So I don't like saying this here. But I have my reasons that I'll get into in a moment.
I have HUGE concerns about this game. I've been keeping an eye on this game that I was under the understanding was mainly private servers resurrecting CoX, a game I wish I had the opportunity to play but never did. Natrually when I joined here, I was excited.
I no longer, however, have that level of enthusiasm. When I first signed up here, I recall seeing posts here when this was but a blog talking about the game...from 4 years ago. Here we are, 4 years later, with from what I can tell nothing to show from it other than videos that may or may not actually be the finished product, and a beta that is SUPPOSEDLY MAYBE coming this fall. I'm curious if a staff member/dev for the game can give us some screenshots here from the actual engine to show us who may be, like me, a bit wary of this game and if it may be vaporware at this point, and if it comes to it, if we can potentially see our way out in the way of account deactivation. I want to play this game, but not if it means continually waiting for however long it may be with no announcements or status updates as to where they sit with the game, and vague possibilities as to when the game will actually launch.
I want to play this game, but for all I know, there could be legalities preventing the game from going live, and I can't speak for anyone else, but if that's the case and NCSoft and Cryptic Studios are standing in the way of this game going live, I DO want to see myself out at this point as I won't play a game that if it ever DOES go live may be shut down by one or both of the aforementioned studios at any moment's notice.
Thanks for putting up with this somewhat negative post. Normally I'm not a skeptic, but considering that there's been 4 years since I first learned work was going on this game and there's JUST NOW talk of a beta maybe possibly coming this fall, I think that my concern is warranted.
EDIT: I forgot to add that the fact they need a 2nd Kickstarter for the game is also of concern to me-I'm not entirely sure how much they made the first time around, but this game was very highly hyped from what I heard, so I'm assuming that it was a fair amount. Are there internal issues at Missing Worlds Media? Financial troubles? Legal issues? Overhiring? Unable to finance adequate servers?
EDIT 2: So I just looked on the Kickstarter-and I noticed that they made $678,189 over 33 days. So...if they made that much money in a month, they shouldn't have a need to launch in my opinion another Kickstarter UNLESS there were some other underying issues, as I get making an MMO is EXPENSIVE, but not THAT expensive. So I even more than before would like some insight as to why we are still waiting for a beta here 5 years AFTER the Kickstarter ended.
First of all, allow me to thank you for posting your concerns in a reasonable fashion, without hyperbole. I think it's perfectly reasonable to have concerns, even if for my own part I have very few.
I think for a software project this big MWM, as an all-volunteer organisation developing in their spare time, has actually made amazing progress. Even big professional studios can take longer than this to develop a game, and most of the time when they rush to meet originally forecasted release dates even these big studios can fail with what could have been an excellent product if they had just waited till it was ready -- so in some ways I'd say the delays are actually a good thing. But I do think MWM is showing the progress they are making, so I'm not really concerned that CoT is just vaporware. If I had to identify any worries, they would probably be more related to how easy it will be for MWM to transition from a volunteer organisation to a salaried one with a robust support system to keep the game running and deal with player problems. Still, I think that's a phase we'll be able to get through together if we, as players, are patient.
From what I've seen of the design of this game so far, I think CoT has remained at a safe enough distance from the old game to avoid any legal issues. They're not using any of the original IP, and I think any other aspect of the game design and mechanics is either original or one that can be found in other MMOs, so that one couldn't build a reasonable case that this is a copyright infringement of the old game.
As for the Kickstarter campaigns, it's my understanding that the funds from the first one were used to buy the s/w tools they needed to build the game. As for the upcoming Second Chance campaign, that arose primarily from the requests of future players who missed the first campaign. MWM has specifically said they don't want to run another one until they have something more tangible to give us, and that they didn't really have any use for further money yet anyway. I think now they plan to use any future funding drive to help with the transition from all-volunteer to a salaried organisation, which makes sense to me.
I don't know if any of that helps assuage your worries, but I'd recommend just hanging on and being patient. It doesn't cost you anything to wait and see, does it?
Anyway, those are my 2inf on the subject.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Would you mind posting where they post this then? I would love to keep up to date with the game, and as for the reason behind the second campaign, that actually makes a lot of sense! And everything you said there does in fact ease some of my concerns! I also was not aware that MWM was all-volunteer! I assumed that like most dev studios they had a proper staff.
By the way, thanks for those answers, and the compliment. The info you game is enough to ease my fears now though, with my remaining questions being more of structure and longevity moving forward: Will the game cost anything at launch to play for those that are either unable to or miss our on both campaigns, as I'm assuming that access to the game is going to spring from that as well as other perks, or will it launch free-to-play? And will there be a sub option, and if so, will it be like World of Warcraft and be required to play the game, or if I choose to, can I play entirely for free, like Cryptic's current MMOs?
