in COH we would pop a green for some healing. Why not put cola machines around the city to dispense needed temp enhancements, like healing, accuracy and damage?
They could all be different flavors.
They could have a coke bottle image to click on in your inventory.
Nothing quite refreshes (heals) like AmeriKat Kola.
Anthem Orange is accuracy
Dr Tyche Strawberry is damage
The three basics players need, all in a 12 oz recyclable bottle.
and we could save the bottle caps too!
—
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
It's not a completely bad idea from a player convenience point of view but it does strain the "fourth wall" as far as game world believably goes. Let me put it this way: In a superhero-based world where there are "performance enhancing" items for sale in vending machines on every street corner the villains of that world would be constantly robbing those machines and every street-punk kid would be OD'ing on all of it.
It's probably better if things like "inspirations" are kept strictly abstract in terms of what their in-game physical form is. After all a stim-pak might heal a human but something like a piece of titanium plating might be what a robot needs to "heal" itself. If you start defining these things as specific physical items (like your idea of different flavors of super-soda) then you start conflicting with people's character concepts. When stuff like this is kept vague then the players themselves can effectively "pretend" these things are whatever they want them to be.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I like it. I've always wanted to go into Up N Away Burger and actually buy something to eat. If you can make it an advertizing thing, so much the better. Get paid.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I'm not against being able to buy things in stores in CoT. I just don't want the "standard green" inspiration pill to be defined as a cheeseburger or anything else specific.
Now if you could buy a cheeseburger as an inventory item that would when "used" provide the identical effect as say a small green inspiration then that's fine. At that point the player could CHOOSE to use cheeseburgers instead of (or in addition to) the standard abstract green pill.
I just don't want to have the game force me to only be able to use something specific like cheeseburgers as healing inspirations when I might decide to play a robot or energy being that can't eat cheeseburgers.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I have to agree with Lothic.
The standard one should be completely "neutral" in regards to how it operates and what it is. Though I wouldn't be against alternative ones in the form of food or medical items but it has to expand to include versions for each "ultra basic" type of being (mechanical, organic, energy), and probably several variants since even those classes has large enough variations that one wouldn't be able to represent them all.
So long as my cheeseburger comes with fries and an emote, I'm all in. Now I need to go cook up a hamburger.
On the subject of the "standard" insp, I think they mentioned that there will not be insps. Instead we get Momentum, which when it tapers off unused at the end of a fight drains away into Reserves, both of which are a more fluid sort of thing, like coolant in Mechwarrior or something.
That said, every food item available could be its own little temp power that buffs you in some small way. Maybe some of them boost your Regeneration or Recovery NOW and then hit you with a "come down" later where it nerfs you in some way, temporarily, like the Hasten power did when it wore off. You could have a thing where you go to the burger place, get a burger for some IGC, then they make you a burger. You click on the glowwie and get the "Burger" temp power, which you can use only once, and if you don't use it in like 5 min the burger get's "cold" and ceases to be effective. You could also have rules that food bonuses don't stack with each other, except in the case of "entrees" stacking once with "beverages" and "side dishes" such that you could get a stacked benefit from a Burger, fries, and a drink, but not two burgers or two drinks etc.
You could then set it up such that only super speedy people can get from the burger place to the taco place to the pizza place fast enough to get the best possible configuration of entree, side and drink.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
The inevitable crash after consuming too much Enriche Energy Drink?
Or maybe you have to go to the hospital to have that little extra mutation taken care of.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Again I wouldn't really have a problem with any kind of "food based buffs" in CoT. All I'm suggesting is if they are going to bother with something like that then they might as well come up with multiple cosmetic variations of the same kinds of buffs that could exist purely for roleplay purposes.
For example let's say the Devs decide to provide a generic temp buff that would give us a +10% DEF for 30 seconds. Sure that buff could come in the form of a "cheeseburger" but they ought to let that same exact buff come in several equivalent versions like in the form of a blue magic gem or some kind of super-serum formula. That way people could have the CHOICE to stock up on the kind of items that actually apply to them and their character concepts.
All of these variants would function identically game-wise and for those people who don't care about roleplay they could always be used interchangeably. The variants would simply be cosmetically different so that people who are (for instance) roleplaying robots don't have to worry about eating human food or using magic items. Basically if my character specifically wanted a "+10% DEF for 30 seconds" it would be kind of limiting if there was only one kind of thing in the game that could provide that.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Instead of having to gontheough the trouble of creating a massive list of consumables into soecific buffs - which can get messy in terms of providing all the cosmetic variants for every possible concept - the far simpler solution is to provide a method of filling Reserves which can then be set to the player's desired need before or during play.
While on the surface it may seem like "buying pizza" would give some form of buff - not all concepts would necessarily "eat pizza". And trying to create a consumable "food source" for every possible concept so that no one is left out of the "immersion" would be a tall order to accommodate.
Now, personally, I think it would be pretty neat to have a series of customizable animations to use when consuming a Reserve (over ridden by combat animations so as to not incur performance penalties). Even though this would come up against the immerson-customization-to-all-concept gap, leaving it up to the player as an option instad of enforced by game world interactions at least provides a sort of compromise.
This is particularly of importance because instead of having to map out where every single "buff station by concept" has to be placed throughout every portion of the game world to provide the parity for all concepts, we can save dev time by placing the more generic locations of purchase in key places. It also affords more dev time to develop animations which can be more easily added to the game over creating brand new assets for the game world for more variety of vendor locations.
This leaves the pizza place etc...more available for role-play and player to player interactions for possible inclusion over time as it is more of a low hanging fruit / QoL for role players to have new hang outs.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
This was the point I originally started with in response to this thread. Sometimes it's easier in RPGs like this to keep things simplistic and "abstract" so that they can apply equally to everyone regardless of character concept.
When you start making specific items do specific things (like this "nuka-cola" idea) the whole thing can mushroom into needing countless variants to cover all the possible cases fairly. This is actually why the original "Origin" concept in CoH essentially failed - there was really no way that five simple generic categories were ever enough to handle every single type of character concept.
Again these things boil down to either single abstracts that can handle all cases or huge numbers of minutiae that cover all the bases. I'm not against eventually having multiple various buff items of all sorts of shapes and sizes. But clearly that slippery slope would require a huge amount of effort on the Devs part and obviously that would not be a launch day priority.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Or you can just come up with concepts that will work for the vast majority of concepts.
Super cola...now with nanobot power.
Magic health bars....the banana ones boost natural immunities.
Alien Energy Drink...made from the natural Plutonian ice springs, its outta this world.
These don't have to replace traditional 'inspiration' boosts...they can be used in conjunction...which is what it seems the OP was intending. Treat them the same way you would treat a temp craftable boosts and it will offer another less intrusive IGC sink.
Seriously, CoH had all kinds of enhancements that were named fairly specifically....we suspended disbelief to accommodate that...why can't we do the same with this?
