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PvP: What turns you away?

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Folly
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PvP: What turns you away?

Let’s discuss things that turn people away from Player vs. Player and potential ideas of how to improve the situation. How do we keep new players interested and still able to compete against veterans? How do we keep veteran players interested without completely eliminating skills and rewards?

One of the main issues of other MMOs is time investment required to even stand a chance in PvP. The time investment being spent in PvE.

Standards of Entry Equipment, Level, Endgame Abilities

Equipment
Usually, you need some form of “gear” in order to compete. Gear is composed of various equipped pieces that provide bonuses that which influences your character – overall improves your abilities’ effectiveness. In order to obtain each piece, you must farm, grind, raid, craft – the lot. The “best” pieces are usually only obtained through the most difficult of content. The “average” gear is sometimes leagues behind those wearing the “best” suits. Acquiring all of these items requires an immense time investment. In the end – it’s PvE in order to PvP.

What if there was a point where your PvE-gear stopped being influential in PvP?
What if your PvE suit had absolutely no effect in PvP – rather you had a completely separate suit for PvP bonuses?
What if you could only acquire PvP gear through PvP content?
What if the “best” gear was only slightly better than average?

Leveling
Most MMOs only offer PvP content late, toward the end of the game, or that’s the only place players bother to PvP. This is particularly due to lack of access from PvP, which also brings up other issues such as time investment requirements, PvP hunger, and experience in how to PvP. Yet another “PvE in order to PvP” point.

I’ve read that there may be multiple instances of each zone – each containing a PvP version. Expanding on that, what if each zone had a “maximum level”? Those players higher than the maximum level will automatically drop to the highest allowed level upon entry. So if you are level 48 and enter Titan City between levels 1 and 10, you will automatically drop to level 10. This would allow players to PvP from the get-go, allowing players to get a taste of PvP, and get some PvP experience at an earlier level.

Endgame Achievement/Abilities
Sometimes, there are special abilities players may obtain after the maximum level to further progress. Correct me if I’m wrong as I did not play during this era of City of Heroes but, weren’t Incarnate abilities only available to obtain through PvE content at level 50? And they could be used in PvP? If so, that’s yet another time-investment – very much like Dark Age of Camelot’s Trial of Atlantis expansion which basically killed the game at it’s prime. It required players to endure 10 trials, completing a single trial could take ages and sometimes required a massive raid of 30+ players. It was also required to PvP. Without the special abilities and gear found in Trials of Atlantis you were at a disadvantage so massive it was hopeless to PvP.

Proposal
Add up the above: Gear requirement, Level requirement, and Endgame ability requirement - all only obtained from only one place: PvE. This all together could take months! What if you discover you don't like to class you are playing in PvP, even after all of that PvE content? What if after acquiring all of those items, you have no knowledge on how to PvP?

The typical MMO has the requirement “PvE in order to PvP”. My proposal is, to have two separate reward systems between PvE and PvP. Rewards obtained under one system will have no effect in the other; some things (such as leveling experience) may be excluded from this rule. This should help lower the standard of entry to PvP.

Thoughts?

So what turns you away from PvP?

Foradain
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Not sure how much "gear"

Not sure how much "gear" (even if it's called "upgrades", "enhancements", or "boosts") will be readily changeable in CoT. But some games (DCUO, WoW) do have specialized PvP gear, and I consider it to be a barrier to PvP. At the very least, it's stuff sitting in your inventory when you're not PvPing. At worst, it means that you have to obtain this gear, and requiring PvP to get it means that when you first PvP, you don't have it. Any system of PvP gear should, IMO, should have it available from PvE from whatever level PvP is first allowed. Also, there should be some easy way to tell that it is PvP gear, so that someone getting this gear (especially if it's a choice from a mission reward) knows immediately that it is of limited use in PvE. I don't consider a note that it boosts a stat that is only useful in PvP to be an easy way to tell unless that stat has PvP in the name.

I like your idea of dropping higher-level characters to the maximum for the area. One of my biggest problems with PvP is that until I have a character at or near maximum level, going up against a character that is at maximum level (even if the player behind that character is as inexperienced with PvP as I am) is a quick trip to the respawn point. One potential problem, though, would be scaling the gear down, if gear gets better as you level.

Endgame ability I would consider to just be a special case of a de facto level requirement.

Based on past experience, I will probably be, at most, only occasionally trying PvP. How well I do will depend on how well PvE has prepared me. For me, I think that an entirely separate reward system would actually be a barrier.

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I ultimately tend to think

I ultimately tend to think that most people have decided if they're going to PvP in a particular game long before they even start playing it. Yes it's always possible that a few people who never considered wanting to PvP may be sufficiently "enticed" to finally give it a try and actually enjoy it. But for the most part if PvP's not your main thing then no amount of in-game encouragement or "making it easy for noobs to face vets" is really going to change that.

Therefore I don't really have a problem with the general idea of PvP being more of a vet-oriented endgame type activity. People who are seriously into PvP are already motivated to jump through any "hoops" necessary to min/max their characters to stand toe-to-toe with their fellow PvPers so I don't really see an overwhelming need to make PvP something that would be "easy" to get into.

I'm not anti-PvP by any means (I probably spent at least 1000+ hours in CoH's PvP zones over the years) but even I probably wouldn't call myself a "PvPer" in the sense of considering it the main reason why I wanted to play CoH. After all is said and done I simply believe there are far more people out there like me who never really saw PvP as a strict priority in CoH. I'm not saying CoT should not have PvP at all and I hope many of the problems with it get addressed. I just wouldn't expect it to become a "bigger deal" in CoT than it was in CoH.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Darth Fez
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Quote:
Quote:

Equipment
Usually, you need some form of “gear” in order to compete. Gear is composed of various equipped pieces that provide bonuses that which influences your character – overall improves your abilities’ effectiveness. In order to obtain each piece, you must farm, grind, raid, craft – the lot. The “best” pieces are usually only obtained through the most difficult of content. The “average” gear is sometimes leagues behind those wearing the “best” suits. Acquiring all of these items requires an immense time investment. In the end – it’s PvE in order to PvP.

As I've said in one or two other PvP threads, I am under the impression that for many people, especially those who are not dedicated PvPers, gear is a turn-off. I understand the desire to provide some reward for PvPing and using PvP gear as a measure of 'l337ness', or whatever, but mostly it functions as a barrier to entry. If someone wants to try out PvP and is continually one- or two-shot because the other players have the great gear, they're that much less likely to continue to try. Especially if obtaining that gear requires an investment of weeks or months.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Quote:
Equipment
Usually, you need some form of “gear” in order to compete. Gear is composed of various equipped pieces that provide bonuses that which influences your character – overall improves your abilities’ effectiveness. In order to obtain each piece, you must farm, grind, raid, craft – the lot. The “best” pieces are usually only obtained through the most difficult of content. The “average” gear is sometimes leagues behind those wearing the “best” suits. Acquiring all of these items requires an immense time investment. In the end – it’s PvE in order to PvP.
As I've said in one or two other PvP threads, I am under the impression that for many people, especially those who are not dedicated PvPers, gear is a turn-off. I understand the desire to provide some reward for PvPing and using PvP gear as a measure of 'l337ness', or whatever, but mostly it functions as a barrier to entry. If someone wants to try out PvP and is continually one- or two-shot because the other players have the great gear, they're that much less likely to continue to try. Especially if obtaining that gear requires an investment of weeks or months.

And that is why a rating system should be enforced to split it up so that you are are typically fighting people of *approximately* the same rating as you... (gear rating/success you have personally had etc etc all factor in)

Hell in SWTOR (at least when I played) when you first went into a PvP match, you were given a set of PvP gear that would at least put you on the bottom rung of the ladder, and was *totally* suitable for PvP (ie the PvP bonuses). You could go in with your PvE gear, but it was a disadvantage.

The real problem is balancing open world PvP... because it is almost impossible to "stop the zerg" from happening...

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Folly
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My ideas were directed toward

My ideas were directed toward assimilating newer players into Player vs. Player world. Ease the transition into the “Big Leagues”. The best way to become skilled in PvP is to get some PvP experience. Having the typical requirements of gear, levels, and other endgame PvE content get in the way of obtaining this PvP experience.

Even if you had deep aspirations for PvP, those requirements still get in your way of enjoying – or at least trying the game you want to play. Countless times I have had guildmates share their experience of wanting to PvP in a game with these walls “The grind – it’s so horrible!” “Why should I have to level all the way to 60 and endure all of these silly raids just to play the damn PvP!?” “Hook a brotha up, you have no life right?”

As for gear, still coming up with ideas there. The main issue is eliminating the need to acquire the “best” gear that requires a ridiculous PvE time-investment in order to compete. Average-level gear could be available to obtain in both PvE and PvP areas. The higher-end tier gear however should only be slightly better than average. The high-end gear obtained from PvE should be scaled down in PvP so it does not become the requirement “PvE to PvP”. As for the high-end PvP gear, again, it should only be slightly better than your average. There could be multiple ways to obtain this gear such as completing a PvP objective or purchasing it with a PvP-exclusive currency.

As for scaling to the appropriate level of your zone, yes gear should scale down with you. Also your PvP rank, should there be a PvP Progression Reward system in place, should scale down with you as well. If you didn’t feel you were ready for a higher tier, then you had options to use arenas or visit lower-level areas to gain more PvP experience. Most games lock you out of lower-level PvP content, so your only way of gaining such experience was by rolling in the big leagues.