I would suggest spending some time reading through topics here on the forums (and then moving on to the next topic once it devolves into just arguing). You have a lot of assumptions that have been addressed/answered over and over here on the forums before.
"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit
Hi! I just wanted to confirm that our entire dev team are all volunteers on this project. Many work, have families, and spend much of their remaining time hard at work to make this game a reality.
Not only are we all volunteers, but we are spread out across the US and in other countries. As a result, our work is very compartmentalized and modular. Sometimes when pieces come together, integration introduces new issues. Sometimes we plan to use pieces as it’s own module as a plug in, which will help us, but this is not always the case.
We did have a successful KS and over 600k was raised by our loyal fans. Yet even with a volunteer work force, these funds are a drop in the bucket composited tonyour typical mmo budget. 60 million is a more accurate estimate of an mmo.
Not too long ago an industry veteran commented how his studio raised 6m for their mmo project and said how that was a bare bones budget. So you can imagine how wise we have had to be with our budget. Which is why we do plan on a second chance for funding. But not until there is more to show for it.
Now when the game launches, the plan is that it will be buy to play with an optional sub.
As for our latest in-engine rendering for public view, look no further than our July 4th teaser. Yes, that was done in the game.
Watch our announcements page for news every other week.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
This thread may also prove helpful.
https://cityoftitans.com/forum/compilation-information-city-titans
I think Tannim has addressed most of your points (btw, the willingness of devs to respond to players' questions in detail -- and with great patience -- is yet another reason I have a high level of confidence in this project), but to add a bit more info...
I can understand that it can be difficult to keep track of everything about CoT, given how much info has been discussed over the years. Anyone who hasn't been here from the very start checking the forum almost every day must feel as lost as a moviegoer whose first Marvel film is Infinity War. :-)
Never fear, though! Help is available in the form of this thread compiled by Pyromantic:
https://cityoftitans.com/forum/compilation-information-city-titans
Heh, I was starting to provide further info about the purchase/subscription model, but even that info is in the thread linked above. Even more kudos to Pyro.
EDIT: D'oh -- pipped at the post by Impulse King!
Spurn all ye kindle.
One other point I'd like to address was to let you know that there have been many "evolving responses" to the shutdown of CoH over the years.
I believe some of the original MWM folks were among the people who first attempted to negotiate getting the official rights to resurrect third-party private servers to run the CoH code. When it eventually became clear that NCSoft was not going to entertain anything along those lines the various fan groups reacted in various ways. Groups like MWM decided if they couldn't use the official CoH code they'd go ahead and create their own game(s). There are now several "spiritual successor" projects all trying to recreate new superhero MMOs that honor CoH's look-n-feel. I personally think CoT has the best chance of success but YMMV.
Also just as FYI there are other folks who are taking the original CoH client and working to directly "reverse engineer" it to allow for things like [url=https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Paragon_Chat]Paragon Chat[/url]. Those efforts are still pretty far away from being considered actual "games" but they are doing their own things nonetheless.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Also; SEGS is along the lines of a CoH-based client, if the OP is still interested in giving the original game a go... eventually
Read further here: https://www.segs.io/
Hi startrekkie1701, I hope you stick around the forums and chat, there have been a lot of updates and discussions over the years. We probably talk way too much. Your concerns are understandable but as Lothic said, this is a whole new game inspired by CoX but unrelated to it. The characters, setting, and story are all new and unique. It will be a current generation MMO.
I’m personally very excited about the customization options which to me seem like nothing I’ve ever seen in a video game, and for the first time I feel like I can come up with an idea for a superhero character and just make it, rather than try to create a character within a limited range of options.
Are there plans to make mwm a full time studio? I know this will be a huge step.Would it be before or after launch?
Thats likely not to happen until a looong time after launch, probably years after. Gotta remember that MWM is largely different people across the globe working on the game in sections. In order to become a full time studio, I imagine they'd have to settle on an office space of some sort that everyone could report to. Which would require for certain people to move from where they're originally located.
"If I am to die in battle, Remember me for who I was and not what I've become..."
I seem to recall Doc Tyche saying that making it so that at least some of the current volunteers could become full-time, paid employees would be the goal of the Second Chance fund drive, and something that they wanted to do before going live.
Spurn all ye kindle.
