Several threads have gotten a bit sidetracked talking about this subject and I'll admit to playing no small part in that. I'm sorry, I never meant to hijack anyone's conversation. it's just that this does affect a lot of different aspects of the game.
Should we have levels?
I think that has already been decided and while I think we would be better off without them I don't really want to make everyone mad at me so I accept it. But the real question is just how much will or should levels matter?
I'm hoping some Devs will chime in early to give us insight on what is already set and what is still up for discussion.
Since as you know I don't like levels, I'm obviously going to be on the side of making them, matter as little as possible. I accept them as a necessary evil but when they matter more than necessary that makes them just plane evil. I'm a Paladin, I fight evil.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I would prefer a levelless skill-based system where you improve your skills by using them, just like in the real world.
The game would still need a system to rate how tough a character or an NPC was, though.
There's that word again...
OP - For everyone's benefit, and for promoting a focused (I know, I know) discussion, please describe this "problem" as you see it.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/26pBVBG.png[/img]
([i]Currently developing the Sapphire 7 Initiative[/i])
The problem with not having levels is, as someone else has mentioned before, you'll still find people coming up with ways to rate what level your character is. This will be based off of Gear, Skill points, Attack Rating, or some other arbitrary number.
I'm not sure I really understand your intense hatred of levels. D&D has used levels since it's creation.
You just can't not have some kind of measurement to determine how good or bad your character is.
Is it because you feel like it breaks your immersion into your character? If that is the case, then you have the ongoing debate of Reality vs. Fantasy where one person's opinion will always differ from the next.
I'd rather keep a level system, because I have experienced games where your level is based off of what kind of gear you have and that is extremely annoying. I may not like having certain gear that gets me a certain gear rating because it's stats aren't what I need, or I don't like the look of that particular set of gear. If it's based off of Skill points in a particular skill that is annoying too. What if I decided to make my character more well rounded by assigning points to all of the skills instead of one particular skill that everybody deems is necessary to win the game?
And you are going to hate me for saying this, but once again sometimes things work better on a Pen and Paper set up then they do in a computer generated game or console game. It is always easier for a DM or a GM to manipulate things in such a way that things work. Computers are confined to the rules they are programmed with. Until Artificial Intelligence can become just that then computers will always be limited.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
(Disclaimer! This is my personal opinion. It has no bearing on actual design choices.)
I'm not a fan of levels either, but I will say that I prefer them to weirder things like the above. I was playing the Secret World some time back, which boasts a "level-less" or "non-traditional" level system (or something). I can't remember the exact phrasing, but the basic gist that myself and lots of other people received was "levels don't matter! You just get more skills as you get XP!" Which seemed great!
Then I found out the hard way that that wasn't the case when I tried to move on from the starter zone. I got super wrecked. Turns out that something equating to "level" is calculated internally based on how good your skills are, and what gear and weapons you currently have equipped. Kind-of a nasty surprise.
That's not to say that having a level-less MMO is impossible; you could give everyone the same set of stat-points that they balance as they want but never get more of, and have them slot-in more skills as they want them, for example. Though, even then, getting new skills is a staple of leveling, so unless you gave everyone everything they wanted at character-creation, the Ghost of Leveling would still be present.
There's also the fact that lots of people (read: Not Me Ever) enjoy leveling, because it gives them a sense of progress and a reason to play the game. In every MMO you'll find the proud people who say things like "I've got ten level 50's! Come at me bro!" Those people will also use the argument that leveling provides a much-needed knowledge gap for harder content. If you sit at your computer leveling for hours, even if you're just doing the same few instances over and over, you're going to end up with at least a little more knowledge as to how the game and your character works compared to someone who loads into a level-less game and immediately wants to raid.
I'd love to find a way to make a level-less system work, because I am lazy and do not like to grind. But I don't think that the majority of the potential player-base would really want something like that, or if it could be done in a way that isn't entirely superficial.
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team[/color]
Just like we assume that someones AGE means they know Better (have more [b]EXP[/b]erience)? ;D
The problem with levels is that, in order to not have levels, this would have to be a completely different sort of game... and not much like CoH.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I'm with Catherine America. Despite the topic's title, there is no explanation of what the problem with levels may be (beyond "I don't like them") nor is there any proposed solution. Without those this looks like it is meant to be a "me too!" thread.
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Third on this.
I just don't think a truly level-less experience is possible. Experience accumulates, then something has to happen with it. Usually you get experience and ding, though we talk about experience in a difference "With his experience in blah." "He was an experienced blabla." "Your experience will be valuable to the company Mr Labla." We know Age=/=better, and then also that some experience is more valuable than others.
And issue is that accumulating experience is supposed to feel like it amounts to something, while just getting older won't help you get stronger, the only way it could work is if instead of a level, you spent your experience to buy abilities. However, I doubt this could or would be the case with other information we already have, even in the pre-alpha stage. Still pre-alpha right? o.o
I've posted in another thread on this.
Since there will always be gradients of difficulty in a game--or at least there should be, even levels of difficulty across the board with no progression seems like it would be unworkable, or at least no fun--you might as well do it on purpose and measure and control it. Otherwise, it'll happen anyway in a less well thought-out way.
I was anti-level until I played TSW. And they didn't do a bad job at all and it's not that it's not doable, it's just not as good as going ahead and admitting there are levels. Definitely not an improvement--which surprised me.
I'll take a stab at answering what the "problem" is.
There are no obvious marked levels of "power" in life, comic books, or movies, so it seems counter-intuitive and unrealistic to the point of being immersion-breaking that there are fixed, set "levels" in a game.
Also, levels spin off other problems such as level-capped zones and content and such, as well as teaming etc.--though CoH solved that last one.
Now, to answer the problem. These problems created by leveled content are real, but since content SHOULD always have some variety in difficulty for progression, not marking the levels doesn't solve them in the slightest. In fact, it makes them worse.
Also, an MMORPG isn't real life, a comic book, or a movie, and has different needs and requirements to work, one of which is gradients of power and difficulty to progress through. I don't think anyone would attempt to argue that all content should be the same level of difficulty.
So, yes, having clearly marked levels is problematic, but not quite as problematic as not having them.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I think of Levels in most RPG's more like "Personal Milestones." Like I've trained and practiced long enough that now I can do *this*. Since we're not having Gear Based Stats according to the Devs, and since CoH was all about the levels then this all seems to be fairly well in hand.
Besides, you could easily make the argument that going for the next Level is part of the excitement, and therefore part of the fun, of playing in the first place. I know the OP doesn't see it that way, and levels certainly aren't a reaslistic/real-life way of gaining skills. But hey, it's a game, and games have parameters and rules and conventions within which you play.
Well, stepping away from CoT and maybe mmos in general, Square is rather notorious for making semi-level systems in their single player RPGs. Off the top of my head, there's ffx and the sphere grid which kind of ignores levels and exchanges them for "movement on the grid" that buys you stats and skills. One could say there are still levels there, but they aren't wholly connected in that levels = power. It's what you purchase on the grid that matters.
Then there's ffxii which had the more applicablely named "license grid" where you get points to buy licenses with the 'exp' you get from kills.
There's was also chrono cross which did have levels called star levels, but you didn't get star levels from defeating random enemies, you got them from defeating the story boss but once you defeated that boss, it was dead so it's not like you could beat the same one to get more stars. Then why fight random battles? You get random-ish start boosts every now and then until you plateaued for your star level. You could say that then levels were there but again they don't matter because it was impossible to face bosses in such a way that you couldn't win for your star level. Basically you leveled up by the content progressing.
One of the biggest problems of a level based system is what to do with max level characters.
CoH was running into this problem.
Different level based games have tried different approaches. WoW for example switches from level based to gear based upon level capping. CoH for years handled it for years by not handling it... people either left or rerolled.
Switching systems at level cap essentially means that the majority of your characters playtime is spent in this new system and not in the proposed superior level based system...... which is where I think the important issues lie.
I like the Diablo 2 solution... make an arbitrarily high level cap, then make the levels geometrically longer to increase, so people (outside of bots and 24/7 team played cbaracters) never really level cap.
