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PVP/PVE question

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ZeeHero
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PVP/PVE question

How will PVP be handled on "PVE" servers? will there be instances for PVP and areas where one can duel another character when both agree? this would be ideal for those who enjoy pvp now and then but don't like being randomly ganked.

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ZeeHero wrote:
ZeeHero wrote:

How will PVP be handled on "PVE" servers? will there be instances for PVP and areas where one can duel another character when both agree? this would be ideal for those who enjoy pvp now and then but don't like being randomly ganked.

PvP will be allowed on a different "phase" of the server as PvE. To expand, unlike CoH we won't have to choose a server as there will be only one server. Folks wishing for PvP may opt in or out through a process unknown at this time.

That's the short version. A more extensive discussion was had here...
https://cityoftitans.com/forum/how-should-pvp-phase-play-give-your-visions-here

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Cool will there be a special

Cool will there be a special area for one on one duels? I have a friend who I used to love dueling with in games and he would really appreciate a feature like that. even better if it could be done in more than one or 2 places. (Not social zones for obvious reasons)

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ZeeHero wrote:
ZeeHero wrote:

Cool will there be a special area for one on one duels? I have a friend who I used to love dueling with in games and he would really appreciate a feature like that. even better if it could be done in more than one or 2 places. (Not social zones for obvious reasons)

Special area? Not at launch, no. No reason you can't find a rooftop or something though.

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Oh so duels will be allowed

Oh so duels will be allowed in most places. that works well.

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ZeeHero wrote:
ZeeHero wrote:

Oh so duels will be allowed in most places. that works well.

You should be able to PvP anywhere, but not in the same shard/instance as the PvE game.
So, you and your battlin' buddy would have to drop out of the 'world' shared by those of us with zero interest in PvP, into a clone-world for PvP people. So, not a 'Duel' but a change of 'reailty' into one that allows players to fight each other.

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ZeeHero wrote:
ZeeHero wrote:

How will PVP be handled...

There is only one server. You can be in a PvE phase or a PvP phase of the world.
Tannim222 mentioned it specifically

Tannim222 wrote:

We have something that is rather a mix of the two. The entirety of Titan City will have its own pvp phase. Which is open world pvp - with rules to prevent ganking and some nifty ideas for earnjng rewards. However, you have to choose to enter into the pvp phase.

Here's some background information on Alignments & the PvP Framework (just the first two posts, the rest is theory crafting): PvP Phase Suggestion

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Overwatch is pure pvp and it

Overwatch is pure pvp and it uses a queuing system that tries to match players with other players of similar skill level. I'm not sure what skill level even means in a game that's not "twitch action" based, but I do like the idea of a PvP match system where you get in a queue and spawn on a PvP map, like an Incarnate Trial but for PvP.

I think that kind of PvP is inherently more enjoyable than just having an open world where its every toon for themselves. You can have all kinds of different PvP matches. 1v1, 3v3, XvX, whatever. You can have matches where the rules specify what classes are allowed and in what quantities, like "4v4, all guardians" etc. You can make symmetric maps that give neither team any inherent geographic advantage. You can have games like capture the control point, move the payload, etc.

Edit: All of Destiny 2's PvP stuff is also done on what are essentially private mission maps for the PvPers. Frankly, open world PvP is terrbile and is what gave us the famous South Park WoW episode. I have no interest in that. O also, in Destiny 2, the loot rewards you can get from PvP often do not require you or your team to win the match, you just have to participate. I've seen fewer occurrences of people intentionally throwing matches in D2 than I have in Overwatch. In OW, the players know they're being measured constantly using heuristics or whatever and some people throw to games to get easier opponents in the future. In D2, even thought I might only be in the match to get the reward for participating, I still try to win if I can as does everyone else, as far as I can tell.

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Skill level in a twitch based

Skill level in a twitch based action game means the same thing it means in a push 100 buttons game. it's just a different thing to be good at. Are you good at reacting quickly or are you good at pushing too many buttons?

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All I'm saying is, organized

All I'm saying is, organized PvP with queues and matchmaking and maps designed for it is way more fun, for me, than getting ganked by some geared-up, level-capped toon and his bros on an open world map.

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Oh absolutely.

Oh absolutely.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

All I'm saying is, organized PvP with queues and matchmaking and maps designed for it is way more fun, for me, than getting ganked by some geared-up, level-capped toon and his bros on an open world map.

We already know CoT is not going to allow "involuntary PvP". You will have to CHOOSE to put yourself in a situation where you could be involved in PvP so it's not really "open world PvP" in strictest traditional sense. It's only going to be "open world PvP" if you decide to want to PvP in the first place.

Having "queues and matchmaking and maps designed for it" might be nice for CoT but that would also require a huge amount of development effort that I'd rather they direct towards other efforts. If you're too worried about "getting ganked by some geared-up, level-capped toon and his bros" then don't opt into PvP while playing CoT.

Even at best CoT will never be a "PVP oriented" game. If you want a game that focuses on "queues and matchmaking and maps designed for it" you're going to have to play other games for that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

All I'm saying is, organized PvP with queues and matchmaking and maps designed for it is way more fun, for me, than getting ganked by some geared-up, level-capped toon and his bros on an open world map.

There are serious inherent flaws in the Elo system that match making systems use. It was never interested for larger gaming systems. It was originally created with chess in mind. The creator even said it was ultimately a flawed system and should not be adopted after people latched onto it.

CoH arenas were largely unsuccessful because the game was not designed for PvP.

Creating a map specifically for PvP in mind is intensive work. It gets even more difficult when you involve mobility. And even more when you combine ranged and melee combat.

What you will find is that with games like a Overwatch, you have no way of cosutomiznf your character functions and at the higher end of play you have a very limited use of the roster.

While we plan to have open world PvP, it will not allow for high level ganking to occur.


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Well, take me with a grain of

Well, take me with a grain of salt on all things PvP, because I'm not really that into it in any form, really. I do the occasional PvP thing in D2 now purely for the rewards you might get. On a weekly basis they'll offer you a new gun or armor piece that's guaranteed to be of a level you actually want if you participate in ONE PvP match, so I do that one match per week. There are still weeks when I skip it entirely. That said, I'm not averse to going back and doing a lot of the same old outdoor PvE stuff all over again, as long as I'm not totally alone.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Well, take me with a grain of salt on all things PvP, because I'm not really that into it in any form, really. I do the occasional PvP thing in D2 now purely for the rewards you might get. On a weekly basis they'll offer you a new gun or armor piece that's guaranteed to be of a level you actually want if you participate in ONE PvP match, so I do that one match per week. There are still weeks when I skip it entirely. That said, I'm not averse to going back and doing a lot of the same old outdoor PvE stuff all over again, as long as I'm not totally alone.

It actually sounds a little sad that they're having to "lure" people into PvP just for the chance to get some kind of periodic prize. Either you like PvP or you don't - they shouldn't be trying to entice (trick?) people who likely don't care for it just to be cannon fodder for those people who are going to PvP regardless.

I hope to whatever gods you pray to that CoT will NOT offer any kind of bait in order to have more people join in on the PvP. At least in CoH when you finished earning the PvP-oriented badges there was no further reason to step foot inside a PvP zone again if you didn't want to.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Well, take me with a grain of salt on all things PvP, because I'm not really that into it in any form, really. I do the occasional PvP thing in D2 now purely for the rewards you might get. On a weekly basis they'll offer you a new gun or armor piece that's guaranteed to be of a level you actually want if you participate in ONE PvP match, so I do that one match per week. There are still weeks when I skip it entirely. That said, I'm not averse to going back and doing a lot of the same old outdoor PvE stuff all over again, as long as I'm not totally alone.

It actually sounds a little sad that they're having to "lure" people into PvP just for the chance to get some kind of periodic prize. Either you like PvP or you don't - they shouldn't be trying to entice (trick?) people who likely don't care for it just to be cannon fodder for those people who are going to PvP regardless.

I hope to whatever gods you pray to that CoT will NOT offer any kind of bait in order to have more people join in on the PvP. At least in CoH when you finished earning the PvP-oriented badges there was no further reason to step foot inside a PvP zone again if you didn't want to.

They do it for all types of content, not just the PvP stuff. It’s their way of giving players both incentive to play, as well as a chance to “get better” (with more powerful gear, at least). Still, I agree with you that I hope CoT does not try to “bait” players in that way. I enjoyed the badge-related reward for my time in PvP zones much more than the roulette-style reward of “will it be what you want or need? Will it be junk? Who knows!”

