Power origins with a meaning

56 posts / 0 new
Last post
Robertt Steel
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 01/29/2014 - 07:04
Power origins with a meaning

In CoH we had these "Origins" that were the source of our powers, they helped give more depth to characters stories however it only defined the type of enemies you would face and the type of enhancements you needed to buy or use.

My idea is to give a real meaning to the origins, we could give a purpose, a strength, a weakness, a natural ability
or some kind of difference between the other origins... This will add INCREASED immersive experience.

example:

Technology Origin:
Robot: (Immune to mind, toxic, atacks, no need to breathe, weak vs electricity, heat, strong vs phisical damage)
Equipped with increased senses such as: Night vision, Radar, bomb detector, xray vision.
Optional travel equipment: Jetpack, rocket boots, turbines, robotical wings, Leaping boots etc..

Power suit: (immune to electricity since suit absorbs it to power up, strong vs phisical damage, weak vs cold)
Equipped with increased senses such as: could be same as robot
Optional travel equipment: Could be same as robot

Cyborg: (increased stamina, atack speed and damage, Increased leaping and sprint abilities)
Equipped with increased senses: same as robot but at lesser degree
Optional travel equipment: same as robot plus vehicles

Natural Origin:
Alien: (naturally resistant to elements, weak vs Radiation)
Naturally increased senses: Increased smell, heat vision, increased hearing, danger sense (can detect concealed enemies).
Naturally equipped with: wings, super strong legs (imagine a satire's legs) that allows super speed or leaping or both, fins for improved swiming.

Naturally gifted human: (no special strenghts or weakneses)
Increased senses through training: Increased hearing, danger sense.
Can use equipment or vehicles to travel: Helicopter, motorcycle, jetpack, etc..

Supernatural Origin:
Sorcerer: (immune/strong to darkness, weak vs light)
Increased spiritual senses: Premonition (can detect enemies), Lightning sphere (creates a lightning sphere to see in the dark) danger sense.
Can use magic to travel: Fly, super speed, teletransportation.

Light Bearer: (Immune to dark, strong vs elements, weak vs radiation)
Increased spiritual senses: Profecy (can detect surrounding enemies) Ray of light (light from heavens light up the dark)
Divine protection (can sense concealed enemies).
Uses divine power to travel: Fly, super speed, teletransportation.

Of course, we would need to work on balance and complete the origins idea, but this is my suggestion.

NOTE: Travel powers, super powers, are not limited or locked for origins, only thing that changes is the name...
In example: Instead of "Night vision device" for a robot, It could be "Ray of Light" as for a Light Bearer...

What do you think about it?
Whats your suggestion about origins, strengths, weaknesses,senses and travel powers?

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 43 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
I think we've been talking

I think we've been talking about the "pros and cons" of weakness/advantage combos in several threads on this forum already including this one just today.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 52 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
This appears to be an

This appears to be an Advantage/Disadvantage system attached to Origins... I don't think I'd enjoy that.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 43 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Even if we were to ignore

Even if we were to ignore applying specific in-game weaknesses/advantages to Origins I still would not like to see Origins limited/restricted to specific powers, devices or travel types. Far from "INCREASED immersive experience" this would only serve to pigeonhole our characters into specific Dev-defined concepts.

What if I want to play a cyborg who gets his "superpowers" from the magical energies in his brain as opposed to any super-human features of his hardware? What if I want to play a demon who's been banished to Earth (without any supernatural powers) and must get by pretty much as a "normal" human might? What about a mutant like Magneto (more "Controller" like) versus a mutant like Wolverine (more "Scrapper" like)? I doubt those two would use the same type of devices or travel powers despite both of them being mutants.

Basically CoT needs to stick to the path CoH was following and let players define their own "Origins" as abstract roleplaying concepts instead of hardwired game categories. No character should have any limits on the use of any powers, costumes, devices or travel options regardless of their "Origin".

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Robertt Steel
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 01/29/2014 - 07:04
As I said, this idea needs

As I said, this idea needs some work, but this is not intended to limit the player, however, as an example, I would like to have a super powered robot...