I understand PvP was not a highlight in City of Heroes, but that does not mean we should neglect its potential. Who knows, even with less emphasis on PvP, it could become one of the defining features of the game.

Folly
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Quote:
Quote:

The real problem is balancing open world PvP... because it is almost impossible to "stop the zerg" from happening...

Zergs are not entirely a bad thing to have - they can be used to counter elite guild groups, and they welcome all players. That's part of the beauty in Open-World PvP, it allows such playstyles.

The keys to balancing is having the tools provided to counter something. Rather than looking for a way to prevent zerging - you should seek a way to counter the zerg. Dividing a zerg into smaller portions or encasing them into a tight-clump are two ways that can make a zerg manageable. How can you do that? The use of Crowd-Control and maneuvering in or around buildings is a start. It won't be easy, but that's part of the thrill!

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

As for gear, still coming up with ideas there. The main issue is eliminating the need to acquire the “best” gear that requires a ridiculous PvE time-investment in order to compete. ... There could be multiple ways to obtain this gear such as completing a PvP objective or purchasing it with a PvP-exclusive currency.

I believe most, if not all, of the more recent MMOs provide access to PvP gear (if any) by means of PvPing and make PvP gear noticeably better for PvPing than PvE gear. The best PvE gear will certainly be competitive in PvP, to some extent, but I believe most people are aware that to accomplish a great deal in PvP requires PvP gear.

I still think that the entire idea of PvP gear is poor and should be overhauled. The premise behind gear in PvE is as a means to gate content, which was made all the more evident with the introduction of the 'iLevel' and its like. Unless the character's gear was of such and such level, that content was likely to prove to be too difficult or, in some cases, the player would not even be allowed to access that content. This idea has merit.* After all, the content is designed to become progressively more difficult, such that it is impossible to clear that content before a certain level (of gear) has been obtained. It's baked into the very idea of levels and leveling.

The purpose of gear in PvP is as an easy answer to the incentive-reward question. That's it. It's a PvE paradigm applied to PvP. Obviously how well or how poorly that works depends on the individual's expectations. For some it is about ganking, so this gear is fantastic because it allows ganking to be that much quicker and easier. For those who want to test their skill against other players, gear is a distraction. I think it's telling that PvP gear only because a consideration once the character has reached the level cap. Is leveling really so interesting for PvP that such players require an ongoing treadmill in order to continue PvPing?

Which brings me to the heart of the issue: Do PvPers (whether casual or dedicated) require an incentive or reward in order to PvP?

With the allowance that I've very rarely engaged in PvP, I think the answer is a resounding no. If there is any aspect of the game of which it could be said that playing it is its own reward, PvP is it. I think most PvPers would be more interested in getting new PvP maps than having to grind for a new set of gear with slightly larger numbers.



* This should not be considered an endorsement for the equipment grind style of endgame content.

Edit: Point of grammar.

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You left off a category: The

You left off a category: The other players.

I do PvE almost exclusively because if the computer beats me then I go to the hospital, pop a wakie or whatever. I don't think I ever saw the computer teabag my character while my daughter was watching me play or gloated over Broadcast about my defeat, inviting everyone in the zone to join in the ganking fun. This is a player issue and unless PvPers want to remain a tiny fraction of the playerbase they need to police themselves.

As for the other ideas: You cannot devote a significant amount of your resources to a portion of the game devoted to a relatively small class of players. It's fiscally irresponsible unless you have some sure-fire way to recoup the investment somehow. Redside in CoH did this and it died a slow, painful death despite having some of the best content in the game. Having a whole facet of the game so PvPers can play and level without using ANY PvE content is essentially a whole new game.

PvP would have one requirement: It would have to be FUN. However what we all consider 'fun' is as different as we are which is why building something for a large, diverse group is tough. So we have to settle for 'fun enough' meaning the good has to outweigh what we perceive as bad (wow...I wish I could choose where my Powers came from. Oh well, other than that one small thing this game is GREAT!).

My idea of fun would be solo duels with close matches which is tough to balance. Teams would be great too if I found a group I liked. It couldn't be Pay to Win because I would see that as unfair and leave. Any cool 'gear' available would have to be available to EVERYONE (yes, some ATs will have stuff other ATs won't have but they'll have OTHER stuff to balance out), not just the l33t few who feel like grinding out the same mission 100 times a week to gain the Shiny Ring of Ultimate-ness (tm).

PvP should NEVER impact PvE play. Just because your uber-cool PvP-only ability is OP doesn't mean my PvE version should be nerfed.

PvPers should WANT to play PvP content for the same reason everyone plays any game: To have fun. Make it fun for them and they'll play. Make it fun ENOUGH to offset any perceived negative feelings and the rest of us might even join you.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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@comicsluvr I agree

@comicsluvr I agree completely! One asshole is enough to stop me from PvP play.
And I especially agree with ”PvP should NEVER impact PvE play "

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Folly
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Quote:
Quote:

Which brings me to the heart of the issue: Do PvPers (whether casual or dedicated) require an incentive or reward in order to PvP?

In the long term – yes. Mind, rewards don’t have to always be gameplay influential, even PvP players will hunger for cosmetic items (Costume Pieces, Titles). How often have you “stuck it through” to see what the next ability in your spellbook does? That same effect can happen in PvP. PvP in itself is a grand reward, providing incentives to keep playing does keep people interested. It also provides for a sense of progression beyond the endgame, otherwise everyone would just keep rolling new toons.

As for acquiring gear in general, you should be able to acquire PvP gear through PvP content – not exclusively through PvE. Rather, you can acquire “gear” in both systems, or have separate systems that don’t interconnect for one requiring you to do the other.

Quote:

You left off a category: The other players. . . . I don't think I ever saw the computer teabag my character while my daughter was watching me play or gloated over Broadcast about my defeat, inviting everyone in the zone to join in the ganking fun.

You are free to bring up what what turns you away from PvP. I brought up the things that usually turned me away – which was PvE barriers I had to break in order to get to the PvP content.

Admittedly, the PvP players can be rather . . . eh . . competitive and nasty. I doubt it’s possible to completely eliminate the problem; however I do think it’s possible to reduce its occurrence. Start off with restricting easy-access chatting between enemy players. That could consist of completely removing the interconnected chats and easy “switching to an alt” to carry over a conversation.

Quote:

PvP should NEVER impact PvE play. Just because your uber-cool PvP-only ability is OP doesn't mean my PvE version should be nerfed.

I agree. “Dragons Nest” did something about this. Every ability has two versions: A PvE and a PvP version. The PvP version usually being slightly less effective than the PvE – which also extends the longevity of fights.

Just as I mentioned about incarnate abilities, there should be two separate systems. Rewards from PvP that can only be obtained and used through PvP, and Rewards from PvE can only be obtained and used through PvE. That way you never run into raids saying “Sorry, since you did not PvP to Rank ___ to get this ability, you cannot join.”

Quote:

My idea of fun would be solo duels with close matches which is tough to balance. Teams would be great too if I found a group I liked. It couldn't be Pay to Win because I would see that as unfair and leave.

That is where Arenas come into play – allowing players to always have fair fights for those who do not wish to face the unpredictability of Open-World.

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As a dual PvP/PvE player My

As a dual PvP/PvE player My main Pvp beefs are-

1. No reward. If I get no reward as far as far as XP or "gear" drops I wont play it, or at least very little.

2. To easy to troll. If there are map exploits ect to troll either your team or the opposing team I usually stop playing untill fixed.

3. Too Twitchy. I dont have the reflexes of a 12 year old, If the game focuses too heavily on reflexes I cant play well, and so I wont.

4. Hard counters. If every play type has another play type that hard counters it I find the PvP unfun. I like when every build has at least a moderate chance of winning aginst another.

5. Caps. Damage caps lead to healing caps/defense caps which makes new PvPers who are used to PvE have a harder transition. I wont quit because of them but I dont like it either.

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One of the great things I

One of the great things I loved about coh pvp was zone pvp not that instance garbage. As far as pvp suits late in coh u could switch from ur pve build to ur pvp build without much effort. I liked that you had to grind to earn iOs to be able to stand a chance in pvp hard work made u appreciate each kill that much more. What kills me is after u grind and get ur build just how u like it it gets nerfed death to the nerfer...in short I hope the pvp system mimic's coh or is not far from it hope to see all my old frienemies

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

You left off a category: The other players.
I do PvE almost exclusively because if the computer beats me then I go to the hospital, pop a wakie or whatever. I don't think I ever saw the computer teabag my character while my daughter was watching me play or gloated over Broadcast about my defeat, inviting everyone in the zone to join in the ganking fun. This is a player issue and unless PvPers want to remain a tiny fraction of the playerbase they need to police themselves.
As for the other ideas: You cannot devote a significant amount of your resources to a portion of the game devoted to a relatively small class of players. It's fiscally irresponsible unless you have some sure-fire way to recoup the investment somehow. Redside in CoH did this and it died a slow, painful death despite having some of the best content in the game. Having a whole facet of the game so PvPers can play and level without using ANY PvE content is essentially a whole new game.
PvP would have one requirement: It would have to be FUN. However what we all consider 'fun' is as different as we are which is why building something for a large, diverse group is tough. So we have to settle for 'fun enough' meaning the good has to outweigh what we perceive as bad (wow...I wish I could choose where my Powers came from. Oh well, other than that one small thing this game is GREAT!).
My idea of fun would be solo duels with close matches which is tough to balance. Teams would be great too if I found a group I liked. It couldn't be Pay to Win because I would see that as unfair and leave. Any cool 'gear' available would have to be available to EVERYONE (yes, some ATs will have stuff other ATs won't have but they'll have OTHER stuff to balance out), not just the l33t few who feel like grinding out the same mission 100 times a week to gain the Shiny Ring of Ultimate-ness (tm).
PvP should NEVER impact PvE play. Just because your uber-cool PvP-only ability is OP doesn't mean my PvE version should be nerfed.
PvPers should WANT to play PvP content for the same reason everyone plays any game: To have fun. Make it fun for them and they'll play. Make it fun ENOUGH to offset any perceived negative feelings and the rest of us might even join you.