My robot doesn't use any form of fluids or intake valves through which nanobot power infused fluids may enter...
My ghostly shade doesn't consume any form of 'food'...
My alien doesn't even have any form of cash with which to expend on purchasing from a human's chemically engineered product that poorly attempts to appeal to all alien life forms...
All joking aside, we've endeavored to avoid this issue as much as possible in many aspects of our design, including the interpretation of any attempt at limiting or appealing to a sense of the player character's origin of ability.
Which is why I stated that it would still be far easier to have such things set up as animations which the player can customize, this goes for how a player crafts items too, the more customization that is possible, the more options the player has to immerse themselves the way they desire and less they are forced into the 'one way' its done within the game. Yes this will take time to provide a huge variety of customization, but it would be easier to do than attempt to infuse all possible concepts through the game world itself while at the same time, end up restricting player creativity.
Anything specific to the game world will be intentionally so, rather not unlike NPC costume pieces becoming available for players to use.
There will always be a level of suspension of disbelief and a level of limits to creativity that will be possible. It is unavoidable within the constraints of technology of the medium. We can however to our best to make the game world believable within its genre and respect the concept of aesthetic decoupling for how any form of powers operate for the player's character.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
The examples are just someone deliberately being difficult.
I know your just joking but I mean c'mon...we could go back and forth about the validity of my quickly expressed examples...Your robot can pour the drink on his armor and let the nanobots do their work, your ghostly shade needs only pass through the energy bar for the magic to work and your alien can take the stick from his ass for two seconds to down a gift of an energy drink from a grateful/fearful citizen.
I firmly believe that there is a give and take in games....sometimes you just have to accept something that doesn't fit your concept exactly.
Cyclops had an interesting idea that could add immersion for a bunch of players by not relying on the generic named 'help-boost' items that everyone sees all the time. We are already going to see generic named IGC, momentum buffs, power sets, augments and crafted items....why not include something solid here and there? Especially if there is a parity with the generic stuff.
The game simply cannot have everything fit every concept. A while back you commented on eating a pizza emote [url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/possible-location-rooted-emotes]here[/url]. This is effectively a similar concept that players who feel so strongly that it does not represent their character can just not use. It would fall in with the 'generic enough' idea of naming augments and craft items.
If every thing in the game is generic then the game won't feel alive... just having billboards is not enough ... just having store fronts is not enough ... you need something for players to actually use in their concepts that does not relate to just bad guys and storylines.
Yes, I said that about the pizza emote example, and even commented on it here when I said that it is better left to use for role-play rather than turning it into a statistical combat advantage. There is a world of difference in the usage between this two. Even saying something like a "drink" gives a healing boost, if it must come from specific "drink disepemsori g vending dispensers" require a lot of thought as to placement and availability in the game world, art assets, composition writing, not to mention providing enough different items for all the different types of boosts. It also ends up being very limiting in that it then entails all concepts of characters buy and drink items from said vending type dispensers.
I also said that anything specifical to the game world is going to be intentionally applied, not unlike NPC costume pieces being used by players. This goes for a lot of things.
But when it comes to powers, customization is a major component of the system. Even if a temp power were baseball bat, or eclectic hammer at its base, the intent is that players may still be able to customize these temporary powers to fit their particular concept instead of the game's model / animation.
While Radiac's idea isn't at all bad, I personally don't think it entirely fits within the context of the game being designed. Either it ends up having to be broadened to highly generic concepts - even your suggestion of categorically broad drinks does this - or it has to go the other route of very specific items requiring a lot of work and still can end up very grounded in the realm of "reality" eschewing the many fantastical aspects capable of being provided in the genre leaving those to be uncommon experiences because of the difficult nature of exclusion to the common setting. Hence why many examples of fast food which could be literally found anywhere in a modern city.
Hence my suggestion of applying the ease of implementation, using what is already planned for implementation in providing Reserve relenishments , but with the possibility of customized activation emotes.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
EDITED TO INCLUDE
I should say that my opinion on thing is based off the limited knowledge I have of the games setting and immersion efforts. It is entirely possible that something else the devs are already designing could fill the shoes of 'Hero Soda' easily.
There isn't a world of difference between them. Both require effort to implement and both are not going to fit every concept.
I think you are under the impression that I mean for these drinks and pizza buffs are the only ones the game will have. I don't...keep your generic concepts and include these as an immersive option. There is something to say about providing an interactivity option that has an in game effect .... don't you think? If it has an in game effect it is more visible and used....just like Nuka cola from fallout.
Would this not be true of anything purchasable put in the game, generic or not? I'm not sure why this is an argument against inclusion.
So you are saying there will be NO specific animations or names for anything the character can do? I find that hard to believe. The amount of extra work this would cause for everything in the game is insane. Every new animation you add will need to be backwards compatible, something that is not easy to ensure. And any temp power you introduce will have to be generic in the lore as well.... sorry no wedding band or Warburg nukes like temps.... Does not sound engaging. If you are not saying that then this could be one of those that don't have customization in it.
Obviously you can't talk in specifics on this ...but until you do this is very much like the idea of generic buffs...it can taken however the reader wants to.
This one and the other were both Cyclops idea... Radiac expanded on them. Not arguing....just want to give proper credit.
My problem with this kind of argument is that the game is already going to have ALOT of things that will require suspension of disbelief. Buffs/debuffs from power sets will already require players to accept that my hero 'Sir Buff-a-lot' can heal your robot with no open ports by the power of my laser sword for example.
In the end I really think you would be missing a lot opportunities by avoiding the use of a named consumable buff. Not only would it give the game an interactive option that provides immersion... it can be used in marketing as well....t-shirt/ball caps/whatever can be emblazoned with the logo for 'Suped Up Soda' as well as stuff like stuffed soda mascots, actually limited run cola, posters, drink cozy, ect ect ect. Fans like insider jokes and stuff like Nuka cola from Fallout is just ripe for this kinda thing. Its all well and good to have t-shirts with the signature heroes on them but a soda shirt is more about your personal character. There can also be promotional things like an in game 'Cola Wars' event or convention give aways.
Promotional material, marketing and immersion with the drawbacks being a bit of work and the fact it won't apply to each and every character seems a good deal to me. Of course in fairness...there is no guarantee of success in immersion, marketing or promotion with this, but then again....what exactly is guaranteed to be well received in the game.
You can go this way and it will work just fine.... or you can do both.
It's not a question of whether having a bunch of extra "temp buff" options (or vending machines to sell them) would be good for the game or not. Clearly the more things that could be crammed into the game the better.
The main problem from the Devs' point of view is the classic problem the Devs of any game always have - where do they draw the line between what they WANT to do and what they CAN do. Coming up with a huge menagerie of non-generic vendible items and/or buffs that can provide all sorts of in-game effects would take a large amount of effort to balance and implement. Sure it could be done, but it would take a lot of time among other things. On the other hand sticking to a simple, abstract system that's workable for any character concept is going to be far easier to start with for launch day.
