Join the ongoing conversation on Discord: https://discord.gg/w6Tpkp2
Please read the current update for instructions on downloading the latest update. Players with Mac versions of the game will not be affected, but you will have a slightly longer wait for your version of the new maps. Please make a copy of your character folder before running the new update, just to make sure you don't lose any of your custom work.
It looks like we can give everyone a list of minimum specs for running City of Titans. Please keep in mind that this is 'for now' until we are able to add more graphics and other system refinements. Currently you will need :
Windows 10 or later required; no Intel integrated graphics like UHD, must have AMD or NVIDIA card or discrete chipset with 4Gb or more of VRAM
At least 16GB of main DRAM.
These stats may change as we continue to test.
To purchase your copy of the City of Titans Launcher, visit our store at https://store.missingworldsmedia.com/ A purchase of $50 or more will give you a link to download the Launcher for Windows or Mac based machines.
I really hope the devs get this right .
when people cry about powers being too overpowered in pvp, please do not affect the way the pve play is affected.
there has to be a way to change powers in pvp that do not change the pve play.
I fully expect that powers will be subject to occasional tweaks in terms of power level, mechanics, etc whether it affects PVP or PVE or both.
Here's a scenario:
1. They roll the game out, and there are some powers that seem bad and some that seem good by comparison.
2. After about of month of play by players, a few powers, or combinations of powers, turn out to be pretty noticeably above the curve for powerfulness, so they get used in droves. This draws some amount of attention from the devs.
3. After a while, the devs decide a power or two, or some combo, needs to be adjusted so as not to be so overpowered, so they do that.
4. People who took that power/combo freak out like "WHAT!?!?!? You can't do THAT!!!!!! That's how I win all my matches and beat all the missions in PVE."
5. Devs respond with "We're sorry, but you have to admit it was pretty lame how OP that power/combo was, we had to do SOMETHING, we owe it to the community."
6. Some people, who fail to accept the necessity of this and have a tendency to disregard the bigger picture in favor of their own narrow set of demands, rage quit over the disappointment of having their overpowered "I win" power/combo taken away from them. The rest of us go "They changed that power huh? Okay...." and go about the rest of our lives like it's not a big deal, because you know something, it's really NOT a big deal.
There's no way the devs are going to get every single power balanced and non-broken from the get-go, and even if they do they will need to rebalance things once in a while as new powers and sets come along in the future. It's not always a pleasant process, but I think it's a necessary and somewhat inevitable one and I take it in stride. After all, they're only trying to make the game as much fun as possible for everybody. If that means having to de-power one or two things so that the rest don't totally suck by comparison, I'm all for it.
So don't get too used to anything right away.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
++++1111
Actually, I'd be perfectly fine with PvE nerfing PvP. PvP players are supposed to be good at adapting - PvP players are, naturally, more able to adapt than NPCs - so adapt.
Be Well!
Fireheart
my feelings about nerfing is, yes i understand its gonna happen.
i just find most games will nerf powers, people complain in PVP about how this power hits to hard,or this stuns to much...., well then they do the nerf, and in PVE now u can't solo anymore or when teamed that fun power now does very little effect.
so i would like to see the devs not underpower in PVE if its PVPers complaining.
u shouldn't pvp if ur gonna by a poor sport learn to overcome the power and adapt .
I get what your saying. If one side (PvP or PVP) needs a nerf (or a buff, to be fair) to a power for balance but it is still balanced on the other side leave the balanced side alone. Of course, if a power is broken on both sides that's a different matter.
-----------------------------------------
I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
I never PVPed much, but I've heard some players also complain when powers work radically differently in PVP than in PVE. The argument being that it's two different powers, really, but with the same name. Of course, that's bound to happen though (the powers being different). Ultimately there's a big problem in games like this because PVP is one set of priorities and PVE is another.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I remember reading that, while PvP is not going to be the focus of the game, the devs will be designing with PvP in mind, and then adjusting the PvE side where necessary. If this is still the case I can see why - it may be a bit easier to adjust the set statistics of in-game mobs and behind-the-scenes mechanics as opposed to the myriad of potential power and player combinations.