This. I think sometimes the other players that are part of that section can have huge impact.

A meh system with a bunch of great people to play with can go along way. An uber super cool system but filled with straight butts and trolls, can still find itself nearly empty and some little small dark corner that most players do not talk about and when new players get here asking about it, people say do not go there. And some dont or some do, get ganked, tea bagged, insulted and leave for good thinking "Geesh, you guys were right!" What can be done? That is up to the PVP community. If we pvpers want it to grow then we must think about the bigger picture or cant whine and complain when majority of the other players ask for a change in a game where the devs listen to the crowd and out numbered about the change that cause lots of nerfs that affect PVP.

I dont think PVP gear should be some super grind thing unless that is the target audience but that have to be known. Cant say "Oh this is for casual player" on paper then turn around in reality the casual player do not stand snowball chance on the surface of the sun because he didnt spend 100 of hours grinding for that leet gear, which is anything but causal play.

I think one way is to somehow set up a system where there are levels. Beginner levels, people with this amount of gear or that amount or this sort of gear, people killed, or something. That way beginner players can get their feet wet with some will experience and learn the system. Dying every two shots do not teach anything although "LEARN TO PLAY!!!" is commonly yelled in PVP zones. But how can they learn to play if they cant even take two steps without some leet geared toon one or two shotting them before they can even press a single attack button? Or do not stand a single chance of getting a single hit in?

Or some way where people cannot engage a person that is significantly below their level. Now how this would work I do not know yet it's just some ideas.

But one thing I think is significant is what Comicsluvr said, the other players. Players can make or break how well or how well received PVP is in a game.

What is fun to me is a good fight, win or lose. Fighting in fights I have a stand a chance of winning or losing where it could go either way. No fun in beating up, for me and like above and usual and just about every post I make, speaking for myself, what is fun for me, beating up on people with no chance of winning is no fun and having no chance of winning is no fun. Especially no fun when it's lopsided team wise, because there are 10-20 on one side and no one to even team with on the opposing end, whether I just happen to be on the most populated side or not. *do not assume*

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

Quote:
Which brings me to the heart of the issue: Do PvPers (whether casual or dedicated) require an incentive or reward in order to PvP?
In the long term – yes. Mind, rewards don’t have to always be gameplay influential, even PvP players will hunger for cosmetic items (Costume Pieces, Titles). How often have you “stuck it through” to see what the next ability in your spellbook does? That same effect can happen in PvP. PvP in itself is a grand reward, providing incentives to keep playing does keep people interested. It also provides for a sense of progression beyond the endgame, otherwise everyone would just keep rolling new toons.

Precisely. Rewards that have no impact on game play are ideal for PvP. Titles are a great example. Providing costume pieces as a reward is likely to be a very hot potato, since there are many people who feel very strongly that all costume pieces should be available in the avatar builder (although there may still be room for this since I have no idea how people at large felt about crafted costume pieces, some of which were by no means easily obtained). But that's a discussion about fine-tuning the details.

Quote:

Quote:
PvP should NEVER impact PvE play. Just because your uber-cool PvP-only ability is OP doesn't mean my PvE version should be nerfed.
I agree. “Dragons Nest” did something about this. Every ability has two versions: A PvE and a PvP version. The PvP version usually being slightly less effective than the PvE – which also extends the longevity of fights.

If that is as far as it goes, that isn't a problem. The idea that must be kept in mind is that if there is a difference in how powers behave in PvE or in PvP, these differences must be minimal. If they are not, this becomes another barrier to entry because people will have to relearn how to play their characters. Nobody wants to jump into PvP and look like a fool because they no longer have a proper understanding of the powers they used for that last 30 or 50 levels. The need to learn a new play style in order to be effective in PvP will be daunting enough for most dabblers.

That said, I agree that tweaking or balancing powers for PvE should not affect PvP, and vice versa. Or, as I am wont to say, "Don't get your PvP in my PvE."

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Folly wrote:

I don't understand the need to police a PvP environment any harsher than the rest of the game. Just lay out rules of the game that apply to any instance in the game, PvP, PvE or otherwise and let the Dev's deal with it.

If you're getting so upset about being trolled in PvP by someone who's most likely to either be bad themselves or a 13 year old kid, then IMHO the issue lies with you not the troll.

As far as powers acting differently in PvP and PvE goes that is a horrible idea and was one of the first steps to destroying what was a once good PvP system in CoX.

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Quote:
Quote:

I don't understand the need to police a PvP environment any harsher than the rest of the game. Just lay out rules of the game that apply to any instance in the game, PvP, PvE or otherwise and let the Dev's deal with it.

There are some cases where an ability is just downright cruel for PvP use, adjusting it for PvP isn't fair to the PvE players who rely on this. Sometimes abilities are absolutely useless in the PvP scenario but ridiculous in the PvE scenario.

Monsters are typically significantly weaker to Crowd-Control effects. You can usually keep them permanently controlled by reapplying an effect before it expires. How would it be any fun if you could be stun-locked (or Hold-locked) by another player for an entire fight? Or standing in an Ice Slick patch made you slip indefinitely for the entire duration? This is where immunities are usually implemented, or abilities receive different versions for either PvE or PvP use, or the abilitiy is just nerfed in all parts of the game, or a combination of the above.

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

Quote:
I don't understand the need to police a PvP environment any harsher than the rest of the game. Just lay out rules of the game that apply to any instance in the game, PvP, PvE or otherwise and let the Dev's deal with it.
There are some cases where an ability is just downright cruel for PvP use, adjusting it for PvP isn't fair to the PvE players who rely on this. Sometimes abilities are absolutely useless in the PvP scenario but ridiculous in the PvE scenario.
Monsters are typically significantly weaker to Crowd-Control effects. You can usually keep them permanently controlled by reapplying an effect before it expires. How would it be any fun if you could be stun-locked (or Hold-locked) by another player for an entire fight? Or standing in an Ice Slick patch made you slip indefinitely for the entire duration? This is where immunities are usually implemented, or abilities receive different versions for either PvE or PvP use, or the abilitiy is just nerfed in all parts of the game, or a combination of the above.

I'm confused by what you quoted and what you responded to it. In any case those things did use to apply in PvP before i13 and the system worked far better. You would prepare and adjust according to what and who you're fighting by bringing breakfrees or teaming with a complimenting team mate(s). Essentially what was a system that used to require some level of skill was reduced to a damage spam fest.

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"Break Free" items should

"Break Free" items should have never been allowed in PvP because of this. It's one of the reasons I never cared for City of Heroes' PvP in the first place.

Such tools should be kept within abilities, not freely available items. An immunity system for a duration after an effect expires also helps.

Folly
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Excuse me for having a

Excuse me for having a different point of view.

I opened this post because I'm curious about what others find so repulsive in other PvP games and if we can come up with a solution. If we don't discuss what we would like (and wouldnt like) to see in the PvP aspect of the game - how are the developers supposed to know what we are looking for? The outcome is clearly what we deserve for not speaking up earlier.

Can you convince me that something as potent as "Break Frees" freely available for purchase belong in the game, or any game for that matter? Preferably without attacking me. Keep it civil please.

The reason why I believe they should be kept within abilities is so they have cool-downs, or call for teamwork.

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Build Parity is the first

Build Parity is the first thing that matters to me. It bothers me when "solo" builds do better than my entire team of "group mechanics" builds.

Lack of team mechanics in PvP is also un-fun to me (as a supporting debuff character especially). I will be playing in the debuff role and don't want the entire role nerfed to null because players hate movement debuffs, cast time debuffs, and/or perception debuffs.

I also hate the lack of RP immersion in PvP.. or better the idea that just because the other people there are not in character I should be expected to be out of character as well.

Finally the ego clashes are lame. I really hope PvP has a closed circuit where your opponents cannot read ANY text from you (zone, local, special chats.. any of them) until combat is concluded.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

Can you convince me that something as potent as "Break Frees" freely available for purchase belong in the game, or any game for that matter? Preferably without attacking me. Keep it civil please.
The reason why I believe they should be kept within abilities is so they have cool-downs, or call for teamwork.

Break frees were a solution to squishy classes being mezzed and quickly destroyed while they were incapacitated. Particularly by a team of individuals focusing one person. Mezzing and destroying an enemy is great fun when you're dishing it out, not so much being on the receiving end.

Yeah you could have buffs from teammates or abilities with cooldowns, but what if you were solo with a build that didn't include anything? You were against inspirations being in the game period, or specifically against it in pvp?

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Since the likes of arenas and

Since the likes of arenas and battlegrounds are the only places MWM can hope to provide some kind of controlled environment, these are where they could play around with various models. For example, that any given inspiration can only be used once per match, give them a cooldown so that they cannot be spammed, or disallow them entirely. I agree that it would be counterproductive to allow inspirations to make or break a match.