I'd like to hear exactly what Paladin dislikes about levels and why he thinks they are a problem myself. Whether it's levels, skills points or just XP, there will be a gradient that distinguishes one character's experience and power from another's.
MWM has stated that the end game is in alting. How that is going to work exactly I do not know. But reaching level cap isn't the end of the game to CoT according to the Devs. Until we know more about that though I can't really speculate too much about it.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Well, ok, but,
So you end up with a system for 1 to 40 where you gain say 10% more power each level. At level 40 you're what, 4x, 5x, maybe 6x as powerful as level 1, but only 10 percent more powerful than level 39. Add in meaningful power increases for end game and you'll eventually have massive power differences between level 40s. Sounds manageable untill you consider an expansion pack where the level cap is increased... or is it increased? Where does level 41 start, at a fresh level 40 or one with maxed out progression? 'Statflation' was one of the progressively worsenning issues Blizzard ended up with... level 80 characters that were many many times more powerful than level 70... rinse and repeat for 85, 90, 100 and you have some insane scaling issues.
I understand the benifits of a level based system to a fresh game though... it lets developers divide and conquer manageable portions of content so they can actually bring the turkey to the table.
Someone asked for the 'problem' to be stated, I'm just laying it out there. Level based systems are fine when you're inside that level spread. In a persistant online world people wont stay there though. If the solution to maxed characters isnt as good as the levelling portion will people stick around? If the solution is better why not start there?
In regards to CoH, the benefit to leveling was unlocking more enhancement slots and access to new powers from your power choices, power pools, or epic power pools. Your Accuracy, Endurance usage, Recharge, Damage, etc. were influenced by the enhancements you put in them, otherwise they were a base stat from beginning to end. Once they started introducing Incarnate abilities for End Game Content you couldn't enhance those, you were stuck with what they could do upon design. So in CoH's case if they would have followed WoW's design they would have had to make more powers and keep giving enhancement slots to add to those powers.
I never had a problem with CoH's endgame. I thought it was great. I did have a problem with WoW's endgame. I hated that once you got max level it then became a matter of grinding for specific gear to "level up".
Now, as I said, I do not know exactly what MWM plans for their endgame content. Nobody does at this moment. Not even MWM I would imagine. I'm sure they have "ideas". So to try to speculate on MWM's endgame is kind of silly to me at this point.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Levels were also linked to stats. You did more damage to lower level foes, you resisted less and we're easier to hit by higher foes, mez effects scaled as well. But yeah, enemies of your level range stayed relatively the same.
I personally like the system because it's simple. Imo keep combat somewhat simple, especially if you plan to incorporate non combat mechanics which have me truly excited.
Upon endgame, I think CoH 'star level' type system was cool. You basically complete a kind of content gate that gave access to a new power you could enhance.
If they do implement a kind of levelless system, I think it would be easier to implement ad endgame.
First of all another apology: I started this thread before going off to work and didn't put enough information in the original post.
I did however say I accept that we are going to have levels I just regard it as a necessary evil.
This thread is not supposed to be about whether or not we should have levels, but about how to deal with the problems that levels cause in the game.
Also It's NOT that I don't want character's compared to each other, that's not a problem at all.
So now let me take time to say just what problems I'm talking about.
1) If you make a hero who fights street crime, then when he levels up to the point that street crime doesn't challenge him any more, he stops being what he was made to be. It ruins the character and we've all had characters who after a certain level stopped making sense.
2) On the other hand if you want to make a cosmic hero who fights aliens and giant monsters...sorry he has to fight street crime for 30 levels before he can be the character you wanted to make.
3) Doling out specific types of powers at specific levels seriously interferes with making the kind of character you want. I wanted to make a super speedster in COH and for him the character creation process lasted until he got a travel power at like 10th level if I remember right. They made it easier to get it later on but he still couldn't have started out as what I wanted. And you just look goofy with wings before you're high enough level to fly (hover whatever)
4) Sidekicking or exemplaring allowed you to hang out with people of vastly different levels provided you were willing to suck while you did it. It was a work around for the problem but not really a solution.
5) it creates a lot of ridiculous situations. e.g. in Champions Online, I fought off an alien invasion and then fought my way through a desert full of mutants and supervillains only to return to my hometown and find that I couldn't handle ordinary street thugs.
6) it forces me to play game content that I don't like, even though there's plenty of content I do like. I might love the stuff you do from levels 1-5 and I might be really excited about the stuff I'll get to do from levels 11-15 but what if I just can't stand the boring stupid missions or hazard zones from level 6-10 because they just don't suit the character I'm playing, but dang it that's what you do at this level cause you're not getting any rewards for the lower level stuff you liked and you'll get creamed if you try to do the higher level stuff you like.
I'm sure other's can come up with more problems but that's enough for now. Please remember I'm NOT saying we shouldn't have levels. That horse is dead and I'm not going to keep beating it. I'm hoping we can come up with solutions to these problems so that levels wont have such a negative impact on this game.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Oh yeah:
7) The benefits of leveling are often the sorts of things that should be based on the type of character and abilities you have not your level. for example:
A) having a zillion hit points is a tank thing but a high level a controller makes a low level tank look like a wimp
B) Massive damage is a Scrapper thing, but a high level defender can blast his way through stuff the low level scrapper can't scratch.
C) You want a marksman who never misses? Well your level determines your accuracy not your abilities
D) You want an agile character who dodges attacks...levels
E) You want a versatile character who has a lot of different abilities but not a lot of power? Sucks for you doesn't it?
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
1. If I recall there were still street thugs at level 50 even in CoH. The difference was that they had more powers to use than just a random thug with a baseball bat. They also had Radio and Newspaper Missions that you could run if you wanted to keep your character immersed. You could also make sure that the contacts you had were related to specific mobs that you wanted to defeat, such as The Family.
2. Everybody has to start out somewhere and work their way up. Even the super heroes in the comics fight the little guys before some cosmic world ending event comes around that they have to take on.
3. If I recall we will have travel powers from level 1 in CoT. Then as we level up we can improve those? So that should fix that problem.
4. I never felt a burden to the team when I was super sidekicked up. Granted I didn't have as many powers, but what powers I had did do damage to the enemy equal to the other team members. It sucked when we were under the old version of sidekicking and I was about 4 levels lower than the enemies and just kept whiffing most of the time and did very little damage.
5. I would like to think MWM will not make the same mistakes as some of the current MMO's out there. I don't think you'll have an issue with this one.
6. Again, MWM I'm sure is working very diligently on attempting to create content that will be appealing to everybody. Hopefully they will follow in CoH's footsteps in allowing you to choose different Contacts that will give you access to certain missions that you enjoy playing and not force you to play against villains you have no desire to play against.
I think you are putting the cart before the horse on this. MWM, from what I've read from most of the Devs, is trying very hard to make this game as enjoyable as can possibly be for as many people as they can. Will they succeed? I don't know. Perhaps. As for now, we unfortunately don't have much to go by. They are still a year(?), or more, out until they can start releasing an Alpha version. Don't be so quick to judge.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
A. Not sure how this is going to work out yet as we don't really have much to go by in regards to powers yet.
B. Blasters didn't have as much survivability as a Scrapper did. You have to make sacrifices for certain AT's. More power/Less survivable. More Survivable/Less Power.
C. Levels will not determine Accuracy. Enhancements will.
D. Same with C.
E. MWM has said they are working on having extra non combat abilities as well, so again, let's wait and see how that plays out.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
what does MWM stand for?
also what you said to B) didn't seem like a response it sounded like you were talking about something else.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
MWM = Missing Worlds Media. The creators behind CoT, City of Titans.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
In B I was making a general reference in how things went with CoH. Tank=High survivability/Low damage, Scrapper=Good survivability/Good damage, Blaster=Low Survivability/High Damage.
Now there were things one could do to change that up with Invention IO's and Power Pool powers. I could turn my Time/Dual Pistols Defender into an all out beast that could out Tank a Tank.