I suspect if Tannim222 could wave a magic wand and wish into existence everything you're suggesting here he'd do it in an instant. But the reality is that Cyclops' original idea is not quite as straightforward as "let's just have a bunch of buff vending machines sprinkled around the city". To be done right that idea really needs to be EXPANDED to account for a huge range of alternate buff items and/or character concept situations. Remember that the main reason why "Nuka-cola" is perfectly fine for the Fallout games is that the only kind of character you can play in Fallout is basically a normal human - the Fallout Devs didn't have to worry about people playing robots, energy based aliens or other kinds of critters that don't/can't drink soda.
Ironically Cyclops' seemingly simple idea is only the tip of a huge iceberg of hidden development work. That doesn't make his idea bad or wrong - it just means that there's a lot more to the Pandora’s box he's proposing for CoT than most people might think. Frankly I'd rather not have such a potentially cool idea handled in a half-baked way. If that means we don't see something like this in the game until a year or two after launch I'd be fine with that.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
What about shawarma, can we have a shawarma place too? Even Thor enjoyed the shawarma. Oh and falafel for the vegetarians, you gotta have that.
joking/All ghosts, robots, aliens, sentient plants, elementals, oozes, constructs, outsiders, undead, etc can go find some other form of nourishment, if such even exists for them (BRAINS Burger?). If not, don't come crying to me that you can't get any use out of shawarma, it's not my fault you're not human. On the bright, side, you're immune to spells like "Hold Person" due to not being a humanoid, so you take the bad with the good (tongue in cheek DnD reference for the DnDs nerds out there). /joking
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
All joking aside if CoT could actually allow for a significant system of adavantages/disadvantages like the one you just suggested (i.e. getting Mez resistance for being a ghost but being unable to use food-based buffs because you're a ghost) that would be great. Most of the time when people propose a system of advantages for CoT they're only willing to offer up "disads" that aren't really disadvantages at all (e.g. suffering +5% damage from poison when they know full well they can almost always avoid fighting anything that might poison them).
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
All you're trying to do is the "Food & Drink" Temp Buffs out of World of Warcraft. Eat some Food, get a temp buff to your Max HP for an hour. Drink a Drink, get a temp buff to your Max Mana for an hour.
We don't need that.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
As long as the buffs we're talking about here are fairly short in duration (30 secs or 1 minute worth) then I don't have much problem with it. Situational buffing in the heat of battle is fine.
But if the intention is to replicate the "semi-permanent" food buffs of games like WoW or ESO (that like you mention last for a full hour or more) then I'd agree that there's not much call for that in a superhero based game. Semi-permanent food buffs almost make sense while you're questing in the wilderness in a fantasy setting. But that concept just doesn't really fit well with superheroes running around in an urban setting.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Why does everyone keep using this as the basis for saying no. It was never specifically said this would be a 'for launch' idea. And the 'lot of time and effort' argument falls kinda flat as well. If the buffs are already in place as are the emotes for drinking or eating and a way to purchase items from a specific location(not an unreasonable assumption) then the only thing that needs to be developed is the delivery mechanism. Of which largely amounts to art assets. Those art assets are probably already in development to give the world an immersion element anyway so instead of generic vending machines make specific ones for 'Robot Rust Remover' and 'Super Fruit for Super Friends'.
I gave three examples that could work for a vast majority of character concepts and even if I didn't this would be in ADDITION to the generic options the game is already going to have. The reason why Nuka Cola works in Fallout is because it gives a simple connection to real world recreation elements that most games simply forget about. Then they give it a nice in game effect to re-enforce its use. The exact same idea I am advocating here.
Again, most of this development is or should already be in the works...its just a matter of directing it towards a specific concept. I am fine with waiting a 'year or two' before implementing the buff elements but it would undermine many benefits if the fake product was not introduced earlier.
You didn't have a problem throwing the same kinds of excuses/rationalizations in my face back when I was making the logical case that costume creation in computer games should be a lot easier for the Devs to do in 2016 than it was back in 2004. Not so funny when the shoe's on the other foot is it? Just saying...
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I tend to agree with the sentiment of keeping it as vague as possible. Largely for the amount of work that it would take to make it be immersive for the vast number of concepts and also in my opinion how little it would add to the game anyways.
Puny Heroes.
I honestly don't really care if the buffs are any good, I just want to be able to go into any restaurant and have it be something you can interact with, instead of just a low-res skin on a big rectangular building. You could even have like REALLY expensive restaurants at the tops of some of the skyscrapers and stuff, like with wait lists, etc.
The police stations in CoX had NPCs you could go there and talk to, which was nice and made them feel "alive" even if it was the same NPCs in the same places saying the same banal stuff. It was still a functional part of the game to go inside there and talk to the detectives.
I'd love to see more of that type of thing. That is, more buildings you can go into and do stuff.
Some examples (some of these are a real reach, but would be awesome if they actually happened):
1. An arcade with separate video games and pinball machines you can click on to actually bring up a pop-up window and play them, for IGC. Including a working [url=https://onedrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=7637dfb5c1ba86bb&resid=7637DFB5C1BA86BB!3420&parId=7637DFB5C1BA86BB!3380&authkey=!ANrsxDNQOeFNpuA]Cosmogulus[/url] machine.
2. Different bars you can go into that have bouncers that will accept or reject you based on alignment, and each one has it's own exploration badge somewhere hidden inside it someplace. Badge hunters could then do the full alignment gamut in order to "pub crawl" all of them, whereas the role player could pick a team and stick with it, like the Houses in Harry Potter. Bars could even sponsor different inter-bar competitions of various sorts (PVP, trivia games, etc)
3. Different clothing stores that sell different types of costume pieces (perhaps each actual person that works for MWM as a costume designer could have their own shop?)
4. Restaurants the offer something useful that makes people want to go there (also, ghosts could probably drain the heat and so forth out of a piece of pizza, turning it into cold, dry, crusty, stale month-old pizza in a few seconds, thus deriving some form of nourishment from kit in that sense, and robots could drain electric energy out of food like that potato with electrodes experiment they do in highschool)
5. Different stores that sell Augments and Refinements (I gotta believe this is already in the works).
6. Post offices where you can do various housekeeping stuff like pay your upkeep on your lair, register your SG, send people items as email (why not? It's more immersive than just typing /mail in chat).
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Radiac, some of those desires, such as places to interact with, mini-games, and so on are all neat ideas, not entirely new, and things we'd like to do. They are low hanging fruits that perhaps with time may be able to implement.