CC is always going to be a big sticking point in PvP. Too much and controllers (and likely debuffers in general) will dominate, too little and they will be helpless.

JayBezz wrote:

Lack of team mechanics in PvP is also un-fun to me (as a supporting debuff character especially). I will be playing in the debuff role and don't want the entire role nerfed to null because players hate movement debuffs, cast time debuffs, and/or perception debuffs.

I agree that teams is where CoT PvP must be focused. The idea that archetypes and power sets can be balanced for a 1vs1 scenario is pure fantasy. That's not to say that the option should not be available, though it should certainly not be a focus of the PvP experience.

That thought also made me realize that the best answer for the role of the controller in PvP may that of (de)buffing. This may be obvious, since controls are basically debuffs and thus the controller's raison d'être. However, since I've no idea how many people actually took that view it could be worth stating explicitly. Controllers became so effective in CoH PvE* that it had never really crossed my mind that they filled what was essentially a support role.



* So effective, in fact, that it is no surprise if most players were disappointed in the performance of controllers in PvP. Especially if they thought that other players would equate to mere minions or lieutenants.

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Quote:
Quote:

Break frees were a solution to squishy classes being mezzed and quickly destroyed while they were incapacitated. Particularly by a team of individuals focusing one person. Mezzing and destroying an enemy is great fun when you're dishing it out, not so much being on the receiving end.
Yeah you could have buffs from teammates or abilities with cooldowns, but what if you were solo with a build that didn't include anything? You were against inspirations being in the game period, or specifically against it in pvp?

I understand it was a counter to Crowd-Control. But was it really the best way of a counter? With its implementation – it almost rendered Crowd-Control obsolete. As Psycho Jas said, it reduced fights to damage spam.

As for the solo situation, I have a few ideas – however they all contain a form of cool-down. Note, as a Solo you will always be at a disadvantage compared to groups. If you had everything, why even bother building groups? That is why roles are usually split into multiple classes in MMOs to promote teamwork: Crowd-Control, Hybrid, Ranged, Tank, Offensive-Tank, Support.

Quote:

Lack of team mechanics in PvP is also un-fun to me (as a supporting debuff character especially). I will be playing in the debuff role and don't want the entire role nerfed to null because players hate movement debuffs, cast time debuffs, and/or perception debuffs.

This in addition to the above mentioned issue of “Break Frees” – I can relate.

Quote:

I also hate the lack of RP immersion in PvP.. or better the idea that just because the other people there are not in character I should be expected to be out of character as well.

I miss the good ol’ days of RP-dedicated servers. RP-flags just don’t cut it since other players that are not RP-ing will break the immersion.

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

Quote:
Break frees were a solution to squishy classes being mezzed and quickly destroyed while they were incapacitated. Particularly by a team of individuals focusing one person. Mezzing and destroying an enemy is great fun when you're dishing it out, not so much being on the receiving end.
Yeah you could have buffs from teammates or abilities with cooldowns, but what if you were solo with a build that didn't include anything? You were against inspirations being in the game period, or specifically against it in pvp?

I understand it was a counter to Crowd-Control. But was it really the best way of a counter? With its implementation – it almost rendered Crowd-Control obsolete. As Psycho Jas said, it reduced fights to damage spam.
As for the solo situation, I have a few ideas – however they all contain a form of cool-down. Note, as a Solo you will always be at a disadvantage compared to groups. If you had everything, why even bother building groups? That is why roles are usually split into multiple classes in MMOs to promote teamwork: Crowd-Control, Hybrid, Ranged, Tank, Offensive-Tank, Support.
Quote:
Lack of team mechanics in PvP is also un-fun to me (as a supporting debuff character especially). I will be playing in the debuff role and don't want the entire role nerfed to null because players hate movement debuffs, cast time debuffs, and/or perception debuffs.
This in addition to the above mentioned issue of “Break Frees” – I can relate.
Quote:
I also hate the lack of RP immersion in PvP.. or better the idea that just because the other people there are not in character I should be expected to be out of character as well.
I miss the good ol’ days of RP-dedicated servers. RP-flags just don’t cut it since other players that are not RP-ing will break the immersion.

No i13 reduced PvP to a damage spam fest. Prior to that when Break frees where useful and actually worked alongside many many other things, some level of skill and extra thought would be needed.

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I fail to see how Break Free,

I fail to see how Break Free, an item that is easy to obtain, has no cool-downs, and negates a significant portion of Crowd-Control, promotes skillful game play. Yeah, they were useful without a doubt. I still believe they were too useful and too convenient for PvP.

Regardless of the i13 situation, I think there could have been a better approach to countering Crowd-Control.

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

I fail to see how Break Free, an item that is easy to obtain, has no cool-downs, and negates a significant portion of Crowd-Control, promotes skillful game play. Yeah, they were useful without a doubt. I still believe they were too useful and too convenient for PvP.
Regardless of the i13 situation, I think there could have been a better approach to countering Crowd-Control.

The mez system prior to i13 was pretty broken IMO, but i13 was a land far far far far away from a fix to that problem.

In any case, take a 1v1 for example. (prior to i13) A Ice/Rad troller vs a typical Fire/Em blaster. While the blaster has to give up some reds and greens spots for break free's in his inspiration tray, the Ice/Rad will have the luxury to stock up on only greens and reds. So while the blaster can for the most part negate the Ice/Rads mez, he's given that up in place of extra greens or whatever.

My point is that carrying break frees was an 'instead of' not an 'as well as' and that came with risks, especially as they didn't last forever. Albeit, RV was slightly different than arena as you could leave zone and re stock.

The system wasn't perfect but it wasn't as bad as you're making it out to be, or game breaking or anything like that.

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

I understand it was a counter to Crowd-Control. But was it really the best way of a counter? With its implementation – it almost rendered Crowd-Control obsolete. As Psycho Jas said, it reduced fights to damage spam.
As for the solo situation, I have a few ideas – however they all contain a form of cool-down. Note, as a Solo you will always be at a disadvantage compared to groups. If you had everything, why even bother building groups? That is why roles are usually split into multiple classes in MMOs to promote teamwork: Crowd-Control, Hybrid, Ranged, Tank, Offensive-Tank, Support.

Yes it's reasonable to think that certain types of characters should have certain roles in a team. But I think you're missing the point of why this didn't work in pvp in coh. It was due to pve.

Most of the players in coh were casual, and most casual players didn't want to have to put together a proper team in order to clear missions. The coh devs catered to this by included a lot of things like temp powers and inspirations so that people could effectively solo. By the time you got to level 50 you had access to powerful abilities that were mainstays of other ATs and then incarnate powers on top of it. You ended up with blasters that had scrapper level survivability, off the hook damage, and some cc and/or debuffing powers thrown in. Why bring anything else?

So if you want to preserve the integrity of team dynamics, that's fine, but I don't really see this as a pvp-design issue unless you're advocating for 2 different game systems. Balance is something that gets destroyed on the pve side and then carries over to pvp. The difference is that npc mobs don't complain about team dynamics while other players do.

Folly
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Quote:
Quote:

The system wasn't perfect but it wasn't as bad as you're making it out to be, or game breaking or anything like that.

Let's make it better!

Quote:

Most of the players in coh were casual, and most casual players didn't want to have to put together a proper team in order to clear missions. The coh devs catered to this by included a lot of things like temp powers and inspirations so that people could effectively solo.

Instead of trying to make Soloing easier - how about an approach to make Group-building an easier and faster process? Not saying it should be impossible to solo, rather you should be encouraged to team up.

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

I understand it was a counter to Crowd-Control. But was it really the best way of a counter? With its implementation – it almost rendered Crowd-Control obsolete.

You'd actually have a really good point, except that your statement above is simply untrue.

I'll assume we are talking about pre-i13 mez, since breakfrees were basically useless in the post i13 system.

Characters that dealt in control effects (controllers, and to an extent dominators) were actually far and away the best characters for solo PvP, regardless of whether or not inspirations were used.

You're probably gonna be like "well not in my experience." Experience is subjective. Here are the facts.

My memory was a little hazy on some of the stats, so I referenced paragonwiki for some of the hold numbers.

Most non-melee characters had somewhere in the area of mag 3 hold resistance (from acrobatics). A controller or dominator hold was mag 4. The base hold duration was 15 seconds, and enhanceable to somewhere in the area of 30 seconds.

So, in a no inspirations 1v1 situation, a controller had to run up to any "squishy" character (that wasn't a controller with psi mastery or a /sonic defender), click one button, and then poof - that character could do nothing at all for 30 seconds (longer if you're running domination or you used power boost), and had all of its toggles dropped. I don't think I need to explain the problem with this.

With inspirations, all that changes is the amount of time it takes to get there. You could hold 20 breakfree inspirations in your tray. They gave mag 10 hold protection, and lasted for 30 seconds.

The average single target hold power had a recharge in the area of around 8 seconds. With enhancements in the power, you could reduce this to just over 4 seconds. Factor in set bonuses (for a controller build, this was usually 50 to 70%, 70% from hasten, another 30% from AM if you were a radiation controller, and suddenly that 8 seconds is more like 2.5. Factor in a cast time of roughly 1-2 (pending your primary) seconds, the fact that you're using other powers too, line of sight breaks, etc and you can stack about 10-15 of those every minute. Oh, and don't forget you can pop an accolade and have a minute with an additional +100% recharge on top of that, and that dominator holds are mag 8 while domination is running, which in most cases is always.