In regards to your example though, you have to consider the lower level Scrapper didn't have as many Defenses to layer as a Higher level Defender did. Lower levels usually translated into fewer powers with crappy to no enhancements. Higher level usually translated into a more fleshed out character with excellent enhancements.
So if you were referring to when exemped down, remember that the enhancements never went away from your top tier enhancements, they just scaled down a to fit the level. Plus you also kept +5 levels when you exemped down as well, so you usually kept a few more powers than everybody else had.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
It seems to me that people are attributing far too much importance to levels. The concept of the character level is a convenient shorthand to indicate change/improvement. As others have already pointed out, if the convenience of levels is not available then people will find some measure to compare skill, power, or whatever.
This will be the case in any game in which the character increases in power. This does mean that, eventually, the character will be fighting "street thugs" who are really far too powerful to be considered mere street thugs. The alternative is to play a character that never really changes/levels.
This is the same situation as above. One begins the game with a "complete" character that never really changes/levels. The game (relative difficulties and challenges) remains static.
As above, the desire to create a complete character that never (or very minimally) changes over the course of game play.
Sidekicking or examplaring had nothing to do with merely hanging out. This system allowed people of vastly different levels to engage in missions together without making the lower level characters completely irrelevant. Furthermore, this mechanic actually makes levels less of a concern, so it should likely fall under solutions rather than problems. Is it a preferable alternative of having the cosmic hero sweeping the streets clear of thugs, while the street crime fighter twiddles his thumbs? Should these two characters not be allowed to play together at all?
This is mostly a case of poor storytelling. One should not expect a level 1 character to save the world any more than one would expect a hero who manages to hold their own against street thugs to fight off an entire alien army. Nonetheless, yes, levels can create odd situations. Again, the alternative is to have static, unchanging characters.
This is a potential problem with the design of the game and the amount of content that is available. Even without levels any given player may be forced to play content that they do not like. Once a game has sufficient content available chances are good that everyone will be able to find a leveling path that they like. Then again, even in CoH, after eight years, there may have been people who disliked everything that was available for level 6 to 10.
Without levels every character will have to be more or less the same. In a game that allows players to play a hero who fights street crime there cannot be cosmic heroes. If this were possible, presto, instant level difference. It might not be presented as Level 5 versus Level 50, but for all intents and purposes it might as well be. So, rather than a game with levels 1 to 50 there would have to be a game for characters at, for example, level 5, a game for characters at level 20, a game for characters at level 40, and a game for characters at level 50.
One thing to keep in mind with such a level-less approach is that it cannot cater to those players who enjoy seeing their characters grow and improve (i.e., "level"). E.g. You want a game in which a master smith can teach other characters how to become smiths? That's not possible because that would indicate a level difference.
In conclusion, if one insists on comparing and contrasting the two approaches, a level-less game will have at least as many problems as a level based game.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Poor Darth Fez
You completely missed the point of every dadgum thing I said. I just don't even know how to respond.
I wasn't completely satisfied with oOStaticOo's answers but at least he understood most of the questions.
By the way, we could easily have cosmic heroes and street fighters in the game by providing different content and directing them toward it according to the paths they choose. A cosmic toon might get more power to start and find himself in a different starting place with different contacts and missions being offered. They would seldom encounter each other but that makes sense. Spider-man doesn't go into space much.
and since I do accept levels (I just want to minimize their negative impact) the street sweepers might get to join the cosmic heroes at higher levels. Captain America is in the Avengers and Batman hangs with the Justice League.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Hmm.. Sounds like it would Segregate most of the player base. :/
So why would a cosmic hero not be able to fight Street crime?
I think Darth Fez hit every nail precisely on the head.
-10 points for unjustifiable patronising snark
Spurn all ye kindle.
Then you would be wrong.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
But if the players are where they want to be, doing what they want to do why is that a problem?
Someone else asked why could't a cosmic hero fight street crime?
I don't see any reason why they couldn't but most of them don't.
Superman is about the only notable exception.
Most cosmic heroes have cosmic adventures or at least high stakes adventures against villains like Doctor Doom.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
What it sounds like to me is that Paladin's problem wasn't actually with levels, but with different levels of power, if you get my meaning.
That Daredevil, no matter how much experience he might gain, shouldn't ever go up against Ronan the Accuser and the Silver Surfer shouldn't be fighting muggers because he should start off fighting Ronan the Accuser.
To put it in a level-based system, street heroes should level from 1 to 40, and only fight level 1-40 street-level bad guys. Daredevil starts off with the level 1 mugger, end up with the level 40 archvillain Kingpin.
Meanwhile, Silver Surfer starts off fighting the level 1 Kree space fleet and ends up fighting the level 40 archvillain Galactus.
Paladin seems to want multiple games within the game. Segregated paths, depending on what kind of hero (street level, Teen Titans-esque, cosmic, etc) you've decided to have.
Paladin isnt Wrong for Wanting to fight Galactus, but he is Wrong (in Development Costs/Time/People) about how to get to that point in Time.
There needs to be a steady progression, a build up to that event. Foreplay? ;)
Most important:
- Dont Start by Segragating the Playerbase. Let them deviate a little, but always have them get back to the Shared storyline of the game. To take on Galactus, you'll STILL need to bring a Whopper of Players, and you cant do that if you Segragate most of the Playerbase. Its best to bring Everyone Along. It might take longer, but you'll get there. ;)
Reasons:
- Cost.
- Resources.
- Time.
In Project Management lingo:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/VHXJPUH.png[/img]
Behind the Scenes, MWM will do their best to Explain why in the Lore, players are revisiting same zones even as they get stronger and Stronger from all that experience gained in previous battles.
Reasons that could be used:
- Its where you would LEAST Expect to find their new hiding place.
- etc..
Once CoT is ready for Post Level Cap Lore, we can have our Incarnate stuff, BUT... instead of gaining NEW powers from a Wishing Well, its from a Syringe / Magically Enchanted Amulet / Stark Industries Tech / etc.
That means Villains you fought at lower levels can get their hands on them TOO. And you will have to go BACK to those lower levels and confiscate those Enhancers*, while revisiting the Same Missions, but with a slightly different atmosphere, be it Wall Textures, Light Colors, etc...
And as you progress from 50 to 100, even the Open world Color Tints could SEEM a little Different to you, since you are undergoing a change.
But wait, THERES MORE! ;D
if you Act Now...
... ohhh Sorry! :/
That was just Lore stuff, tech stuff would include Turning the existing powers you previously got, into Platinums* (lack for a better word). And just like getting levels 1 - 50, getting your existing Powers to Platinum* would take all of 51 - 100. Its not crafting, its just Leveling Up, and choosing an existing power to Augment to Platinum*. :)
What does getting an existing power to Platinum* really do?
Well, for starters, in the powers tray, the power looks as if it has a weee bit metallic look to it.
Functionally, each power is 2x as effective after its Platinumed*, since the enemy from level 51-100 is using Enhancers which also make them 2x more effective. (of course the enemy will be balanced, to match your Platinums, but it just assumes you have a certain number of Platinumed powers from your current level)
There could be Other benefits of turning a power Platinum*. I dont know off the top of my head, but it could use Momentum in a different way, or In Addition to, or maybe even use LESS Momentum!? So you can use Momentum More OFTEN! Etc..
Of course, the Old Enemy (1-50) thinks they are now big shots because of the Enhancers*, so there might be slight nuances to their outfits. Colors and Accessories might be slightly different, but not so much you cant recognize them as the Old enemy.
Also, you could see guest appearances of some* (not too many) Bosses you fought while 40-50, during your 51-100 levels... since some of your Contacts think the low level groups are getting their Enhancers from High level villains (these shady Alliances between some Bosses start to popup more often), but each time they find a lead, it just turns out someone Higher is behind it.
And after 100, 101-150, instead of making powers Platinum, you can step it up a notch and make powers Cosmic, and everything is 3x (or 4x) more powerful, so you can go into space (for that TF/Raid/whatever) and fight Galactus at level 150 and Save the Whole World Literally. ;)
OK Im tired now. Nap time! :{
Yeah All that put me to sleep too.