Personally - I wasn't much of a PvPer in CoH - I occasionally stuck my head in every now and then - mostly for the badges. If CoT can improve on the PvP game - great - I might avail of it more often than I did in CoH - but the PvE game is likely still going to be my main focus as it was before and as long as that is relatively consistent I should be happy.
The problem is that different people have different motivation for playing games in the first place. Some play games like this to RP and get an escapist break from their boring real lives, some look at a game such as this as a puzzle to be solved by optimizing the system for maximum rewards, and some want to derive sense of accomplishment from defeating other real people in some kind of arena. So you have the "DnDers" the "Economists" and the "Gladiators" and they all want the game to be more like the prototype thing that they get enjoyment out of at the expense of the features that appeal to other people. And to be sure, many people fall into more than one category. The "Economists" is probably a good portion of the other 2 factions in addition to being it's own thing. I want to RP a little (without getting carried away) and to optimize a fair bit (without it becoming too much like work), I don't care for PVP because I derive no great thrill out of defeating other people or "dominating" in that sense. For some other people, proving you're the best and dominating the other players is the only really compelling reason to play any game.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
My design intent - and note that I am not as involved with the gameplay team as I once was, so I am no longer the authority on this I once was - was to develop PvP first and balance that, adn then balance PvE around that. The idea being that the AI-controlled enemies being balanced against player powers after player powers were already balanced for PvP would allow us to have the same set of powers for both. While enemies might be stronger or weaker than "normal" PCs, they would be designed with a baseline calibration around the level where PCs fighting each other were roughly on par.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I probably misunderstood where you coming from... but i have to ask anyways. :)
Q: You want to make the PvE enemy just as tough as fighting a real person?
A: If Yes, -1. :(
But, its probably No. So, that makes me wonder why PvP 1st? Yes, lets cater to the PvP that comprises 2% of the community, and are never happy (complain constantly). :<
Q: What demographic do you think City of Heroes / City of Villains was aimed at (or rather Got)? ;)
A: My guestimate: Kinda Young, and Sorta Old. (Kids and Parents) Not too much the In-Between's. ;)
For kids, Wholesome Heroes are not Corny. And for Parents, Heroes instill Good Values so they want enjoy learning that with their kids in the game.
Hey!!! Parents should let kids play City of Titans in Schools.. Elementary grades.. and MWM can make one or two Arcs with an After School special kinda theme. Hehehe. ;D And make those Arcs Free through the Scoolastic like magazines! ;D Kids get Hooked, like on tobacco, and when they get older, they will start Buying CoT stuff! >:D
Q: Will majority of the players appreciate the Super tough Enemy AI?
A: My guestimate: Allot Will Not*. -1.
im too tired..... etc...
So if PvE balance is just a spin-off of PvP balance, doesn't that mandate that any PvP balancing is going to affect PvE?
I believe Segev's point is that balancing PvP is by far the more difficult task. Once that is accomplished it is quite easy to tune NPCs to the performance of the various power sets (so that the NPCs are weaker than, comparable to, or stronger than the PCs).
I'm still stuck on the concept of 'balanced PvP'. How does one balance PvP in a game like CoT or, for a somewhat less theoretical approach, what would have constituted balanced PvP in CoH? I maintain that it is mad to attempt to achieve any sort of 1 vs 1 balance (except, [i]perhaps[/i], within classifications).
- - - - -
[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Preach!
This approach would Alsop quash most instances of "useless" powers. Sure, some strategies would be too subtle for action packed PvE environments but the could still be usable, particularly in PvP.
This seems like a question about AI. It seems ambitious to think the AI will reach the level of difficulty of a player character. Even blockbuster games haven't gotten there. But if you design and balance a game that makes the PvP engaging and challenging, it would simply be easier to make the PvE gameplay feel similar. That doesn't really work the other way around though...
