Something I desperately wanted in CoH was for powers to feel weak when they were weak and feel legendary when they were legendary.
For example, maybe a fireball isn't that strong at first and the animation reflects this. As you gain in level (or allocate more enhancements to the power or both), the power LOOKS and SOUNDS more powerful. And the enemy reaction should reflect it too. Say I hit someone with fireball and it does more than 80% damage to them. They should light on fire and fall to the ground in pain. If I use super punch and they take 100% or more damage, they should go flying (including through walls and into buildings).
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This summarizes my hopes and dreams for CoT. Check it out if you'd like.
I agree with this. It would be nice if your powers felt epic. If you have super strength and you hit a mook, they should react. Knockdown/back/up is great. Effects. I'd also like to se enemies surrender rather than having to be completely taken out. Not every villain or mook out there will fight to the 'death'..... :)
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Agreed. auto punch should feel, hit and look like a punch. Super punch should feel, hit and look like a super punch. When you get to your max levels. Powers should start to feel even more awesome and your end game ultimate power should be just mind blowing. Evolution of powers.
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....Being level 50 Shield/SS tank...
Going to Atlas Park with a secondary troll build...
Knockup punch hellions to the blimp...
That was the only time I felt like a punch has some real power behind it.
As long as we keep it to KU or KD, not KB. KB on a power that you use in your dmg rotation gets annoying for everyone on the team. Look at NRG blast and PB in human form.
One power that I always felt powerful using was footstomp.
What the OP is getting at is like this: at level 1 in your fire ball looks like a golf ball, at level say 30 or when fully slotted it would look like a wrecking ball (being more extreme just to get the point across). The thing with this at character gen which is the first introduction to the game, we would have to include sliders to show players what their power may eventually look like as the customize it. While this would work ok for certain types of powers, it won't work well for all types of powers. Things like a punch getting better knock effects are possible but that won't come across in at character generation, nor may such effects like knock work the same against npcs of different ranks and levels.
So while the fireball thrower gets to have his wrecking ball go off all the time, the punchy guy doesn't get to see his knock effect all the time. It would also require a lot more time and can have effects on the range of customization we hope to offer by placing constraints from the art level to the design level.
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So what if the KB was only triggered by defeating the character? So they get blown away, but they're "defeated" so what difference would it make?
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This summarizes my hopes and dreams for CoT. Check it out if you'd like.
No, Knockback got annoying for SOME of the people in the game. There were people who didn't mind it. To me, autofollowing a thug that got knocked back was barely noticeable. On my blasters, having an enemy stand up out of melee range after an energy punch *was* noticeable.
I respect that some people were annoyed by it, but let's respect the fact not everyone is annoyed by the same thing.
I'm not terribly crazy when people overuse abbreviations but I don't insist that it annoys "everyone on the forums," for example.
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
I have to agree. Keep Knockback... BUT, have Enhancements for KnockDown to fill that power, converting that powers effect into KnockDown.
Dragon Ball online dose something similar to this. As you level up your character grows up so at level 1 you are the size of Goku in basic Dragon ball. at level 15 you are the size Gohan in the Freeza saga. So this kind of thing has been done before but at the same time there is some logic behind not doing it this way. We are heroes for the most part so im sure what we have the standard no killing policy. As such we tend to pull our punches a bit. Think of what would happen if Superman punched a random thug at full strength. His hand would go right through the guy. As such there is a limit to what can be done in the way of power effects but having some advancement to base powers would be nice.If not just a visual effect why not have the option of upgrading a old power instead of getting a new one or getting point specificity for upgrade a power every few levels. Power upgrades could add a extra boost to almost any effect or add additional effects. A knock back punch could also daze the target making it slower or ir could become a huge arm sweep that knocks all those in front of you back.
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Knockback is always something people tend to dislike, even though it's a staple of the genre. Driving your enemies away just doesn't make sense in a system where proximity is desired due to effect strength. I'd like a way to turn it off, but I suppose I could just take powers that have a knock up or down component.
What I'd like to see, in regards to the topic, is extreme amounts of knockback when finishing a foe. If Captain Amazing has just exerted his Amazing Strength on some henchman, that henchmen should go [i]flying[/i]. And the distance should increase as you get more powerful -- so at level 10, Captain Amazing might only be able to knock a downed foe thirty or forty feet, but at level 40, he should knock his foes for three or four [i]city blocks[/i].
--
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--me
Sooo.. what do you prefer? Do you want a Power that has 2 toggle states... When its Enabled... all your Knockback powers turn to KnockDown?
I think CoH did a good thing with Dual Pistols, the Swap Ammo power. which gives you 3 powers. New players would get confused if there was just one power that can have 4 States. (but thats what a few of us were hoping for for Flight, Superspeed, etc...) I guess, if we can make new players understand that a single power can be pressed 4 consecutive times, and be able to visually indicate the powers current Progression, it would work. Then we wouldnt have to have 3 extra powers for such powers like Dual Pistols had for Swap Ammo (3 extra toggles). :)
Actually, I never really understood the wisdom of giving a melee-based class powers that caused them to move foes out of range. One power, sure, maybe as a "Get away from me, I need breathing room!" power, or a "You go over here" positioning power, but a [i]whole set[/i]???
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"My attention span doesn't wander. It takes long trips to exotic locales where it meets strange women that leave it crying and broken in the hot, hot sun."
--me
Something that annoys me about current games... "sniper" powers. If I pull out a sniper rifle in another MMO, I'm only going to do, at most, 25% of my target's health bar in damage. A sniper rifle that ineffective would be taken off the market.
If I'm going to go through the trouble of a charge-up attack, a set-up attack, or something similar in range and effect, I want that sucker to DROP a henchman or villain/lieutenant in ONE SHOT. It might not drop a supervillain... but it should end anything less.
Of course, such an attack should have a high prerequisite cost as well as a frustratingly long cooldown.
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"My attention span doesn't wander. It takes long trips to exotic locales where it meets strange women that leave it crying and broken in the hot, hot sun."
--me
Odd...,
- ...I felt pretty weak using Footstomp until I slotted it to do Knockback - then, not only did my character look strong, but the result of my using that power -WAS- epic!...enemies were blasted back by the sheer explosive power of my hero! :D
- If you don't like Knockback...why would you play a Super Strength character? O.o?? That's like being disappointed with an Energy Blaster or Hydro Blaster doing Knockback - it's WHAT they -DO-! Of course, even Super Strength characters can 'hold back'...
- ...it's called 'Jab'... ^_^
Yes, please!
Well...,
- ...because the best kind of damage mitigation that's out there, aside from a controller holding a mob, is knocking your opponent a long way sideways. Sure, I know...there's lots of groups that love their tank to 'herd' mobs because they enjoy shooting fish in a barrel and loath Knockback...but that wasn't my play style.
- I wanted to be strong, not just have some vague allusion to strength while clobbering the opposition...only to see them get knocked -NOWHERE-. That's not 'Super Strength'...that's 'Super Flimsy' - if you want mobs rooted to the spot, you don't want a Super Strength character...you're looking for some kind of Earth Controller...
- For the record, yes...when CoT comes out, I will most likely be making a Super Strength character and, yes, my character -WILL- be doing Knock Back. Complaints?...see the response above...find a Controller and, no, I don't have any problem soloing. Why? It's only weak characters that need to band together... ^_^
If they allow...,
- ...for changes in the animation in order to reflect the Knock Down/Knock Back status...sure. I felt that the original animation for Punch and Haymaker were adequate for Knock Down...but not the alternate sweeping punches, those I felt should have done Knock Back. Just consider Air Superiority as the default example...
Well, on some builds.. like Tanks, Brutes, etc... with Willpower, if you knock them back allot, your defense drops down since there is a -ToHit Debuff you no longer have. If the enemy also has a ranged attack, you will most likely suffer much more damage compared to those enemies being in Melee range. This was one reason why tanks didn't appreciate when blasters would knockback hards of enemies away from them. If the tank didnt Immediately Run back to the middle of the enemies, (especially lower levels), the tanks health would suffer, and possibly be killed, if not experienced enough to know to run next to the Higest level emeny 1st. :(
Assuming, of course...,
- ...said build was reliant upon using such toggle powers, which (...fortunately...) I never did. My 50th Brute didn't worry about opponents being Knocked Back at range. While they were flying through the air, landing on the ground and spending time getting back up...their total damage was a grand total of "0". Not to mention, ranged damage had a propensity to do far less than melee damage...so not much loss there, plus (...like I said...) just because I knocked my opponents back didn't mean they were safe - my Brute built Fury through a Hurl, Laser Beam Eyes and Energy Torrent attack chain so distance was no safety net for them. They could hit me (...after they got up...), I didn't mind - I could take their vastly inferior ranged damage (...helping build Fury in the process...), my return fire was far more superior...
- Still, there are those who think it's a Tanks (...or Brutes...) 'role' to be a 'meat shield'...I never subscribed to that kind of thinking... ^_^
Hell, if two enemies are in a line, it should drop them both!
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This summarizes my hopes and dreams for CoT. Check it out if you'd like.
I can relate. my level 50 Fire/Kin Corruptor could Tank an ITF.
But, I was kinda talking about the tough road before 50. ;)
There's a big divide, I've noticed, between what characters can do and what it looks like they can do. Meaning powers "that feel powerful" are, to a large degree, more a matter of animation and sound effects than it is of the power's numerical characteristics.
The customizable animations that the MWM devs have talked about would shift some of that back to us, at least in the sense that if you hate the "wave my foot in your face" animation of the old MA Storm Kick, you wouldn't use it in the first place.
The thing to watch for will be if too many people wind up selecting all the same animations for their powers or if no one at all selects a particular animation.
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I played a lot of blasters so knockback never really bothered me. Even with my tanks, I just loved the epic feel of knocking a target back. Still I know it did bother many players. I like the idea of toggled powers or modifiable powers. Kinda like having two sets one for soloing and one for teaming. Well similarly having some settings for knockback when you just want that epic feel and then some for knockdown or whatever else they build. Kinda like pulling your punches as a good guy trying not to put your fist through a target. Of course, that could be a sic animation for the gore happy player that enjoys just that much "realism". And yes I'm using that term pretty loosely.
I just love the idea of multiple settings for a power, depending on the need/want. Now that's customization! Good for team play, solo, rp, etc!
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
To reprise the old argument from the COH Forums, knockback hardly bothered anyone on teams -- [i]when it was single-target.[/i]
[b]AREA[/b] knockback could get annoying quickly, but [i]one guy[/i] getting knocked back just meant that teams should understand the "you break it, you buy it" philosophy and let the character who knocked that foe back finish him. Or let the Blasters take care of him. Or ignore him entirely -- he'll return to the Tanker in a few seconds and die in the waves of AoEs.
Every once in a while someone would notice single-target knockback and complain about it -- often embarrassing themselves in the process. A Blaster I ran would sometimes one-shot a minion with Aim, Build-Up, and Sniper Blast, flinging the now-defeated body backward, and occasionally someone would fume that I had knocked him out of the AoEs.
"But, he's [i]dead.[/i]"
"It doesn't matter -- my AoE is more efficient if it hits more guys."
"But, I defeated him. If the power didn't [i]have[/i] knockback, he would [i]still have been dead[/i] before your AoE."
"Yeah, but my AoE would have gotten him."
"Are you saying you don't want anyone else on the team to [i]attack[/i] anyone?"
"It doesn't matter -- knockback is bad!"
Captain of Phoenix Rising
*snerks* Hee-hee! ^_^
- Yeah, some folks had a hard time understanding the concept that a defeated foe wasn't going to be contributing anything to anyone. I use those times to inquire if the contentious 'hero-in-question' was having doubts regarding their loyalties and was considering 'going rogue'...
- "So, you're buddies now with these Malta goons...right, Tundra? I didn't know you were so concerned about their well-being..."
After watching some hulk cartoon it got me thinking that super strength should have more than just some punches and stomps. A quick look at the hulk's combat shows that other popular moves that could be good is a shoulder charge, body slam, and my favorite the gamma clap. City of Heroes version of super strength had the clap but overall always felt a little tame for me after all the ultimate move was a stomp. I would expect that as a rank 2 or 3 move.