My suggestion was a lot simpler, and Mendicant hit the nail on the head.
Why does there have to be one unified story line that all of the characters are forced into?
That's a major turn off to me.
The point of making different characters is not just to do the same stuff in a different way but to do different stuff also.
And this particular story has the same problem I had with the incarnate crap in COH:
The focus shifts from fighting evil to gaining power. That sucks.
In the overwhelming majority of action adventure stories, the characters do not keep gaining power throughout the course of their career. They gain a lot of abilities early in their career and then stay pretty much the same while they use their abilities in all kinds of situations.
No matter how many adventures he has Daredevil, is never going to evolve into some godlike thing that changes who he is. And Thor was never a normal viking. He was a god from the day he was born. Heraclese killed 2 giant snakes while he was a baby, and The first day Norrid Rad got powers, he was the herald of Galactus.
Becoming a cosmic hero is NOT something you build up to. Its not something even a superhero could build up to.
But cosmic beings are superheros and supervillains so they should be in the game and players should be allowed to play that way if they want.
Another thing to remember is that most players wont give a fig about game lore. They'll bring their own characters, probably characters they've played before in other games, and they'll have their own background stories. They might be playing This game because it lets them see their hero in action on the screen, but in their heads their playing in the same world their hero comes from.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
It sucks BUT its One way for a mmo to stay in the Black! ;)
That doesnt sound like a MMO, thats more the realm of an Offline Standalone game. :P
There is no reason an MMO couldn't do this.
No, None at all.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
...Couldn't do this?
Sure it can be Done. ;)
But what I think when i see that is:
...Shouldn't do this?
And from a business perspective, I'm not sure thats a very lucrative idea. :P
An MMOs Problem seems to be, from my view, trying to keep the player playing for Years and Years and Years.
One way, as i see it, is to try and inject as much social interactions with other players to prevent boredom from creeping in as fast.
In order to do that, you have to keep other players very accessible.
What does that mean, "Keep (other) Players (very) Accessible"?
Well, let me bring up a Negative about City of Heroes/Villains and maybe this will make sense.
Hero Tips.
You're on a full team. Everyone on team has been there for the last 5 levels (an hour or so). Only one (or two) player(s) had to bail, but no worries, you easily found another guy / gal.
Everything was Gellin' ...until the Team Leader announces,
"I got a Hero Tip, Lets Do It!".
Before you know it, Majority of the team has disbanded. Funs Over!
Now, you're most likely running most of your Hero / Villain / etc.. Tips all by yourself.
And if you're not fond of SOLOing, boredom could creep in.
Allot (very few exceptions) of players find enjoyment in Social Interactions, or else they wouldn't be playing a Socially based Online Game. So something like Hero Tips should be avoided, or Limited to very short missions each day, or every other day, etc...!
Keep Players Accessible should be an Unwritten rule. ;)
Plus, to reduce boredom from creeping in too early, NEAT's can also be added.
(See [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/74415#comment-74415]Here[/url] for the very old forum post suggestion for NEAT's.)
For me and I believe an increasing number of people who play MMOs the social aspect is dead or dieing and we have no interest in reviving it. We don't want to meet strangers online.
We don't want to team up with strangers.
We don't PVP
And if we can't solo we aren't interested. That's why there's so much interest in the offline game.
The 2 things that will keep us interested for a long time are:
1) Lots of character customizing options
2) lots of different content to play.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Yeah...........you're going to have to speak for yourself on the whole not wanting to team up and have a social aspect. I COMPLETELY disagree. I miss all my friends. Most of the friends I made were playing CoH. I miss teaming with them. I miss teaming with random strangers and meeting new people. The social aspect is NOT what keeps me out of the other MMO's. It's the inability to team with other people, or having to have specific gear in order to do it.
CoH had it right with the Super Side Kick capability and allowing up to 8 people to team all at once. They also had it right in that you didn't have to have specific gear, powers, builds, or AT's in order to play together. People could play anything they wanted and have fun doing it and still succeed. Now, I'm not a big PvPer, so I can't say much there. But if I want to solo a game, I'll play my PS3.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
MWM will also Scale Missions to accommodate Solo players, so you're covered there.
But, point 1 and 2, might take some odd years before it will Appeal to 90+% of the players.
1) Lots of Character Customization.. is a little easier, so thats a plus. 2 to 3 years only.
2) Lots of Content to Play.. is allot Harder. Allot of smaller cogs need to churn to get there. 4+ years to have a decent world that most will enjoy.
In the meantime, MWM will be looking to reUse the Existing Maps in different ways. Those ideas I brought up above, could help to alleviate boredom to a degree. ;)
Maybe i should start a new tread. :P
I think, at some point, you have to draw the line where "comic book simulation" ends and where MMORPG continues.
Like you said, there are many types of heroes and most don't steadily gain power as the proceed through their career. . . So making compelling content for such characters would require a different design approach. It might be worthwhile to pursue, especially for you. I can get behind varied game modes and the like. . . But at the same time I don't really care. Comics (American) have been in decline since forever anyway and manga has been killing them world wide nearly without effort. Should we then take that as reason to tip the direction of the game to also emulate manga even if it would require largely different approaches to story telling? Not to mention I like manga a whole lot more so I honestly wouldn't oppose.
No, the game doesn't have to incorporate more manga themes, I'll do that myself. Same partially for your cosmic heroes. It'd be nice if whole game modes with different character progression was going into the game, but it's unlikely because of the difficulties it'd face. But you can put in the effort to make the concept work. In foremost, the game should be seen as a multi genre stimulator with a mild comic motif. You'll be able to do lots of concepts within reason.
here are 2 simple suggestions that could easily be incorporated into the game from the beginning.
1) since streetfighting characters will stop making sense after a certain level, give players the option to stop gaining XP at any time. COH did this as I recall.
2) Cosmic heroes start out really powerful, once a player has reached maximum level, give him the option to create new toons that start out at higher levels. (Dungeons & Dragons online recently introduced 4 "Iconic Classes" that start out at 15th level).
There you go I just solved the whole problem.
I'm not going to pretend it was easy, If I'd thought of this sooner, I'd have suggested it sooner.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Heh, yeah. I already made a suggestion about allowing people to have an Instant Max Level Token upon reaching level cap. It didn't go over too well. I still think it's a great idea, but a lot of other people shot it down.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Well I didn't mean instant Max level, I was thinking more along the lines of letting you start your cosmic toons at like 15th or 20th level.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
The thread I started was called Instant Max Level. I even discussed the possibility of starting out at whatever level you wanted to start at. So if you wanted to start at 20 you could.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I think the main problem I'd have with that is powers and enhancement slots are granted by level. Someone who is level 20 in CoH terms gets like 10 powers.
The other main problem is mechanics. You're not giving a mechanical reason to limit progression. Pointing out that people want to be Street level for personal reasons isn't a mechanical reason but then Street level seems necessary to make the distinction between them and cosmic.
Back to my other post, if players want Street levels, giving the option to halt XP would work and having consumables or cash shop items that give levels would help if you don't want your hero bumbling about the low levels... But strength differences are probably not gonna happen.
This isn't a problem, This is the whole point
What do you mean by "mechanical reason" ? We just opt to not gain xp by checking a box.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
As I understand it Paladin, you issue is not really with the idea of levels but more the progression of the story. You want to be able to tell a story with your characters (rightfully so) and want the game to provide many alternate avenues for you to choose from in regards to story.
City of heroes did tend to follow a certain story progression (from street level to cosmic to use your terms) but it looks like this game will have more options for the story you want to tell.
The clue system alone is very interesting to me.
Now while I can understand wanting a completely open story progression that fits an individuals desires it is just not going to happen without it being devoid of actual story or require a cosmic investment of time and energy. The main story progression will tend to follow a linear slope in foes faced. Just as in CoH you start with hellions, move to clockwork, then crey all the way up to the praetorians, this game will have a similar concept of foe progression. This is not a bad thing as it make the game easily accessible to a new player that comes from other MMOs. What we as players have to understand is that there is a sort of give and take dynamic to an MMO or to be more exact...a kind of co-operative symbiosis.