As a Robot, why would I be needing to breathe? Or why would I be affected by psycic powers? Robots don't need oxigen, robots don't have a mind...

If you see it my way, devs would be limiting me of being a real robot if i need to suffer as a breathing life form with a mind...

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 43 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Robertt Steel wrote:
Robertt Steel wrote:

As I said, this idea needs some work, but this is not intended to limit the player, however, as an example, I would like to have a super powered robot...
As a Robot, why would I be needing to breathe? Or why would I be affected by psycic powers? Robots don't need oxigen, robots don't have a mind...
If you see it my way, devs would be limiting me of being a real robot if i need to suffer as a breathing life form with a mind...

What disadvantages do you propose your Robot suffer from to balance out your listed advantages of not being affected by air-borne or psi oriented attacks?

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Robertt Steel
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 01/29/2014 - 07:04
In addition to that, we could

In addition to that, we could make some combinations as the ones you posted Regarding the Cyborg with Magic powers, we could call them Hybrids and as such, they open up new freedom posibilities for your characters...

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 43 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Robertt Steel wrote:
Robertt Steel wrote:

In addition to that, we could make some combinations as the ones you posted Regarding the Cyborg with Magic powers, we could call them Hybrids and as such, they open up new freedom posibilities for your characters...

How many hundreds (or even thousands) of these unique Hybrid Origins could the playerbase come up with? It would ultimately be impossible for the game to describe all of these via in-game qualities. Why should the game even bother to try? If the game doesn't force my character concepts into a limited set of hardwired Origin choices I already have ultimate "freedom posibilities" by default.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Robertt Steel
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 01/29/2014 - 07:04
Well, in CoH we had SECONDARY

Well, in CoH we had SECONDARY powers so psy oriented people can use to destroy a robot....

Robots in example would be weak vs electrical atacks, maybe heat (machines don't work well under high heat conditions just as our PCs), also they could be weak vs power draining...

This opens up posibilities for everyone, just imagine what you could do with this... Epic teamwork battles... Later on the game we can aquire enhancements that could override our weaknesses....

Probably enhancements that override weaknesses but decreases some strengths...

These are just ideas, and I'm open for complement ideas just as yours!

Robertt Steel
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 01/29/2014 - 07:04
I edited main post, and

I edited main post, and placed a note that removes the lock among Origins.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 43 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Robertt Steel wrote:
Robertt Steel wrote:

Well, in CoH we had SECONDARY powers so psy oriented people can use to destroy a robot....
Robots in example would be weak vs electrical atacks, maybe heat (machines don't work well under high heat conditions just as our PCs), also they could be weak vs power draining...
This opens up posibilities for everyone, just imagine what you could do with this... Epic teamwork battles... Later on the game we can aquire enhancements that could override our weaknesses....
Probably enhancements that override weaknesses but decreases some strengths...
These are just ideas, and I'm open for complement ideas just as yours!

I'm not against talking about "ideas". I'm just offering constructive criticism for why trying to define Origins so narrowly to specific weaknesses and powers is not an ideal solution.

CoH started out with the concept that Origins would be very significant - even to the point that they would funnel you down along specific mission paths. But over the years it became clear to the Devs that doing things like that only served to restrict and/or limit a player's experience with the game. This is why by the end of CoH Origins had almost no in-game effects or ramifications,

Basically what you're proposing here is the exact opposite of that. You seem to want to turn Origins into virtual classes that completely define what you can and can't do. Frankly that's not the kind of game I want to see CoT turn into to.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

AJSB
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 3 months ago
Joined: 04/14/2014 - 19:52
I'm not opposed to stat

I'm not opposed to stat bonuses, but origin specific stories would more interesting to me.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 43 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
AJSB wrote:
AJSB wrote:

I'm not opposed to stat bonuses, but origin specific stories would more interesting to me.