A mind/fire dominator could in 30 seconds stack 5-8 holds while still dealing damage with fire blasts. So, anywhere from mag 40 to mag 64. Meaning you'd have to pop 4-6 breakfree inspirations every 30 seconds. An arena duel lasts 10 minutes. At that rate, you'll run out of breakfree insps in about 2-4 minutes, and that's assuming you manage to use phaseshift, and then sit in phase shift for the entire 30 second duration to stall for time, and assuming you somehow manage to click phase when there aren't a bunch of holds stacked on you (or you'd have to pop more breakfrees in phase anyway). While this is all happening you're still taking damage.

It looks something like this. Note that the video is really short, because the uploader's oponent (an experienced player himself) runs out of breakfrees in about 2 minutes and 30 seconds.

In the case of a controller, it'd take about twice as long to run out of breakfrees, but consider also that controllers have debuffs, and generally some form of self heal which will allow them to easily survive for that duration.

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I’m aware of how it works.

I’m aware of how it works. Players are still chugging and being extremely reliant on these items. Your loss shouldn’t be based on “because I ran out of break frees”. Controller Holds are too powerful without the use of Break Free? Now that’s another discussion we can start about Crowd-Control.

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

I’m aware of how it works. Players are still chugging and being extremely reliant on these items. Your loss shouldn’t be based on “because I ran out of break frees”. Controller Holds are too powerful without the use of Break Free? Now that’s another discussion we can start about Crowd-Control.

Post i13 no one even used break frees, so how exactly are people being too reliant on these items? Pre i13 people used them and it worked, however like silit pointed out, the use of break frees did NOT nullify your opponent or give you some sort of unfair advantage.

Why are you still ranting about this? This is a new game, most likely being developed with an even more PvE centred core that will make a thousand and one things in its PvP broken, OP or useless. You have bigger fish to fry then omg break frees if you really care about this new game.

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Quote:
Quote:

This is a new game, most likely being developed with an even more PvE centred core that will make a thousand and one things in its PvP broken, OP or useless.

Exactly.

Which brings us back to my above statement: "If we don't discuss what we would like (and wouldnt like) to see in the PvP aspect of the game - how are the developers supposed to know what we are looking for? The outcome is clearly what we deserve for not speaking up earlier. "

Even if it is a PvE game, that doesn't mean we shouldn't make an effort to better the PvP aspect.

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New user here, but I just

New user here, but I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in on general PvP issues I've experienced. Played CoX, didn't do a whole lot of PvP there, but I've PvPed a wide variety of MMOs.

First, (those who love playing support roles may cringe at this) taking control of a character away from the player sitting at the keyboard is, literally, the worst thing you can do as a game developer. Nobody loads a game up, makes a character, spends hours building that character, then wants to watch the character stand there idly snoring while other players proceed to dominate him. It just makes the player feel as if he's helpless, unable to avoid defeat. That's the last thing you want a player to feel in a competitive arena. It's the quickest way to get those players to quit playing. Instead of having CCs, simply have debuffs. No control is lost on the player's part, though he may still be rendered essentially ineffective in his role until those debuffs wear off or he counters them in some way. If CC powers are included because of PvE, I'd say replace the CC with aforementioned debuffs when the player uses them on another player. To me, a slow is the only acceptable form of CC. However, I honestly feel like a self-buff is a much better route. Buff your/your team's own move speed to help your close-range brawlers instead of debuffing your opponents. At the very least, that quickens the pace of the game (generally a good thing so long as it's within reason) while preventing the other players to feel as if anything has been taken away from their own characters.

Second, I've never seen an instance in which gear, whether PvE or PvP awarded, was healthy for a multiplayer game. Anything that tips the playing field in one player's favor before he even steps onto said field is another huge turnoff. At best, it's a curious little system that really adds nothing of value to the experience that couldn't have been added in another, more universally enjoyable way. The only accumulated advantage that should be acceptable in a PvP arena is also an unavoidable advantage: skill and/or experience. Like another poster already said in this thread: PvPers generally don't need the carrot on a stick to continue PvPing. They do it to build skill and experience, and those things are their own reward. If there has to be a tangible reward to PvPing, it should not be something player-specific. The availability of a new zone (ala Darkness Falls wayyyy back when in DAoC), control of an existing zone that opens up new content, or simply a glorious "look how awesome I am" aesthetic addition created in the player/clan's name will suffice.

These two points seem obvious to me, but developers continuously strive to provide ways to include things in their PvP that simply aren't needed. Stop taking control away from the players. PvP will become MUCH easier to balance and tweak if you just remove that system entirely. It simplifies your game and simultaneously alleviates an entire level of frustration within the playerbase. Also, do away with the treadmill in PvP. Keep that where it belongs: PvE.

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You are wrong on point 2. See

You are wrong on point 2. See GW2 pvp board before they gave players a reward system for PvP. I, and many many others would simply never PvP in a game without reward (as I didn't in CoH).

Mahaf
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ZigZag wrote:
ZigZag wrote:

You are wrong on point 2. See GW2 pvp board before they gave players a reward system for PvP. I, and many many others would simply never PvP in a game without reward (as I didn't in CoH).

If I'm not mistaken, GW2 rewards aren't gear that gives a player a statistical advantage, is it?

In my opinion, If they must provide the carrot on the stick, it should come in the form of something added to do, see, or experience because you and your faction were triumphant in recent PvP endeavors. Not a piece of shiny that you put on and all of a sudden you're stronger than the next guy, isolated from your skill/experience.

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

I understand it was a counter to Crowd-Control. But was it really the best way of a counter? With its implementation – it almost rendered Crowd-Control obsolete. As Psycho Jas said, it reduced fights to damage spam

Not really any seasoned troller or dom knows how to manage opponents bfs. There is 20 slots you can have bfs in, each giving a mag 8 protection. That means a troller will need to stack 2-3 holds (2 if the holds are crit) or 1-3 dom holds (1 being dominated) A Person may panic any try to burn out using all of their bfs. More than likey if you manage your bfs you will end up loosing the 10 minute match within the first 2 minutes.. Doms/trollers would have (pre i13) used soft control like -acc, -rech, -end recover etc in order to allow them to burn though the bfs then kill them. That's why trollers and doms where so dominant in pvp (Mind/Fire pre and post 13 where devastating) Ice/Rad troller just stuck to play aginst, but was fun as hell to play, Ele/Psi dom post i13 with end drain where amazing, etc. BFs are not a I win because your powers are useless ability. If a troller/dom dueler knows the game mechanics, Bfs are just a temporary annoyancev even in zones.

In the great scheme of things there are FoTMs builds, but FoTM builds can counter other FoTM builds. Example, Mind/Fire is dominant, but a Ice/EM tank if played properly can wreck that build. There is no all in one builds in team fight because if that was the case, you will see everyone in a 8v8 with the exact same build. 8v8 dose promote team play with 5 buffers (2 emps, 2 sonic, 1 kin) 3 primary dmg dealers (Blasters.) To my knowledge there is no one super build (though Mind/Fire doms did come close)

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Mahaf wrote:
Mahaf wrote:

ZigZag wrote:
You are wrong on point 2. See GW2 pvp board before they gave players a reward system for PvP. I, and many many others would simply never PvP in a game without reward (as I didn't in CoH).

If I'm not mistaken, GW2 rewards aren't gear that gives a player a statistical advantage, is it?
In my opinion, If they must provide the carrot on the stick, it should come in the form of something added to do, see, or experience because you and your faction were triumphant in recent PvP endeavors. Not a piece of shiny that you put on and all of a sudden you're stronger than the next guy, isolated from your skill/experience.

Actually yes. You can buy levels and get gold with the PvP currency which both give a statistical advantage in WvWvW....

Sure I think that pvp rewards should be separate from Pvp itself(rewards that give stuff for pve I mean), but just unlocking new pvp zones or something is not going to encourage people that pvp and pve to ever do pvp, which will severely limit the pvp population.

Id recommend system where everyone is set to a baseline power level for the actual PvP, and for a reward have a PvP currency where we can either purchase things specific to pvp(maps ect), or choose to spend it on special costume pieces or equipment for PvE ect.

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ZigZag wrote:
ZigZag wrote:

Id recommend system where everyone is set to a baseline power level for the actual PvP, and for a reward have a PvP currency where we can either purchase things specific to pvp(maps ect), or choose to spend it on special costume pieces or equipment for PvE ect.

This implies that there will be gated PvE content and I'm not sure the PvE players will appreciate that. Especially those, like myself, that want as little connection between PvE and PvP as possible.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

ZigZag wrote:
Id recommend system where everyone is set to a baseline power level for the actual PvP, and for a reward have a PvP currency where we can either purchase things specific to pvp(maps ect), or choose to spend it on special costume pieces or equipment for PvE ect.

This implies that there will be gated PvE content and I'm not sure the PvE players will appreciate that. Especially those, like myself, that want as little connection between PvE and PvP as possible.

It all depends on what the content would be... I can see *some* rewards being available both via PvE and PvP (ie costume pieces or something along those lines).

What this means is that the player could do the content that they like (PvE or PvP) and still get similar/same rewards. I am not saying that both sides will take the same amount of *time* to achieve that goal, but there is something that could be done.

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

ZigZag wrote:
Id recommend system where everyone is set to a baseline power level for the actual PvP, and for a reward have a PvP currency where we can either purchase things specific to pvp(maps ect), or choose to spend it on special costume pieces or equipment for PvE ect.

