Okay so, I did some thinking, and realized that having action or twitch combat would be a bad idea, but I'd still like movement to matter, while still having a tab targeting system.
So, I was thinking we could have it to where it uses tab targeting, but when you move a certain way, you get buffed.
For example, lets say you strafe for about a second, to a second and a half, while you're doing this, it applies a buff to your evasion rating. Or if you move back or use a timed defensive ability like a block, it raises mitigation, or chance to block if you're using a shield. Or if you're moving forward, it makes you take more damage, but deal more damage with attacks that don't require a charge up time to pull off, mostly melee attacks.
You could have rolling too, but what it would mostly do is just give you an instant evasion buff that only last for about a second, and you can only roll so many times. You could have abilities and passives that add to this, and travel powers could be thrown into the mix too.
That way, it still uses a tab targeting system, but it allows for movement based game play and timing for those who like that sort of thing to apply, without requiring a complex physics system and still keeping the game cost affective and appealing to everyone.
Also, do away with how coh kinda rooted you in place a lot with abilities, that has to go.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I was mostly ranged and I preferred being rooted in place simply because it kept you from running circles and spamming abilities all around the poor melee users who couldn't hit you. (*stares at CO*)
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
It's not that hard man, I played a scrapper, they can just super speed or jump to you. Wow lets you strafe and use abilities and auto attack, only time you can't is when the ability has a cast time.
I think they made it root you becuase most people were just jousting in PvP (just superspeeding and hitting) being that said I don't see why it shouldn't be wroking differently in PvE and PvP. It would give interesting tactical options for sure. Some powers still maybe better by rooting (did you ever see anyone sniping with a rifle while running or moving around?) but not all powers needs to auto root you in place.
What I mean by rooting is, some animations for abilities locked you in place too long, I can understand cast times and stuff, but I felt like there was too much stopping for every single ability. As for travel powers working in combat, definitely scale them down, but offer things in some of them to compliment this system, I think that would be cool. Like if you take super speed, lets say normally you can only roll dodge twice in a short time, with super speed can change the animation for roll (just for fun) and give you a bonus roll dodge. Or with teleportation, it could be handy in combat too for evasion. Just as a few examples of how you can take travel powers a step further while still having tab targeting.
I admit, one of the things I like about SWTOR is that one can move and fire a blaster at the same time. And one of the things I dislike is that many Jedi ranged-attacks require you to stand still because they're interruptible. I enjoy being mobile in combat and, when I'm the Tanker, I use that mobility to draw the enemy into a strategically advantageous position. When I'm not the Tanker, I often move so that I'm in a strategically or tactically advantageous position. I don't want to give up the ability to attack, in order to move a few feet.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Yeah, I do understand that certain things make sense to hold still for though, like sniping like greenstalker said, which I'm okay with, but having to stop to use every basic ability in your rotation? That's just silly to me and makes combat feel clunky and slow.
Even if they don't consider this suggestion, I hope at the very least cot doesn't carry over that clunky feeling cox had.
I DO like the fact that unless I'm charging something in CO I can move around while attacking.
I don't PvP so none of my comments include any thought to that side of the game...sorry.
How about if ranged direct-damage sets (Blasts) have a Defense buff if the target is outside of 15-20 feet of you? If the enemy closes, you're motivated to keep away. Of course I'd like to have 1-2 close-up blasts or punches to deal with such people.
I'd also like to explore the idea of cover even using tabbed targeting. If you target an enemy but he's half concealed behind crates then that affects you to-hit numbers. Likewise, if he shoots at you and you move behind cover you get a Defense buff of some kind.
I'd like to go into more detail on this one way or the other.
I was under the impression that the rooting was, in part, because of animations. I may be wrong on that score though
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Actually, swtor uses a cover system and tab targetting, so it's something worth exploring, there's lots of ways you can apply this system.
As for root, it is because of animations, so it's just a matter of design to keep combat smooth. But it's also important to make abilities feel impactful so just using your abilities feels good.
Then lunge at, or use mez attacks. Rooting was terrible idea for ALL powers, some powers I can see, not all.
QFT
City of Heroes made every attack a Rooting attack primarily for reasons of animations, if memory serves. That means it was an allocation of resources kind of issue where they didn't want to have to make even more animation combinations and settled on Rooting as the way to "solve" the problem in a standardized fashion. Cryptic, and then later Paragon Studios essentially got stuck with that legacy decision when other games "moved beyond that" and developed "faster" more mobile combat experiences.
Once again, I'm going to pull out my Tabula Rasa experiences to address this issue.
In Tabula Rasa it was perfectly possible to use your weapons and attack while on the move. This made combat more "dynamic" since you weren't limited to a fighting style biased towards "stand and deliver" necessarily. However, you had the OPTION to "park" and not move, and there was even an option to [url=http://tabularasa.wikia.com/wiki/Crouch]Crouch[/url] where you would essentially "double down" on limiting your own movement and Rooting yourself (involved taking a knee).
[img]http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070629191509/tabulawiki/en/images/a/a2/Crouch.jpg[/img]
The way that Tabula Rasa handled these different circumstances was through a [url=http://tabularasa.wikia.com/wiki/Beading]Beading[/url] mechanic, where the tighter the Beading (displayed on screen visually using the Target Reticle) the better the damage throughput onto the Target. This meant that you dealt more damage when Crouched (maximum tight Beading), did nominal damage when standing but not moving (slightly looser Beading) and did slightly less damage than nominal when moving (slightly looser Beading yet again). The graphics for this was a triangle of lines pointing at the center that would move inwards when you had a Target, and effectively represented a sort of "aiming" styled mechanic. So if you were standing and moved your reticle onto a target (using camera direction), the bead lines would start drawing inwards until they stopped. Beading would happen slower while moving and happen fastest when Crouching. It basically meant that doing things like "snap shots" were usually least effective, but over time as you (so to speak) "drew a bead on your target" your aim would get better until reaching what amounted to an accuracy cap dependent on what your character was doing (moving, standing or Crouching).
The practical upshot of the Beading system was that you did your best damage when immobile and Crouching, because that got you the fastest Beading and the tightest Beading possible (meaning more damage per attack) ... but it also meant that you were immobilized (by choice!). This meant than you had less of a Stand And Deliver dynamic going on and more of a Crouch And Deliver sort of gameplay happening with ranged weapons usually, including multiple players forming "firing lines" of infantry to deal with oncoming hordes of Bane on occasion (although shooting was all Fire At Will and unsynchronized) in support of each other, even when not Teamed. It meant that depending on the situation, you could either have mobile combat (like WoW does) or stationary combat (like City of Heroes enforced) and depending on the situation there could be advantages and disadvantages for either choice. Thus, it was possible to do things like Retreating Fire in Tabula Rasa, which once again "felt right" for its more military theme.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
As my memory serves, the reason for the rooting was PvP. "You have to do something about jousting/kiting! I can't win!" "Okay, we'll make it so every attack roots you, so it puts a pause in their movement and forced to stay in one spot for a second!"
CoH did other nerfs for PvP. The only place Energy Transfer was deemed OPed was in PvP. High Damage, quick animation, melee attack. Oh no! And instead of adjusting it strictly for PvP they gave it a longer uglier animation (I didn't even mind the longer animation, but it went from nice, albeit simple, animation, to a really ugly looking animation).
City of heroes didn't even have pvp until a year or two after it was released, plus there's lots of tab targeting games that let you move when you're not using an ability that has a cast time through use of global cool down. For example Rift and SWTOR. They have great animations that look great while you're moving, suggesting that having movement with attacks is just plain silly imo. You can have good looking abilities and still have movement, lots of other games have proved that. Games as old as COH, *cough wow cough* have been proving it for a long time.
It's time for smoother combat.
So how about this for more of an 'ideal' system (assuming it won't make Devs and video cards cry): Tap Powers allow you to keep moving. Charge/Build Up Powers root you (because of the Charge time) and certain Powers (we can determine which ones later) actually root the character as well as granting a Defense debuff (making them easier to hit) but allow for more damage and a higher chance to hit? Best of all worlds that way. The people who really like 'scoot and shoot' will build around Tap powers with fixed effects. Those that don't mind rooting during charging can take those powers as well. For those that like the whole 'sniper' idea they can take ANY ranged, non-AoE Power and opt for an 'Offensive Stace' that grants damage and accuracy buffs but Defense debuffs.
This could be good for all types since a melee character might be able to jump behind an opponent to get a second of advantage just as much as a ranger can take the flanking shot from cover.
I'd still like to explore the idea of cover during all of this though. I've had some pretty hairy battles in CO where I was being chased all over the military base by goons. If I stayed put too long I was dead. I can see this working for CoT as well. You get into the fight, it goes against yu and you leap behind something for a second to breathe. Likewise, if the ENEMY jumps behind something you might have to relocate to see and hit them.
By the way, something else we might want to discuss in Auto-Powers and how they factor into all of this. A lot of that jumping around and shooting I mentioned was due to my End Builder auto-power and my first attack which was a Tap Power. Is there merit to having some sort of auto-attack on the faster-recharging Powers? Might make things ever more interesting...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Well Comicsluvr, part of the problem is, we don't know how CoT will do powers. For all we know, CoT won't even have Charge powers. CoH's idea of a charge power was just a longer animation time. All the powers were clickies with a recharge time. Personally, I liked that aspect.
What I hope though, is since I think CoT plans to go RNG route with dodging/game mechanics, that they don't break Dodge down to Dodge/Avoid like CO does. Hate how when I dodge an attack I still take damage. How is that dodging?! It'd be another thing if once could build to avoid all damage taken on a successful dodge, but they don't even allow that.
Went and hunted down a [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVuclv_GJVA]video[/url] on youtube that shows the Beading happening in a way that is visible (if you know what you're looking at). Unfortunately the video is only 240p, so the resolution on playback isn't great, but the Beading is still visible.
What you're looking at is a Sniper using a Sonic Torqueshell Rifle (the Sniper Rifle of the game). The thing to pay attention to is that around the target reticle in the center of the screen you'll see a triangle of short little lines that move in towards the center (and stop around the center reticle). Those little moving lines were the Beading indicator telling you how accurate your shots were going to be in that moment. Closer the bead lines were to the center, the more damage you'd be dealing to your target. The bead lines only started moving to the center if your reticle was placed over a target, and if you Tab Locked onto the target they would keep closing in until maximum Beading was achieved. You can also see at the very beginning of this video that the rate at which the Beading closes is different when standing and when Crouched (because Crouched it happens faster and the bead lines close on the reticle faster). Made for a very CLEAN set of UI elements that were easy to see through so that you could pay attention to what was happening downrange.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I agree, the Dodge/Avoid thing is way too clunky for my taste too. I'm not a fan of Block either and I read that many players ignore it. I'll have to try that next time I play.
You're right about your other point too...we don't know how they'll do Powers. However the whole point of having these forums is so the Devs can see what we're talking about. Depending on how far along in the coding process, core game mechanics might still be changed if an overwhelming majority called for it. This is the idea behind such spirited discussion and debate...at least for me.
Several of us have been very heatedly discussion our opinions regarding targeting and overall gameplay. My suggestion is a sort of amalgam of several of the ideas I've seen. It's something that I would enjoy testing to see how it works. If everyone else has a better idea then I'm eager to see them.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Here's another [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5jjhAG1ZMQ]video[/url] of Tabula Rasa gameplay I found featuring a Sniper, which not only shows the Beading UI elements better (because the action is taking place at night, making the white of the target reticle easier to see) ... which which also demonstrates the Tab To Target Lock that I've been talking about. Specifically, at about 1:20 in the video, you'll see the character start lining up a shot to take on a faraway enemy, and a part of the target reticle "detaches" from the center of the screen and starts following the Tab Locked NPC in the distance. The player then moves their camera such that the center of screen is no longer pointing at the selected target, which still has a portion of the reticle system locked onto it, and then they take their sniper shot from a crouched position. This particular moment in the video brings a lot of the disparate elements of what I was talking about together and you can watch how the Player sets everything up between 1:20-1:45 to make a kill on what amounts to a Giant Monster from a long distance.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nZ7eca_vRA]Another Tabula Rasa video[/url]. Its slightly higher quality, and it also shows the "sticky targetting" a few times in it, as well as the speed of beading for weapons.
My idea I posted in another thread, but I don't think my idea would work with how CoT plans to do some things, for instance my idea was based around everyone having a defense set they can build up. :p
Powerset versus Freeform. I do prefer freeform, but I think CoT (and CoH could've) can do something close as long as they're willing to not gimp the "power pools"
CoH's problem was "oh yay! I can grab this concept defining power in my Epic/Power Pool but...it's...terrible...to actually use?!" CoH never should've put those Power/Epic pool attacks as less damage than tier 1s. :p They should've been equal to tier 2s so people could build to replace that (for example) punch attack with a fireball.
CoT planning to allow you to pick the animation only makes this better. Melee Class and I pick my ranged PBAOE (bigger radius than melee PBAOE) to use Bullet Ballet/Lead Tempest without to much of a hit in damage.
I also think going closer to CoH's route for "attack" powers is good, because well, I hate that CO lets me get by with 2 attacks :p I'd rather have a 3-4 ST attack chain and 1-3 AOE attacks (depending on power choice limits and what have you).
And with how CoT has said they plan to allow power customization, I do hope they give a rather decent size variety for concepts at start, which should probably be a big focus for a CoH Spiritual Successor, which I think all can agree, customization is part of CoH Spiritual Successor.
Tell me more about this defense set thing. I'm intrigued...why wouldn't it work?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Well, I had thought of it as more of a point based system...maybe it could work, but it's not the route they're going and was thought up with a combination of tab-targeting/twitch combat.
My idea was everyone picks their defense type, as comicbook types generally have their type of defense usually sprinkled with something else, with a general resistance to blunt force trauma (blunt damage).
Sooo....
Invulnerability Framework (throwing out numbers here) starts with: 50% Smashing/Lethal Resist, 15% Fire/Cold/Energy with none to start for Dimensional/Magic/Toxin/Psi
Being point based one could points into the Invunerability Framework for additional Resists, Regen, limited Defense. Limited Defense in that it would be limited to Single Target Range Attacks and Melee Attacks.
Put a point in a power increase, it will limit what you can put in another. For instance, You put a point in the +15% S/L Resist (which you can put in up to 3 points) it will stop you from putting a point in the 10% to Fire/Cold/Energy (which could cap at no more than 4 points total in) or the 5% to All Resists (which caps at no more than 4). Basically the idea being you can create the INV Type hero, which is generally invulnerable to the physical types of damage and weak to the one's it doesn't start with. There'd also be places to put points into some additional regeneration and the previously mentioned defenses. Could even have a put a point to increase Smashing Resist by 25% or some such.
Basically Superman at Spider-Man level of superhero (I think for a proper Superhero MMO, all players should be leveling towards making Spider-Man, Batman (when not being OPed), Wolverine, Gambit, Batwoman, Catwoman, Psylock etc etc level of hero...A listers all of them, but not quite the SAVE THE WORLD FROM AN INVADING ALIEN ARMY ALL BY THEMSELF!).
Regen Framework: 500% Regen, 25% Smashing Resist, 50% Toxin Resist then put points into more regen, more to resists, additional resists not granted at start and again limited defenses.
Now for the example of why it's limited...
Super Reflexes Frame Work: 25% Smashing Resist with Not Limited Defense. Any attack thrown at you, you get a chance to dodge by RNG. Then put points in to beef up those numbers in your RNG Defense, as well as points in regeneration, groups of resists or maybe individual resists.
Super Reflexes (and other mostly based on the idea of Dodge style defense...like Shrink Defense) would be the only ones who can do such things as use the RNG to dodge AOE attacks. Every other non-Defense based Framework would have to actually move out of the way of those ranged AOEs.
There would be no Accuracy. Melee would automatically hit with the target rolling on the RNG to see if they dodge. Thought this fit the comicbook superhero staple of punch-punch lots of connects!
Single Target range attacks would be like TERA, aim and shoot, opponent can run the hell out of the way! However (and why people can build for RNG Defense against ST Range attacks) with it's own point system, those ST Range Attacks can gain the advantage of lock on...but it would mean they can't beef up the damage as much as someone who relied purely on aim and shoot.
This would allow players who want a bit of added RNG Help in dodging to beable to get it, while also being able to just move out of the way! Kind of a double chance at dodging, while letting those that think/are that good to rely purely on running out of the way and having thus maybe even more points into resists/regens/what have you.
Ranged Smashing Attacks would have automatic lock on without a damage loss (being highly resisted and all) but if people have their tier 1 being 100% Fire Damage for instance, they'd have to purchase the lock on advantage. I was thinking as long as the attack was 50-75% (maybe more...again, no real numbers worked out...this is all general idea on a concept I've worked on a bit) Smashing, the lock on advantage remains free. Melee attacks would be automatic lock as long as they had so much Smashing Damage as well, but then we go back to everyone able to build for Melee Defense.
Lock on advantage would likely be more advantage in PvP and a few of the more possibly slippery (fast moving) Archvillain level NPCs than normal minion level NPCs who'd likely be pretty easy to aim and shoot at (like they were in TERA...which is how I found TERA to be...aim and shoot you pretty much hit all NPCs, it was only in PvP did aim and shoot really mattered).
Now all Tiers of attacks would do the same amount of damage, the differences would be damage types. So yay! You have that tier 9 (no idea if it would go that high, just made up number) Fire Blast of Doom! YAY! You're up against enemy fire demons or a Fire Armor PC! So sad. :(
The tricky part would just be figuring out the right numbers for the baseline, and then moving stats around. We for instance wouldn't want to see Regeneration Powerset in CoH be more powerful for PvP than the Invunerability powerset.
Much like CoT you'd pick the framework, but then pick the animations, so one could pick Invunerability but use an animation (or none at all) to say it's something else...maybe it's just an INV power armor or body armor or magic spell?
Points would build up Defense Framework, your attack frameworks, and be able to allocate to other little perks (think akin to travel powers/power pools), with players killing for XP (more points to allocate) and gear which would be like global enhancements (can't build for AOE Defense in your Defense Framework, while not as likely to get as good unless you totally focus on it and skip the global damage enhancement, you can now build for AOE Defense...more damage...more...whatever!).
What the points could be spent on in the Defense Frameworks would vary framework to framework. And while you could max a trait out at 5/5 for instance...putting a point in Benefit A for 1/5 could lower Benefit B from 0/5 to 0/4, while Benefit C stays 0/5. A little time with math work, and I think it could be worked out to be balanced on all fronts, with the real deciding factor being "OMG! Am I about to duel the Human Torch Homage when I'm the Black Cat Homage based solely on defense with no fire resist?!" or "Am I the gunslinger homage about to duel the superman homage?" "Supergirl versus the spell slinging mage?!"
Why not use the CoH slotting system instead of a points system? We keep the best part of ATs but open up the selection of Pool power sets to everyone. Something like this:
We have all the basic ATs we all know and love including Tanks, Blasters, Controllers, Defenders, Scrappers and Masterminds. (Note that I'm using CoH conventions for clarity and nothing else.) Now every AT gets the same number of power selections and slots as they level up. However the Pool Powers would include Defenses that anyone can take.
'It would turn into CO's rather bland Freeform system!' Not so, says I. That's because the value of the slots would change depending on what AT you are. A Tanker taking the Kinetic Protection Pool would get X amount of defense from the set. A Blaster would get less Defense just like Defenders used to get the best numbers from Leadership.
The other thing (and the only part that makes this work) is that there would be no diminishing returns for multiple slots. So if my Blaster wants 25% Resistance then he has to 5-slot the power (assuming 5% per slot). Those are slots he can't spend on offensive powers. Yes, I'm sure there will be optimal builds out there within weeks of the launch but let's face it, every game has that anyway. The point is if we allow enough variety that players can find different ways to do the same thing then we can avoid Uber-Build syndrome.
Now the sliding scale for the effectiveness of each slot is deliberate. It ensures that there is no way that a non-tanker can get tanker-level defenses. That helps ensure the Tanker's dominance in his role...Tanking. On the flip side, there is no way that a Tanker can get Scrapper level damage while maintaining his defenses. Sure, he can strip out his defenses and slot for damage but why would he want to? Again, the Scrapper can slot heavier for defense and approach Tank status but then his damage will suffer.
Extending this to non-melee types keeps it fair. A Blaster can slot to be a full-on damage output machine but he'll be the literal glass cannon. Slotting for defenses means less offense. Each player will find the mix of offense and defense that they are comfortable with. The same goes for any AT.
Yes, there will be a huge melting pot of builds in the middle of the pile this way but there will also be enough choice to (I hope) keep players happy. If you're willing to sacrifice one slot from your AoE Hold in order to be just a little tougher then you can. As with CoH people who team exclusively will be better able to tailor their characters and specialize. If your Tank never solos then damage output is less of a concern for you and you slot heavier for defense. Yes, that tends to lock you into that role but it's your choice to do so. Or you can slot lighter on defense, heavier on offense and hope your buddy the Controller doesn't show up late because you REALLY like his shields.
Of course this is only the roughest idea sketched on a napkin but why not use the slots themselves as a form of point system to determine how well our toons do or do not do something?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
That seems like a good way to view it, Comicsluvr. Slots are 'points'.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I am in favor of mobile combat.
There is however a movement speed penalty for ranged casts. If a cast has a 10m distance then the character's movement speed is reduced 25% while casting. If If a cast has a 30m range then it enjoys a 75% movement reduction. Any 50m attacks (long range) are rooted.
Melee DPS enjoy full movement (and a close the gap mechanic)
in THIS model Crowd Controllers ability to slow, root, and eventually incapacitate an enemy has much more usefulness. And we all know the only reason I bring this up is because Crowd Control needs to have a REAL USE in combat. If there's a super speeder who has a very fast movement speed.. it may be up to the controller to keep that enemy slowed down.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I thought about this idea, too, that ranged attackers could be Slowed, if attacking on the run. But then I thought about one of my favorite characters and how he used 'ranged' attacks at 'melee' distances, to avoid having to have multiple 'sets' of powers for each range. And I would hate to be slowed in melee combat.
Frankly, I hate it (in another game) when I'm running to catch up with my group and they start fighting, which suddenly nerfs my movement speed, so I can't catch up.
So I'm against any movement penalties at all.
As for Crowd Control, in CoH Controllers were incredibly useful. I'm astonished at the thought of anyone with significant City experience being unaware of that. Crowd Control in the City was a lot more effective than in any other game I've played. Crowd Control effects lasted whole Minutes, rather than the paltry few seconds that is prevalent in other games. A City Controller could utterly Lock Down a dozen enemy at a time and keep them there for a significant period.
Of course, when the time ran out, it might be (days!) several minutes before that power could be used again. Also, higher threat enemies might have significant resistance to control powers, requiring stronger layers of 'mez' to hold them.
But let it not be said that crowd control powers did not have 'Real Use in combat', in City of Heroes.
Be Well!
Fireheart
If you want to move faster when casting then invest in more +movementspeed.
Being a fast moving ranged attacker SHOULD by all means be harder to do and there should be a trade-off for it.. otherwise it's all everyone will do.
And CC in CoH was all about "stunning" the enemy into being completely incapacitated.. the slows and roots were useless because the combat wasn't mobile in the first place.
For people (like myself) who want a tiered CC system (where stuns aren't automatic but instead are a status effect that is EARNED by quality of mez effects and not just binary) I want to cast a slow and have it mean something in combat.. for this to happen there has to be a purpose of why having slower enemies is actually beneficial. This did not exist in CoH.
Also *and yes I am the largest proponent of Crowd Control in MMOs i know* I do not want casts that take days to recharge and that automatically lock down a mob for minutes. The average battle time to me is 15 seconds per mob.. more when in larger teams because of aggro range. I don't need to lock anything down for more than 10 seconds (players included) in this scenario.
CC was very potent in CoX but this caused a backlash against the entire genre of CC because the magnitude of holds never mattered and it was always either "Overpowered" or "Useless".
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Like I said, my system wouldn't work for what they've said are their intentions for CoT. I don't think my idea would work with that, as there were other things as well, why I would go point system.
My one problem with you suggestion is various values for various ATs. I HATED that about CoH. One, it didn't make sense to me. Tanker gets better resist numbers because they're a Tanker? Blaster should get better Resist numbers on the Power/Epic Pools because Tankers had enough and didn't need to slot for that more.
I'd like all the Epic/Power Pool equivalents to be equal across the board for everyone. Also, like you, i'd like a straight up +% rather than deal with diminishing returns.
Having played a Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker, I beg to differ on the point that Slows were useless. As with so many things in the City of Heroes Mez Mechanics, you needed to essentially "bury the needle" in order to make Mez Effects consistently useful ... and Slows were no exception. Slows capped out at 75% Slow, which essentially meant a -75% Movement Speed Debuff and a -75% Recharge Speed Debuff, which basically made Powers take 4x longer to recharge. These dynamics essentially explained why [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Tanker_Defense.Ice_Armor.Chilling_Embrace]Chilling Embrace[/url] was so valuable to an Ice/* Tanker, because it not only Taunted Foe NPCs, it also made it hard for them to Run Away while also doing some pretty decent debuffing on their recharge speeds. Net effect ... Ice/* Tankers are best used in "flypaper" mode drawing Foe NPCs into PBAoE range to slow them down and make them "stick" to the Tanker so they can't get away (easily).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I don't believe that SW:TOR or TSW penalize ranged attacker's movement speed. Yes, there are some roots on powers that it makes sense for it to root you. But the basic attacks don't slow you down, even if you're using an assault rifle. If I'm not mistaken that is.
My friends main was an ice blaster, and he was amazing in pvp and was able to do every single new content and task force on the hardest setting with relative ease. There were a lot of power sets that were great that people thought were bad. Like my choice of martial arts and super reflexes, for the longest time people told me that build is awful, yet I rarely died in task forces and I almost never lost in 1v1 pvp. The only time I lost, was every once in awhile to brutes, and once some how to this defender that slowed me to death..... You know, since slows are so bad.....
XD
Many of the Slow, Immob and Hold systems included -Recharge which meant less enemy shots coming in. If you had 'reticule' powers (like any of the 'Rain' series) the enemy tended to move out of them so sticking them in place helped there too.
Ice sets were often undervalued because they didn't have the DoT of Fire and fewer 'WOW' FX. I had an Ice Tank and an Ice Blaster and loved them both.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Ice Tanker was undervalued because it's agro management was not as hot as people said. I recall my level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker, both auras running, using Taunt and attacking, was losing agro constantly to the DPSers. :p It's ugly armor (something CO does better than CoH did) didn't help at all.
Funny ... I never had that problem with my Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker, Shirayukihime. In fact, on an ITF run on Virtue on a Tanker Tuesday, I left all the other Tankers "crying" because they couldn't pull aggro from me because I was "hogging" all the aggro. Now admittedly, that's hardly an apples to apples comparison, since few people could legitimately accuse Tankers of being wildly overpowered in the DPS department ... but still ... if even [i]other Tankers[/i] can't pull aggro off me, I figure I'm doing it pretty much right.
After that experience on Tanker Tuesday, every group I joined with Shirayukihime I handed out a warning to:
"I inhale aggro like a wind tunnel."
The only times I lost aggro on teams were typically the times when I'd get (un)lucky double/triple hit through my Defenses and faceplant.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Perhaps this would be an easier way for people to conceptualize the hybrid combat system that Tabula Rasa used for anyone who never got to play the game.
Tab Lock to toggle on/off built in [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5jjhAG1ZMQ&t=80]Aim Bot[/url] functionality on Foe NPC behind Target Reticle (in 3rd person shooter terms).
Put the Target Reticle (at the center of your screen) on your target and you can hit TAB in order to Lock On Target and the game will Aim Bot for you to hit your target so long as your target is still on screen.
The interesting thing for me, playing that system as as Spy using melee attacks, was that at melee range the Tab Lock function basically became superfluous. Sure, I could use it, but there was no real/meaningful advantage to doing so, since melee combat (with a [url=http://tabularasa.wikia.com/wiki/Blade]Blade[/url]) was usually so fast (1-3 hits usually took out most trash mobs, much like Scrappers vs Minions). The hit boxes of Foe NPCs at melee range were plenty large enough that being able to hit them with melee attacks was more a question of getting close enough (range) than it was one of steering (camera/angle control), making the Tab Lock a step that simply wasn't all that necessary for melee, whereas it was vital for ranged attacks (particularly when shooting from the edge of weapon range with single target attacks and target AoE attacks).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
So, how did that system handle targeting in Melee?
CO has the setting/option for melee attacks to hit enemy in front of the character, in melee range, regardless of where the 'tab-locked' target is. It's a cheap sort of melee-cone.
Is that how a hybrid active system could work for us?
Be Well!
Fireheart
Short answer is, Fireheart ... the same way the system handled ranged combat without a Tab Lock On Target. Of course, sometimes the best way to explain is to just [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDZRz75z3eQ]roll film[/url] so you can see what it looked like (in a team context, no less!). This time I managed to find a 720p HD video of a Spy using a Blade (that would be the sword-like weapon). You'll see that sometimes the player is using the Tab Lock On Target ... and sometimes they just don't bother (because they don't need to). Incidentally, Spies (the only class that could use Blades) got a massive damage buff when attacking targets from behind (basically, backstab mechanics) which is why they could typically dispose of trash mobs in 1-2 hits from behind usually, hence why the Spy is often maneuvering for a back shot on target.
Here's another 720p HD video of a Spy running around using their Blade on [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGUR026Sa18]everything in sight[/url] (until backstabbing a Linker Foe NPC who was in Damage Reflect mode when hit, which killed the Spy in a one shot suicide). This video perhaps ought to give you a better "feel" for what playing a Melee Class using the Tabula Rasa gameplay and UI system is like.
And while I was looking around for videos of Tabula Rasa gameplay ... I stumbled across what may very well be the first [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7yQDNcap1Q]fan made music video[/url] released by Dis like a month after the game went live. It features the Guardian class, which used [url=http://tabularasa.wikia.com/wiki/Staff]Staves[/url] that could melee and shoot out to Pistol ranges (you can see mostly shooting in this video, but the occasional melee smackies get delivered too). Difference is that this video was shot with the UI elements turned off. For people like myself, Lin Chiao Feng, and I'm sure, Gangrel, watching this particular video brings on feelings of nostalgia comparable to any Samuraiko video.
Here's another [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdL7AGMro7Y]gameplay video[/url] of a Guardian using a Staff (this time with UI visible) demonstrating how the hybrid gameplay does not adversely affect melee combat even when using a weapon that has both melee AND ranged attacks built into it (which I presume would be considered Assault in City of Titans parlance). The Guardian starts off the fight by putting up their Reflection Aura which partially reflects incoming damage (not all, but a lot of it). Something else you'll be able to see clearly in this video is how the UI "informs" the Player as to which direction they're taking fire FROM ... and how much COVER they have against attacks coming from that source. This appears on the target reticle as bands of color that pulse inwards when the character is hit by enemy fire, with "up" being forward and "down" being behind, so that when you get shot at you know where the attacks are coming from (and can orient yourself appropriately to meet the threat). Yellow color means a good amount of Cover against the attack (so partial obscurement reducing damage) while Red color means no Cover against the attack (meaning you're taking full damage). At around the 1:20 mark you'll even get to see the Guardian do something that a lot of City of Heroes Tankers would be familiar with ... breaking Line of Sight so as to achieve a "corner pull" to get the Foe NPCs to give chase and cluster up (ie. classic herding tactics when soloing).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Did I answer your question, Fireheart, or did you just lose interest in this topic?
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Frankly. I could not see any targeting mechanism in those videos. It Looks like the guy was just swinging his stick and if there was an enemy in range, it got whacked. His enemies seemed pretty slow and stupid. I noticed the 'pulling' maneuver.
One thing that I didn't see and wanted to, was a sense of being able to pick one target out of the melee and make sure That one went down first.
Clearly, I don't know what to look for, so I was unable to appreciate what you were trying to show.
Be Well!
Fireheart
It was there, I guess that this is a problem of "knowing what you are looking for".
The thing is that in TR, melee combat was *very* powerful in terms of damage output (in terms of Single target DPS), so it was not uncommon (especially for a spy) for normal mobs to just last a couple of hits before it was dead, especially if you had the "Rage" (damage buff) ability up and running. Combine that with "bonus damage from behind" for spies, and only the hardest *toughest* mobs would last more than 15 seconds of a spy pounding on it. Normal grunts were lucky to last more than 5 seconds (two or three attacks)...
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EfxGQtZQBM]Another Spy Youtube video[/url]
It is worth looking at the top middle of the video here, because that is where the "currently targeted/locked" mob information shows up. At about the 2:15 mark in the video, you will see him lock onto a mob, and even though *two* are very close, and overlapping, he only hits the one that he is locked onto, whilst the other gets away unharmed (until the 1st mob died and then he started work on that).
The targetting reticule is the little line triangle in the middle of the screen (just in case you missed it... on the low rez videos it can be *very* easy to miss if you dont know what you are looking for).
Basically what you're looking for is some kind of "exclusive" melee targeting then? If I lock on Target A, then any attacks I make will go exclusively to Target A, even if Target B steps in front of me and gets in the way ... that sort of thing?
I don't have datamined statistics available for corroboration, but something like a 30 degree forward cone with a range of 4 meters (max) worked perfectly fine for a Blade slice. No Target Lock was required to make such an attack hit (so long as you were close enough to connect). Although, as Gangrel points out, if you used the Target Lock you could exclusively hit a single desired target in a crowd.
Net result is that using City of Heroes parlance, melee attacks were technically cone attacks that did not require a target lock. Weapons such as the [url=http://tabularasa.wikia.com/wiki/Shotgun]Shotgun[/url] used the exact same No Target Lock Shooting method as 20 meter cone attacks. Single target ranged attack weapons such as a [url=http://tabularasa.wikia.com/wiki/Rifle]Rifle[/url] did not have to use the "aimbot" functionality of the Tab To Target Lock, because it WAS possible to aim manually (although there was no "benefit" to doing so), but often did because it was easier and there was no penalty for using Tab Lock. Likewise, target AoE ranged attacks such as the [url=http://tabularasa.wikia.com/wiki/Rocket_Launcher]Rocket Launcher[/url] worked just like how the Rifle did as far as determining where the "shot" went, and then on impact (which did damage) there would be an AoE explosion of splash damage (which would do additional damage). You could thus use the Rocket Launcher to "shoot around corners" using the splash damage only if you were willing to waste the impact damage on a wall or other terrain feature.
The important thing that I wanted you to be able to take away from those videos is that it is perfectly possible to have a UI target design that is explicitly meant for ranged (ie. Rifle) combat and have it "work" just fine in melee combat as well, no problem ... which was basically the heart of your question (or so I thought). Indeed, the amount of adaptation needed on the part of the Player between using the Tabula Rasa system for ranged and melee is that melee tends to be "faster" (because of movement and positioning) and in a lot of cases tends to be "quicker" in the sense that in melee you just simply dispense with some of the steps you take when engaging targets at range (and this is the voice of personal experience here). When you don't need to Tab Lock in order to hit your targets with your weapon, you stop trying to Tab Lock in order to hit things all the time, improving your reaction speeds and shortening your decision loops. So in that respect, melee was "simpler" on target acquisition (no need to Tab Lock) and more "complex" on movement and positioning (get into melee range and stay there instead of Crouching for a kneel and deliver shooting style in a firing line).
The way to make sure that your desired target went down using melee was to focus the Player onto the desired Target, rather than letting the computer do all the work for you. So face what you want to hit and let your weapon start doing the Snicker Snack, which was actually not all that hard to do.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I enjoyed the rocket launcher... especially when you free aimed it so that it landed inbetween a *group* of mobs, so that you could hit more. Instead of the normal "tab locking" onto a mob and possibly missing out on not hitting some of them....
(Then again, I made plenty of use just using pistols and shrapnel ability on my spy as well)
IIRC, Rooting was the case that exemplified the slide from "We won't make PvE changes for PvP reasons" to "We won't make PvE changes for [i]purely[/i] PvP reasons" to "We'll [b]try[/b] not to make PvE changes for purely PvP reasons", and then just not commenting on whether a PvE change was made for PvP or PvE reasons. It was purely a PvP issue; the NPC mobs could aggro and hit back with melee attacks in the instant you blew past them, even if your movement ended a hundred meters away, but in PvP the extra turnaround of having to send your movement to your opponent's client, and their reaction time, let you get out of range of their riposte before they could trigger it, making jousting a viable tactic. On the other hand, if their joust started far enough away that you could queue up an attack before they got to you, then your return attack was controlled by the server, and it would go off when they came within range, giving you the same effect as if you were an NPC.
Actually, I'm Not looking for exclusivity, just focus. More 'don't let him get away' than 'only hit one target'. And I might not have been clear, but I LIKE the idea that any goons that get in the way of my strikes at *target* are going to take damage. I approve of the setting in CO that allows this. As you say, technically melee-cone-attacks, or it could be called 'splash-damage'.
Coming from EQ1 and playing a Tanker in City, I'm accustomed to side-slipping, or crossing through/over a target in melee, for tactical and strategic advantage. I get seriously irked at games that don't support a movement-scheme that makes such movement easy. I generally have my Targeting (nearest-next-next style) and Movement and some basic camera tilt mapped to the NumPad.
In City, there were a number of Cone attacks that did not require targeting. They could be a blessing and a curse - A curse because they often had Knock-back baked in and you could accidentally cause problems. A blessing because one did not have to bother with targeting and could simply holler 'get away from me!' and sweep your front-facing clear.
As useful as that was, I'd Like to see some form of active targeting present in such things. I'd like to see those cones sweep the front-facing, but do so in the Direction of any locked target. I'd like to see some hinting for what an AoE will affect. In City, Experience could usually predict what an attack would cover, but it might be nice to have a better guide.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Ok, I think that this is where wires are getting crossed here.
TR *didnt* have a "focus window" like in WoW. Then again, CoX didnt have it either.
There were cone attacks in TR, but they were *not* available to the melee weapons. Which is what I think you were looking for, although there were abilities and other stuff out there that allowed it.
I think that the "wildstar" system could work well here... were tab targetting for the "quick lock/aim" but allowing you to fine tune with a mouse could be done as well.
It would be nice as well to actually have an overlay (call it a telegraph) so that you know *where* you are aiming the attack. I know that in CoX I sometimes thought i was going in one direction, but the cone went in a different direction.... because I was locked onto the wrong mob.
What I like in CoH and didn't see it in most games (can't remember if CO works similar or not) that my characters point of view was locking on target. I didn't need to turn around just to find my targt since whenever I used a power my character will automatically turn to my targets bearing and in he most chaotic places as a melee character it was very helpful to enjoy game (rikti mothership raids for example) I just press F to auto follow my target and when get close enough start my attack chain. I was not even bothered by knockback much because of this simple setup as long as I can get similar feeling I don't mind any changes at all (In fact I was playing a katana/sr scrapper and my main attack chain had two cone powers so it can be said I am accustomed with hitting anything foolish enough to get between me and my target.)
I loved this about CoX also and hope CoT will have it. Since CoX was my first MMO, I was sadly disappointed when I tried others and discovered it was not there. Combine this with the fact that some games won't target enemies behind you, and I found myself sometimes spending more time on positioning than on actually using my powers.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Actually, I was talking about two different things, there.
One was melee psuedo-cones, where attacks aimed at a melee-target would also damage enemies that pushed into the 'path' of the attack. And/or, melee-range enemies could be attacked and damaged, even is the target was out of range. I wanted to be able to focus melee attacks on a target, regardless if they ducked behind another enemy, and not have my 'tageting' confused by new enemies.
Then I was addressing the targeting behavior of traditional ranged-cone attacks. I was speculating on how I might like to see them behave. Your mention of the 'overlay' or 'telegraph' of your own attacks covers part of that.
Be Well!
Fireheart
TR did this for melee, it was all based on if you had a target locked or not
Lock the target, all attacks go to that mob, dont lock the target, then it hits whatever is at the front.
This is how I would like it, because it allows you to fine tune it a bit more,
Apologies for the necro-post, but I just had a panic attack over the thought that CoT combat would have dodging, aiming, momentum for my toon or facing. I'd prefer to see pure tab-targeting, fast movement, and insta-stop, just like there was in CoH. If there is going to be any sort of action combat , perhaps it could be an alternative method of playing rather than the norm?
MrCaptainMan, Scoop Malloy, The Accelerated Man, Soundman, The Robot From Uranus, Tommy Atkins, The Dirty Promise, The Psystem, VEI8, Atomicide, Tumbleweed Jackson, Robin Copperfield, Ragtime Smith, Jacque Le Black, Tarquin Wilde...and many more.
The devs have repeatedly stated that there will be no twitch combat, so no worries there. There may well be more cases where the player needs to be pro-/reactive, or can gain some advantages from being so, but it will not be like Tera or Wildstar. Although it's not related to combat, I thought I'd also point out that I rather liked the momentum/sliding effect from flight.
- - - - -
[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Agreed. Landing felt right also.
Spurn all ye kindle.
My main was a flyer, and I used a rather cool keybind setup which automatically switched to hover whenever I let go of any movement keys. That was great for flying combat.
The momentum in CO is awful.
MrCaptainMan, Scoop Malloy, The Accelerated Man, Soundman, The Robot From Uranus, Tommy Atkins, The Dirty Promise, The Psystem, VEI8, Atomicide, Tumbleweed Jackson, Robin Copperfield, Ragtime Smith, Jacque Le Black, Tarquin Wilde...and many more.
Agreed. Especially when the only way to slow down (as opposed to just stopping) is to turn off your travel power. Not practical when flying over a bay full of rioting supervillains...
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
.
Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]