I disagree with the assumption that all powers should be "useful" or that such a goal is even obtainable. If a full build can have, say, 25 powers in it, then whatever remains after you've chosen your 25th power is totally useless to you because you aren't using it. Also, there needs to be, in my opinion, some noticeable amount of variance between powers so that some are better than others. If this leads to some powers being "not quite good enough to make the cut" for many people's 25-power build, that's okay by me. The existence of less than stellar options is, in and of itself, not game-breaking. On the other hand it would be a far more boring game if all powers seemed the same by comparison. Also, let's not forget that some powers are WAY better when used in combination with others than they might be by themselves, or when used in "non-comboes" where the powers operate against each other instead of energizing.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
There's a difference between making most powers/options useful and having variances in how effective powers are in comparison.
One just means there's a purpose of picking every power beside just liking the visual of it or something. The other is a subject of balance as you shouldn't be able to pick all the most devastating attacks and absolute defense to become some sort of tank mage right out of the box.
Perhaps an example will help me illustrate what I actually mean.
Final Fantasy is famous for the huge numbers that fly off of enemies when the player-controlled party does damage to them. The player's characters have far fewer hp than that. Often, at the end of the game, a single attack could one-shot the character that makes it. Because player character hp is lower, monsters do significantly less damage.
This balances out because player characters attack things with lots more hit points, so their enormous damage scale takes reasonable "chunks" of the monster hp out at a time. Conversely, the monsters do a lot less damage, so they only take "reasonable" chunks out of the player's character's hp per hit. (This is, obviously, grossly simplified, but the basic principle is accurate.)
If FF were to suddenly become player party vs. player party, with no change in numbers, it would be what is affectionately known in D&D forums as "rocket tag." Whoever went first would win. This is not balanced PvP. It would require dramaticlaly changing how attacks work to make PvP balanced.
Something akin to this asymmetrical situation exists in most MMOs, such that when PvP is introduced it has to have dramatically different rules in order to be balanced.
By balancing for PvP first, then designing the enemies to be calibrated to be as difficult against that calculated level of PC power as we want those enemies to be, we avoid having to change the rules of the game when players switch from PvE to PvP.
I actually expect the A.I. to be surprisingly robust, but it likely still wo'nt measure up to human potential; because of that, I expect that PvE will be "easier" in a tactical sense, despite this balance calibration. Conversely, however, because of the fact that powers work the same regardless of whether you're fighting AIs or PCs, we can design AIs to use tactics that react to real PvP powers, rather than having to redesign powers for different combat "zones."
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Thank you for the additional info, Segev. For what it's worth, I like the idea of figuring out how PVP will work and the powers etc first, then making PVE badguys to retro-fit what you then have. For the reasons you gave, this sounds like the smart way to do it. I just wanted to point out a difference of opinion I have with Leo_G as pertains to "useless" powers.
My opinion is that the game is BETTER if some powers are basically a "trap" in the build sense. I feel it's OKAY to have some powers that, basically, you shouldn't take because they're underpowered as compared to some other ones you could take instead. What I mean is, there's nothing game-breakingly bad about having SOME "skippable" powers in sets/pools as far as I'm concerned. The existence of "bad" powers is practically guaranteed, because otherwise there'd be no "good" powers either. I'm also not against the idea of gating a REALLY good power behind a less-than-stellar power just to make people have to take the bad with the good. Sure, you can have "Awesome Power X" but you must unlock it by taking "Disappointingly Underpowered Attack Y" first, and that "bad" power either ends up going unused, or you use it in place of something BETTER you could be using, which is the price you pay for taking "Awesome Power X".
Words like "good" and "bad" only have meaning in the sense that they are a way to compare things to each other. The only way to completely eliminate "bad" powers is to make them as good as the "good" powers,a nd then if you do that all powers are now equal, which takes away the inherent reason for making different powers at all. If they're all equal, the differences between them are meaningless.
As far as "tankmages" go, I would think that eliminating "bad" powers only exacerbates the problem of the "tankmage". If you're a blasty type toon and your only +Def powers are "bad" ones, you won't be a very good tankmage. If you're a tanker and your best ranged damage options are "sub par" as compared to everyone else, you'll probably not be a very good tankmage. If we eliminate those "bad" versions of +Def powers and ranged damage powers, we eliminate the very thing preventing the tankmage from happening, as I see it.