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Rewards are an important part

Rewards are an important part of the content. content without rewards is ignored by a vast majority of the playerbase in favor of content with, regardless of whether they enjoy it or not. if PVP has no worthwhile rewards, not even people who enjoy pvp will do it.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

It actually sounds a little sad that they're having to "lure" people into PvP just for the chance to get some kind of periodic prize. Either you like PvP or you don't - they shouldn't be trying to entice (trick?) people who likely don't care for it just to be cannon fodder for those people who are going to PvP regardless.

I hope to whatever gods you pray to that CoT will NOT offer any kind of bait in order to have more people join in on the PvP. At least in CoH when you finished earning the PvP-oriented badges there was no further reason to step foot inside a PvP zone again if you didn't want to.

I'd like if pvp rewards were simply an alternative method of obtaining rewards that exist in pve content.
I'm not sure about what content we'll have, but an example using other games might be doing pvp for high end armor rather than doing dungeons, if that's not your thing.

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ZeeHero wrote:
ZeeHero wrote:

Rewards are an important part of the content. content without rewards is ignored by a vast majority of the playerbase in favor of content with, regardless of whether they enjoy it or not. if PVP has no worthwhile rewards, not even people who enjoy pvp will do it.

I didn't say there should not be rewards for accomplishing tasks in general. The entire foundation for "why anyone plays MMOs" is based on the idea that when you accomplish a goal you get a reward.

I'm simply pointing out that the scenario as defined by Radiac just sounds a little too much like they are having to bait non-PvPers into "the lion's den" just to give PvPers more fodder to shoot at.

Let me put it this way: If there is a way to get that same periodic reward Radiac talked about by doing one of SEVERAL OPTIONAL activities then fine, I'd have no problem with the PvP option. Case in point it looks like Grey Stone confirmed there are in fact several options available in D2. But if that particular "chance for reward" only existed if you PvP'd then I'd have to say that situation was just being used as a "lure" to get people into PvP. I definitely do -not- want to see that kind of thing in CoT.

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To be clear, the game, D2,

To be clear, the game, D2, levels you up by dropping gear on you that has a level higher than your current average gear level, then when you get that new "better" gear, you either equip it or dismantle it to make your current gear "better". This process of improving your current gear by dismantling your new gear is called "infusion", and it requires raw materials of various kinds. The rate limiting reagent in that infusion process (apart from the fact that you need the "better" gun or whatever to drop) is something called an "enhancement core" which you only need 2-3 of to do an infusion, but they only drop at random very infrequently. You can also get them from doing certain bounties.

The PvP reward that I am referring to is just one piece of gear that's random, but guaranteed to be "better" by at least one point above your current average. I might be a pistol , it might be a rocket launcher, it might be a helmet, it might be a pair of boots, etc, and if your current average gear level is 650, you might have level 645 boots and get a pair of 651 boots, which would be better. But you also might have a level 655 ghelmet and get a levle 652 helmt which looks nice, but is strictly worse than the helmet you already have (which, unfortunately, doesn't look as nice).

There are a number of annoying factors at work here. First, the age-old problem that the nice looking gear isn't the best in terms of stats in all cases. Second, you might decided to do content just to get the gear, not because you like that content. Third, even when the item drops, it might not really help you in the way it is intended to help you, depending on the current status of the gear you already have.

The part where I had to do the PvP to get the "better" gear drop is the least of my problems in this sense, because there are also tons of other things you can do to get those same random gear drops. Every mode of the game has some weekly "Get Powerful Gear" thing you can do. The real choke is the enhancement cores, which are mostly gotten from PvE bounties for a single contact.

Also, each mode, PvP, Strikes, other PvP etc has a set of armor you can collect. For Crucible (the main "pure PvP" mode) it's called "Wing Discipline". There's a Wing Discipline Helmet and a Wing Discipline chest piece, etc. Those can only be obtained from doing Crucible PvP content, as far a I know. you can;t even buy them for real money.