There's nothing stopping you from making your OWN specific origin stories as long as the game doesn't bother trying to do it for you and getting it wrong (or at least not exaclty like you want it). That my main point here.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

7thGate
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/03/2013 - 20:24
Rather than bake the

Rather than bake the advantages directly into origins, I would prefer to see a system where there are a number of pool powers available to customize your character's abilities to match the concept you have in mind. Travel powers already worked this was in CoH, and will almost certainly do so again in CoT. Flight is just flight, no matter how your character flies. It could be a magic flight spell, alien antigravity technology, rocket boosters or something else. You take the pool power, flight, and then choose an animation and a reason for your character concept to have the ability that fits.

There is no reason you can't do most of these as pool powers. I would love to see something like an "Iron Mind" power in a pool that gave large amounts of psi resist. You could take it if your character concept called for something that was heavily resistant to psi, either because it has an artificial mind, or is a super martial artist with incredible mental focus, or is a magic user who has warded his mind against mental attack, or is a mutant master mentalist ala professor X who can directly fight invading psychic attacks, or any of a million other concepts that are immune or highly resistant to psychic damage. Note CoH did this to some extent with Tough, but I think it would have made great sense to have powers for toxic and psi at least, since there are a lot of concepts that should be immune or highly resistant to those. The balancing factor would be taking pool powers that protect against one narrow, uncommon damage type well rather than more potent defensive or offensive powers from the primary power sets.

dawnofcrow
dawnofcrow's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/31/2013 - 08:56
agree limited/restricted to

agree limited/restricted to specific powers but we need Perfect Imbalance in CoT if we add Power origins give a challenge to it here 2 video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

edit if u have time look at videos

whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich

JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 5 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
Repeating what I've stated..

Repeating what I've stated..

In a game where you are choosing the damage type(s) you use in your framework, its neccesary to also give players the ability to choose their own resistances. I think there should be "resistance slots" that you gain as you level up and slot into the damage type your character is resistant against.

How you rationalize the resistance is up to you (Be it your origin, your powerset, or some other arbitrary reason)

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 43 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Repeating what I've stated..
In a game where you are choosing the damage type(s) you use in your framework, its neccesary to also give players the ability to choose their own resistances. I think there should be "resistance slots" that you gain as you level up and slot into the damage type your character is resistant against.
How you rationalize the resistance is up to you (Be it your origin, your powerset, or some other arbitrary reason)

Adequate rationalization for the existence of the type of resistances you'd want to choose wouldn't be the problem here. I suspect the question of overtly catastrophic Tank-Magery would be the main problem with this.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Robertt Steel
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 01/29/2014 - 07:04
I agree with you JayBezz...

I agree with you JayBezz...

Inaddition to your comment, I would add that any superhero has a weakness, or strenght that shines up more than the others... and SOME of them come from the Origin In example:

Superman (Alien)
Aquaman (Natural underwater humanoid)
Cyborg (cyborg)
Hulk (Science origin determined his powers)
Thor (Natural powers due to being a god)
Spiderman (his web power comes from the spider origin as well as the aracnid sense)
Ironman (Technology, power suit)

Some of them have increased senses, some of them have weaknesses (superman-kryotonite, Spiderman-runs out of web, Iron Man-can run out of power and ammo)
Some of them have strengths (ironman-absorbs electricity to power up the suit, Hulk has regeneration, you name it)

Of course that adding power pools would be the best option...

Robertt Steel
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 01/29/2014 - 07:04
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
Repeating what I've stated..
In a game where you are choosing the damage type(s) you use in your framework, its neccesary to also give players the ability to choose their own resistances. I think there should be "resistance slots" that you gain as you level up and slot into the damage type your character is resistant against.
How you rationalize the resistance is up to you (Be it your origin, your powerset, or some other arbitrary reason)

Adequate rationalization for the existence of the type of resistances you'd want to choose wouldn't be the problem here. I suspect the question of overtly catastrophic Tank-Magery would be the main problem with this.

Tank-Mastery as the Juggernaut? He got his Tank powers from a magical stone...

I don't really understand your point, but We have seen ranged tanks in superhero history, Superman has eyebeam, Ironman is primary a blaster but can sustain a LOT of damage...

