them to unlock that, etc.
This probably also leaves open the possibility of letting people pay money to unlock more than 2 themes for a given toon, I would hope.

*Bingo* You got it in one, er, both!

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

My guess/hope/wish would be for every toon to get some set of generic or otherwise broadly applicable thematic stuff, then if you want specifically "flamey" looking blast effects, you'd pick "Fire" as a them to unlock that, etc.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Radiac wrote:
I assume "animations" is a broad category that includes the particle effects of the "blast" itself and the gyrations that the toon's body undertakes when "blasting" etc, not to mention setting the point of origin of the "blast" to the correct orifice, nozzle, muzzle, palm, fist, finger, eye, sternum, etc? If so that includes a lot of things that ar minor variations on a theme, like "blast originates from open palm" versus "blast originates from closed fist" etc.
Sure I got all that. That's all the more reason why I'm effectively assuming at this point we'll be getting at least several basic choices of all these kinds of details for each power by launch time. In the long run hopefully we'll have many more dozens of these "minor variations" to choose from once the Devs have had presumably years of time to update the game after launch.

Personally I'm hoping that we get at least one for each of, what I like to call, the 4 major "spheres" of power (Tech, Magic/Mystic, Psionic and Natural/Martial Arts), at least as far as is applicable. Though I realize this might more relevant towards the weapon and point of origin than it is towards the effects animation but it is still part of the overall aesthetic theme.

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Pyromantic wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:

The one thing about having no choice in your first power from your secondary is that I felt some sets gave you a bit of clunker. Or at least, a power that was too niche to be a forced pick at level 1. I'm sure this is something you've considered, but I'm hoping that any time you have a limited choice like this, it's a power you'd be almost certain to want anyway.

DEV has also hinted at a >>NIMBUS<< effect that will give players the capability to alter/mutate power dynamics via slottable enhancements. So you could turn a single target into a cone for example. The Nimbus effect has been talked about in general terms so far and no concrete details have been released.
So that should give the player the capability to shape the powers to their liking.

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That is not a nimbus effect.

That is not a nimbus effect. The Augments IIRC are what can change a ST power to a Cone power. As an example. Augments will likely have many other purposes and capabilities.

Thanks for clarifying the Theme confusion Tannim.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

That is not a nimbus effect. The Augments IIRC are what can change a ST power to a Cone power. As an example. Augments will likely have many other purposes and capabilities.

I though that it was refinements that could change the functionality (f.i ST to cone/AoE) of a power while augments just enhanced the effects (acc dam def and so on).

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

That is not a nimbus effect. The Augments IIRC are what can change a ST power to a Cone power. As an example. Augments will likely have many other purposes and capabilities.
Thanks for clarifying the Theme confusion Tannim.

We don't know anything about Nimbus other than you can mold a power to do something other than the default. Unless DEV has expounded upon the topic in KS only forums.

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Unless DEV has expounded upon the topic in KS only forums.

Such an explanation has not yet been forthcoming.


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I think the term "nimbus"

I think the term "nimbus" only referred to a possible change in the power icon border which would reflect the type of augment/refinement that was slotted.

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Augments improve or change

Augments improve or change the power's effects toward the destination (self, enemy, location). Stuffnlike the damage of the power for a health attack. Refinements affect how the power affects the originator of the power, stuff like how accurate the caster is, how fast the power recharges, and so on.

The Nimbus is a UI tool to help the player easily identify what type of operation mechanics their power has.


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Rigel
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Augments improve or change the power's effects toward the destination (self, enemy, location). Stuffnlike the damage of the power for a health attack. Refinements affect how the power affects the originator of the power, stuff like how accurate the caster is, how fast the power recharges, and so on.
The Nimbus is a UI tool to help the player easily identify what type of operation mechanics their power has.

Thanks for the clarification!

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Augments improve or change the power's effects toward the destination (self, enemy, location). Stuffnlike the damage of the power for a health attack. Refinements affect how the power affects the originator of the power, stuff like how accurate the caster is, how fast the power recharges, and so on.

Interesting - do Augments and Refinements both use the same "slots" (and they are just terms used to describe their effects)? Or are there separate slots for each (and if there are do you choose which goes where as you level)?

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I believe the way it is

I believe the way it is supposed to work, or the most recent info we got anyway, was that the power has like 4 slots in it that could each accept an Augment. The Augments will have anywhere from 0 to 3 slots in THEM which can accept a Refinement. Then there are some other special types of slots that exist, like a Set slot which accepts special items that might affect the set in various ways I forget.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I believe the way it is supposed to work, or the most recent info we got anyway, was that the power has like 4 slots in it that could each accept an Augment. The Augments will have anywhere from 0 to 3 slots in THEM which can accept a Refinement. Then there are some other special types of slots that exist, like a Set slot which accepts special items that might affect the set in various ways I forget.

Basically this. Powers start with an Augment Socket. As you level you can assign more until you power has 4 total sockets. Augments have 0-3 Refinement Sockets.

Power Sets each have a Power Set Augment Socket into which a specific type of Set Augment can be placed which affects most of the powers in a set. Tertiary Sets accept Global Augments - a special augment which may affect most of the character's powers. None of these special augments have ref sockets at this time.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Basically this. Powers start with an Augment Socket. As you level you can assign more until you power has 4 total sockets. Augments have 0-3 Refinement Sockets.

Power Sets each have a Power Set Augment Socket into which a specific type of Set Augment can be placed which affects most of the powers in a set. Tertiary Sets accept Global Augments - a special augment which may affect most of the character's powers. None of these special augments have ref sockets at this time.

I really like the sound of this system. I CAN'T WAIT to begin building deep, complex, ball-stomping builds using this well-thought-out sounding system--especially after it has a few years to grow and mature.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

ball-stomping builds

Builds should be equal opportunity...

I keed, but seriously, I like how this system sounds.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Basically this. Powers start with an Augment Socket. As you level you can assign more until you power has 4 total sockets. Augments have 0-3 Refinement Sockets.
Power Sets each have a Power Set Augment Socket into which a specific type of Set Augment can be placed which affects most of the powers in a set. Tertiary Sets accept Global Augments - a special augment which may affect most of the character's powers. None of these special augments have ref sockets at this time.

Very Interesting. This should allow for a great deal of customization. Are the number of refinement sockets determined by rarity? Crafting (either via RNG or Skill)? Can we slot or unslot Augments and Refinements at will or are there restrictions? These questions assume you have this nailed down at the moment or are ready to release said info. If not I look forward to the future preview detailing the system!

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I forget which Kickstrarter

I forget which Kickstrarter update explained this, but it's in there. That was like a year or two ago though, so changes could have been made, and might still be.

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