I don't believe we will be segregating out costume pieces by various "shops". It is a whole lot of work for very little pay off in the long run, especially if many pieces are stuff earned through in-game actions or purchased from the cash shop.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
This does not relate to that.....at all. There I was explaining that the advances you thought happened did not. Here you are trying to use 'not for release' when no one suggested for release and over estimating the amount of work involved. Again...I suggest you go back and read the thread again cause what you took away from it is not what was presented.
Just for the record, in the general philosophical sense, I'm not against making some features like player-to-player email and so forth be things you have to go to a specific game location to do, even though that may not be strictly necessary.
Like in CoX, banks were places you could go to stash your stuff. They COULD have been replaced with a larger "bag of stuff" you get to just carry around all the time, but it wasn't.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I do like the idea of being able to interact more with the environment.
Vending machines, grocery stores and restaurants included.
And while an Age of Wulin style drop in health when you're hungry is a bit of a burden,
"Well Fed" buffs of various sorts not only make this interaction possible, they give us an incentive to participate.
I think as far as breaking immersion goes, a good solution would be to give the purchasable items names that are a bit more serious and keep it simple by having items fall into very specific and understandable categories.
e.g. Instead of nuka cola, we could use:
Dairy products for Healing
Carbs or caffeine for Energy
Meat or beans for Damage
Vegetables for Accuracy
Bread for Speed
With these basics established, different locations could have different menus, with different prices and bonus sizes.
You might also include some negative side effects for overeating, if we take too many buff items in too little time.
I gotta Go Potty!
Drug stores could also offer over the counter medication to cure certain afflictions, and doctors could offer stronger medicine.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Not arguing anything, just casting my vote.
I prefer the intentionally vague "Reserves". If there were a purchasable version, I'd like it to be Reserves or something equally vague.
No "accuracy veggies" or "nanobot cola" as an in-game mechanic/item, please :).
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
My issue with the whole "Meat for damage, milk for healing" deal is that robots, undead or energy beings just to name a few would certainly not really have those sorts of effect or any for that matter from eating or drinking regular food made for humans. In real life I also wouldn't suddenly heal a large cut on my arm from drinking a cup of milk, let alone in the middle of a fight against someone. And indeed, to my twelve foot brute of a character a cup of milk would be like a useless dixie cup, let alone a combat bandaid.
Instead if you want a use for restaurants I'm more inclined to say give them something like... A thirty minute or so experience buff for eating or getting an oil change or something along those lines, A minor one so that it isn't game breaking or deemed necessary. Maybe a five percent buff I don't know. Could also have them as a way to get in game tips towards missions similar to the police radio back in CoH from the local grub tender on top of that possibly. Rumours that lead to little, one time missions for quick experience and something to do whenever, dunno but just sounds better to me.
Puny Heroes.
Hmmm. Burritos for extra damage...with an area of effect.
I'll go along with whatever the Dev team goes for...but speculating is fun.
We could have little mobile "Roach Coach" vans selling goodies all over the city.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Even if the 'intentionally vague Reserves' was there as well? That's incredibly selfish.
I do not see a fundamental difference between a minor xp bonus and a minor accuracy bonus. Neither is game breaking or necessary.
I like this idea as well. If CoT was going to use a similar paper/scanner mission system as CoH did then this could be one way (not only way) to get those missions.
I'd be happy for various vendors all over the city, that sold 'refreshments', which, rather than having a Specific effect, simply charged your reserves. My 'cannibal robot' could grab a sack of nuts to nibble on and a can of cola - you can drink it first, he just wants the can.
Be Well!
Fireheart
It was to my understanding we were talking about Inspirations which were quick, few second or instantaneous boosts not longer term things akin to "well fedness". I'm not sure if I see a use in that or not. There were some things similar to that in CoH like temporary boosts in bloody bay and such but nothing quite like how WoW let you set down a feast and get well fed buffs. That was mostly left up to your class or people who's actual job was to be a buffer like the fire/kins.
If they were to add a new factor like that, which I'm still uncertain if it would or wouldn't be nice for the game, I would still like if it remained vague instead of being named things like food merely for the vast amount of concepts there are. Like simply going to the restaurant and standing there for a certain amount of time or just spending money on something called "service". Maybe have it so that certain restaurants gave certain buff types exclusive to them. But again, neutral on that subject at the moment.
Puny Heroes.
COH had different types of enhancements for characters with different origins and so in this game it would't be too different (one could say it was in the same spirit) to have different types of "food" for creatures with different origins.
I'm not sure what origins we're going with in this game but Tech characters could get their boosts from battery chargers, oil changes, transmission service, defragging their hard drive etc. While undead could get buffs from blood, body parts, or magical potions.
Maybe a character with a holy origin could buff up at the confessional or by praying at a shrine.
OK it IS getting a bit complicated for MY tastes but honestly a lot of people really eat this kind of stuff up, so it's something to think about.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Yes, that is just what we were talking about. I just was hoping for the green inspirations to be cola bottles.
alas I was shot down. Wah.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Are they not looking to eventually introduce the crafting of Insp/buffs? Why not then allow the addition of a cosmetic element to the crafting process? You can make your own Insp/Buff and make it look like Cola/Taco/Battery/etc. If the cosmetic element was a purchasable element using IGC, then all the better for everyone involved, yes?
Aaaand that's sophistic and argumentative hyperbole.
I said that I was not arguing, just (figuratively) casting my vote. Is someone who casts a vote for one particular Presidential candidate selfish because many others want the other candidate? Even if the majority of the others want the other candidate? Even if that would mean "denying" the others the candidate they want if your candidate won?
But, in case you want to split every hair, let's say there were a third option to have both candidates elected to co-preside. If I don't want both candidates because I personally honestly think that's not as good as just my candidate, should I not still cast my one vote?
You disagree with me, that's fine. You want to argue the point with someone who's stated that they're not looking for an argument. Well, ok. But at least argue well and don't just throw sloppy insults.
It does not make me "incredibly selfish", or even just plain old-fashioned "selfish", for me to cast my one figurative vote.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
This is not an accurate representation of what occurred. This is not an all or nothing situation yet you tried to make it one by saying...
This is more akin to saying I don't like romantic movies...never make one again. Or I don't like masterminds....don't include them in the game at all.
Or more accurately, I don't like this OPTION that I can avoid and my delicate sensibilities can't even tolerate the mere existence of it.
I don't care if you don't want to discuss something or not but when you make a declarative statement that not only denies others something they want but ignores the option to please both sides it is selfish and you are going to get response.
To my understanding Paladin they are doing away with Origins completely so as to not confine people to this or that specifically, which to me seems like a good thing since some characters could be both supernatural and techy in some situations. Also, Stellar, seeing as how quick you use and go through inspirations it would seem like a waste of time to straight up craft them, I hardly ever even bought them from the vendors myself and simply used what I got from beating up bad/good guys.
There were the occasions when I was soloing and would be going up against a boss way stronger than I was, died and went to the hospital and grabbed some heals on the way back but that was it and it wasn't often. And in those situations I would just blow right through them. ...Maybe that would work if you could simply craft the cosmetic itself as a "replacer" for your icon used by all future Inspirations instead of crafting the Inspirations themselves? Have icon slots for damage, healing etc. Though personally I'm still fine with the vague way of doing it.
On a side note y'all should calm down.
Puny Heroes.
Ok. My bad. I let you draw me into an argument I wasn't looking for.
What I said was accurate. I was simply stating my preference.
I know what you are saying makes sense to you in your head, but you are, in fact, ignoring most of what I said. All but the parts you can use.
I'd like to agree to disagree. If not, go for the kill and win the internet.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I wasn't trying to draw you into an argument. I was hoping you might look at what you said and think...that came out wrong. Its why I originally said 'That's incredibly selfish' and not 'You are incredibly selfish'.
If you had simply said I don't like this or I would never use this I would have no complaint. It's the idea that you can't even tolerate it for those who do like it or would use it when it wouldn't impact you at all that bothers me.
If these "food buffs" are going to be identical to reserv-buffs (since I can't see any other way to please both sides) then what's the point of making them actual items, rather than just aesthetic options for reserve-buffs, with the possibility to also use them as emotes.
I just can't see the advantage of "pigeonholing" people into a system of specific items for specific buffs.
I gave some reasons a while back but as the thread is getting long you might have missed them. Immersion, interactivity, marketing and promotional material. There is also small IGC sink as well.
For the record...I picture them more like the [url=http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Empowerment_Station] craftable buffs[/url] you could do in CoH. These were an oft forgotten buff players could use.
Having a place where you can just go buy a ready made option that was moderately immersive seemed like a win win to me. And if you are gonna allow there to be that then it seemed obvious to me to extend this concept to other aspects of temporary buffs like inspirations or rewards. Provide both...let players choose.
I don't have a problem with the notion of customizable animations for these buffs...I just think that both could be offered with the possible gain outweighing the relatively minimal (note I said relatively minimal and not none) amount of work.
I seem to be in the minority here so I don't think there is much cause for most to worry.
The speed that we burn through inspirations was part of what made me start thinking of longer lasting buffs.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Many/most foods are flammable and could be burned as fuel for robots, not unlike using vegetable oil to power a car, or the aforementioned electrodes in a potato to power a small LED. Aliens gotta eat something, so when in Rome, etc. Undead could simply drain the life essence out of the food and leave it rotted and dehydrated and stale, thus deriving some form of sustenance out of it. I can find similar arguments for feeding plants, oozes, outsiders and elementals if you want. Point being, anyone who complains that there are restaurants in a game like this and says "MY character concept doesn't NEED to eat" is trying too hard to find a reason NOT to go to a restaurant, in my opinion. And in any event, nobody's saying they should be so good as to be "must-do"for the discerning min-maxer.
No matter what the actual point of them is, I still just want to be able to go into a restaurant like Maj. Flanders' Chicken and actually DO something. I don't care if whatever it does is not entirely necessary, I just want to be able to actually go inside that building and have it mean something, as opposed to making that stuff non-functional window-dressing skinned onto building frames. I think I've repeated that enough times now. Sorry if I ranted. 10-4, over and out.
Edit: Oh, and I wouldn't be against making one or more of them ads for actual restaurants or food items if you can get paid to do that. If the Coca-Cola people want to give you money to make Coke vending machines in the game dispense some form of Reserves-refilling, one-shot temp power called "Bottle of Coke", I'm all for that, PLEASE take that money if it's offered.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Or Red Bull. "It gives you wings." For those heroes that can't fly.
I'm inclined to say that a large majority of robots wouldn't have what equates to a small oven to shove food into and would simply have somewhere to either plug in to recharge or a hole for refueling. Or that they would simply replace their battery all together. Not that it's impossible I just doubt that most of them would and there at the least certainly would be some that don't. A laser shooting robot would need a fairly decent amount of energy to keep going and vegetable oil and potatoes ain't exactly the most potent source of fuel, heh. As for the alien matter, Earth food would probably just be straight up poisonous to some of them and some undead such as vampires exclusively feed off blood. And the amount in a raw burger wouldn't cut it. Point being simple, earthly foods will not work out for "every" concept out there.
My character himself actually does eat food, he just has other means of surviving if he lacks it for long periods of time for some reason or another. I don't feel like explaining him but in a way eating to not feel pain from the effect of starvation and to not feel sluggish. So while he could do fine in a restaurant I'm still not keen on Inspirations being food, but not precisely against an optional skin or set of them being reskinned as such. In large because one, drinking a cup of milk or eating a hamburger doesn't heal a huge cut on your arm in the middle of a fight and two I don't go to a restaurant and carry my food around with me literally everywhere anyways.
Also Paladin, I thought we were talking about Inspirations themselves though? The topic of long term, well fed like buffs is another thing entirely and not even possible when it comes to heals.
Puny Heroes.
Sorry, my robot can't use your human foods at all. It lacks density.
Clockworks are terrified of him.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I'm curious how all these people who can't accept what amounts to a potion because it could interfere with a character concept is gonna reconcile getting buffs and heals from other players.
I think it is more the pigeonholing of item 1 does effect A, item 2 does effect B, item 3 does effect C and so on that is the perceived problem. And the ongoing "justifications" for that keeping it to food items alone is sufficient for every character since there is a mechanic that can make it work even though their original character concept didn't even get near to "having" it.
However, if these items amounts to "just a potion" then why not also include actual potions from magic/voodoo shops, medicine/drugs from pharmacies, actual power packs/cells from high tech stores and so on?
I have nothing against there being items outside of augments and such "power items" to be bought from restaurants and other shops, I just don't think that making them an equivalent of the reserve-buff system is such a good idea. I think reserve refills would be a better option.
I think I know what you mean but could you explain this differently just so I am sure.....
Lets see if I can.
The leading suggestions for this is that only specific items or groupings of items would provide specific buffs, like dairy for healing, and to many (who care about it) this would probably be too immersion breaking, depending on the concepts behind their character. For those who don't care at all or only goes for the animation (a.k.a "pure" RP situation) it wouldn't be a problem. Also, I don't see many players basing their characters around gulping down food in the middle of combat for a quick boost.
The other part is that there seems to be resistance against extending this concept beyond food items by coming up with ways that non-humans can utilize human food items. For instance, by claiming that one can just change ones robot to have a combustion chamber instead of implementing a shop with power packs/cells or other more proper source for robotic characters tells me that those people don't value other peoples potential for immersion and/or RP as much as they value their own.
Telling us that the reserve system is good enough for the rest of in both those situations just doesn't cut it since I, and most likely many others, don't see why food would be so much more important to get actual in-game items over the other potential items of same purpose. At least I feel that this is one of those things that is an "almost all or nothing" deal.