Izzy
Izzy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 54 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 11:09
hmm.. Iron Man is a scrapper?

hmm.. Iron Man is a scrapper? :o

WarBird
WarBird's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/17/2013 - 19:11
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

AJSB wrote:
I'm not opposed to stat bonuses, but origin specific stories would more interesting to me.

There's nothing stopping you from making your OWN specific origin stories as long as the game doesn't bother trying to do it for you and getting it wrong (or at least not exaclty like you want it). That my main point here.

For what it's worth, I think an origin specific Tutorial/Intro Level might be fun. But I agree that, despite how much sense it makes from a genre/story-telling aspect, having your origin pre-determine your adventure path limits your experience of the game.

I also think that is one of the major mistakes DCUO made, right from the beginning. Everyone essentially has the same Origin Story. Brainiac invades and releases nanites that enhance humans. The way your powers manifest is the only difference, and even that is too narrowly defined, IMHO.

Empyrean
Empyrean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 31 min 15 sec ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/16/2014 - 07:51
I think Robert has some good

I think Robert has some good ideas, but I agree with everyone that:

a) locking things in has vast potential to inhibit creativity and fun, and

b) giving too many options that are actually part of fundamental underlying game mechanics is potentially a game-busting nightmare.

I would think, from experience playing, reading forums, and listening to devs, that what we want is vast flexibility in concept, story, visual personalization and cosmetic design, while keeping the actual game mechanics manageable enough to make it easy to maintain balance, add powers later, and make adjustments as needed to improve the quality and fun of gameplay without worrying about spaghetti code breaking the game with every change.

I would submit that the fundamental game mechanics--not how they use them, they can go crazy in gameplay design--should be relatively simple and fun (and don't look down on simplicity. Simplicity is often superior to complexity. Simplicity can be powerful and elegant.), while the personalization options when it comes to the look, feel and even sound of your character should be vast.

That way we have nearly infinite capacity to create what we want, and then a consistently manageable, maintainable, developable, and fun game to go enjoy our concept in.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Izzy
Izzy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 54 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 11:09
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

... you .. making your OWN specific origin stories ...

hmm.. Can i make a Cinematic with speech bubbles? :D And when someone check out my BIO, they can click the buton that says 'View Cinematic Origin'?

Nah I dont feel like reading text, i wanna watch it or text to speech it! Wave of the Future Baybe! ;)

Scott Jackson
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 20 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/20/2013 - 20:13
Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

hmm.. Can i make a Cinematic with speech bubbles? :D And when someone check out my BIO, they can click the buton that says 'View Cinematic Origin'?

If hyperlinks in bios are allowed, and some kind of machinima system exists (like COH's demorecord), then wish granted - just link to a youtube video of it. Could also hyperlink to a player-made site devoted to stories / drawings / comics / videos, similar to Virtueverse in the CoH.

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 27 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Repeating what I've stated..
In a game where you are choosing the damage type(s) you use in your framework, its neccesary to also give players the ability to choose their own resistances. I think there should be "resistance slots" that you gain as you level up and slot into the damage type your character is resistant against.
How you rationalize the resistance is up to you (Be it your origin, your powerset, or some other arbitrary reason)

Just to clear something up; players will not be choosing their own damage types and resistance types other than what is provided within the choice(s) of a power set. If you choose the Burning Melee set, you will get the damage type(s) designed for the powers within this set. If you choose the Burning Armor set, you will get the resistances associated with the Burning Armor set.

Perhaps as the game goes on there may be a way to change this, but certainly not or soon after release.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
Tech Team.
JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 5 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
Repeating what I've stated..
In a game where you are choosing the damage type(s) you use in your framework, its neccesary to also give players the ability to choose their own resistances. I think there should be "resistance slots" that you gain as you level up and slot into the damage type your character is resistant against.
How you rationalize the resistance is up to you (Be it your origin, your powerset, or some other arbitrary reason)

Just to clear something up; players will not be choosing their own damage types and resistance types other than what is provided within the choice(s) of a power set. If you choose the Burning Melee set, you will get the damage type(s) designed for the powers within this set. If you choose the Burning Armor set, you will get the resistances associated with the Burning Armor set.
Perhaps as the game goes on there may be a way to change this, but certainly not or soon after release.

Hmm.. I must say this is a bit of a dissapointment because I saw the versatility of a system as I described above to fit many more concepts.

Chemical Burns, Electrical Burns, Fire Burns, or even Physical Abrasion (rub burns) and Metaphysical/Psychic burns (Phoenix)..

I won't let my heart sink just yet.. I am just more anxious to see the categorization of the frameworks now because it seems alot of concepts may have to wait for the game to support them.

(For instance being a character who uses "dust" to rip flesh off an enemy using the "burning" set.. something someone in my friend group was talking to me about)

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Darth Fez
Darth Fez's picture
Online
Last seen: 9 min 51 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/20/2013 - 07:53
IIRC, in this example

IIRC, in this example 'burning melee' would be the theme (basically a damage set with a DoT element) and fire/chemical/sandblasting would be a question of animation. So whether your friend could create their concept - which sounds like it might be more suitable to a 'burning ranged' theme - would largely depend on whether a fitting animation set is available (or whether recoloring an existing animation set would be close enough).

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

Support trap clowns for CoT!

JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 5 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
I understand but he was

I understand but he was looking forward to doing slashing/piercing/physical (whatever you call it) damage instead of fire. Razor Storm is an amazing concept he told me of back when we were in High School (and yes he's melee).

While he could possibly need to wait for the right animation to fit his concept, he wouldn't be forced to use thermal damage for his concept.

- -

Same for my concept that uses Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (electical damage) to control people's brains. It seems I'll likely be forced to use psychic damage again instead of realizing my concept.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Darth Fez
Darth Fez's picture
Online
Last seen: 9 min 51 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/20/2013 - 07:53
Assuming that my

Assuming that my understanding is correct, the good news is that the themes will be among the easiest aspect to implement. Thus it should be rather trivial to have a Bleed Melee set which does lethal damage with a DoT element (which may well be identical to Burning Melee, barring the damage type).

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

Support trap clowns for CoT!

JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 5 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
Well at least I know my

Well at least I know my understanding is.. incorrect at best. Like I said .. I'm going to ignore the sting of disappointment until I at least see what IS planned.

- -

I would very much still love if Frameworks were based more on mechanics than overly specific concepts.

In DCUO I hate telepathy because it looks ugly, and of course it's still mental damage. I'd much rather just have a debuff/control set I can make look like what I want (and use electrical damage)

In Champions Online telepathy is again defined for you and was one of the only sources of Crowd Control.. so even if I wanted to use the electric attacks I would have worse (or just less thematic) holds than if I'd gone telepathy.

Because CoT is not a freeform system I was looking forward to having well defined archetypes.. but not if it comes at the cost of my theme. I would really hate to wait 4 years to be able to have the mechanics I want match my concept.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 27 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
I'm sorry if my clarification

I'm sorry if my clarification led to disappointment. I'm not alone amongst the devs who enjoy free form systems. If I could tell you the depth of experience on our side in both the design and use of such systems you would probably be surprised. However designing such systems in an MMO with as much possibility as one we propose to provide is rife with problems. Is it possible to do? Probably, but with a whole heck of a lot more effort than it would take us to reach our launch date. And it from our early discussions on the subject, such a system could be detrimental toward adding new features down the line because every aspect of what those new features affect would have to be re-evaluated, and at times previously implemented design might need be changed to make the new work.

The direction we are taking will hopefully alleviate such pitfalls to some or a large degree. There are also reasons why certain themes need to be identifiable for what they do to a certain extent. Believe me when I say we have discussed animations, what they look like, and what power does a lot. So yes there will be limits on visual effect animations and character animations as well. We won't be able to use whatever visual effect animation from a library to any power we want. But the range of what will be customizable will be far greater than say Burning Blast with two different flame styles and whatever colors are available from the pallet.

The examples of the framework that were provided were a peak under the hood as it were for how we are designing the powers and power sets for the game, with a little bit of what the end user will be able to do. Power sets are designed around a theme and a play style. The both of these may determine animation styles and visual effects that are usable within that theme and play style.