The other thing I like about "less than good" options is that they make the build process fun and interesting, and different for every toon. In reality, I think in the early going, the powers/enhancements that are available ought to leave a lot of room for improvement, that improvement coming eventually on the wings of things like NEW enhancements, powers, etc that get rolled out after launch. This sort of thing leads people to try to figure out ways to make the most of "Disappointing Power Y". Do I leave it 1-slotted and ignore it? Do I put SOME slots in it so I can up my set bonuses in some areas? Is this the best current option in the metagame or was I better off without "Awesome X" and "Disappointing Y" in tandem? Etc.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I disagree with this sentiment - I want all the powers to be good - I want hard choices - I want to build for effect/concept. While I think powers that are SITUATIONAL in nature are cool - I think it is an utterly stupid idea to intentionally build "player traps" or crap powers just to make others more appealing.
I'm with Interdictor. Powers that shine or are only particularly useful in certain situations are a much better design goal than powers that are deliberately useless. The former allows players to play with and vary their builds while the latter creates the phenomenon/problem of needing the 'correct' build.
- - - - -
[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Every power that is designed is designed with a purpose. Now the problem is, is that not everybody can see that purpose. Min/Maxxers will look at powers to see how best all the numbers can mesh up to put out the most DPS, Defense, or Resistance. They have a tendency to overlook the Utility powers as those are frivolous and not worth the time. However, other players that have concept in mind will see the need for certain powers. Then you will come across the Utility player that will look for the best build that will utilize a character in such a way for maximum team gameplay, not necessarily the most damaging or most survivable but will help the team out in the best way possible by using their unique powers to help advance the team through the mission in the most proficient way possible. It's hard to define what is "good" or "bad". Just because one person doesn't see the value of it doesn't mean that someone else doesn't.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
There should never be a useless power in the list. Powers with situational use, however is another matter. I think Knockback is a good example of this. When trying to AOE down a bunch of enemies while grouped it is definitely not the power you should be tossing out there since you are slowing down the group by removing enemies from the mass damage. It is useful however if you need to position an enemy, get one away from a squishie, or are just soloing and like booting guys off of rooftops.
Every power should definitely have a purpose.
Okay, I agree that there shouldn't be powers that do LITERALLY nothing, that much I think we can all agree on. But if you look at any primary or secondary or tertiary power set, you KNOW you can't take ALL of the powers, and so does the designer. Some people might want one power but not another, etc. But I still think that looking at a primary set and saying "This power is on the list, but most people won't want it, because the alternatives are probably better, under most circumstances." should not prevent devs from ever putting that power on the list in the first place. If an entire primary/secondary SET is comparatively bad, that's a problem, if a single power in a set is comparatively bad, that's an option you don't like, but it does no harm as long as there are alternatives that you do like.
I mean, I don't think we need to look at each power in a set and say "This power needs to be about as desirable as each other power in this set" as a way of determining whether or not a power should be tweaked. Clearly "quick, moderate blast" should not be as good as "level 32 AoE nuke". I also think it's overreacting to scrutinize each power of a given rank against the others as in "Fire Shot is not as good as Ice Shot so Fire Shot needs to be tweaked up." That isn't necessarily true, you have to look at the whole set, not just do single power vs. single power comparisons. Fire Shot might be worse than Ice Shot but Fire Bomb is better than Ice Bomb, so there's a balance and one set plays differently from the other. Maybe most people tend to skip Fire Shot when they can for this reason, so what. That's fine. Fire Shot is thus a "bad" power because the vast majority of people concerned with min/maxing don't think it's worth taking, but its existence isn't creating a problem in and of itself. If you get too many such powers in a the same set, then your set might be "bad" which could be a problem, but on the other hand, that set might have FANTASTICALLY good powers in it too, and if you can build around the "bad" ones and only take the "good" ones, you're still fine.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising