In the past few thread "discussions" I've been a part of, I've noticed how conveniently Power Pools have come to the rescue as a potential compromise between competing perspectives.
Before I can get to that, I do have one side request, that acquisition of actual transport powers in the game (Flight, Speed, jumping, gliding, swinging, whatever) follows the Champs model (having it's own "power point" achieved at a particular level, separate from normal powers progression), and that transport powers get their own slots (if such a system is still involved) incrementally as the character levels
With this in mind, and my own hopes for Titans, I'd like to propose a reframing of the Power Pool concept (though, in essence, fulfilling the same role they had in City Of...)
Power Pools = Semi-Freeforming
Essentially, I see Power pools becoming a means of evolving each character beyond their core AT, and enabling some measure of "free-form" development for players.
In Titans, power pools will function as divergent paths of traditional development, within certain parameters, rather than "knock off" versions of other powers.
As such, the powers available to the player will often function as well (baring restriction) as an equivalent level power in a traditional set. (or have their effectiveness scaled based on AT... depending on how it works out most effectively in game, re: QoL)
Pools will first become available at level 6 (like original COX), with the first to abilities (rank 4 equivalent), with third and fourth powers in the pools available at level 14 and 22 ((similar to COX) & rank 6)
In Titans, Powerpools will encompass the actions of the normal AT sets more closely, so there will be a variety of new sets, including Defense, Melee, Ranged, Buff, Debuff and Control power pools in addition to thematic pools such as Healing, Stealth, Sidekick, Detective, etc.
I would like to see each "standard" power pool have a fair collection of representative powers (though perhaps still less potent than a true power set), but lack the quirky, clever, or otherwise unique abilities that make full power sets stand out
(for example, the "Control" pool, would have a single target soft control, single target ranged attack, single target hard control, and AOE soft control (damage/effect flavor dependent on how powers end up working, with animations variable)... but it would lack a mass hard control or the ability to layer/stack controls)
Theme sets, though, should function like truncated True power sets, in that their powers and power effectiveness should be equivalent and self contained. (essentially, Theme Sets should encourage investment in the whole set, rather than Cherry picking a single power from the set)
Like in CoX, Titans will allow players to choose multiple power pools, but will limit players (to balance the increased effectiveness of PP powers) in certain ways:
[list][*]Players will be locked out from choosing PPs of the same type as their Primary Powerset
[*]PPs of the same type as a character's secondary Powerset will be less effective.
[*] later abilities must be "unlocked" ( must own p1 or 2, to purchase 43, must own 2 set powers to unlock p4)
[*]Players may only choose two power pool sets.[/list]
(Additionally, it might be necessary to further manage effect layering by scaling effects based on AT, but I'd rather see as little of that as possible, since AT stats will likely help to manage such abuses naturally)
By evolving the Power Pool concept into something more like a "Prestige Class", players are better able to create the character they've always envisioned (like a Blast/(De)Buff character who takes up a melee pool and a defense pool to be a trick archer with martial arts abilities)
While also allowing the development team to create uniquely focused "thematic sets" who's abilities would be difficult to translate into a full set, but are desirable to the community (a Range/Mezz/ Control hybrid called "gadgets", a "probability manipulation" that has one-shot/temporary boosts to abilities or auras that enable more frequent inspiration drops, or a "Sidekick" set that enables the player to have one minion/protege/girlfriend/familiar, without having their whole character revolve around manipulating "pets")
Granted, such a potential to break the AT system would need a bit of managing and testing....
But the Core Concept.... I think... could truly feel like an evolution from the City of games, without removing or adding systems players are already familiar with.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
and, uh..... even if you hate the idea....
as long as we still have power pools... can we get a 'sidekick' power pool?
P1 summon one melee helper
P2 click aoe, improves the defenses of affected pets for some time
P3 upgrade helper with powerful ranged attack
P4 toggle, +acc and +dmg for allies
sort of a mini pet set with some leadership love ;P
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
sounds like a solid idea that adds a bit more to the different combination of powers that a player's character could have. And if the power pools are sets are made somewhat relevant, aka, not too watered down to the point of being something only uses when waiting for the rest of the powers to recharge, then it can add greater possibilities of flavors even if one build a say, for example, not saying it's only one or insinuating it's only one, a SS/Invul equivalent tank. With different pool powers it could have a totally different feel even though the basis of ss/invul is the same.
And not saying the other extreme of saying make pool powers absolutely powerful. Making that perfectly clear before someone try and assume that is what it means.
Interesting...
Although I would probably extend it so that you cannot choose a power pool that you share with either your *primary* or *secondary*. The reason why I bring this up is to stop the "scrapper" (melee/defence) from picking up another defence set... which could well jump them *above* "tankers" for tanking ability.
Of course, this is all open for balance reasons. Tis just something that I realised when you mentioned a defence pool (because the scrapper could take it, but the defence primary couldn't), and that it *shouldn't* be a "weaker" version of the normal sets.
yeah, my "solution" would be to let you take it, but for minimal results (where as a blaster would get much more "punch" out of it)
alternatively, would be to keep defense toggles as "exclusive qualities" of full sets, so the power pools might be temp buffs which might function as a solid "oh sh@T button" for scrappers, but not provide a significant boost to over-all defense...
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I suggested multiple times that I thought the squishie ATs in CoH should've gotten the better numbers for the Defense Powers (Tough/Weave).
Though I wouldn't care to see power pools not be worth it. I hope the power pools are all worth taking and that a power pool attack is worth using in place of one of your Primary/Secondary Attacks.
Never understood making pool powers weak. It still required a power pick, slots, endurance cost etc. Concerns re:stacking to self cap tend to fall apart where things like set bonii, global slots, insps come into play.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
Pretty much, Joe... in fact, I think my ONLY concern is in the excessive layering of toggles or passives...
there aren't a heck of a lot of passive boosts in the game, as it was... and could easily just "not exist" in the Pools...
...and toggles have always been mitigated by endurance cost.... so something as simple as some sort of semi-exponential scale on active toggles would solve the problem (having the "normal amount" of toggles on would be a "normal" endurance burden... but start going over that, and each new one dramatically drains your endurance...
something like that would make even a tanker who wanted to talk an additional defensive power pool (if it were possible) think twice about taking toggles (there are better ways of being virtually unkillable for 10 seconds, then trying to run 2 or 3 extra toggles :P)
My Ideal would be to have power pools be as effective as standard trees, just truncated (skipping "weak" powers, and lacking access to "super awesome" powers.... hopefully sitting comfortably in the "bread-and-butter" sweetspot, so they integrate well into your normal list of used abilities...)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
And still have awesome animation options!
Air Superiority was not a weak attack. It was definitely on par with the tier 1 and 2 attacks from the main power-sets.
Air Superiority had good mitigation (that didn't work on AVs all that well) but it's damage was not good enough to put into anyone's DPS attacks especially any set that used a weapon.
I liked Air Superiority on my tank for its Knockdown component.
More to the point of this thread, though: I'm hoping that, IF we have something like a Power Pool, that it consists mainly of middling powerful generic powers that can be used to "round out" a Character Concept. From an RP standpoint, your character has this single amazing ability that you've learned to adapt to different situations to make it more useful. I see that as how level progression and the gaining of new 'powers' works, anyway. But at some point, whether its obvious right off the bat or you eventually realize it as you pursue crime-fighting/criminal career, you have a persistent weakness. You're a thinking person, right? So you add something to your suit or your skills to offset it. It's not what makes you Super, that's your Power. Its just a stop gap where you have a weakness. It could be something that any other human could use or learn that, by itself, wouldn't make them Super. Think Black Canary's martial arts. And it may not be something easily accessible to the general population, like light-weight ballistic material for instance. That's what makes it "middling powerful."
As a kid, I used to ask: "Dad, why doesn't Superman just wear a lead lined suit? Then Kryponite couldn't hurt him either!" I got a lot of stern looks as a kid.
Why? Cause you're dad couldn't answer a simple physics question? :P
If superman wore a lead suit, it would protect him from kryptonite radiation, but it would also block out the solar radiation of our yellow sun, thus making him as weak, or weaker, than a normal person, and unable to use his powers to help people... if he could even lift the suit at all :P
And I like your Black Canary example.... except it's backwards...
In the way the game functions, she would be a martial artist, who Happens to also have the superhuman ability to sonic-scream.
her sonic scream is in no way "middling" compaired to her martial arts... but her actions as a super hero/vigilante revolve around her Martial Skills, not her super powers.
Nightcrawler is another example.... he's primarily a martial artist... but he can ALSO whip out a sword from time to time.
Deadpool uses two guns, but he's also got a katana
Jean Grey's phoenix can use TK, Telepathy, AND light things on fire....
Spiderman is also predominantly a martial artist, but he can also use some control powers with his gadgets and even has some precognative powers that function as defense beyond his physical toughness.
Cyclops might use his optical beam constantly, but he is a dominant martial artist as well.
SOME characters have "this single amazing ability"....that they have learned to hone over the years.. and come to a realization that they have weaknesses they must shore up...
But MOST characters do not have one single thing that makes them "super" (in terms of the comics), and, for many characters, these "other" qualities do not fit nicely into the Archtype system.
Superman might have been weak to kryptonite.... but when he wasnt, he had awesome defense and strength(Tanker or Brute), plus two ranged attacks (Ranged power pool)
I dont think anyone would argue that Kryptonian heat-vision was "middlingly" powerful... or in any way "shoring up a weakness"
For SOME characters, for RP reasons, yes, they might "upgrade their suit" or "get some better guns"... but honestly, that's a pretty limited group. Most superheroes "endure" their weaknesses, they don't protect themselves from them (unless they're batman or Captain atom, where weaknesses define their character)
But there is a HUGE segment of the heroic community who have secondary mutations, melee and ranged arsenals, various forms, and those (like Black Canary) who view their "super power" as a last line of defense, and NOT the defining feature of their super hero career.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Greetings and hallucinations to one and all! Ranged DPS comment/question; CoH, may it live on, came out with a slew of great new content before its untimely demise. One I really enjoyed was the Beam Weapon Powers that looked like energy weapons from a Steam Punk graphic novel. Now, while I understand © issues involved, are there plans for a powerset that is similar, if possibly better, than what we had in the last months of CoH? Please? Pretty please?
Capt Odee, saving the city one click at a time.
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
By this model, there would be no Primaries or Secondaries. All powers would be Power Pools.
[b]Control Power Pool[/b]
-- Single Target Soft Mez
-- Single Target Hard Mez
-- AoE Soft Mez
-- AoE Hard Mez
-- Pet
Done. Clone at will.
Defensive powers all become the same, because who needs Primaries and Secondaries, when the whole thing is Pools? Willpower is the same as Invulnerability is the same as Energy Aura (it's just special effects, folks!) is the same as Fiery Aura, etcetera.
ANYONE can be a 'healer' because everyone has access to the 'healing' Power Pool, which means that all 'healing' is the same. No need for Dark or Radiation or Thermal or Kinetics or Pain or Empathy, because they're 'just buffs now'. If if anyone wants to Heal, they can take the Pool. You can call out for a 'healer' and get a Sword & Board Scrapper named 'The Surgeon' who, when asked about 'healing' says, "Oh, I've got Aid-Other, we're good."
I'm not trying to say that there should not be Power Pools, but they should not replace 'real' Primary and Secondary powersets. They should not be an excuse to pull 'hit-point buffing' powers out of the 'buffing' sets and declare, "There, now Buffs are Pure!" as if that were desirable.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Uh.... pretty sure I suggested that they don't.
Power pools are truncated and provide a "taste" of the full sets (as per my original post)
Pools lack flavor (as you've said, but utterly missed the implication of) and they are smaller. amongst themselves, they only have animation to distingish any one "melee pool power 1" from any other one...
But Power sets are DEFINED by their "flavor". because animations are disentangled from the underlying mechanics, only the mechanics distinguish any one melee set from any other melee set. so a "generic" melee set, while equally/compairably "powerful" would never be the same as a true set.
do you not see how Power sets of 8 powers with their own unique playstyles and abilities would never, COULD never be replaced by 4 fairly-potent-but-generic power pool powers?
As for your side comments about "healing"
For the record have never been against the healing capabilities of sets like Darkness. or radiation or storms.... or "hp buffing" in a similar subordinate capacity. My problem in the other thread was simply in the creation of "healing sets", the contrariness to the genre, and the perception in the player base they caused.
Taking out SOME of the healing powers of a set like Empathy (replacing them with other buffs that align with the core set) and then Improving the Medicine Power Pool to be a viable collection of powers for anyone who wants to turn their buff set into a healing set is HARDLY "genericing." buff sets...
and if a scrapper wants to get all the healing power from the power pool, they will never be a competent buffer, but what would be the harm in letting them be a "Healer"?
if that's what they want, why would you besmirch them.
Plenty of Players in COX claimed to be "healers" because they had the Medicine power pool, I hardly think it's good logic to create a straw man hypothetical that has nothing to do with the discussion, just to attack it.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
they had a beam-weapon power pool? Cool!
though, so that we're clear... in Titans, the "look" of a power can be changed dramatically.
there isn't so much a "sword" set... as there is a "slashing melee" set, with various animations that can be used with it (claws, swords, knives, etc)
so your beam weapons might simply be a "ranged crushing set" underneith, with an animation suite that looks like steam-punk guns firing beams.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Fireheart kind of illustrates my point, Ghost. Perhaps he's taken it beyond what you're advocating. I see this model leading toward horrible mish-mashes of powers as people scramble for the most powerful combinations.
Some of your examples are valid, others I disagree with. Nightcrawler and Spiderman are not martial artists. NC is a teleporter and acrobat...that has learned how to use a sword. Now, Spiderman has superhuman speed and strength along with the wall-crawling abilty. These are all stemming from his primary powerset, those of a spider. Then he built some web-shooters to give himself an additional edge. But still very much within his THEME.
As many characters evolved, like Ol' Spidey, their secondary power may have come to dominate their primary as far as usefulness. Black Canary is actually a good example of that. But if you take away Cyclops' optic blast he's not super, he's just a guy with punches and kicks. He has also been trained as a tactician. ::shrug:: Note, however, that I think it's perfectly reasonable for him and BC to add fisticuffs to their arsenals. That's exactly what I was talking about.
I could make your argument, too. Take Captain America, his primary powers stem from the Super Soldier Serum. Strength, Speed and Endurance. Originally, he was given a shield as much as a symbol as to protect him from ranged attacks. He couldn't even throw the original, it was shaped like, well, a shield. (heck, they even got that right in the movie). Over the years, he has become a nearly invincible martial artist. And with better technology (and more invested writers) he was able to integrate it so well into his repertoire that it was almost inseperable from his style. but it's always, ALWAYS, in keeping with the theme.
I almost hate to start in on Supes. If he weren't so danged iconic. He was the origin of the whole genre, for cripes sakes. I gotta respect that. However, he was not initially able to fly or use heat vision, nor was he susceptible to Kryptonite. (Or at least, nobody had heard of it) "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound". But c'mon, his powers are all over the place. And the yellow sun thing is bollocks as a power source. How does it work in deep space/other solar systems, then? or underground? I know, I know, "He's spent his whole life bathed in it...living battery...blah blah." It's more a justification than a plausible basis. You have to admit. The solar battery thing is also a later addition to his lore, BTW.
I don't want to see what I consider poor writing or story building built into the game, just because there are plenty of examples of that in the 75 years of the genre. And I absolutely reserve the right to have more respect for a well-considered, thematically cohesive build, than I do for the player who has crafted the most powerful Captain Everything that the game allows.
Honestly, we're making suggestions to the Devs. I really don't feel compelled to convince you, Ghost. And you have utterly failed to convince me that the model you propose would be good for the game. So what? You shouldn't care anything more for my opinion than I do for yours. If you're okay with franken-builds, then I'm okay with you having one. I prefaced my initial opinion with "I hope..." And that's all I'm doing, hoping.
basically, my vision of the titan power pool system is a balance point between a true free-form build (ala champs), and all the problems therin, and the necessarily limiting nature of archtypes.
I believe this was the intended purpose of power pools to begin with, but the choice was made, in cox, to make them universally subbordinate which, for a long time, made players cherrypick the few powers that held a clear advantage (i.e. do exactly what you fear change would do)
I think you're entitled to prefer and respect well thought out characters over franken-builds or fotm builds or any other sort of built, reguardless of how power pools function.
but many perfectly viable thematic builds require more than what archtypes provide.
...and that's not a bad thing. it's just providing more versitility and choice to players.
some will ALWAYS view this as nothing more than a mechanical process to master... thats why fotm builds existed in cox. the mentality is inherent in gaming communities, reguardless of what systems are in place.
you will not save yourself from having to disrespect high function, poor theme characters simply by devaluing a players ability to diversify or alter their characters...