This implies that there will be gated PvE content and I'm not sure the PvE players will appreciate that. Especially those, like myself, that want as little connection between PvE and PvP as possible.

Im not 100% sure what you mean by gated.

If you mean that its level restricted no I dont mean that.

What im saying is that at level one you get leveled to max while in PvP areas. Also if equipment exists you will be able to apply your choice for no cost. PvP would be all about player skill, but my winnings could be spent on things that translate into PvE ie new costumes xp, gold ect ect.

dawnofcrow
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make Gear weapons both pve

make Gear weapons both pve pvp if players want do pvp got gear need for or gear and weapons level up slow get stats for pve and pvp now my go back play dark souls 2 before Shapeshift in to care bears

whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich

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I feel like there are two

I feel like there are two good ways to try and reduce the gating effect; first, have PvP grouped by level bands, so you don't have to play against people with much higher level than you who have more powers available. This will only work if you have a sufficient PvP population to get matches to spawn despite bucketing like this, but lets you start PvPing from near the start without serious issues. Second, rather than making separate PvP gear, make it so you can get the same level gear from PvP as you do from PvE, perhaps by giving some sort of currency for winning or participating in PvP matches that can be used to buy the same gear you can get from PvE content. If someone plays for 100 hours in PvE content and another player runs 100 hours of PvP matches, ideally they should both end up at approximately the same level with approximately the same amount of gear (in practice, it is impossible to perfectly balance things like this, but you can get kind of close). That also helps ameliorate the issues when a PvE player tries PvP, because their PvE gear will still work.

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Ah...I stand corrected. I don

Ah...I stand corrected. I don't mind the idea of the level bump. ESO has everyone bumped to 50 and it seems to work pretty well. I also wouldn't mind stuff earned in PvP being able to purchase PvE stuff. My worry was that stuff for PvE was ONLY available through PvP. I misunderstood.

And just to clarify: I'm not opposed to some stuff that was ONLY available through PvP play as an extra reward for those players as long as there was something similar in PvE.

Example: When you finished the ITF you unlocked the Roman costume pieces for your account. Many of those pieces were unique and had nothing even remotely like them in the normal CC. You HAD to do the ITF to get them. Now if they'd had something for the Romanesque players and the ITF unlocked the really snazzy version I'd be ok with that because I can still make my RomanRobot and have him look halfway decent for 34 levels until the ITF unlocks.

Wings were a lot like that at first. You had to grind forever or pay through the nose for the recipe. This left new players that felt that wings were important to their concept out in the cold. I strongly feel that there should be some of everything available in the basic CC. Adding special, locked or limited stuff that takes it up a notch is fine...gives us something to strive for.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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This - to me is dead on.

This - to me is dead on. Comicsluvr - you nailed it on the head.

I used to do arena when it first came out and later on - from time to time, and that was moderately enjoyable.

I did a few PVP zones just to get badges really. Whenever I was in PVP I usually encountered 2-3 people that were stereotypical jerks without fail. We're talking the stereotype that people think of when it comes to PvP gamers that either gank in teams waiting for you to barely walk into the zone 3-5 against 1. In other cases I beat a guy once, he followed me around the zone broadcasting my location to everyone as I tried to sneak my way through on badge mission. In another case, several times actually - I encountered the sophomore behavior of everything from constant foul language (and I'm not a prude but when every other word is a four letter one... it's no longer even funny, its just pathetic), to teabagings, to pointless personal verbal attacks via chat long after I was no longer anywhere near them.

As a result if I didn't have to go to a PvP zone - I never did. Ironically - when I did face off against people I generally did pretty well on a 1 on 1 or even 2 on 1 I at least held up respectably. But it was never fun. It was more about just getting through what should have been a fun time.

Instead it was barrages of insults, foul language with no purpose as if from a 12 year old, and or mass attacks with no hope of any outcome other than death.

In short... why would I want to PvP? As a rule most PvP people are great and not like that. But the fact is, theres a much greater jerk population in PvP than in rest of the game. Maybe it's the need to trash talk while PvP or something. I dunno. I do know my experience with PvP is that it's less about Player vs. Player and more about groups attempting to mob up on smaller groups and individuals.

You can say my experiences are not the same as others all you like - but they're still the impression I've been given, and they were given to me by the PvP community.

As Comicsluvr said, you want people to PvP. Make it fun. What I, and a lot of other people experience was not fun.

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Being in the Test PvP league,

Being in the Test PvP league, I noticed something interesting with PvP. While on the home servers, PvPers will go out of their way to hunt down badgers and when people say "stop I am here just for the badges" will usually put them on a KoS. Is it for greifing purposes? That may be part of it (I'm just being honest), but the major part was on the home server there may have been little PvP and they wanted to kill other than npcs and the whole notion that those badges and rewards are in pvp zone for a reason, and you better make them earn them. Usually the crap talks where we are perceived as jerks is when we are called assholes for killing people in a pvp zone (like it was wrong to play the game zone mechanics as intended) On the test server the attitude changes completely and for the most part, people tend to be respectful within the league. It's because the PvPers in the league actually care about the opinions of their peers. It's can't be helped, if you complain about going in to a pvp zone and say you are just there for PvE, you are just making yourself a target.

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mikenovember wrote:
mikenovember wrote:

In short... why would I want to PvP? As a rule most PvP people are great and not like that. But the fact is, theres a much greater jerk population in PvP than in rest of the game. Maybe it's the need to trash talk while PvP or something. I dunno. I do know my experience with PvP is that it's less about Player vs. Player and more about groups attempting to mob up on smaller groups and individuals.
You can say my experiences are not the same as others all you like - but they're still the impression I've been given, and they were given to me by the PvP community.
As Comicsluvr said, you want people to PvP. Make it fun. What I, and a lot of other people experience was not fun.

Of course this is anecdotal....my personal experience in PvP tended to be much more friendly. Both Zone and Arena.
There were many problems with zone PvP that tended to foster this kind of attitude. Not the least of which is the fact the zones held PVE rewards. That was a bad idea. I said in another thread that I feel there should be a complete separation between PvP and PvE in terms of rewards, including experience.

Basically my opinion on how to treat PvP is treat Zone PvP and Arena PvP different.

Zone PvP-To advance you earn xp and gear much as you would in PvE. It doesn't matter if you are level 50 or 1 your first time in a PvP zone you are a gearless level 1 PvP'r. The reverse is also true, If you spent all your time in a PvP zone then your gear and xp is useless in PvE.
As a level 1 PvP'r you are restricted to the starter PvP'r zone. As you gain levels in PvP you can either advance to the next PvP zone or stay in this one, but you won't be able to use powers or gear beyond the zone limits. I would say you can still gain xp (this may cause PvP leveling exploits) but it would be up to the devs how to deal with that issue.
This gives the hardcore PvP'r a home. A way to advance without having to waste time in PvE and gear that was made with PvP in mind. It also gives a way for a new PvP'r to enter PvP without the traditional culture shock you usually get (to an extent at least). The new PvP'r can be eased into the system without having to deal with other players who have a distinct advantage in gear, level or power selection. It does have the major drawback where someone who is level 50 can't use that same character at the same power level in PvP and so may not bother with it at all. Thats where splitting PvP zone and Arena comes in.

Arena PvP- To go with the PvP zone separation there should obviously be a way for people who want to PvP with their favorite character without having to level and gear up all over. In my idea arena combat will have many optional flags. A flag for PvE only gear/level, a flag for PvP only gear/level and a flags for any variation (IE PvE level and PvP gear). Flags for earning PvP xp and gear and flags for not earning them (again this can lead to exploits the devs would have to consider). This allows those who like to dabble in PvP to set up a match where they can use their PvE character and decide right there what they consider fair in terms of balancing the match.

There is also the added benefit of alting (which the devs have said to be a goal for them). While each character could have both a pvp build and a pve build, most PvP'rs will tend to create a specific character with specific powers for PvP....so alting.

My idea tends to not be popular though.

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Mahaf wrote:
Mahaf wrote:

... Nobody loads a game up, ..., then wants to watch the character stand there idly snoring while other players proceed to dominate him. It just makes the player feel as if he's helpless, unable to avoid defeat. That's the last thing you want a player to feel in a competitive arena. It's the quickest way to get those players to quit playing.

+1..
..and i'll raise you an old post i made Here.

What about this thread? (scroll down a few)

Hmm.. i seem to have forgotten in which thread i made a PvP suggestion for Counter Attacks in PvP... Risk / Reward thing. n/m i'll find it, or rewrite later.

LOL, and when i first glanced at the thread title...I thought the OP was asking "what Turned us On" in PvP. Can i go with Whips.. And a Cat Outfit? ;)

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Squints wrote:
Squints wrote:

Being in the Test PvP league, I noticed something interesting with PvP. While on the home servers, PvPers will go out of their way to hunt down badgers and when people say "stop I am here just for the badges" will usually put them on a KoS. Is it for greifing purposes? That may be part of it (I'm just being honest), but the major part was on the home server there may have been little PvP and they wanted to kill other than npcs and the whole notion that those badges and rewards are in pvp zone for a reason, and you better make them earn them. Usually the crap talks where we are perceived as jerks is when we are called assholes for killing people in a pvp zone (like it was wrong to play the game zone mechanics as intended) On the test server the attitude changes completely and for the most part, people tend to be respectful within the league. It's because the PvPers in the league actually care about the opinions of their peers. It's can't be helped, if you complain about going in to a pvp zone and say you are just there for PvE, you are just making yourself a target.