It's true that MWM is currently made up of a bunch of volunteers spread around the world but I would think they'd have to start "settling down" in some kind of centralized location fairly soon if they haven't already. Remember the physical server hardware for the game needs to be located somewhere and it would make sense for all of that to be more or less in one place for logistical/personnel reasons.
Basically the understanding I have is that MWM will become an "official full time studio" pretty much as soon as they launch the game (or even when the Second Chance thing happens) and have actual income to hire people with real full time salaries.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Oh yeah I got that part! I think I remember reading somewhere on these forums that the Devs had been looking for available office spaces they could settle down at. I was mostly referring to the fact of how soon they could possibly get said office space, where it would be located and how it would or could affect certain members of the team.
"If I am to die in battle, Remember me for who I was and not what I've become..."
This is what I recall as well.
When that happens I will really start getting excited. So far I have tried to not expect too much and just waste time in wow or swtor.
These days it is entirely possible to pay someone else to host and maintain your servers. With advancements in virtual environments and economies of scale cloud hosted infrastructure as a service is a very feasible possibility. It may even be preferable to a scattered organization like MWM. They could absolutely continue to function spread out around the world without a central traditional headquarters, data center, and other physical locations.
It just means they have to pay someone else to do those things, and rely on them for those services, instead of doing it themselves. This isn't necessarily a bad thing for a small organization. If they lack team members to fill critical roles in networking, security, administration, etc buying that expertise from outside the organization provides a handy solution.
There are pros and cons to this sort of setup but it is very attractive to small organizations that don't have the money, staff, real estate, and infrastructure to build and maintain their own enterprise networks and server farms. Modern solutions in this vein often offer scalability on demand as well, and can easily grow with a successful organization.
Of course if they've got a solid core of experienced IT professionals on the team already that are near each other and/or willing to relocate (and will cost MWM equal or less than going with a cloud solution) this becomes much less attractive.
There are good arguments for both doing it yourself and outsourcing and it really depends on the needs and resources of an organization.
Theoretically it is entirely possible for them to all work from home and never have to pay for physical offices for the company as well.
As a quick related story I once visited an IBM facility outside Boulder, CO for some training sessions and we got (as a sort of a side benefit) informal tours of much of what was going on there. But the one area we were not allowed to see was where they kept the server farms that were hosting third party websites. In fact the security for those areas was tighter than I've seen for some secure areas on U.S. military bases around the world.
Anyway as far as third-party hosting for CoT goes I suppose that's always something MWM could look into if they haven't already. Like everything else it'll come down to how much the different options cost. If outsourcing their servers is cheap enough then maybe that's what MWM can do.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The servers and network alone are only part of the cost. The physical real estate you'd need and skilled people you need are significant.
Even ignoring all the cost benefit analysis of those factors, the simple fact that MWM is physically scattered makes a cloud solution inherently a bit more appealing.
It would mean being able to maintain their current operational paradigm where they can hire people regardless of location, bring volunteers on as full timers regardless of location, etc. They could do this with a physical location of their own as well of course but they would have to have at least some core staff in certain places.
One last thing to consider is that, in my personal experience, getting decent service from third party vendors in this way looks great on paper but can be quite a burden for a small organization. The main reason is that third party hosting companies that can offer good deals tend to be rather monolithic monstrosities that may promise you the world and care very little for small customers once they have signed a contract. It can be very difficult to get decent service when you are a small fish and can't put much pressure on a vendor. Going with small vendors is no assurance of quality either. While you may have a more personal interaction and they may place more value on your business relationship they may simply not have the expertise and resources that bigger companies can throw around.
As with anything else, lots of research, legwork, networking, and shopping around helps.
And of course, never take anything that comes from a sales rep's mouth at face value. No matter how small your business is you can bargain for a better deal if you do your homework ahead of time.
We pretty much have to assume at this point that MWM is far enough along that they've already "pulled the trigger" so to speak on what they're planning to do about their servers.
It might be interesting if they could give us a high-level summary of their plans for that when time allows. As a mere player I certainly don't "need" to know how they plan to organize all of that but eventually it might be nice to be given a broad outline of how it's being handled.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
For production, cloud is the correct approach. When your needs can vary up or down over time, it's very handy.
For development, when need is more fixed, cloud rapidly becomes very pricey. For the cost of 3 months of cloud, you can buy the needed hardware and the pipe needed, which is what we did. We have an update showing off our development server setup I recall.
It's just a few machines, but is more than enough for our needs for the immediate future. When the time comes for more open access, we have the plan in place.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Yeah I think I vaguely remembered you had talked about what you were doing during development at one point. I suppose we were just more curious about what your "solution" might be for the launching of the game. I always assumed you had a "plan" for that regardless. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]