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Yeah I dont see a problem

Yeah I dont see a problem with pvp just being an alternate way to get the same PVE rewards especially if it gave the same currency which can be used to buy said rewards as PVE so you could do a little of both.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

To be clear, the game, D2, levels you up by dropping gear on you that has a level higher than your current average gear level, then when you get that new "better" gear, you either equip it or dismantle it to make your current gear "better". This process of improving your current gear by dismantling your new gear is called "infusion", and it requires raw materials of various kinds. The rate limiting reagent in that infusion process (apart from the fact that you need the "better" gun or whatever to drop) is something called an "enhancement core" which you only need 2-3 of to do an infusion, but they only drop at random very infrequently. You can also get them from doing certain bounties.

The PvP reward that I am referring to is just one piece of gear that's random, but guaranteed to be "better" by at least one point above your current average. I might be a pistol , it might be a rocket launcher, it might be a helmet, it might be a pair of boots, etc, and if your current average gear level is 650, you might have level 645 boots and get a pair of 651 boots, which would be better. But you also might have a level 655 ghelmet and get a levle 652 helmt which looks nice, but is strictly worse than the helmet you already have (which, unfortunately, doesn't look as nice).

There are a number of annoying factors at work here. First, the age-old problem that the nice looking gear isn't the best in terms of stats in all cases. Second, you might decided to do content just to get the gear, not because you like that content. Third, even when the item drops, it might not really help you in the way it is intended to help you, depending on the current status of the gear you already have.

The part where I had to do the PvP to get the "better" gear drop is the least of my problems in this sense, because there are also tons of other things you can do to get those same random gear drops. Every mode of the game has some weekly "Get Powerful Gear" thing you can do. The real choke is the enhancement cores, which are mostly gotten from PvE bounties for a single contact.

Also, each mode, PvP, Strikes, other PvP etc has a set of armor you can collect. For Crucible (the main "pure PvP" mode) it's called "Wing Discipline". There's a Wing Discipline Helmet and a Wing Discipline chest piece, etc. Those can only be obtained from doing Crucible PvP content, as far a I know. you can;t even buy them for real money.

To be honest I am a PvP lover in D2. I like the PvE stuff as well, but it is easier to grind your equipment in PvP, as you get enough tokens at the end of the day to buy 5 - 6 engrams. Meeting up with Xur occasionally, using your crystals you got from the PvP legendary items you dismantled and buy some nice exos.

In around 8 hours of playtime I got from 275 to 480 which is pretty decent for the first playthrough.

The problem I got is mainly the matchmaking. If you go comp or quick play, both do not account your level nor play time. Even premades are a big problem. Sometimes I play against full premades fireteams and of course their communication helps a lot. And if they are all around 650 avg and yours is around 480.

Well whatever.
Being someone who likes to do both, PvE and PvP I'd love to see both thriving and not getting partially neglected.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

The part where I had to do the PvP to get the "better" gear drop is the least of my problems in this sense, because there are also tons of other things you can do to get those same random gear drops. Every mode of the game has some weekly "Get Powerful Gear" thing you can do.

This was my main concern here. When you first mentioned this it sounded like the ONLY way to get this weekly gear was to do PvP. As long as there's multiple ways to earn weekly gear like that then that's fine.

The idea of "forcing" people to do something like PvP in order to get PvP-oriented rewards is fine. But a game shouldn't use the "lure" of generically random periodic loot in order to entice people to play a specific kind of otherwise unrelated content.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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When you infuse a piece of

When you infuse a piece of gear into another one, you end up essentially keeping the gun you like, but making it's level go up to the level of the gun you just got. This process destroys the gun you just got and let's you keep the gun you like while making your light level increase.

I wish they'd let you infuse in such a way as to be able to copy the looks of one gun onto the stats of the other. Or maybe just the armor could do that. I don't know. I feel lucky that I got a helmet that looks good (Ancient Apocalypse set, from PvEvP "Gambit") with stats I can work with.

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If there's anything that's

If there's anything that's kind of a chore I do for gear in D2, it's the bounties that get me Enhancement Cores. The Spider only has like 6 per week, and three of those require you to go to some outdoor zone and lay in wait for a world boss to spawn. Some of those bosses spawn in unpredictable parts of their zones, so you're paranoically roaming around looking for the boss while PRAYing he didn't spawn on the other side of the map as soon as you left. When they do spawn, they often get destroyed within seconds, and you have to get some damage in on him to get credit for the bounty. It also bothers me that they don't spread the Enhancement Core bounties around to other NPCs or have ways to get cores from doing other content. There's a "get Powerful Gear" mission or raid or strike or PvP match to do every week, but no "get Enhancement Cores" analog.