....you'll just have fewer unique configurations that come together through the creativity and cleverness of their creator.
it's easier to prevent garishness in black and white..... but it dramatically limits the paintings you can create.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Well then, I would respectfully submit that we're close enough to agreement to leave it at that. Too much energy is spent in these forums defending prejudice instead of looking for workable compromise. And for the record, I have always preferred the challenge of a limited pallette. :D
Actually, I can see your point. From what I've heard so far it's already going to be pretty free form as far as theme. As I currently understand it, with the ability to seperate effect (damage/mez/buff, etc.) from animation (fire/ice/electricity etc.) I think folks will most likely default to a single theme. Power balance is bound to be an on-going concern, of course, but not part of this discussion. I think I was still kind of in that mind-set.
I'll just say that in CoH there were actually occasions in the upper levels where I had to hunt through the powers that were available to find something that was useful, and was still, somehow, in some tangential way, related to my character concept. I hope (there's that word again) that this won't happen in CoT.
Yep, I hate that feeling too.... I always felt that power pools were supposed to aalleviate that feeling.... but never succeded.
I'm sort of an odd duck. I really like power choice diversity options. systems that allow me to shape my character around their theme or build complex themes...
and, at the same time i always hate having tons of powers...i'm big on on just .3 or 4 powers that require management. :P
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
One of the biggest differences between games like Champions (the PnP not the MMO) and the comics is that the characters weren't iconic. You got experience, you spent it, you got more stuff. Players of RPGs all the way back to D&D have done this. They EXPECT it. This is something that makes some comics (many of them really) kind of frustrating.
Captain America started with a cloth suit and eventually wound up with a chain mesh for protection. Not a game-breaking upgrade but a good one. He also developed a metric assload of Skills to use including (and I bet this was tough) computer security and hacking.
Batman started with tons of stuff and just got MORE stuff. More skills too as the writers learned more about science and criminology.
Spiderman is strong to be sure but he's also developed a unique fighting style, almost his own Martial Art, around his abilities. Nightcrawler did the same thing. The HAD to develop their own styles because few teachers can cling to walls or teleport. I can see Spidey never going beyond his cloth suit because his secret ID was paramount and he didn't want to rely on someone else to make his stuff.
My Martial Artist in Champions developed a set of electrified knucks for punching hard targets like robots, guys in armor and inanimate objects. I saw Batman using the same thing on Justice League years later. Makes sense to me that a guy with all those wonderful toys would develop something that made sense. The armored suits of the movies were the same way.
I've always been one of those players that had no problem with a character having new stuff if it made sense, wasn't OP and could be explained reasonably. Like being able to build temp powers at the Base for fighting the one Big Boss.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
agreed on all counts Luvr....
i guess i just feel like there's a better balance for pools, that prevents them from being 'op', and yet still allows them to be true abilities (rather than knock offs for 'flavor', or a dumping ground for abilities 99% of characters will desire/need (ala transportation power sets))
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
there is.
make then give stuff that no other power set will give (if going for the "similar strength as normal abilities" route)
If I understand the idea correctly, it looks a lot to me like making power pools resemble CoX's ancillary power pools more closely, which by design gave you access to a modest selection of powers that went outside your existing options, and were balanced accordingly. In general I think that's a good thing and you shouldn't have to wait till the "epic" levels to get that functionality.
I'm not sure how I feel about locking pools from the ATs they mirror. This somewhat depends on how the primary and secondary powersets look. If some of them contain a grab-bag of powers already then players may be able to double up on certain effects whether they are intended to be the main idea of their powersets or not. I'm reminded of certain blaster combinations like ice/ice/flame that had access to a ton of ST holds (4 IIRC) that could practically put a controller to shame in that department; it always kinda bugged me that blasters with a bunch of ST holds could get another from several of their APPs while controllers actually had more limited options here (a ST melee hold in Stone Mastery I think?). However, this totally depends on what other powersets look like.
Also not sure if I would require powers from early in the set to be taken to access the later ones. I mean, if the idea is to grant a broader range of concepts then why not just allow the player to take the particular powers that meet that criterion? In general I don't like this kind of prerequisites as a balancing tool. They tend to be inconsistent in their impact (some builds can get something really useful from the prerequisites while others can't) and I find the levels at which you get the prereqs to be unsatisfying. If the pools don't grant the more game-changing powers of the full sets then I don't see it as necessary.
Overall though, I really like the principle and hope we have the option to tweak builds in this manner.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/compilation-information-city-titans](Unofficial) Compilation of Information on City of Titans[/url]
Fair to say, but that clearly wasn't their only purpose in the previous game, and I like the quality they had to add features to your power suite you wouldn't have normally in your AT, as it allowed for greater uniqueness and personalization of one's character (and the ability to more accurately depict some character ideas in the game) will still having the solid, defined framework of AT's as a backbone.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Absolutely, if you want a fireball shooting character, take a fireball set. If you're a katana / regen scrapper then how did you get that fireball? Maybe you build something with gadgets/science that gives you a fireball but I'd be tempted to think you probably wouldn't.
Power pools - travel, tp friend/foe, medecine, more inventory space, resistance for defence based toons and vice versa.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
So... you're saying it makes no sense (in terms of the genre lore) forsomeone who can generate chi energy (iron fist, ryu/kefor to be able to utilize melee combat AND shoot out 'fireballs'?
it makes no sense for a melee character like spiderman to use webbing to lock town a bad guy?
it is questionable that a super soldier like captain america can both throw a shield and a haymaI juser?
...it's impossible for a character who weilds ice daggers and has ice armor....to throw a shard of ice at an enemy...?
i just don't think that logic flies.
NOW, that said, there will always be a collection of 'dominant traits' (primary and secondary power sets).... but powerpools allow players to account for quirks in their character, deviations from a direct archetype that, while not enough to redefine the dominant traits, the core archetype.... Do flesh out the concept beyond what would otherwise be possible in game.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
If there's not a fireball pool.. or an iceshard throwing power pool, it's all a bit moot.
In that case medecine, crafting, flight etc.
If we're having fireball and iceshard throwing power pools then also fine.
Say Carp Weapons comes out and you are on your martial arts scrapper. Alongside the new set is a powerpool and rather than make a new character with the Carp Weapons / Carp Armour sets you decide to upgrade your current character. You drop fireball and take carp attack, a short range machine-gun like power that fires fish at your enemy.
I wouldn't try and add any "logic" to this tho, or consider that one option is fleshing out the game any more than the other one is.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
Here is what I'd like to see as far as Power Pools and Epic Power Pools go.
Power Pools
Concealment - abilities to stealth your character and others around you.
Fighting - abilities that enhance your character's natural fighting abilities and defenses.
Leadership - abilities that enhance the performance of an entire group.
Presence - abilities that make your character more of a threat than some other character to draw attention off of that character.
Epic Power Pools
Body Mastery - abilities that enhance your physical being allowing you to temporarily/permanently increase your attributes.
Weapon Mastery - abilities that give you better attacks and damage with weapons.
Power Mastery - abilities that give you temporary/permanent boosts to your primary and/or secondary powers.
Basically let's keep the super powers Super and the power pools something everybody can use that just enhances your character. This way we don't have to try to have any modifiers for certain AT's to be able to use Power Pools and Epic Power Pools. Everybody has access to the same abilities and enhances their characters in the same way. Also you get to choose two Power Pools and one Epic Power Pool.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
The way I look at it is that Primary powersets are the 20, Secondary Powersets are the 18, Mastery Powersets are the 17, and then that leaves Pool Powersets bringing up the rear as the 15. So the relative strength levels between them would be 20:18:17:15 in relative power terms. That means that a Pool Power that is the equivalent of a Primary Power would be 15/20=75% the power level of the Primary Power.
Pool Powers are the freeform, "unrestricted" Powers that are available to all archetypes and all Powerset combinations, with the only limitation being on how my Power Pools you can diversify into. In other words, the City of Heroes structural model.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I don't understand your numbers, red.....
for me, personally..I'd.rather not see any sort of 'epic' pools. We'll get something similar as the level cap increases...but iI'd rather just have them be evolutions/expansions of the primary/secondary sets then something totally separate...
...I'd such rather see all 'totally seperate ' sets be power pools.... whether they come default, are dlc, or unlocked...
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
75% seems about right. I would rather avoid the Prereq system CoH started with and eventually discarded though. I'd like to try having many of the 'signature' powers in Pools because it represents something ANYONE can have.
Movement Powers
Basic melee combat (this is how Cyclops got Martial Arts)
Basic ranged combat (Batman carrying a gun in his early years)
Basic Resistance (Captain America and his mail suit/ Batman and his movie armor)
Basic Defense (anyone who ever dodged ever)
Basic psychic resistance (all of the X-Men and their mental training, any Zen Master concentrating etc)
Out of combat skills like detective work, resources and vehicles. This is where Tony Stark gets his funds from.
Just about any character in comics that has been around for any real length of time has had opportunities to expand beyond their AT. Remember Tony Stark learning self-defense from Captain America? No way a powered-armored anything gets 2-3 basic melee moves from his regular AT choices. Many characters that have NOT expanded their powers or gear over the years (Daredevil, Spiderman, Captain America etc) have instead developed resources, contacts and skills. But these are things that are universal to everyone. This sounds like Pool Powers to me.
But many 'iconic' characters would have choices but not take them. Imagine Ben Grimm wearing a Kevlar suit. Really? What's the point? Or Spiderman driving a car? They tried that once to sell toys...didn't work too well. But they WOULD take Contacts, Informants, Friends and whatever. If the Movement Powers were available early then some of these things could follow later.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I'd like movement powers to be a type of pool powers, and one pool power be selectable at character creation. Characters whose concepts include enhanced movement would be able to start with enhanced movement, but others would pick a martial arts move, a leadership skill, or something appropriate to their character. Spider-man chooses wall running, Superman chooses flight or superleap depending on the version, and the Thing doesn't take a travel power even later on, but instead gets combat piloting to aid the team. Having movement come from the same source as other "extra" abilities makes a choice like that possible.
At the end, CoH let players pick travel powers at level 4, which doesn't take long to achieve. But in my opinion, one minute of pretending to have a travel power is one minute too long, and having an NPC essentially say, "Oh, you have a spider theme? I can teach you to climb a wall, it's easy!" is just lampshading the game's failure to simulate the superhero genre.
For me, personally... nothing but the transportation power itself ever made much sense to me in the transportation pools (hasten being the exception... but hasten itself could have been fitting for many non-superspeed concepts, and probably could have been part of it's own, unique, pool)
as such i'd much rather see transportation abilities separated from the pools, and function more like Champs (you get a free 'transport power point' at level N, only usable for transport powers) and you can pump slots into it if you want.
the powers that came with transports could either be absorbed into other pools, or be the basis of new ones (or not carried over to titans, at all)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Current plans are along these lines (subject to change clause). Travel falls under the non-combat powers section.
So there may not be a set with say for Flight which also has "air superiority" in it because flight is part of the non-combat powers, and "air superiority" is a combat power. Instead, there may be tertiary / supplementary sets which revolve around movement concepts and allow for movement to occur in combat, but aren't used for general travel.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Excellent :D
yes, it would nice to have "super-speedsterish" thematic, but with teleport as a transportation power. (as an example)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Not arguing for or against anything in particular, but throwing something else out here. I would rather like the ability to tap into the transport pool more than once.
Consider: What is Batman's primary transportation mode? You might say Batmobile, but only because it's so iconic. He also uses what would be classified as "swinging" powers, and has any number of Bat-vehicles for air travel.
Captain America is kind of associated with a motorcycle, but he's also an expert pilot.
Wonder Woman has the invisible jet, but somewhere along the way acquired flight abilities. (can anyone explain that to me BTW?)
So, I'm just saying I'd rather not see the powers set up as "Here's your transportation slot. Pick one you like, because you only get one."
vehicles are awesome, and hopefully will find a space in the game... but i've always viewed those differently from "transport powers".... anyone can use a motorcycle, car, or jet... they aren't supernatural powers (like one might consider the "flight" component of Ironman's armor)
so there almost separate from the character completely. More like a temp power that one crafts, finds as a drop, or purchases from "the store" (In-game or MicTran)
That said, I think it was fine in Champs being able to acquire two transport powers, and I think it could work here, if desired.
I mean... Batman really uses "glide" more than anything... he uses his grapple gun to get vertical, but then glides down/around...
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Yeah this one is easy to get behind. Swinging is NOT the same as Wall-Crawling...both can be seen as movement powers. Maybe if we had a sort of 'noncombat movement' and 'combat movement'? I mean sure you see Batman and Spiderman attacking while swinging but it's usually a transition thing. They swing in, deliver a shot and then go into typical ground combat mode.
What if we replaced the Tram with a vehicle animation at first and then real vehicles later on after launch? My character takes Super Jump for movement but to 'fast-forward' (and get that REALLY super feeling) I hit my Long Range Travel Jump (tm) and get an animation of REALLY taking off then I land in the zone I was shooting for. My own travel power is more for moving around IN the zone than traveling across the city.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Yep!
we know that the "idea" currently is to have transports be "non-combat".....
and that "there may be tertiary / supplementary sets which revolve around movement concepts and allow for movement to occur in combat, but aren't used for general travel."
so I think this is a definite potential.
and it would be awesome to see some abilities that "move" you around the battlefield in various ways (like the dash powers in Champs, or the COX teleport attacks like Lightning Rod)....
so, have sets that "feel" like the various transport powers (hover combat?)..... but also unique "in combat" transport powers that may or may not have actual transportation analogues.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
There have been several "Wonder Woman"s in the DC universe. One of them (Artemis) even had Blond hair. Each Wonder Woman had slightly different abilities. Although, the lasso and what-not were rather consistent.
Wonder Woman's powers were upgraded to Superman-level by an origin retcon involving blessings from the gods at her birth from mud, so, it's magic. The magic may or may not be from her lasso, bracelets, tiara.
In the latest retcon (the 52) she's now a demi-god daughter of Zeus, so, Hercules-level.
Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
She become bullet proof too? :/
I refuse to acknowledge the boo52.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
You're not the only one.
I cant get behind this idea. As much as i will champion choices for the players, this will make everyone tankmages. And thats bad for the long term for this game.
If im a fire/em blaster id have access to a control powerpool that will give me holds that are as powerful as a controller?
No thanks.
My heart and head is still behind
Player Chosen:
Damage Type
Role
Character Animmation
Power FX
Dev Chosen:
Builds
Power Magnitude
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In the above the dev will tell you all the powers in your build:
Is it single target, is it a cone AoE, is it line of sight AoE, is it target radius AoE?
Is it melee range, is it medium range, is it long range?
Is it a damage attack, or a debuff attack?
Is it High damage, Medium Damage, Low Damage
All of the builds (lets say 4 builds per major role and two builds per minor role) would be pre-determined stem to stern by the devs as far as mechanics. No powers choice at all.
The player would then get to choose:
What type of damage does this build do? (maybe a choice of up to 2.. maybe 3 if they add another tier to the system through enhancements etc like CoH)
How does my character use these powers? (From their hands? From their heads? From a whip? From a staff?)
What do the FX look like (Are they beams of light? Do they look like fire? Are they liquid looking? Are they streams of kirby dots? Are they whips of translucent things? Are they rings?)
This means sure you can have a ranged character who shoots psychic flames.. or fire butterflies. And you can have a melee character who uses punches with bubbles of water around their fist or uses a big sword.
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Mechanically the builds could be the same. You choose the animation. If you want to hit like a ninja use the ninja animation set. You want to use melee guns to pistol whip get the pistol animation set. Want to use a staff for melee AND to shoot fire out of get the staff set.
This leads to a general predicability when you see the role and power-set coming out of any player character .. (if they shoot you with a long range AoE there's likely only one or two builds in the ranged DPS set that have the ability to do that) but does not limit player theme and choice. Also this lets the animators know exactly how to animate each potential power before releasing a new animation set. It lets the FX team know exactly which animations (melee, cones, ranged line, Ranged AoE etc) they need to create FX for. The expansion potential is unlimited and players can't complain about person X build being too powerful based on build alone.
Choice does not need to be freeform to be present for unique theme. I am specifically against any freeform mechanics.
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I'd also like to put my hat in the ring for special "archetype" builds that are not going to fit the animation/fx mold. Things like morphing, stretching, cloning (and other pets), power-stealing and the like can all be done as separate special archetypes available to players as long as you tell them the limits before hand.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I am not in favor of freeform generally but not to the point of a dev preset build template. I cherish making my own wacky builds and trying them out. Win or lose that is part of making it MY character.
-joe
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