OK...what's a KoS?

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

OK...what's a KoS?

Kill on Sight list.

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I'm turned away from PvP by

I'm turned away from PvP by people that want to 'dominate' me. Especially when they're jerks about it.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I'm turned away from PvP by people that want to 'dominate' me. Especially when they're jerks about it.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Umm.. dont make it sound like you're in a PvP Prison. o.O

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I didn't read everything that

I didn't read everything that has been posted here, to tired : \. However, I would like to throw in my two cents. Personally what turns me off is when it's all super separated.

I think most MMOs that want to have some sort of PvP should take a couple pointers from other games and make them suite CoT. Here how I would like to see it.

No PvP only gear/items/enhancements:
What you get in PvE can be used in PvP. If any item is gained from PvP it should be able to be used in PvE but PvP should not be a way to get gear faster than PvE, or vica versa. It's hard to balance this one, but I think it can be done to where it's close.

Rewards:
Some costume pieces, small buffs that can be taken into PvE, ect. Maybe some of the rewards can be tied to a PvP Level system where you can end up earning some higher end rewards similar to how DAoC had Realm Ranks but not as big of a game changer.

Balance:
I liked the idea the CoX had with your powers having a PvE and a PvP side. That way you can still have the same powers for both but they can be balanced for PvE without it affecting PvP and vica versa.

Level Tiers:
Personally i think it's hard to balance this out sometimes. If its where only these lvls can fight these lvls and you don't have enough people to PvP with, you can't PvP. If it scales up, the low lvl person will probably be out geared, and will always have less skills than the higher lvls. If the higher lvls are scaled down they probably wont want to go to that area because they'll want to use the skills they've earned.

I'm running out of juice and I'm still not feeling well so I think it's time for me to lay down. Guess I'm gonna cut myself short : \. Oh well, have fun everyone and i'll cya all later.

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In my experience, City of

In my experience, City of Heroes initially had one of the the best PvP community experiences I've ever had in a PvP game. The reason was the community. I spent quit a bit of time in the PvP zones and PvPed with my group and guild members. Unlike FPS and other PvP MMOs, it wasn't shoot first, tea-bag later. It was a combination of hanging out and dueling. I died a lot and I won occasionally. We knew who the great PvPers were and we knew how much time they spent building their build to perfection. We experimented constantly and passed that information down to others freely. If we found a new power combination, build, or IO interaction we shared that with the others. If we were killed by the l337 players there was no outrage or WTF, we knew they were awesome and we enjoyed trying to take them down. Which we occasionally did. The joys of PvP don't come from the developers making a fair playing field, because there is no such thing. They should strive for balance, yes, but not at the sake of someone's fun. PvP is a skill, it has to be learned, and it has to be honed, great PvP teams don't just happen. They are friends who hang out and practice all the time to take down the most difficult challenge in video games, skilled player who are able to adapt and change to your techniques, forcing you to adapt and change as well or die in the process.

After you die, you brush yourself off after face-planting, You change up your tactics. You create new character builds, and you practice to perfection. And then you and your friends hunt down that other team and give them hell. And don't worry they will be back, but you had better be ready!

"If people say it can't be done, then you're on the right path."

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I pretty much played PVE 99

I pretty much played PVE 99.999% of the time. I guess if there was a combat rating for toons in PVP that showed that you were at least in an opponents weight class I might consider it.

(Thanks for the catch Izzy).

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Dinma wrote:
Dinma wrote:

... I guess if there was a combat rating for toons in PVE that showed that you were at least in an opponents weight class I might consider it.

PvE or PvP? :)

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PvP is a test of your brains,

PvP is a test of your brains, resilience and might of your character and as a player. Like everyone else here, I'd have my fights once in a while against something absurd like 5 cold/cold dominators, and couldn't move worth a damn--which sucked. So I'd leave, and come back later, or even try to get a group of friends/random people and attempt to take the bastards out.

Separating any kind of stats or abilities or levels between PvP and PvE doesn't make sense to me. Fair is fair, and if your toon isn't tough enough, then you better get them tough enough to stand up to heroes/villains who could beat you down. I mean, that's how the comics are--go up against a character stronger than you, you go down. PvP is something you should train for or make a specific build for--why should anyone get a leg up because they don't PvP or are new to it? I say everyone should earn the skill to PvP. I think there are other ways to fill PvP zones up rather than giving them handycaps. Not sure what though.

I used to hate PvP. I thought it was pointless and annoying, but something changed. I realized it was like chess, and it offered a completely different challenge than PvE. Rather than grinding levels and get awards, it was simply the accomplishment of winning--it was a different game within the game.

Features I'm for:
Awarded temp powers/buffs that can also be used in PvE
Bonus Influence/Infamy from bounty/revenge/justice
PvP Ratings/Class
Badges
Achievements
Accolades
PvP earned costume pieces
Games (e.g.: capture the flag)
Instance Missions
Special Events

As an off note, one of my coolest experience in PvP was a tournament between players. We'd go on top of cranes, or some crazy setting high in the sky w/ platforms, and battle it out til one came out on top, and they'd win a huge pot of influence everyone chipped in on. Was all player decided. So cool.

5 OClock Shadow
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yeah this type of stuff I

yeah this type of stuff I started to run into more and more. And I love to pvp. Early on it used to be pretty dang fun, with crowd that just wanted to have fun and battle, then later, not sure what happened but seem like the assholes and the type of stuff you described above took over And I'm not talking about on Freedom Server. And not that I lost or won anymore or less as that isnt tied to my fun much, just a good battle. In fact I lost more often early on when people acted like they had some sort of sense and respected the game rules than later when I actually won more often but it's like the foul language rule that is looked at and every so often a GM pops in in PVE side and warned cursing offender to cool it. But in PVP zone it like rules of that nature was never written. And other behaviors kind of dulled the enjoyment of pvp.

If in the new game pvp is like the good old days, it will be enjoyable again, but if it's like the older days in the double digit issues t after i13, then I simply wont even bother partaking as if they make that decision to make it a toxic zone again, then it must be "fun" for someone. But next time I will have not a slightest bit of mercy when people start complaining about it being empty again and the devs not putting resources towards PVP because not enough people play. First time in COX, ok that was some people first MMO and PVP stuff. The second time, they know good and well the effects a toxic crowd can do so if they ruin it again, that is on them. And next time I will make sure I remind them of their actions at every single turn relentlessly.

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I'd have to agree with what

I'd have to agree with what Lothic has said. I was never dead set against PVP, but I didn't enjoy it. By my nature I simply don't gravitate away from competitive play and toward things of a more cooperative nature. The only times I would venture into the PVP zones was to secure nukes or Shivans to be used for something of a group nature. If someone engaged me in PVP, I'd fight back a bit in hopes that they'd be deterred either by losing or the ease of winning (the latter far more than the former) and I could resume what I was doing. Basically, they led this horse to water and made him drink, but he didn't enjoy what they had to serve.

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Easy question. I dislike PVP

Easy question. I dislike PVP because I hate when my character dies. I consider a death a failure, and in PVP you die like every 3 seconds or so. Most people who PVP can play other games and run the same mission 25 times til they get it right. I hate that. It's just a different mindset.

Yeah, that sounds like a Jedi. Massacre a whole room full of people, then stand around apologizing for it. - Swtor NPC

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Having my mechanics change

Having my mechanics change (or be irrelevant) for PvP turns me away.

As a tank to have my threat mechanic (targeting) turned into a debuff sucks.

As a controller to have my crowd control not work in PvP and turned into something like "team battery" or "healer" sucks.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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What turns me away from PvP?

What turns me away from PvP? The other players. Smack-talk, the general douche-baggery, the egos, and people just being plain jerks turn me away from it. Unfortunately, that isn't something you as game designers can really control. :)

Honestly, I'm more of a PvE player and really enjoy story content and will happily run through arcs many many many times - especially if it's a good story. BUT, I don't mind PvP'ing occasionally as well when my teammates want to do so.

So for game functionality that turns me away from PvP....

1. Inequality - It's a necessary evil. Someone has to win and someone has to lose. If everyone - no matter the class, powers, armor, and etc - were equal, then it would be boring. So someone has to be weaker than others. But always being weaker sucks, too. Also, there always seems to be one or two classes/powersets that will always win against others no matter what and you'll find all the diehard PvP'ers playing them and for any casual PvP'ers (or anyone else) that just want to play their characters no matter the class/powerset... it's no fun when you can't even compete and you always faceplant within seconds.

Every hero has their weak point and fail at something (traditional superhero lore). So if there are 5 different classes... I would like to see something like: Class #1 is equally matched against Classes #1 (my own class), #2, and #3 (so outcomes could go either way); then is stronger against Class #4 (but still a chance that #4 could win, but they most likely will need help - typical comicbook/hero fashion); and then they are weaker against Class #5 and may have to call for help to defeat this particular class. That way, when anyone enters a PvP zone, they know they will be relatively evenly matched against 3 class types, stronger against 1, and weaker against the last. Just a thought.

2. Gear - Having to have a whole different set of "PvP" rated armor/gear just to function in PvP is horrible and instantly turns away me and other casual PvP'ers. Diehard PvP'ers will do anything and everything to munchkin out their characters to get every advantage possible. That's fine. And I think there should be a some special PvP items that can give a boost, if you work to get them. But they shouldn't give SUCH a huge advantage that those without instantly die. (I don't mind dying in PvP... I just want a good fight. Faceplanting within a few seconds is no fun.) But back to the main point... I don't want to have to have a separate set of gear/mods/etc for PvE and for PvP - so that if I go into PvP without my PvP gear on, I instantly die. I don't mind doing a few tweaks to a build that would lean it towards PvP, but I don't want to spend time on a whole separate build or to get a ton of PvP gear just so I can casually PvP.