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I'm reminded of fallen earth.

I'm reminded of fallen earth. Ostensibly pvp was optional with pvp zones on the map. However, some of the components required for the higher tier crafting could only be acquired in the pvp zones.

I hated that. I would run in at like 2am and try to grab what I needed for the pve game before some nimrod would sniper me repeatedly until I gave up and logged off.

Being required to do that if I wanted to progress in the pve game was the primary reason I quit that game.

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Soulwind wrote:
Soulwind wrote:

I'm reminded of fallen earth. Ostensibly pvp was optional with pvp zones on the map. However, some of the components required for the higher tier crafting could only be acquired in the pvp zones.

I hated that. I would run in at like 2am and try to grab what I needed for the pve game before some nimrod would sniper me repeatedly until I gave up and logged off.

This example highlights what I was trying to warn against in my last few posts on this thread.

To be clear if those components you mentioned only had a purpose for PvP then forcing people into PvP zones to get them would be fine. But forcing people into doing specific things or going to specific places in order to get loot that otherwise might be generic enough to be found ANYWHERE in the game is something I do NOT want to see have happen in CoT.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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We currently have no plans

We currently have no plans for PvP specific loot. Can’t say what the future may ultimately hold, but there is nothing slated for it.

PvP will have its own achievements and badges related to PvP. Since PvP is a phase of the city, it will have all the PvE content as well. But there will be nothing specially designed that would require PvE players to have to enter the PvP phase to obtain for PvE.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We currently have no plans for PvP specific loot. Can’t say what the future may ultimately hold, but there is nothing slated for it.

PvP will have its own achievements and badges related to PvP. Since PvP is a phase of the city, it will have all the PvE content as well. But there will be nothing specially designed that would require PvE players to have to enter the PvP phase to obtain for PvE.

This is good to hear. But more generally speaking there shouldn't be ANY situation where in order to get a generic "daily" or "weekly" type of loot we'd have to go to any single/special type of place in the game to get it. This isn't just a PvP vs PvE thing.

For example making it so that we have to do one very specific Mission or Task Force (without option) to get a "daily" drop of a type of loot that might otherwise randomly drop anywhere. The net effect is that you'd be "luring" people to run very specific types of content in their hopes of a guarantee of getting a certain type of loot that might be random otherwise.

Making people choose between running content they might dislike/hate in order to be able to participate in some kind of a daily/weekly type reward system is not a good compromise. At the very least such a system should have multiple options for equivalent achievement (i.e. "kill 10 widget critters" that you could find in multiple places, not just in one single mission).

P.S. This all assumes that CoT will even have a "daily/weekly" styled loot/challenge system like the ones from other games being discussed here.

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WoW back in the day (Burning

WoW back in the day (Burning Crusade I think) had something of a PvP gate.

If you participated in PvP activities you’d earn “honor points” that you could then spend on gear. This was epic level gear that would be very difficult to get in PvE, and in fact required doing dungeons which you might have trouble getting into if your gear wasn’t good enough (obvious vicious circle there).

If you participated in PvP activities like battlegrounds you would earn honor and you didn’t even need to be very good at it. You could be awful but all that mattered is whether your side won. And even if you lost you still got points, just not as many. But you could grind out these activities to earn this gear (which were often called “welfare purples” since epic gear was identified with purple text).

So to advance in PvE, you’d grind PvP, buy welfare purples, raise your “gear score” to qualify for dungeons that would give you better epic gear. (The welfare purples had some PvP stats that only mattered when fighting other players so they weren’t as good for PvP as other epic gear but was still better for PvE than lower-ranked PvE gear.)

Clearly people were effectively being forced into PvP, but I didn’t mind because some of those PvP matches were fun (Alterac Valley was one of the best things I ever did in WoW) and I’d never have even given them a chance if I hadn’t felt forced into doing so.