Probably caught it from Bio Armor.
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That sounds like energy melee more than any other power set - which was originally designed as a blaster secondary. Proximity is *not* desired for blasters that want to attack at range and *avoid* staying too long in the melee range of the enemies. Whenever I could go one on one with an enemy, an energy punch followed by snipe proved surprisingly satisfying. (With decent defense, I could sometimes get away with it with an extra minion or two picking on me.)
I will concede they could have altered the set when porting it to melee classes, but should they really have taken out one of energy melee's key features for people who don't like it but could easily choose from any of the other less knockback oriented sets?
I think a solution might be as simple as a button or toggle - to switch between all knockback. no knockback and only knockback on powers designed for it. Just a thought, anyway.
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
As another of the posters stated, please try to avoid using generalizations. I disliked KB sometimes and relied on it others. A lot of the issue is reliability. If you KNOW your power does KB then you can use that as an added effect the same as you might use DoT or a debuff.
If your character is a melee guy and there is a KB generator in the team then the two of them need to work things out between you. I have been on teams where the other players PRAISED me for being the 'KB in good ways' guy. You fall into a rhythm when things go well. I had chat binds to tell the team when I was going to launch a power wave and pile everyone into the corner. Then the melee guys could wade in and finish up. It's called teamwork and it's a wonderful thing.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
THIS!
I can remember teams when knockback was invaluable for protecting players that couldn't handle the hits and grouping targets together in corners. It has it's place just like melee or any other combat style. Good teamwork made it much more fun!
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
And I'm looking at it from the opposite angle. I like to play the tank, and the tank in CoH didn't have the fast-move-to-target power that CO does -- in fact, if you were playing a Stone/Stone tank, and had your rock form up, the guy with the KB power effs you every time he lets fly.
"Excuse me, but [b]WHY DID YOU JUST KNOCK ALL MY TARGETS AWAY FROM ME?!?[/b]"
This usually led to a partial or complete wipe. For every person who knows their powers and knows their tactics there are three n00bs who wouldn't know tactics if it snuck up behind them and ambushed them in a dark alley. I got tired of dealing with these idiots, to the point that if there was a storm controller or defender on the team, I left immediately.
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"My attention span doesn't wander. It takes long trips to exotic locales where it meets strange women that leave it crying and broken in the hot, hot sun."
--me
No he does not. The guy with the AREA knockback power does, but those were a minority of knockback powers in the game. This is an important distinction to make and one knockback-haters seem to have trouble making.
Well, yeah, if you didn't have aggro locked down, I guess it would. Were you playing a lot of Willpower tanks? Willpower's short-duration aggro aura (1.25 seconds) would allow the enemies to re-aggro before returning to the Tanker. But Stone Armor's aggro aura had 13.6 seconds of taunt, and Invulnerability had 17 seconds of taunt. That was enough to let the enemies stand up and return to the Tanker, unless someone was deliberately spamming AREA knockback powers, in which case, if the team's offensive output didn't defeat foes in 13-17 seconds, the Tanker would lose aggro.
See here: http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/archetype.php?at=5#Tanker_Defense
Should we also have been ditching teams with Willpower Tankers?
Captain of Phoenix Rising
Ever take a high level energy blaster to a low level area and nuke 20 mobs? That's what epic felt like. :D
Seriously though, I'd like some scaling in 'epicness' and visual effects as you get higher level, but not so much that every mob you hit ragdolls away into the distance or atomises.
Oh...ragdoll is a MUST HAVE though; when CoH introduced ragdoll I was ridonculously happy.
Ragdolls at times were so funny, like having them go flying over a balcony after a crane kick never got old, or blasting someone so hard they ended up getting stuck in a wall in a weird pose, made me laugh alot at times.
Although knockback also had the issue of sometimes enemies that were still alive being stuck in a wall and you not being able to hit them and yet they could still damage you did get annoying at times, so collision detection was a bit hit and miss in COH although I'm sure with COT it'll be done much better.
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