What I mean is the devs provide a nice playground that has an abundance of the stories they want to tell but also has tools for us to create our own stories. Tools like a mission creator, the clue system, foe notoriety, pvp ect ect ect.
In other words, meet them halfway and work within the system to tell the stories you want. You want a cosmic character, either ignore the low levels or put them in your characters background. You want to only fight street level foes, don't do any missions or face any foes that have the cosmic theme. They will in turn give you ways to progress in the game that is not forced upon you.
Edited to include
This is why people seem to dislike the idea of levels. They view each level in a powerset as a new power. It isn't ...its a new way to use the existing power.
Few arguments that use a direct comparison between comics and the game will be valid. They are completely separate mediums. Each has a set of rules that cannot be transferred.
Besides, there are VERY few comic characters whose powers have not evolved. Superman alone was getting a new power every issue for a while. Batman used to use a gun. Cyclops learned to split his beam. Sue Storm got force fields. Spawn was learning new powers all the time. Spider man is now a contortionist. All characters in comics get new skills or learn to use the ones they have in a new way.
I mean, you're only 'outlining' street level heroes to make a contrast for cosmic level heroes. Your ideas for cosmic levels are the only suggestion that is actually suggesting "something more" to be added while your suggestion for street heroes basically amounts to "let them choose to cut off xp" which is already a feature that is going to be added.
The point I was getting at, but I didn't want to be so blunt is, there already are street level and cosmic heroes. What you're trying to do is define the two when that is exactly the thing the devs *won't* do. It's like defining who are mutant or natural origins rather than allowing the player decide. It's neglecting that, just because a hero fights street crime, the player can justify (or not) why that hero fights cosmic crime as well or vice versa.
The best solution for your issue should simply be having varied story arcs to try to accomodate more flavored characters.
It sounds like what you want is a single-player game, rather than an MMO.
Me, I enjoy teaming with people and I enjoy soloing. I like chatting with people and making friends and I like spending time by myself just exploring or tweaking things. (Not interested in PvP though.)
MMOs allow me to do both.
Pretty much. I don't want the Devs adding a character creation option that makes me choose Street Level, National Hero, or Cosmic Entity. What if I want my character to start out as a street brawling, two-fisted hero who later gets selected by the Emerald Energy Legion to become a space cop? I can fill in the story quite nicely on my own, I don't need the game forcing mechanistic solutions on me.
Superman hasn't gotten a new power in about 50 years,
Batman hasn't used a gun in 60 years
Cyclops splitting the beam is seriously no big deal
I'm not sure when exactly Sue storm got force fields but she clearly had them by issue #34 the series had around 500 issues.
Spawn didn't exist until I stopped reading comics so I'm sure in time he'll also settle down to a fixed set just like they all do.
Actually, it seems you have a poor grasp of my reasons for anything, and you would do better to talk about the merrits or problems with my suggestions than trying to guess at my motives.
If that has already been decided, then VICTORY IS MINE!
Frankly I wish you would be more blunt because I still haven't got a clue what you're takling about
People have been telling me this since the early days of COH but there is no single player video game that gives me the character customization and content of an MMO, and most MMOs do allow me to play solo so what's it to you if I do?
As far as I'm concerned an MMO is just a big video game anyway.
Then you don't need any modifications. You seem to want the kind of character the game was made for. However I'm asking to be able to make the kind of character I want and once again what's it to you?
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Superman had electrical powers for a while in the late 90s. Thankfully that didn't last, but Supes has been one of the more irregular heroes in power definitions, thanks in no small part to the plethora of abilities he was given in the 70s, pre-Crisis.
Spider-man used a set of Tony Stark-designed power armor for a while. (Not to mention the period where he developed organic web shooters)
Heroes powers change. Often they revert to how they were before. Sometimes the new powers become permanent.
If that's all you wanted, you could have just said so.
It is just a big video game. Thus the G in MMORPG. And play solo all you like, it makes no difference to me how you play. Having a strong solo-able game is important. But so is having the social aspects for people who enjoy them. And PvP aspects for people who enjoy that.
The problem is that you seem to be asking for a mechanistic solution which would be imposed on everyone, not just people who want to make your type of character. Turn off XP and stay a street level character all you like. But don't ask for something to be added that forces a character down a specific path.
I Did
None of the solutions I've offered has forced anything on anyone.
Allowing players to start at higher levels (once they've reached level 50)
giving people alternative starting places.
Those are the only solutions I've offered.
How does either of these options effect you, if you don't want to use them?
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Alright, I'll try to explain what posts of yours I've read then further explain my retort.
You listed your reasons for disliking levels, which I'm not personally opposed to (I don't mind levels and if the game suddenly doesn't have them, I'm not going to wonder where they went). You say they interfere with personal perception of your character vs the environment, specifically the extreme cases of street-heroes outclassing street crime and cosmic-heroes being outclassed by street crime. There's mention of other things but what's pertinent to my posts was the part about being forced to play content you don't want to.
You point out that content can be created to point your street-heroes or cosmic-heroes to content that befits their 'status' (which is an idea I can certainly get behind). You further go on to say that street-heroes and cosmic-heroes wouldn't cross often, outline that comsic-heroes either get more power to start with or somehow obtains it far faster but plateaus very early. You continue with some extra thoughts about being able to control exp rate (I mentioned it was a feature going to be added. I mis-spoke. I meant to say it's *likely* a feature since it was a rather early feature of CoH due to xp debt) as well as an option to speed up exp to bypass most of the early content (also a feature introduced in CoH but rather later in its lifespan. This might be an option in CoT but probably not at the start).
You rationalize your suggestions...
-for street-heroes as being "if the players are where they want to be, why is it a problem?"
-for comsic-heroes by listing comic book examples such as Silver Surfer and Thor.
Now to my rebuttal. No one will play street-heroes. I'm being very blunt and very general when saying that. When I say no one will play them, I mean no one will play them consistently. Why? Because no further progress would be possible with them. Sure, they may pull them out for fun or RP, and that may be okay with your because you don't seem interested in that side but if you are, what kind of boring @22 street-hero concepts do you have that don't end up facing stuff that puts that street-hero as the underdog yet prevails? Once they show they can overcome a higher threat, the stakes often stays the same which often requires slightly escalatingly dangerous villains.
On the other hand, cosmic-heroes sound exceedingly boring. CoT (as a successor to CoH) isn't a skill-based game. Since no twitch gameplay is involved, it's not like the content can continuously be fresh and engaging by just making more of it...which is why character progression is a thing that freshens gameplay. You can make things progressively tougher because your character gets progressively stronger. And just because the two sides of that ration go up does it mean it's going to be a 1:1 change to how the combat actually turns out. New powers drastically change how your character can function and can make an entire enemy group go from trash to dangerous threat.
Stepping away from my personal rebuttal, back to the conceptual difficulties of your proposal, it hinges on making a difference between street-heroes and cosmic-heroes but if cosmic-heroes can do pretty much anything the street-hero can do while the street-hero is hamstrung into specific content unless he has a team, you're not giving a purpose to be a street-hero besides personal rational. If personal reasons are enough to make a street-hero, the same can be done for your comsic-heroes, you just have to set aside time and effort to farm up the xp to bypass the early game (again, maybe the devs can institute some sort of limited use consumables per-account to help with that).
Beyond the devs implementing more story paths, your suggestion for "cosmic-heroes" isn't necessary and while it may be compelling for some, it certainly isn't compelling to me.
Back to personal opinion, using comics as they were as the blueprint for the game will only lead to failure. Not unless they step back and reassess how they approach the story. Manga is much more popular, successful and varied and tends to emphasize story and world-building which is what is needed for this game. The last thing the game needs is "Mary Sue/Marty Stu" mode for players that want 'comsic-heroes'. It's much easier for the game to aim somewhere between street and comsic and then let you use in-game features to swing in whichever direction you want and then build varied narratives that you can then pick (or create!!) to fulfill the concept.
Yes he has. Lots of times. Some permanent and some not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Superman
Yes he has. Lots of times. The movie and cartoon references don't count, but three of those examples are from canonical DC comics.
http://toybox.io9.com/7-times-batman-has-bent-his-no-guns-rule-1634040693
Spawn's powers haven't settled yet in the 22 years since 1992, and the above examples--plus so many other examples from comic books that I don't want to mess with posting them--show that Superheros do not all settle down into a fixed set. In fact, many top heroes don't.
It seems like you stopped reading comics 50 or 60 years ago :P.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
All I can say to that is I just disagree and once again the options I'm asking for take nothing away from the game for those who don't want them but will add a lot to the game for those who do.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Exceptions are not rules
And new powers don't count if they're not permanent. Temporary powers are just part of a story and they go away when the story ends leaving the character unchanged.
And when I said Batman hasn't used a gun in 60 years, I meant he hasn't carried one as a standard part of his equipment. As he did in some early stories.
I stopped reading comics in 1993. I guess I missed spawn showing up the year befor.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Well, like I mentioned before, I don't like your definition of street-level hero which kind of skews your cosmic-level hero. It's too exclusive and you seem to be viewing the suggestion from your personal perspective, not in how others will view it.
But then the thread isn't suppose to be a firing squad aimed at TMP, it's about progression systems/character building. It might be out of the question to suggest a level-less system for the game, but you might still be able to press the devs into considering some sort of hybrid system to take the sole focus off of levels.
You weren't talking about exceptions and rules, you said "he'll also settle down to a fixed set just like they all do." But they all don't. That's a fact.
If you actually read what I posted above, many of those powers have become permanent. That's another fact.
As far as Batman goes, I didn't know what you meant, I just knew what you said.
I'm just saying that you stated that it's your opinion that Superhero powers always settle into a fixed set, but the fact is that they often don't.
Anyway, enough energy expended on that topic. If you still don't see my point, agree to disagree and all that :).
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
More content, the ability to disable XP and even the level boost don't. However, segregated paths would. As long as the different content is not locked to specific 'hero types', then there is no problem. If I want my Daredevil-like hero to fight against Ronan the Accuser, I can choose to do that content, even if it violates your 'street level heros don't fight cosmic bad guys' sensibilities.
In an aside, you said earlier that 'Becoming a cosmic hero is NOT something you build up to. It's not something even a superhero could build up to.' That's not true, it has happened. As an example, take Nova aka Richard Rider. When he first obtained the power of a Nova Corps centurion, he was fighitng street crime and bush-league supervillains. Small time stuff for the most part. Over time, he learned more about his powers and how to use them. Eventually, he became a cosmic-level hero, defending planets from entire invading space fleets and the like.
Most cosmic-level heroes may be like the SIlver Surfer and gain their power all in one fell swoop, but it is not the only path that is taken.
The statement that they wouldn't cross paths often was made early on before better solutions came to mind. I was no longer even thinking about that any more.
As for Nova, I suspect that the reason for his evolution is that the book was foundering without a clear direction under a series of different writers. Just a guess.
A better example might be Goku from Dragonball Z but he's exceptional because his development is explained as being just what Saiyans are like. I never got into Dragonball Z myself the whole story was too long and complicated for me to enjoy.
Seriously though, I don't have a problem with you playing any kind of character you want even one with no precedent in the comics whatsoever. I just want to be able to play more traditional characters, that don't lend themselves to la level system without a little tweeking.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
The problem is that the exception is the character that does not evolve in comics. Not the static unchanging character.
But that wasn't even the main point. It was that you want players to have clearly defined power levels. Street hero vs cosmic. That will only limit the game. If all you are asking for is a way to stop xp or start at a higher level then I can agree with it. But seperating a characters progression, level limit, power limit, mission arcs, location ect into cosmic/street (as those seem to be all you have offered) I dislike very much.
I do not want a choice I made a character creation to lock me out of playable content (note I said playable content not powersets) or locations.
Again, there is nothing wrong with sloping foe progression. Its how the game makes itself accessible. As does an overall story in the game.
What CoH did was offer other ways to progress than the 'main' story and CoT is promising the same sort of thing. We may not get all at launch (just like we didn't with CoH) but they will come. Sometimes you need to work within the system to make the character you want....not change the game.
I think the OP is perhaps missing what an MMO is. With respect to his opinion of course I find his personal desires would ruin an MMO for potentially many players (as we do not represent the opinions or voice of the entire player/fanbase) It sounds like he wants the Action RPG or something like a single release console game.
All the reasons you listed is what makes an MMO. Levels, earning abilities and getting gear is an important part of a continuing MMO game and gives players familiar with the MMO game style a sense of accomplishment. When you gain a level or by any upgrade you accomplish a feat that makes your character better and you can move on to the next goal to make your character better or more powerful. Progression is an important part of what makes an MMO great. If a Dev team is good, by the time you get to the end game they have new content ready to go in the next couple months. For Example World off Warcraft has several avenues a player can have to better level his or her character through Pet Battles, Professions, Quests, Dungeon runs, PVP, or simply going through the land and fighting random NPC creatures.
"Themepark" MMO's seem to provide the most content (World of Warcraft). While "Sandbox" MMO's (Wildstar ((Hardcore PVE)) will exclude players that are not targeted by chosen game mechanics. Be it a 'sandbox' PVP or PVE game. The "Themepark" approach adds things a player enjoys in the game but also provides the option to try other things some may not always enjoy grinding. As a PVE MMO gamer I still like the option to PVP if I choose. It also MUST cater to both types of MMO gamer. The 'Hardcore' who can devote the most time in learning all aspects of the game; and the "Casual" gamer who may log in for an hour or so to socialize run a few missions/quests maybe PvP a bit and log off until they have a day off from work.
What you seem to be asking is to allow players to feel powerful from the moment you log on. To feel like that accomplished veteran hero right away. The problem with that is you're eliminating progression and accomplishment and substituting them for casual moments of heroism or villainy. Even Superman had to learn to fly...
A leveling system will always be part of an MMO even when it's disguised. Progression is the foundation of what draws players to an MMO game. What you seem to be asking for is a single shot story such as a game you'd buy for the Playstation or Xbox...a single player Action game.
To cut this reply short...though it looks like you're not a fan of leveling when it comes to an MMOARPG it's part of the necessary progression of this type of game. You can't ask for a burger then say "Hold the meat", well...you can but then it's just not a Burger.
To pick up on what Nova was saying ... Levels allow both Players and Developers to "measure" the progress of characters through the game. They are a necessary quantification of achievement and "investment" by the Player into the game and that specific character. Because underneath it all, a MMORPG runs on [b]NUMBERS[/b] ... even if they're cleverly disguised behind a curtain.
So having Levels on Player Characters is kinda sorta necessary as a measure of tracking progress based on what gets DONE and accomplished as opposed to HOW LONG that character has been online (ie. Time Played). Those PC Levels are also somewhat necessary as a benchmark for being able to "scale" the challenges the game throws at PCs to overcome.
I therefore have no problem with PCs having Levels.
I do however question the utility of giving NPCs "fixed" Levels, or even narrow Level ranges, because doing so thwarts the goal of having the game "scale" to the PC(s) and results in a dynamic of Planned Obsolescence (barring use of Flashbacks or Exemplar).
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This thread has been going for some time and the discussion has developed quite a bit.
It was never about doing away with levels as has been said repeatedly.
But there are certain problems caused by the convention of levels. These have also been discussed at length
After much discussion a 2 part solution was offered:
1) Give Players the option to not gain XP if they wish
2) Give players, who have reached 50th level, the option to start new characters at a level higher than 1st, Perhaps 10th 15th or even 20th.
Both of these suggestions would offer exciting options to players who wanted them, without taking anything away from players who didn't.
No Devs have spoken yet so no clear answer has been given.
Personally, I have nothing more to say on the matter.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
One way to do this that other games have done is heirloom items. As in, you still need to level up from 1, but to make the process quicker and easier, you get one or more experience boosters you can equip to your character, in support of Alt-itis.. A good way to do that would be a "token" you receive as part of a reward for hitting the level cap that you can then spend on one of your alts to permanently increase their experience gain, or something similar.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
I do like the idea of being able to start new characters at level 5, 10, etc but I do think they need to have limits on when to ensure you don't get problems with (for example only) a Tank to level 50 and then decide to start a Controller at level 15. They are very different play styles and you shouldn't be able to start at a higher level if you have never played that Class before.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Just a nit pick here, but Wildstar is most definitely a "Themepark" style of MMO, and not a sandbox. Eve Online, Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, A Tale In The Desert, Darkfall Online... those are sandboxes.
That's a good point. maybe you should have to unlock higher level starts for each class separately.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
The idea of getting experience boosts for new characters rather than skipping levels solves that problem handily.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
Perhaps but I'm used to playing games where a higher level for starting toons is an option, I'm not familiar with your suggestion and I'm not sure how it would play out. I'd rather not comment on it since I just can't tell.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I personally don't think the starting levels are that widely unique that this would be a huge problem. Past 15th level perhaps, but mostly the beginning is learning controls, baseline stuff like hp and energy, enhancements and how to make your character stronger. By Max level, you should be able to get all of that.
Personally, I'd consider this a mandatory optional feature ... as in the game has problems if the option isn't there. I played TERA and oh man the struggle to NOT level too quickly was insane! TERA handed out XP for mission completion that was just ridiculous! You got most of your XP from completing quests, not from grinding kills. What made it somewhat obnoxious though is that TERA didn't have a Flashback system, and entire zones were Level Locked kind of like CoH Contacts were. Level too fast and the Contact stops talking to you, regardless of where you were in their story arc.
But then to add insult to injury, TERA had "Marathon" Badges for zone regions that were a collection of Defeat X stuff. Things like Defeat 300 X ... Defeat 200 Y ... Defeat 30 BAMs of Type A and 30 BAMs of Type B. In TERA, BAMs were literally Big Ass Monsters. You'd basically get a laundry list of about 1000+ things to kill in the region in order to earn the Marathon Badge ... and you would only get credit for the kills [i]so long as those kills awarded XP[/i] ... which, guess what, they wouldn't if you were more than +3 Levels over what you were killing.
So narrow tiny little window of opportunity to squeeze through if you wanted to earn these Badges. In fact, you had to actively AVOID earning XP as much as possible just in order to not outlevel the opportunity earn them. Yeah, yeah ... Korean Grindfest ... completely utterly and totally. What made these badges exceptionally sad was that pretty much the only way to get them was to aim for them BEFORE you moved into the area and have PLANNED what you were going to kill IN ADVANCE so as to not overshoot and miss out.
If TERA had a way to "decline earning XP" it wouldn't have been so bad. But TERA didn't have such an option ... and man did I *hate it* that there was no way to avoid earning XP and leveling up (too fast) ... because there was no Flashback capability of any kind and ALL of the content was effectively Level Locked within a +3/-3 range.
Tabula Rasa did something similar. Over there they called it [url=http://tabularasa.wikia.com/wiki/Cloning]Cloning[/url] and it basically allowed you (as a player) to skip over content when creating alts.
I do not recommend doing anything akin to this for City of Titans.
Why?
[b]Because how you play from 1-10 determines how you will play at the Level Cap.[/b]
I have seen this be true for just about every online game I have played. It was true in Diablo II and III, it was true in City of Heroes, it was true in World of Warcraft, and in TERA and Star Trek Online and in Tabula Rasa. How you play the game early on determines how you will play the "late" game.
Even when you're an "experienced" Player who's not only gone to the Level Cap already, and even if you've done so more than once and have multiple Alts at the Level Cap ... the formative experiences of playing upwards from Level 1 on a new character DEFINE how you will play that character from then on. I know, from personal experience that characters I play upwards from Level 1 ultimately make a better "imprint" upon me than those that let me skip over all of those formative experiences.
Plus, let's look at what this idea REALLY does. It essentially doubles down on Planned Obsolescence. Play Once and then NEVER AGAIN ... ever ... not even on Alts. Are you REALLY sure that's a great idea?
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Disagreed. At least on the CoH front. I could make a while laundry list of why nots.
Also it's not like limits couldn't be placed so you can't always skip with no penalty. Also also, if the devs are ambitious as they sound, there's likely more paths to progress than just regular mission Arcs and plowing through enemies.
Dungeons & Dragons Online allows players to earn veteran status which lets them start at 4th, or 7th level, and if you play one of the Iconic classes you start at 15th level.
These options are available to me and sometimes I se them, but sometimes I don't. It depends on the kind of experience I want. plus even if I use these options, I still play some of the early adventures for no XP to get other rewards.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
We've already seen what happens in City of Heroes when people were given the option to "skip over" early game content ... albeit not in the fashion that we're seeing suggested here. It was called [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Death_From_Below]Death From Below[/url], also known as the Sewer Trial.
Yet another example of an "option" that wound up becoming something less than optional [i]given the way people played the game[/i]. Why? Because it was the "best option" available ... and if it hadn't been, hardly anyone would have been running it.
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Have you considered it was because coh was a repetitive game and with the number of Alts people made, they likely ran the early game literally hundreds of times?
And I remember death from below and the other mini trial type content. It was one of the reasons I questioned farming in that other thread but got my head chewed of for some reason. But still, that doesn't correlate early play determining how you play the rest of the game. How one chooses to earn their rewards is a different matter.
I often heard people make cryptic references to the sewer trial but I never even found out what it was.
I had several low level paths to choose from:
1) Do the missions from Contacts in Atlas Park. Booring! I never did all of them. I would always outlevel the contacts before I finished all the missions.
2) prowl the street running straight into the red zone.(the part of the map outlined in red) This was my usual method.
once I got to about 5th level I had a lot of options
1) I could take the train to King's Row and run radio missions till I got a jet pack
2) I could run through the sewers to King's Row then hit the streets and go to the red zone
3) Perez Park
4) The Hollows
No matter which option I took I'd stay there until I was ready for either Skyway City or Steel Canyon
After that I started running out of options and all of my toons ended up going to Talos Island for a long time.
It took me a long time to discover Faultline.
At almost every level I'd spend a lot of time hanging around in the streets looking for what I called purple monsters. These were foes, who coned purple to me, standing out in the open pretty much alone.
I always prefered prowling the streets to doing missions because it was just a lot more fun, and I didn't have to try to keep up with contacts. I hated having to be introduced to contacts.
AE changed that big time giving me more options at every level. and the contact never refused to talk to me.
Frankly not a lot of my toons made it past about 30th level because the XP requirements were so extreme after that point that I just gave up and started a new low level toon. I had 2 toons that made it to 50 without farming and about 4 I farmed up to 50. I didn't like farming because it was boring repetitive and required me to team up with other players. (The thing I hated to do more than anything) 2 other things I hated about high level game content was immobilizing attacks by the Rikti and the circus people made me spend too much time standing around helpless, and even when I was fighting, all of the bad guys had so many HP it took forever to take them down.
Why can't a high level superhero have some foes he can one shot?
Heck a lot of the time I'd hit the street in areas too low level to gain xp just so I could run around and actually feel like a superhero for once. If I was lucky I'd pick up an explorer badge.
I literally played hundreds of toons but most would get deleted to make room for new ones after about 15th to 30th level.
So now Red, tell me: How exactly did my low level playing style effect my higher level playing in a way that would bother you? Ultimately I have to ask, why does it matter to you how other people play as long as they enjoy it? If you don't like it, you don't have to play that way.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
+1.
To be fair, the 1-5 content of Paragon City never really did get an update until after the revamp of Galaxy City and the Tutorial. Ironically, I never got to play the new low level stuff myself (Twin Shot, etc.) because I was always running my new characters through Praetoria once Issue 18 hit. I always figured I could come back later on a Flashback and do the Paragon City/Rogue Isles stories I'd missed by coming up through Praetoria.
However, in contrast to you, I wanted to actually play the designed content, simply because it was a "fair" testing ground for making mistakes and learning a new character in.
Still hated the forced teaming of The Hollows though. I first encountered The Hollows back in Issue 2(!) and never really liked it. Took me a while to find out I didn't HAVE TO do the Hollows story arc when sent there ... I could go to King's Row instead.
As a Player, likely not much if at all. Because as a Player, it doesn't matter all that much HOW you got to where you have so much as that you've managed to get there at all.
However, as a Developer (which I'm not, just in case anyone is worried) I'd be concerned about the production of disposable/skippable/One And Done content. I say that because ideally you want to have content be, in some form or fashion, reusable. As soon as you give people the option/capability to skip over content "because they've done it before" they most assuredly will ... and usually a majority of the time.
The other thing to consider is that we're talking about a Level 30 cap for game launch of City of Titans. If you let people skip over the first 5, 10, 15, 20 Levels of the game ... what are you saying about the VALUE of that skippable content? As a Developer you're basically saying that it's "worthless" and is in effect a "penalty" that only gets applied to Newbs. Virgin accounts have to do that content, but then after that you can just chuck it in the trash and never have to deal with it ever again ... which SHRINKS THE WORLD. It reduces the size of the "playable space" of the game. It turns everything that can be skipped into an extended tutorial. It becomes Second Class Content.
In other words, affects the Individual Player hardly at all ... but it does harm to the perception of the Game As A Whole by the larger community-at-large playing the game. It creates a dynamic that produces its own conventional wisdom, which then looks down on that "era" of content as something to be disposed of (as quickly as possible) and forgotten. Thus my objection in this case is more one of Big Picture rather than one of objecting about YOU specifically.
Question Reversal (rhetorical version):
If you're enjoying the content, why are you so eager to skip over it so that you don't have to do it again on an alt?
For a long time, before the Fitness Pool became Inherent, the conventional wisdom was ... "Life Begins At 20" ... due to Stamina finally(!) arriving. Shortly after that, at Level 22, you could begin slotting Single Origin Enhancements and your character finally(!) started feeling Super. The game just transformed as a playing experience beginning at Level 20.
Later on, when the Incarnate System got rolled out, this conventional wisdom changed again. You weren't hearing "Life Begins At 20" anymore. Instead you were hearing "Life Begins At 50" ... as if the entire rest of the game before the Level Cap was meaningless and a chore to be disposed of a quickly/efficiently as possible. It was essentially an attitude that the only content in the game that had ANY value was what you could do at the Level Cap.
This attitude is not something unique to City of Heroes either. There are plenty of games on the market where the attitude taken is that anything below Level Cap is "worthless" except as a Time Sink. Granted, it's a very cynical attitude, but it's out there nonetheless. As you can imagine given my responses thus far, I'd prefer not to aid, abet and reinforce that kind of attitude about City of Titans through use of sanctioned game mechanics that support the cynicism. I don't want there to be a dividing line between First Class Content and Second Class Content (or Third or Fourth or yougetheidea).
Not sure if trolling or not ...
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Nope. Its not a troll'ish +1. :<
I was being sympathetic with that statement. :{
I actually Agree with you on many of your points.... Buttttttt...
...that doesnt mean TMPaladin is wrong for Wanting these things. ;)
I have respect for peoples desires and how they can differ from time to time.
From a Devs perspective, they have to choose who to please, maybe by numbers?
And TMPaladins wants might not be fully met. Which can happen to us all.
Some our Wants might not make it in CoT. Thats all. ;)
Instead of Pleasing Some of the players All of the Time (with Deeep Pockets),
MWM seems to want to Please Most of the players, Most of the Time. ;D
For me, it's not a comment on the quality of certain content to say that it's not what I want THIS CHARACTER to be doing.
I'll still play it with the characters I do start at first level. In fact, sometimes I want to be able to not get XP so I don't outlevel the content and can play it again and again.
I'd also like it if the difficulty of all content could be adjusted enough that I could replay missions that I liked, instead of outleveling it, or skip to the Cosmic adventures, while I'm still low level, by lowering the difficulty. Up until now the discussion has focused on how characters level, what if it was the content were altered instead, allowing us to run it in any order we choose?
I don't know. You'll probably say it would make teaming more difficult or something.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Me answering the reversed question: is a matter of combating repetitiveness. But it wouldn't need to be simply a matter of skipping. For instance, it could simply be a path that doesn't involve as much combat but instead utilizes the non combat features. Or if it does skip a portion of the content, it could be a limited access consumable either purchased in the cash shop or Granted upon obtaining Max level on a character.
And what the masses of people cry about on forums doesn't mean they were the majority or right. The masses were wrong about the fitness pool, the enhancements thing is an intentional feature meant to make a contrast of improvement and I don't recall anyone saying incarnate powers were the new 'life' of a character since not everyone sought to obtain them on mostof theircharacters and made regular content plain stupid easy instead of just easy with IOs.
One thing I have to say for our Comp team (this includes Lore and all of content writing) is they have been busy, really busy. There is certainly no shortage of a available content to put into the game its actually more a matter of if the content is suitable for the game, when is it suitable, and of course the technical implementation.
PC levels will exist, as will the option to restrict or turn off xp gain.
We have gone over level skipping both internally and here on the boards even before this thread to the point where the horse died, was resuscitated, died again, its zombified corpse got beat up, shot, burned, and decapitated but it still hasn't been pit out of its misery. That is nothing is settled but definitely not a launch feature, off the table for now and set aside to reevaluate at a later time.
Now as to content paths from starting levels and being bored with the sense of same-old-stuff at the early game, we are aware that it can be a problem for our long term players making new characters and thee are some cool concepts we are working with.
Finally, keep in mind that from the very start of play your characters will be making decisions that determines their alignment, who likes and dislikes them, and shapes the narrative for your character's particular story within the game. It is not so cut and dry, black and white, every time. The idea is not to end up with "the real game" begins at level 20, the game begins at the start of character creation.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Well, then I guess there's no more to say here.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Slighty off topic but related to some comments on this thread, I often hear people remark about how repedative CoH was, but I played for 8 years and never really felt that way. On the other hand, I played Champions and DCUO for just over a year each and found them a bit repeditive.
There is even another thread saying that CoH had too much zone content. But yet repeditivenssness seems a common complaint, and one that I never really felt in CoH but have in other games.
What am I missing?
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Well answer how the game wasn't repetitive. I can make a list of what was the culprits:
- at some point, you memorize the portions of the maps not to mention many maps are used a lot more often than others.
- objectives were limited. You can pretty much boil them down to "kill all", "click glowie(s)", "kill boss" and "kill last room". It was rare to come upon something different.
- enemies weren't varied within their groups making them very predictable. There ate exceptions like the Rikti or CoT but they were the minority and yet still wholly predictable.
-character progress wasn't very varied. Badges and accolades was a start but they could have expanded more on it so it wasn't just gaining xp, inf, enhancements then incarnate stuff at max.
-Because of the above, mission structure could *ONLY* be repetitive. From gaining missions from contacts to traveling to the instance door and doing the same structured content.
There's other minor things like textures and music that might be looked over as just limitations of budget but these things made what content was developed for the game very stale. There were other aspects of the game that helped keep people playing such as the customization and AE to make your own missions but none of that makes the flaws go away.
+10 [i](not a typo)[/i]
For what it's worth, my experience of games where this option was permitted did not yield the desired overall effect. For one thing, it tended to splinter the community such that only a self-reinforcing reductional fraction of the playerbase would be playing early content. This in turn led towards community attitudes that skewed against the kinds of "Adopt A Newbie" attitudes that we like to think of as being a bright spot in City of Heroes that were founded in Altruism rather than Elitism.
So I find it very heartening to hear that this topic has been discussed [i]beyond its natural death[/i] and will NOT be a feature at Game Launch.
/em popcorn
Okay ... this ought to be good ... when you can tell us more about it, of course.
/em nod
As it should be. As it should be ...
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