I don't think I would go for this if it is intended to replace the Reserves/Momentum system the devs are cooking up. As a supplement to? Maybe - but I personally don't see the point. I could go for something like this as parts for crafting, or as items [i]to[/i] craft I suppose.
Glad I asked...cause I was very wrong about knowing what you meant.
I see now that part of the problem with me expressing my desire is that I wasn't clear that my examples were not the entire suggestion. It could be anything that would fit into a 'recreational product/service' provided by an in game company. Food and drink are the easiest to use as examples and so I did.....my mistake. I usually make it clearer that the general concept is the important thing and the examples are not meant to be taken as the only way to achieve the result. In my defense I did offer suggestions that were not food at points and never specifically said it must be an eaten product/service.
Let me now make my suggestion clear.
I think the game should include a few in game companies who provide 'recreational products/services' that have the in game effect of a minor buff that lasts for a moderate duration or an instantaneous effect. The products/services should be quick in application and can include energy drinks, power bars, candy, soda, hair gel, potions, tune ups, psychic/hypnotic therapy, massage chairs or anything you can think of. The products/services should probably be super science, supernatural, holistic, alien or any combination thereof in nature to allow for maximum player concept coverage.
I further suggest that a minimum of three companies be made with each one either covering a broad section of character concepts or providing multiple products/services for concepts, those concepts being technological, natural, supernatural and alien.
So you can have a spa that caters to any physical concept (click the door and choose the service you want, go in and an appropriate sound effect occurs and you come out with your buff), a soda that provides flavors for aliens and humans (get a buff and/or instant heal) and potions that can be used by any combination of concepts (even ghosts and robots can use them cause its magic y'all) as just a few examples...not the actual suggestions, it can still be whatever the devs come up with.
In the end I strongly feel that the game will never match the infinite imagination of the players and trying too hard to do so will make the world nothing more than a painted backdrop instead of an immersive experience. Without giving the players some form of interactivity with the environment that is based on ideas that players can instinctively relate to, such as (but not only) recreation, entertainment or commerce then the game is missing a huge opportunity to breath some life into the world.
I hope you can see that my personal suggestion was not specifically food now. But I would like to offer a counterpoint to this...
This is not directed at you blacke because I don't think it applies but it is important to clarify.... for those who have a concept that is so narrowly defined that it can't fit broad concepts with specific products/services providers then they can use the generic options provided as no suggestion will ever be satisfactory for everyone. For those I don't feel much remorse in not specifically catering to them as they are deliberately choosing to limit the ways they can be a part of the world the devs have created. I have said a few times that players need to let go of certain things and work with the devs and not against them.
I mean, I can accept that I might have to try and fit my gun wielding prehensile tail and laser (pew pew) fart robot ghost vampire into what will be provided or abandon it because the game cannot be expected to do everything for me.
An issue I have with this concept is that it postulates specific objects with specific effects. This then requires that we have an Inventory in which to store and carry these objects.
One of my favorite things about CoH was that we didn't have to collect Rat-tails, Wolf-skins, or Troll-paws. We didn't have to store these things or know what to do with them. Most importantly, we did not have to STOP and loot the corpses of our enemy. No special movements or button-pushes to collect rewards. And all of the 'loot' in CoH was abstract.
That meant that you didn't have to define what you got, what it meant, or how you carried it. Inspirations were not candy or food or potions or power-ups - despite the fact that they had effects which would have been assigned to those items, in other games. Enhancements were not, strictly speaking, Gear - they were tokens that represented ability modifications. Granted, Set IOs, with their bonus effects, did act more like 'gear'. Even Salvage only accumulated in 'hammer-space' and we didn't have to lug around [url=http://www.gucomics.com/20000915]8 backpacks][/url] in order to carry it all.
I Like this Simplicity!
That said, I do agree that it would be nifty to hit the 7-11/Circle-K/snack-bar for a doughnut and a soda, on my way to the next mission. Or step into a 'Dragon Ramen' shop for something more substantial. I like the idea of restaurants as social hubs and semi-unique 'eating' animations associated with such venues. I like the idea of meeting at a picnic table in the park and calling 'Rocket Pizza' on my PDA, and having the delivery-guy drop out of the sky with a jet-pack and a hot-box of calzones.
However, all of those are 'social', 'atmospheric', or 'immersion' things. I'd just as easily stop at the nurse/pharmacist on the way out of the hospital, to stock up on Awakens. When I'm in pursuit of a Mission, I really don't Care about any of that 'fluff'! I want Effects, so I can empower myself to succeed.
This game is being designed so that there are no long-term 'buffs'. You can't go to the local church and get a 'Protection from Evil' spell, that will last all day. By the same token, you shouldn't be able to eat six steak-sandwiches to make you 'stronger' for some period of time.
I prefer abstract items to provide short-term buffs, while Reserves have your long-term effects.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I really wish you would use quotes or at least say who you are speaking to...I don't know if you are talking about my suggestion or someone elses.
Where do you get this from? I can't find anywhere that says the game won't have long term buffs be it purchasable, powers or craft buffs.
Indeed there will be places for refilling Reserves, crafted temporary powers, and even base-crafted buff stations. The main thing here is that any powers players craft and een the base designed stuff will all be customizable - aesthetics are decoupled from the mechanics.
Given that these mechanics will exist already within the game prior to devoting resources that would be necesary to create some of the suggestions here, it is highly unlikely that apecific food, beverage, and other consumable would be necesssary.
Just to make the suggestions of a beverage disspenser for buffs hou would need to put a team together: composition writer, 2d artist, 3d artist for assets, tech dev designer for powers, animator for animations. Then there there would be the testing process which involves QA.
This doesn't even get into the economic analysis of determing cost over time and comparing this value to the other already existing mechanics. What seems relatively 'simple' suddenly isn't so much. This also doesn't get into the ideas of restuarantes and other locations which may require a level designer and artists for other assets. Also determinig locations that are visble which don't interfere with existing mission entrances and spawn locations.
Not to mention how the entire idea goes back to the basic issue of mostly consuming digestible consumables. Meanwhile the existing mechanics will allow customization which can be comparably easier to build upon over time.
Yes it is possible to do, but considering the scope involved and what is already slated for the game which at least in the functional end for performance is concerned, will already be covered.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I do try to make a point to use quotes when I am replying to something specific.
In my last post, I was generally replying to all of the discussion about the OP's suggestion.
Tannim just reminded me that there Was one source of long-term (as in an hour or so) buffs in CoH, and that was the Base buffing-station. Other buffs, from Players and Items, were shorter-term and needed to be renewed periodically.
But his post also emphasizes one of the problems with long-term buffing items, particularly when one associates a specific item with a specific effect. It has to be Developed, Tested, and Balanced.
Personally, I find generic and abstract to be better game mechanics. That way, we don't have to get mixed up in whether Xenonite is the source of our powers, or if it will kill us dead.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I am just baffled by this Tannim.
You say the game is likely (I get nothing is a promise) to already have the mechanics and design of buff station, buffs, a variety of animations, places in the word where they are available and then say that to make a simple soda machine you need to do it all again?
How is that possible? Is there no way to use the mechanics and design from one and apply it to the other? When you looked for places to put those reserve refill areas you didn't notice any to put a soda machine? Does a vending machines artistic/3d design require extensive effort? For that matter, were non functional vending machines not already being designed for store fronts and could those not be used as functional ones?
If you guys deem a soda machine (as just one of an infinite possibilities) as unnecessary or not worth the time and effort I can accept that even if I don't agree and it disappoints me. But from what I know about game design (not a lot but a hell of a lot more than I did a year ago) and 3d design (a fair bit even if my skill at using that knowledge is amateur) a lot of this is sounding more like excuses than reasons.
Fair enough. But the use of wording like 'my issue with this concept' and 'This then requires...' seems to point to a specific suggestion and I did not know which one.....as your complaint did not apply to my last post I was confused as to who you were talking to.
I pointed that out and even linked to its description earlier.
As you seem to not be aware or possibly even care about what I have suggested or said (not a complaint or an argument just an assumption made without malice) I will leave it to others to discuss the topic further with you.
That isn't what I said. I said there would be Reserve replenishments available in key locations in the game world. Base crafts buff stations - things players would have to make and upkeep in their base, and temporary powers crafted by players.
Which are 3 different possible currency sinks (and some may require multiple sinks), with 3 different ways to get temporary buffs.
Difference being they don't end up enforcing a specific animation on the player to utilize for how a power operates. Nor would the random store front with a non-functioning vending machine outside may be an ideal location to use as a place for players to pick up powers.
I listed all the necessary team members needed to fulfill the assignment. The art assets being one part. Particularly since the idea suggested would require rather specific art such as "nuke cola" being a "brand" generic vending machine may not necessarily already have any branding and if it were to be done, everything should be done properly do it right or not at all. So generic vending machine enneeds to be made into "nuke cola machine".
You also conveniently ignore all the other aspects related to the concept which would be necessary. None of which are trivial as they are all necessary to complete implemetation.
Given the context that powers are meant to be aesthetically decoupled (this includes temporary ones) and that there are plans for several ways for players to obtain temporary buffs in one fashion or another, one must ask, is adding yet another one necessary, what is the impact (as this affects a number of performance metrics, and future planning of additional zones), what is required to complete the implementation? It results in limited custmization (which goes against an existing design goal).
What is the likelihood of priority for this to actually occur? Hence as I said, it would be a pretty low hanging fruit as there are existing methods, and the resources required will most likely be better spent on higher priority items. Of which I have a long list from internal discussions, and another huge list of player ideas.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I guess I must be missing something because the only difference I see between a base crafting station that provides buffs and a vending machine that offers the exact same buffs are location, art design and what it costs players who use it. Mechanically they are the same to me.
I wasn't saying to keep the machines in front of the stores, I was asking if the non-functional ones were being designed and if they were then why couldn't those 3D designs be used for the functional ones? It relates directly to the idea that you put forth about how everything needs to be created from the ground up. My point is that much of the work you are using as examples is already being done.
I also expressed my surprise over the idea that it would require a concentrated effort to find locations to place these machines as you will already be looking for places to offer buffs in the world itself. There is no reason the effort to find suitable places for one can not also include looking for places for the other. This would apply to the playtesting, Q&A, balancing and future applications.... these are already being done and it is not monumental to add this to the process. When I go buy a shirt its only a nominal effort to buy pants as well.
And I pointed out how much of the work this team would be involved in would be already done by other teams. The 3d model for the vending machine, the mechanics behind how it works, finding a location, animations and so forth. All that is left is actual art design of these machines.
As my entire point was to include something that wasn't a generic and thus forgettable background object I would expect there to be a need to create the fake product and company. I also expressed the possible advantages to including this which involve marketing, promotion, immersion and interactivity. None of which has been commented on in the least. If all I was saying was 'do this cause I like it' I could understand arguments against my suggestion focusing on the effort to implement. But without addressing those possible advantages, the effort required seems to be a small price for the gain.
You will have to specifically point out those aspects because I don't see what I am 'ignoring'.
I have specifically said many times that this suggestion would be in addition to the aesthetically decoupled ones so how does the existing design goal change? How will this limit the options for customization?
As for the question 'is adding another necessary', you have not addressed any of the advantages I posit. As a result I maintain that while it may not be 'necessary' (no multiple options are), it is advantageous to do so.
Low hanging fruit implies that something provides gain for minimal effort, this is not what you are using as much of your argument against. You are speaking about how the effort to implement it is fairly substantial.
As I said, if you think the amount of effort is not worth the gain or its just unnecessary/unimportant I can accept that even if I don't agree and am disappointed. You are making the game after all.
But I cannot just accept that to implement this suggestion there would be this monumental effort required that you are implying.
In any event, the points we are making have devolved into new ways to say the same thing over and over. I fear we are at an impasse ... no progress can be made.
Wow. It even ends in an accusation. An excuse for what?
I think you are forgetting MWM is not a AAA game developer - this is a small-scale volunteer effort. There is not much in terms or time or people to go around and there are FAR more important things to take care of, including the buff/buff recharge systems the devs [i]already[/i] have planned.
Its not an accusation, its a description. I am fairly certain that Tannim is aware of the difference. In the context I used it I would have thought what I meant by 'excuse' obvious, but I can see it may not be so to everyone. In this case I am using 'excuse' by the definition of lessening/limiting responsibility as a defense. To be clear, I feel that the amount of effort to include this suggestion is being stressed beyond the actuality of it in order to assuage ill will.
I am not forgetting anything about the size of the development team. Nor am I demanding my suggestion replace anything more important. But as I left my copy of the development schedule in my other pants which not only includes the 'FAR more important things' but the entirety of the games development I'm having a hard time remember what they are...perhaps I could borrow yours? Joking sarcasm aside (in case you thought that was an insult let me be clear it was meant in good humor), we don't know what is being worked on right now so there is no way for us to determine if my suggestion is a better use of development time or not. I conceded that the devs have final say on whats going to be included in the game more than once....that is not the issue I have.
Since you missed it let me quickly paraphrase it here. If the biggest hurdle to my suggestion is the huge amount of extra work involved that Tannim has been saying then perhaps re-purposing existing efforts, design and mechanics will alleviate the majority of that workload. If extra effort is not the biggest hurdle and its simply something the devs have deemed unnecessary, unimportant or unwelcome (any or all of which seem to be the case) then just say it... otherwise we are just discussing something that is of little relevance to the result.
I appreciate that you want to defend the game and the devs but in this case I am not 'attacking' them. I am discussing a suggestion and while we both might be emphatic in our expressions of opinion we are not fighting. I think if you go back and read my replies to Tannims posts after reading this you will see they are not hostile.
In this you are correct they are mechanically the same. Except for how player designed pieces are to be built by players (we have some interesting plans for base designed stuff), and a leads provide the function without any additional effort on the dev side.
It is because there will be specific locations which provide reserve refills which already provides a method for obtaining a buff for combat - at which can be activated at the player's discretion, not to mention crafting or purchasing from the AH other temporary powers zero additional work on the cv team.
And just because QA time is devoted to testing one thing doesn't mean that adding to the workload is simple because "they are already testing". Each and every thing added to the game has to be tested, the more things added, then,ore testing involved. When the thing being asked for inclusion already has multiple methods which provide similar functions, it is less likely to be included.
Often in game design low hanging fruits are left to hang because the higher hanging fruits end up having priority making it increasingly less likely to go for the low hanging ones.
I didn't mean to imply that the effort involved is "monumental", I only specific what is minimally necessary for the implementation process. Just because something seems like it would involve minimal effort as it has been postulated is more involved that the statement assumes.
All I'm saying here is that due to the fact that there are already plans to provide simlar functions to the game which have priority over this concept, makes it less likely for inclusion later.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
As I seem to have gotten my answer, my part in our discussion has become purely academic in nature Tannim. Any questions I raise or points I make are not meant as an argument for my suggestion but to further my knowledge of the process. Please don't feel any kind of obligation to reply to my posts if you are too busy for a discussion of a theoretical nature.
Whew, for a minute there I thought I was talking out my ass. I am only learning these about this kinda stuff right now.
I do understand that the purpose of the base buff stations is for ...well the base.... I was just stating that an open world buff station would be mechanically the same as the base version. I also (smiley face) hate it (wink) when you give those little teasers about what you guys are planning...makes me just wanna dig at it till I know....but that just gets us in trouble.
I am not sure how this relates to what you quoted. Can you explain this differently?
Is QA quality assurance or is it Q&A? It makes a difference because QA encompasses everything in that quote while Q&A does not.
In any event, I do understand that my suggestion would add to the quality assurance workload. My point was that because my suggestion is so similar to other aspects you say are likely (again not promise) to be included in the game, there is a fairly strong crossover element to the work being done already.
I do concede that actual playtesting would have much less of this crossover element and I should not have included it along with the rest.
Is the 'low hanging fruit' phrase and this interpretation a common one in game design, or is it a personal interpretation? I ask because common usage of the phrase is different....'My sales contest only lasts a week so I am going to go after the low hanging fruit first' or 'I really want to impress my boss so I am going to avoid the low hanging fruit and really get things done.' Your use of it confuses me but it would make a lot more sense if this interpretation was common in game design.
Fair enough. It seems in this case we both unintentionally implied some beyond what we meant, I made it seem as if the added effort was nominal and you did the reverse. In actuality much of my repurposing ideas about the design process are true but they do not bring the effort required down enough to make this a worthwhile endeavor. Or am I mistaken in my understanding of your thoughts here?
I can fully understand the sentiment that this implies... but you have to agree that without knowing what those 'similar functions' are this is not so much an argument as it is asking me to have faith in you.
I do have faith in the game and development team. I am anxiously waiting for the next round of funding so I can contribute as I missed the first one. My continued efforts to have the game include features and mechanics I feel would be an benificial is not meant to imply I do not trust you. The suggestions and emphatic discussion comes from not having the same perspective in regards to development you do and I am unable to simply accept the 'have faith' situations. I tend to go the 'trust but verify' route in situations like this.
Anyway, as I said at the top, I seem to have gotten my answer....the devs feel the effort is not worth the gain. While I don't agree and am disappointed, I fully accept that position.
Only looking at how "low" the fruit hangs and prioritize by that would most likely lead to them either postponing the game a long time, or delaying or even dropping certain major features. Pretty sure this isn't limited to only game development but at least to software development in general, and probably a few other industries. This is part of their (and every business') eternal "Game of ROI" and going for the things that have a proportionally higher value for their customers is just proper business.
I am not asking the reason why they choose to pursue other features. I really am just curious as to this interpretation of the phrase and if it is a personal interpretation by Tannim or if it was part of game development lexicon. Much like how for most people RTS means return to sender but for gamers it could mean real time strategy.
It is ised commonly among the other developers I personally know in both gaming and other software development fields. Since our context is gaming the "low hanging fruits" phrase can often be applied to features that are eaiser to implement and / or also are considered a lower priority over other features.
One of the pitfalls of development is to go for what is easier to do but at the risk of making them more important than more intensive, larger impacting, and / or other features that result in a better return of investment. Development teams that are poorly managed have done this resulting in a poorly designed game becaus while lots of things may work, core mechsnics and features are incomplete (and still lushed through because it is needed). buggy, or poorly thought out resulting in negative experience by the players. At times this is also a cause for the project never getting completed or "vaporware".
Often times the "low hanging fruits" are left to hang snd esseentially "rot" as in never get designed or implemented because other work consistently comes up that has a higher priority.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Thanks Tannim.
Considering that every definition I have seen of "low hanging fruit" is "the easiest task to achieve" then I just can't see how Tannim's statement can have a different interpretation of said phrase.
All I can see in his statement is that they are leaving out (or for later) easy to do things since they aren't that important/valuable to the game, and given their limited resources they rather go by importance or value to the game
Definition and interpretation are different things. The definition of low hanging fruit is a gain for minimal effort, the interpretation is that gain for minimal effort has a predetermined value associated with it. Common use of the idiom is that the gain is worth more than the effort. Every use of the idiom by Tannim presented the interpretation that low hanging fruit was something to avoid...it had a lesser value simply by being easier to obtain.
Of course, the 'low hanging fruit' May be saved for later, once the more important, high-priority items have been thoroughly worked out. After Launch and, hmm, say the second de-bugging pass, then the Devs might look around for something easy to add... or not.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Tannim. Thank you for being so kind and patient with this thread. I must have tapped into something, cause this turned into the energizer bunny of threads.
My suggestion happened when I was struck by the idea of a utility belt with no pouches, and nothing but bottles of Nuka Cola. Or animations of coolers being opened and heroes reaching in to a cool refreshing Drink.
This might serve better as a few emotes than inspirations.
******** but I still want a brand of Cola unique to Titan city. Billboards are cheaper than animations.
Amerikat Kola is still available.
Black Falcon won't have a cause because she is putting her name on a micro brewery.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Coldi-Pop, Sode-Of-Blast, Oranga-Crush, Icy-Mush, Red-Blu, Monsta-R-Us, 5 Hour Rush, Fontana, Dr Pepper Spray, etc... as some of the names for the drinks. ;)
Gimme a Cold Fontana and a Dr. Chili, please.
Be Well!
Fireheart