Planet10
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Your memory of Classic/BC

Your memory of Classic/BC World of Warcraft & my memory are distinctly different. I was in a PvP guild on a PvP server and we raided. Grinding pvp gear was never a requirement. I was in a PvE raiding guild on a PvE server and we raided and we never pvp'd to grind gear in order to raid.

"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Your memory of Classic/BC World of Warcraft & my memory are distinctly different. I was in a PvP guild on a PvP server and we raided. Grinding pvp gear was never a requirement. I was in a PvE raiding guild on a PvE server and we raided and we never pvp'd to grind gear in order to raid.

It’s wasn’t totally necessary, but it sure was easier. There’s a reason they were called welfare epics. Here’s an article discussing them:
https://www.engadget.com/2008/03/27/wow-casually-welfare-epics/

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Your memory of Classic/BC World of Warcraft & my memory are distinctly different. I was in a PvP guild on a PvP server and we raided. Grinding pvp gear was never a requirement. I was in a PvE raiding guild on a PvE server and we raided and we never pvp'd to grind gear in order to raid.

Entering PvP to get that specific type of gear/loot might not have been a "strict requirement". But as Atama implied if jumping into PvP made getting that gear/loot "much easier" to acquire than any other alternative then I would effectively say players were in fact being LURED into PvP with the promise of getting those specific kinds of gear/loot faster/easier. That my friend is a sucky way to run a railroad...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I'm not against the idea of

I'm not against the idea of having random or rotating daily and/or weekly "flavor of the month" types of rewards for doing different bits of content. I like that it makes those individual activities popular for a brief time and get's the player base engaged and doing it. If you have 10 different Task Forces that could be done, and assuming you've made them equally lucrative in their own right during normal operation, that gives people a lot of choices, which is good, but it can make doing any one particular thing hard because you might not get a group together to do it, or they might not be able to agree on which TF to do. If there's a "Weekly Strike Target", there's a focus on that TF, which tends to herd the cats a little, which I personally like. Of course, that Weekly Strike Target is going to change every week, and dailies will rotate daily, so you're spreading the wealth to each TF or whatever over time. I like THAT.

I'm also not against having a Hamidon type deal where the big boss at the end drops themed items that only that boss drops. I feel like that makes sense from a flavor standpoint. I mean, I don't think people should have gotten HamiOs from beating random Trolls, Lost, or Rikti, for example. Not even the bosses or AVs. Frankly, I think the more challenging the activity is, the better the rewards should be at the end. If that means inventing a HamiO for the Hamidon to drop, I'm all for that. That said, I don't want to have to actually defeat someone in PvP to get a bit of PvE loot that I want. D2 makes you do that on rare occasion, and I tend to just ognore that loot and not do the PvP necessary to get it anyway.

Here's another D2 story. In D2 each Exotic gun you might find can be improved by finding and equipping the proper "catalyst" to it. The one gun I have, Skyburner's Oath, has the ability to penetrate through the tower shields wielded by certain Red Legion troops. I believe that gun only drops from defeating Red Legion, and the Catalyst you need to improve it only drops from the boss at the end of the one Red Legion raid. I would like to get that catalyst, but I have not ever done that raid, so I don't have it. That said, it doesn't bother me that they have specific loot dropping from specific types of bad guys or at the end of specific raids. If the loot is themed in some way to go with that faction, it makes sense that you have to fight that faction to get it. What bothers me is that D2 refuses to have PUG queues for raids (strikes, which are easier, have this, but Raids do not). I, being a soloer in this game because I don't know anyone in RL who plays D2, have no ability to put together a fireteam for a raid. In addition to not having a PUG queue for raids, they also don't have any areas where people congregate just to try to get in a PUG team for a particular raid. CoX had that, to a large extent, with TFs. If you wanted to do the Posi TF, you went to Steel Canyon and hung around near Posi and talked to people on local chat or LFTF channels or whatever. D2 makes you use various 3rd party social media websites and apps to get raid teams together. Personally, that really bothers me. I want to be able to team up with and have super groups etc with people whose email addresses I don't know, and whom I don't have to give my out-of-game info to either. I don't want some rando I PUGed with one time sending me pron emails or something. There needs to be a way to team up with people casually in a game like this without giving them info that I would only give to people whom I'd invite to my wedding.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising