In City of Heroes, you never needed to "reload" any of your Powers with a fresh clip of ammo ... you just needed to have enough Endurance in your blue bar to pay for the use of each Power.
Should City of Titans feature anything akin to ammo in clips?
On one level, it's an added layer of complexity. In terms of functionality, it's essentially an Endurance Battery that does not Recover Endurance on its own, thus requiring it to be topped up every so often (no doubt requiring an animation to do so). What you'd have is a "battery" that a specified grouping of Powers can be defined as drawing Endurance from, exclusively, which can be refilled from the standard Endurance blue bar on command. Over an infinite time span, this kind of distinction ought to make little to no difference, because the ultimate source of "fuel" for all Powers is still the Recovery rate of the Endurance blue bar common to every character. However, in the shorter term, this type of distinction can have very different and distinct gameplay performance effects, and not just because of the need to reload. That's because the use of the Endurance Battery system would allow the "time shifting" of demand on Endurance costs away from being instant to being, in effect, pre-paid. As a result, the "burst" potential begins to decouple itself from the "pressure" potential when talking about shorter time frames vs longer time frames.
Given the ways that Powers worked in City of Heroes, an "ammo clip" system would have made sense for only a few Powersets ... [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Assault_Rifle]Assault Rifle[/url], [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archery]Archery[/url] and [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Trick_Arrow]Trick Arrow[/url] (of all things) being merely the most obvious possibilities, thanks to "ammo clips" and "quivers of arrows" being the ammunition of choice (conceptually) for these Powersets.
One potential rationale that I can think of for justifying the Endurance Battery system and its pre-paid time shifting of demand for Endurance away from "on use" for Powers would be as an ace in the hole against Endurance Drains (think [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Malta_Operatives#Sapper]Sappers[/url]). That's because the Endurance Drain would "wreck" your blue bar Recovery, but wouldn't be able to touch anything in an Endurance Battery that's already been "paid for" in advance. When it comes time to "reload" you'll still be in trouble, just like everyone else, but you'd still be able to keep attacking until you've completely drained your Endurance Battery (or Batteries, if you've got multiples) and need to reload it (or them).
Now, obviously, this kind of ammo/clip system ought to not allow constant demand Powers, such as Toggles, to draw from a defined Endurance Battery ... but Clicks, Channeled and Charge Powers should be fair game for making use of such a system. As a matter of practicality, it would indeed be possible (although obviously not desirable) to run each and every single Power on a different Endurance Battery ... creating a logistical nightmare for keeping everything (re)fueled over the longer haul simply due to needing to manually manage the "reloads" for all of those Batteries. However, if the system is designed as being Optional, then anyone who blunders into one of those dead end edge cases would simply be a victim of [b]Self Gimping[/b] in the [i]"ah, let idiots find out for themselves!"[/i] tradition, as opposed to being something that ought to be prevented outright by the "rules" of the system at the design level. I figure that the [b]Go Darwin Go[/b] factor will be sufficient to self-regulate the application of the option *away from* the potential for Self Gimping, simply because a Conventional Wisdom regarding the option will develop around it.
So long as you can go to an NPC and "adjust" your Endurance Battery setup(s) ... allowing you to define the max capacity of each Battery and which Powers draw from it to pay Endurance costs ... for a fee (IGC?), of course ... there will be enough flexibility offered by the system to let people play around with it and figure out what works best for them. Note that this would apply equally both to ammo magazines as it would to spell charges or just about any other sort of "prepared in advance" capacity to make use of Powers. Indeed, I can already anticipate the design of a Gadgeteer type PC who uses Endurance Batteries for everything except their Toggle Powers, simply as a way to better realize the conceptual framework of their character in game mechanical terms. In such a case, a lot of the "utility belt" type Powers could be defined as drawing from a single Endurance Battery. An entire Powerset like Trick Arrow could potentially draw from Endurance Battery B (Trick Arrow Quiver) while another Powerset like Archery could draw from Endurance Battery A (Archery Quiver) ... or perhaps both draw from the same source (ie. a single Quiver) ... or whatever arrangement the Player desires.
An Endurance Battery would have a capacity defined in Endurance (straight integer scaling for simplicity) and an animation for the action to refill it. I'm thinking that an "inherent Power" for the Endurance Battery would be the way to go here (ie. a "free" Power that can't be Enhanced but which is permanent). In order to refill the Endurance Battery, the requirement is that your Current Endurance must exceed the capacity defined for the Battery (ie. no partial refills). This would make it possible to "waste" Endurance through the Battery system when refueling a Battery that has not been completely emptied, so there will be a sort of "packing efficiency" factor going on that will encourage Players to find "sweet spots" in terms of load balancing demands for Endurance for what is most effective for them and their specific playstyle(s). The result of that would be a sort of Build Design Challenge which I would assume a lot of Players would find interesting.
Conceptually speaking, the amount of ammo/clips/charges/whatever that can be supplied by any given Endurance Battery is theoretically infinite ... given sufficient time and Endurance Recovery for the main blue bar. The way the system would work is that on command, the Player "pinches off" a portion of their blue bar to allocate to an Endurance Battery, at which point their blue bar begins/resumes Recovering the amount of Endurance shunted into the Battery. The tradeoff of potential Battery use inefficiency (capacity, animation time, etc.) would need to be weighed against the potential benefit of anything already stored in the Battery being "protected" from Endurance Drains (although refilling while being Drained can still be a problem) as well as the possibility of having a character designed for "burst" performance rather than steady "pressure" for a given duration, given the nature and degree of the time shifting of demands for Endurance involved in the build design.
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Uhhh... no?
It would seem to make sappers pretty trivial.
Why not? I've got a device that does that right now. It's called a flashlight.
Sounds like a challenge, and a balancing factor. Batteries will let you surge powers like you normally wouldn't.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Going back to old CoX there were things in that game that felt like ammo. You had some temp powers that had X number of uses before they were spent. There were also different types of "Ammo" for the one Pistols power.
I personally don't like making CoT any closer or more mechanically similar to a straight -up FPS game though and I think having a "shoot off screen to reload" or "reload button" type mechanic might do that.
If this game had Insps, you could have made an Insp that makes your "gun" power do different things, I suppose, but that's not happening as far as I know.
Lastly, with the way the game is decoupling that powers from the animations, exactly which people would use the ammo system nd which wouldn't would probably be a matter of min/maxing. If it's seen as a net-positive thing for a character to be able to ignore Sappers and use ammo for one power, people would be tempted to do it for that reason alone, unless there were some opportunity cost of that in itself to balance it out.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
On the contrary, since Batteries have no built in Recovery, getting your blue bar Drained will still hurt you. The difference is that you might be able to hold out a bit longer before hitting your Endurance Crash of not being able to "fuel" your Powers. Again, this would highlight the time shifting nature of running Powers off these kinds of Batteries.
So a Sapper with a heavy Drain attack wouldn't be able to shut you down (hard) quite as quickly, but they'd still shut you down over the long(er) haul. So Endurance Recovery Debuffs would still "bite you" either way. The difference is that with a Battery, your Endurance costs are "pre-paid" into the Battery where they are "safe" from getting Drained ... but that doesn't help you when the Battery has been emptied and you need to refill it. So you'll be able to keep going on the "current clip of ammo" but the Drain attack will still make it hard for you to pull out a fresh (new) "clip of ammo" to replace the spent one with. That means that the "pain" of the Drain gets delayed, but not eliminated. For some situations, that delay may very well be sufficient, while in others ... it won't be. Given all the other factors involved (storage efficiency, animation time to "reload" and so on), I'd consider that something of a break-even sort of difference, such that it can be either an advantage or a disadvantage at different times and in different situations.
Because when Toggles run out of Endurance to draw on, they automatically [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qEbGKJTHps]toggle themselves off[/url].
Now, a flashlight, for example, might only need to draw 0.001 Endurance per 3.6 seconds, thus requiring 1 Endurance per hour (ie. trivial negligible in game terms), but that's not what most Toggle Powers within the game would be drawing. [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Pool.Leaping.Combat_Jumping]Combat Jumping[/url] had a draw of 0.065 Endurance per second, or slightly more than 15 seconds per 1 Endurance. Even with a 10 Endurance Battery, that would still mean needing to [i]remember to refill[/i] the Battery (manually!) every ~2.5 minutes if you don't want the Toggle Power to "die" on you.
And that's just one of the lowest cost Toggle Powers in City of Heroes. Most of them had Endurance costs far higher than that, and that's before figuring that you could (under the system I'm proposing here) have multiple Toggles drawing from a single Battery pool, driving the costs up even further (Dark Armor, I'm looking at you).
So [i]theoretically[/i] speaking, no there's no reason for me to throw up this prevention measure at all.
[i]Practically speaking[/i], however, such an option would become VERY ANNOYING in actual gameplay practice, simply in terms of increased overhead. Gets even worse when you factor in the potential efficiency losses that would occur from "refilling" too soon as well as the initiative/time loss involved in missing the window to "refill" the Battery just before Endurance drains away completely, forcing a Toggle Off condition that will then take even more animation time to Toggle On after successfully "refilling" the Battery again ... and so on and so forth.
In other words, I'm placing my marker on the side that says being able to assign Toggle Powers to draw from Endurance Battery pools would simply be more trouble than it's worth [b]to the Player[/b] and should therefore be disallowed for gamePLAY reasons.
Exactly. So for a heavy alpha striking build, such as a Stalker (for example), you could do some extra prep work and be able to surge your capabilities up front in a particular way ... but the tradeoff is a bigger alpha strike at a cost of additional "work" during downtime(s). If you're dealing with a constant, ongoing combat situation where there's no downtime available to you, your performance with a Battery will be no better (and possibly even slightly worse, due to various factors) than a near identical build which doesn't use a Battery.
The extreme example of this sort of thing would be a 1-2-Done build, where you've got a build that relies on a huge Battery (say, 100 Endurance) which is simply too big to be able to Recover quickly enough. So you burn your Battery fast with the alpha strike chain, refill the Battery, do another round of quick burn ... and then can't refill the Battery again, simply because of how long it takes to Recover 100 Endurance so as to refill the Battery for a 3rd series. This would very much be a [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Inherent.Inherent.Rest][b]Take A Knee[/b][/url] style of build after every encounter (ie. Not Recommended) that is designed for short, quick engagements and which has trouble dealing with sustained combat encounters ... in other words, a Hit And Fade Artist. The build is still "paying for" everything through Endurance Recovery, so there's No Free Lunch, it's just that WHEN those Endurance costs need to be paid for get shifted around in time. Whether that's an advantage or a disadvantage depends on the capacity of the Battery, the situation(s) the Player finds themself in (typically) and what kinds of Out Of Combat "luxuries" they can expect to be afforded.
As I seem to recall, any kind of "steamroller" Team tended to minimize downtimes between spawn groups ... which wouldn't exactly be an advantage for use of Battery logistics. So any kind of "steamroller" constant combat expectation would tend to minimize the apparent advantage of using a Battery in this way. This would then put the expectations of burst vs sustained output in opposition to each other ... as intended.
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Sorry, but what you are describing is an ammo magazine not a clip. Media not understanding the difference muddles the water. The right use of terminology in Magazine vs. clip is a pet peeve. Magazine can be reloaded, a clip is one and done use.
Please continue the debate.
We found a much simpler solution for certain desirable toggles not dropping. Keep in mind that toggles dropping are themselves a type of psychological incentive to not be defeated and hence not every toggle in the game being safe from dropping on defeat. I can't give the details of how we are handling the safe-from-dropping-toggle but it does account for energy cost of a power.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I'm no expert but I've always heard the terms "magazine" and "clip" used interchangeably. People use the terms "speed" and "velocity" interchangeably in popular culture too, and the technical definitions of those are not the same (in Physics texts, speed is a directionless quantity and velocity is treated as a vector, which does contain direction information).
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Been awhile, I'd say the only real difference between magazine and clip is the size. Though ammunition and bullets tend to go interchangeably but join the army and it's strictly ammunition. :p
Then in that context I'm talking about Magazines when discussing this whole notion of an Endurance Battery.
You'd have to go to an [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations#Endurance_Inspirations]Endurance Inspiration[/url] in order to model a Clip using the terminology you're describing ... a "disposable" one and done source.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
you make the assumption that I thought you were sane in the first place. :p
in regards to clips/magazines? I'll take a pass. while it's a cool lil mechanic, it is one I would rather not see implemented as it is unneeded. superheroes, in general, don't have to worry about carrying enough bullets, even the gun totting ones. otherwise, you make as well get into the other bits...like where are you carrying all this ammunition? how much does it weigh? what if you carry multiple types of weapons that require different types of ammo, will ammo be broken down to type?
while I like the idea...that is a bit of "realism" I think we should take a pass on.
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Can I shoot at the ammo and then blow up the hero wearing all that ammo! :)
Agreed on the idea of not needing to reload. I did that in CoH by doing a simple...
/em reloads her pistols
:p Simple and done. In fact, people loved seeing me do it, it's just not something you do over and over or it gets stale.
...this I kind like (referencing the /em reload....not the blowing up of superheroes! :p)
if people want to have reloading...just plug in an /em with it.
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In Dungeons and Dragons Online there's a magic point bar that magic characters use
A Ki Bar hat Monks use (kept separate in case you're a Monk/Sorcerer)
and various weapons use ammo.
It's not that complicated at all since the computer keeps track of all the counting down.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
what's the real benefit? how many players would actually be using this? would this enhance or detract from game play? how detailed should it be (different management for each type of weapon...or a single ammunition type)? if it optional, what is the trade off? where does the player go to get more ammunition? do they have to 'buy" their ammunition? plus a thousand more questions...
it's an additional resource that needs to be maintained and honestly, I don't think it's needed. the exception here being unless they are going for "realism"...and if that's the case then there are loads more to consider. given this is MWM's freshman year...I think it may be better to keep it simple.
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When you separate the fact that a power an use an animated model that may simulate something that can be reloaded to something that isn't reliant on anything other than the character's innate ability, the requirement of a battery, magazine, or limited number of charges is rather pointless.
A mechanical function that provides a case for a toggle not being dropped when the character is defeated or depleted of energy isn't dependant upon a particular animation and can be set up as one of the functions of a power's design.
A mechanical function of an additional metered source of energy to perform functions (outside of the character's main energy source) can also be set up as an function of a power's design. Though something like this becomes more complicated when you consider if it is a power that requires consistant (re)activation, like an attack power for example, then you are also requiring some additional UI elements. One for activating the "battery" of the power(s) in question and another for using the powers themselves. This makes the "battery" function more of a function of a power affecting either an entire power set (or the entire character) rather than a function within the proper of something like an attack power.
There is also another possibility - and this is purely a hypothetical here (but possible to set up with our power builder)- a power that costs no energy but requires Momentum to be activated or uses up an amount of Momentum to perform its function instead of energy. There would be other factors involved in the design of such a power, but at least it can be used to perform a similar function to that of the OP.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Size has nothing to do with it. 40 round magazine or 40 round clip. 10 round magazine reloadable (M-4 rifle), 10 round clip use and discard (M-1 rifle). Just because people use it wrong does not mean it should be used wrong. If someone uses speed/velocity interchangeably then they should be corrected. Reinforcing/allowing the interchangeability due to "pop culture" does nothing, but allows it to still be wrong. Pop culture also uses a ton of improper grammar and yet it is still considered improper grammar. Allowing the words to be interchangeable leads to confusion. In a game no big deal, in the real world big deal.
Not trying to derail the thread, its just shows how much of a pet peeve that interchangeability use, peeves me. Now back to the regularly scheduled debate.
Ammo, to me, was very much a cinematic mechanic. I think the idea of having to buy arrows or bullets is something abandoned by MMOs, because it becomes an extra thing for a person to have to manage, in addition to potentially taking up an inventory slot. In single player RPGs, it's given a pass since you aren't really contending with anyone except the computer, but if you were in an MMO and your shtick was to be the ranged guy, when you inevitably run out of ammo in a very long PvP battle, you're totally boned if the melee guy still stands.
My favourite response to ammo might be in Mutants and Masterminds, where the initial suggestion is that your characters will bring enough ammunition to deal with the mission at hand, and it also provides the GM with a sudden and logical complication at potentially crucial points where it can boost the drama.
I'd say the thing to consider in regards to how ammo relates to a blue bar is that the green and blue bars aren't as literal as Health and Endurance, but rather, they represent your character's capability to fight. As your Endurance fluctuates, you are in a position where you are having to find cover, aim, reload and take a breather as you continue to fight. Inspirations would then also factor into this.
As far as new powers go, I would suggest perhaps a tertiary set that allows you to set up a series of supporting beacons or hotspots, like the Triage Beacon. One would boost regen and be changed, as the player chooses, from a device to a medical bag, and another could boost recharge and recovery and be something like an ammo cache.
In that same swing, a click boost to firearm based attacks could bolster recharge rates and recovery rates for a short period as you Lock and Load.
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^^^ this.
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