3. PvP just for the sake of PvP - not a fan of large open areas with nothing to do other than fight one another. I'd prefer objectives to accomplish (can be done solo or with team) with the threat of PvP. I do think there should be an "arena" type PvP area where folks can square off in duals or team matches if they want to. I also enjoy being on a team and doing supergroup base raids with other teams (which also has alternate objectives other than just solely PvP'ing).

4. PvE content that requires PvP'ing - CANNOT stand this!! I will quit a game if I am forced to do ANYTHING PvP related just to get forward in story, past a particular object/objective, or to get some special piece of gear. Everything PvE should be separate and independent of PvP and vice versa.

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Attitude from other players

Attitude from other players is a turn off for me too- I saw too many people in CoH who acted that way in PVP zones. I get enough of that in real life, thanks.
And I HATE anything that makes me take part in PVP when I don't want to. A certain "epic" quest chain in another MMO makes you not just participate in, but WIN two different PVP battlegrounds to advance the quest chain, and I hate it! Especially since PVP gear in that game is different than what is any good for PVE, so if you don't PVP already and have the gear, you're pretty well screwed. Seriously, DO NOT make quest or mission chains like this. It sucks for the non-PVPers, being forced into something they don't like, and are pretty much guaranteed to fail at. It also sucks for the PVPers, having all these newbies showing up in their matches and getting in the way because they're not built/geared for it, and don't know what to do.

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Gauntlet wrote:
Gauntlet wrote:

Easy question. I dislike PVP because I hate when my character dies. I consider a death a failure, and in PVP you die like every 3 seconds or so. Most people who PVP can play other games and run the same mission 25 times til they get it right. I hate that. It's just a different mindset.

Yep, the first rule of PvP is that you're going to die...a lot. It takes awhile to get the hang of it. So dieing is just part of the learning curve. Believe me, I ate the dust in every PvP zone and tell the difference between the zingy zest of Bloody Bay and the metallic zing of Warburg. But after awhile you don't die as often and you now have some PvP skills and have earned your chops.

As to the smack talk and tea bagging...yeah that happens too. Some PvPers believe that if they can get you riled that they will take you off your game, psychological warfare. I just put them on ignore and kill them. *shrugs* No worries.

Also, the Devs have said there will be no forced PvP--ever--so that should make everyone feel better.

"If people say it can't be done, then you're on the right path."

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Lord Nightmare
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MM.. Psychological Warfare...

MM.. Psychological Warfare... But Tiger, that's a simple way of it. I prefer the more tasty versions like leaving your defensives and heals untouched until they JUST about kill you.. then popping each one at a time and laughing maniacally as you see the opponent freaking out because they can't kill you. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain

Sand_Trout
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Quote:
Quote:

The typical MMO has the requirement “PvE in order to PvP”. My proposal is, to have two separate reward systems between PvE and PvP. Rewards obtained under one system will have no effect in the other; some things (such as leveling experience) may be excluded from this rule. This should help lower the standard of entry to PvP.

I honestly try not to be too overly negative, but absolutely NO! to this idea of separate PvP and PvE loot. I've seen it in action, and its a horrid mechanic that is extremely destructive.

I saw this in SW:ToR and though ripped it off of WoW, it remains a terrible idea that actually creates a much more severe barrier of entry into PvP, while requiring players to do a double-grind on the item-power treadmill if they're willing to enter regardless of this barrier. This is because as time progresses, PvPers will accrue the top-end PvP gear. Newbies already lack a veteran's experience with PvP, and this would place them in a hard power disadvantage compared to veterans, and no means to bridge the mathematical power-gap except to loose repeatedly to the veterans. This is brutally discouraging to anyone who might be interested in PvP. Do you actually want to kill PvP in this game? Because this is how you kill PvP in a game.

If we are going to have PvP affected significantly by gear, by all means, allow PvPers to get gear through PvP. However, the gear available through PvP must be mechanically identical to the gear available through PvE, and both should transfer to the other. I have never seen a valid argument for giving PvPers gear that is only good for PvP, when giving them identical rewards as is attainable through PvE content would be easier to design.\

If someone wants to just PvP, by all means, let them achieve full actualization of their character's potential within PvP. If someone wants to just PvE, by all means, let them achieve full actualization of their character's potential within PvE. Do not tell someone that they may not use what they've earned in PvP in PvE, if they so choose, or vise versa.

Sic Semper Tyrannis

masterghostartist
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pvp?

pvp?

does playing versus another in a ingame minigame count?

special arena duels?

open world pvp?

special zone pvp?

avatar travel power races?

1. some people just want to steamroll a computer. they want to feel "big" and play a superhero mmo to do so.
2. some people hate competition. i don't understand them either.
3. some people have been ganked by trolls in older games, and mentally never recovered.

sometimes it's not pvp, or you and me. sometimes it's nothing you can fix.

don't forget to have fun.

What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau

Tiger
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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

MM.. Psychological Warfare... But Tiger, that's a simple way of it. I prefer the more tasty versions like leaving your defensives and heals untouched until they JUST about kill you.. then popping each one at a time and laughing maniacally as you see the opponent freaking out because they can't kill you. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Since my main was a Claws/SR Scrapper I didn't have the burst damage or soft controls to take many people out...but it was hard to take me down because my defenses were over cap and I had a 98% debuff resistance. Ice Corrupters hated me.

Bad Guy, "Stand still and let me kill you!"
Me, "Nope, you have to catch me."
Bad Guy, "Damn it, Tiger!"

Stalkers chasing me often ended up "Droning" themselves. Tiger, was fun in Zone PvP, in the arena I sucked. In Beta I learned the fun of Force Field, and Poison Masterminds. I love the Villain AT's for PvP! :)

"If people say it can't be done, then you're on the right path."

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Tiger
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If CoT will be like CoH, and

If CoT will be like CoH, and if you would like to have a more pleasant PvP experience, here are a few things that I learned in CoH. (^_^)

1) Have your defenses as near to the soft cap (45%) as possible.
2) Because most players will have a high defense try to have your accuracy at 200 or higher.
3) Burst damage is always best.
4) If you don't have high burst damage then find a way to immobilize or slow your targets so you can grind them down.
5) Repel is good
6) Have a resistance to repel.
7) Have Teleport Enemy.
8) Have protection from Teleport Enemy.
9) Knock down is good, (especially FF- Force Bolt, Psi-TK Thrust.)
10) Have Knockdown protection of 17 or more.
11) Holds are good.
12) Have protection from status effects, and carry Breakfrees even if you have protection.
13) If you don't have a heal take the Medical pool.
14) Have a DOT attack to stop opponents from using the Medical pool powers.
15) Have debuffs.
16) Have debuff protection.
17) When you enter the Zone hit phase shift, and stealth, then go to where you want. Never just walk out into the zone blind.
18) When in doubt hit phase shift, it is better to buy another Temp Power: Phase Shift than to face plant.
18) Never stand still...unless your standing on a stack of landmines.
19) Use caution when attacking some one who is standing still; they are probably standing on a stack of landmines.
20) Put caltrops in the bottom of a pool/fountain so the enemy can't jump away.
21) Never jump into a pool or fountain after a target.
22) Remember, damage is King, if you don't do a lot of damage stand next to the person who does and protect your King.

"If people say it can't be done, then you're on the right path."

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Mind-Freeze
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I just use to go in zone to

I just use to go in zone to heal whoever needed it and just have fun didn't really care if I died a million times was always fun and I had a great time

kamikaze
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I hated pv p in sirens call

I hated pv p in sirens call with my scrapper, nothing was worse than getting ganked by a handful of stalkers toying with you./ so I rolled a sonic de vices blaster and ??eveled him to 30. Max perception and stealth then. I stalked the stalkers. They no longer thought it was fun, that was all the achievment I neeeded from pvp.

"Gotcha!"

Neuronia
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Gear grind mostly. It was ok

Gear grind mostly. It was ok when it was just HOs and +3 SOs and so on, then came IOs and we had to grind batches of LOTG 7.5s, purples and all that stuff.
If City of Titans is going to have that level of loot necessity, let us access the training shard for some team stuff.

Levelling is whatever. It'll get done, the sideshow events (Accolades, IOs, badges) were the real time drain in City of, especially villainside before they fixed Born in Battle and you had to afk for 5 hours in Siren's Call...bleh.

masterghostartist
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pvp gear, yucky.

pvp gear, yucky.

pvp is where you go to test how good you and your design, and gear do. it makes "normal" gear useful only in pve. while pvp gear may be better, but only function in a pvp area. it may have been the goal to seperate the two playstyles, thinking that people who like one would not like another. and thus, would not get along. it is a game. you need everyone.

even a cold hearted pvper needs:
a market friend. the guy who can get anything, or sell anything.
various contacts in various guilds. the lone wolf is needed for a nasty boss takedown, chance at good loot.
the spy. who is where inzone? what guilds?
the forum lurker. what enhancements should i be holding if this or that gets nerfed?

i think people are just afraid of a better A.I. like those people who fear dolls. imagine what happens if one got up and started walking around. lol.

What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau