In CoX, they had mission maps that re-used many of the same rooms, lock, stock, and barrel, just in different combinations.
What if you could have the game software build a room by taking take a blank room and randomly adding different objects to it in various places thus making the standard square or rectangular room have say, a couple dozen different possible pieces of decoration or furniture in them? So instead of the layer-cake cave room always being exactly the same every time, you have different rocks and puddles and so forth in different places. Warehouse maps could have piles of crates, barrels, cylinders of gasses and welding supplies, big generators, etc placed in various areas.
Is that possible? Would it save any time compared to painstakingly making a bunch of different rooms that looked somewhat random in terms of furniture?
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I'm sure it's possible but as with any proceduraly generated content making the algorithm is a huge undertaking. If it saves time depends on how many different "versions" they would make and exactly how flexible the algorithm is, like just having to tell it theme, "purpose"/type and size.
At launch I'm doubtful it would save time/money but in the long run I think it would, since when they add more room assets they only need to add "configs" rather than crafting rooms from them.
This could then go into proceduraly generated maps, in that it uses the rooms as building blocks.
Okay. I was just thinking that f you have enough stock furniture assets available already from U4, then you could save a lot of time and energy by avoiding setting up a bunch of specifoic rooms down to the last detail. Some rooms, like special boss rooms etc (the rooms that have columns in them, from DnD, if you get my meaning) probably should still be that way. Also, with procedurally made rooms, no two bland offices look alike, one hopes.
Of course, once you make one room that "works" of a given size, you could probably just rearrange a lot of the stuff in it and make a myriad of different variants on the same room, just by moving the various objects around, inverting the room left-to-right to make a mirror image, changing the color schemes, etc.
Edit: But I'm not a programmer.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I'm all for anything that can break up the same old same old of the mission maps if it's done well.
STO did something kind of like what you're describing in their procedurally-generated exploration missions (their version of radio/newspaper missions) and the results were often comical and sometimes immersion-breaking.
Consoles would be turned facing a wall or two would be facing each other with no room in between or would show up in the middle of a cavern with no obvious use.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
From my understanding when making procedural content the work on the assets is fairly small and most of it is in making the algorithm, especially in constraining it so the results "make sense".
Extra Credits to the rescue again.
[youtube]TgbuWfGeG2o[/youtube]
Maybe it would be easier, if you have the assets, the let the humans actually do the work of the algorithm. Give some people the task of making as many different rooms as they can out of the desks, chairs, crates, etc that they have as assets for, within what they think is reasonable placement and use of those assets. So like you're still using specific rooms in maps, but instead of the one layercake room that's always the same, you might have a dozen or so minor variations on it with some holes plugged here and there or some other stuff added, removed, or rearranged, etc. Then when the map gets generated, instead of randomly putting "layercake" into the map, it randomizes and lands on "layercake05" or "layercake03" etc.
Because I mean, some of the rooms in CoX were IDENTICAL every time you saw them, especially some of the smaller ones. And if you were a designer of rooms, you could have probably taken those rooms, as they were, and just moved stuff around to make them different looking.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Conversely have a designer spend even just one hour decorating the interior of every map in the game is more efficient than having them spend even a month or two refining an algorithm? If the game is anything at all like COH, there will be hundreds of missions and each of those missions may require a few different maps to accommodate different sized teams. If each map is decorated by hand in a logical and unique (IE I don't want to put the cubicles facing this direction in this room because I did that in the last three maps) you are looking at hundreds or thousands of man hours. For reference 1000 man hours is half a year working 40hrs/week with some vacation time. And that person is also working a 9to5 because they are a volunteer. This seems like a perfect place to use procedurally generated content. Furthermore for each map if decorated by hand you then have a large table that says "chair here, plant here, desk here, printer here, coffee cup here, sink here, etc." which would all have to be stored somewhere on the game servers. While the tables might be small in terms of KBs when multiplied by the number of maps they could quickly grow to be something of a problem.
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You could also crowd source it. You could make a website called "Twitch plays Interior Decoration" and have people enter commands and design rooms like that. Or you could do it the boring way and let people design rooms using set size and shape templates with set furniture options, after signing a waiver that everything the make is free for the game to use as much as MWM wants.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Not as easy as that, considering it is what we're doing at this moment as volunteers and there was plenty spent on legal services in order to get our documents in order. The more you invite, the more you have to track as to who is doing what, particularly when you want things done within certian time limits. If we just "crowd source" you need a way to consistantly communicate with everyone (and just inviting every single person into our dev chats would be nightmarish). That's just the tip of the iceberg.
Now when we've established the company with the game service running, there are more legal hassles involved in bringing on others. Now there was one example of a game (not an online game mind you) that actually had a group of volunteer players building assets, but these players were in a concentrated area geophraphically, self-organized, and had a solid chain of command, channel of communication with the game company, and operated with a pipeline process for design. It was the outlier when many other methods are much more chaotic and prone to problems of multiple sorts.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
A dedicated MWM Asset Store reviewer? :D
- Be able to review 10 or more submissions a day.
- MWM can charge 10%-20% commision on any sales.
..Or give the Submission Developer an option to get Stars instead. ;)
Of course, this is for easy assets that might take less than a week to make, and cost $1 to $2. :)
Payouts to Asset Developers can be made after accruing $10 - $20, on a month to month basis. Keepin credit card transactions low.
edit: and perhaps a very small upfront cost to publish (for each submission) to the assets store? 50 cents to $3, depending on category, type, etc?
just to dissuade pranks from rival game trolls.
Players can earn in game credits by using a mission creator and designing rooms for pop up missions. The rooms would be saved and you would have thousands of combinations in a few weeks.
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Once the game is up and running, couldn't MWM just lay claim to all room designs everyone might come up in the UGC controls as "theirs" with language to that effect in the EULA and like NOT have to pay everyone for making new room designs? Assuming they have the legal right to do that, then anyone who makes a room for any reason might see "their" design used later on if it gets added to the pool of rooms that procedurally generated maps might use. If MWM does want to be a little nicer to people than that and actually give people some Stars when they decide to use the player's designs, that's fine by me too.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Technically all assets used in a ugc system belongs to the original content provider - the company. However things become "dicey" if a company wants to use specific user made designs in further or additional development. Compensation of any sort adds layers to the legal and financial quafmire that opens up. This kind of stuff was discussed long ago that while it is possible to set up, it has to be done by region / country, maintaining who did what, from where they originated, the compensation methods, and all the financial back end work is far too complicated, time consuming, and financially draining (between maintaining legal representation for up to possibly nternational law and added burden o finance dept) to be worth it.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Start Small. Just U.S. at the beginning, then others if its financially appealing enough? :)
Or, open it up to a pool of Basebuilding volunteers, with the explicit purpose of testing the Basebuilding App and collecting pre-made rooms for further development. Recruit from the forums, here. You may get a bunch of 'junk', I guess... But I do know that the Basebuilding community has a lot of talent. Perhaps have a method of sharing finished submissions.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Procedural generation using fully detailed rooms is old tech. New tech is various room sizes, pick a theme, fill from the right asset packs. The rest, as stated above, is adjusting the algorithms to get sensible results. That is the plan. I should know, I'm the guy with the Bachelors in Interior Architecture, I'm very much a part of such plans.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]