Using the Burning Blast as an example, you could have visual animations that cover anything that is considered "burning", fire, acid, stinging wind, and so on. It's a ranged set so you could have the blasts come from your hands, eyes, psychic like projections, or from your bird pet flying over your shoulder, a pistol or rifle., Magic wand or sword. Blasts from your hands may look like simple, iconic power poses, or martial arts-like (we like stuff ATLAB). But if you chose a melee weapon set, you probably won't get animations that include eye point of origin animations or from the bird flying over your shoulder. I hope this info helps soften the blow to the loss of the idea of a total free form system.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
Tech Team.
Empyrean
Empyrean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 31 min 15 sec ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/16/2014 - 07:51
It... sounds freer than CoH

It... sounds freer than CoH ever was, and more likely to be manageable and sustainably fun than the theoretically awesome but in practice dissapointing freeform of Champions.

Seems to me like an excellent compromise between the philosophical ideal of freeform and the practical reality of managing and developing a functional, living, growing MMORPG to me. Sign me up.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

dawnofcrow
dawnofcrow's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/31/2013 - 08:56
ask Questions on Character

Questions on Character Creation are u guys do same is before on coh and cov or something new if so idea Black Desert > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miHdbBMOHq4

whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 27 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
dawnofcrow, we have given out

dawnofcrow, we have given out some bits of info regarding our intention for character creation through older updates and quite a few posts. I feel bad as it is for contributing to the derailing of the thread as it is. Our character creation system called the Avatar Creator will offer more depth of fustomization than CoH did. Many of us do appreciate some of the additional options given through CO's character creator, though our aesthetic direction will be quite different.

And yes Black Desert is impressive. Keep in mind what we provide through the Avatar Creator when it is launched is not the end of what may be possible as the game matures.

Hopefully back to the OP and the derailment ends.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
Tech Team.
JayBezz
JayBezz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 5 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/08/2013 - 14:54
Animations are one thing..

Animations are one thing.. but mechanics are another. I want to know that I can perform much of the mechanics you'd expect to see in a telepath and use particle/electric damage instead of psychic damage.

If I want a melee blade set does it have to be physical damage or can it also be psychic damage? What about toxic/bio damage? (another of my SG's powerset).

I don't see it as freeform as the mechanics of the powers are chosen by the devs but (how much DPS, range, targets, cast type, etc) but being forced to choose between being the "Electric set" that performs one way and the "Psychic Set" that performs that way is what I'm hoping to avoid. I would much rather choose the "Controller Set 1" that performs universally as "Controller Set 1" and pick my damage.

When I read the view of powersets the assumption I made was that "burning" was not the same as "fire damage set". I sincerely hope the horse is not indeed dead because the design described in Kickstarter seemed to promise the type of versatility I describe.. but if not what I describe then what exactly was it describing?

P.S. - I do understand that all design is subject to change from the planning stage. Is this in fact a change in plan or was the original plan just not explained well?

Crowd Control Enthusiast

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 27 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
The KS description you're

The KS description you're referring to was never intended to describe players being able to choose their own "damage type". The example of a Burning Set was to imply this is a set that Burns stuff and therefore anything players will be able to make it look like will be in reference to the theme of "stuff that burns". So no, you won't be able to take the Burning Set and make it do say Psychic damage.

It isn't for an arbitrary reason either. Part of it is how we design many aspects of the system underneath. Giving greater freedom of such a design paradigm could potentially land us in trouble where players take Set 02 with Damage type X and completely nullify any form of complexity we intended for game play at a particular stage of encounter. It also greatly complicates the testing phase as each and every possible combination of a Set would need to be tested with each possible paring of Damage Type with each and every classification. Because certain pairing of effects with certain types might yield very unexpected results. The level of complexity implied by such a system sure enough stuff will slip through the cracks and make it live where as more players play such untinded occurences will come up, the more we have to come with an "oops" not intended and have to change things up.

That's going to happen anyway, gamers are great at finding unexpected ways to do things. Sometimes the unorthodox thing is great, sometimes its detrimental. If we end up with more detriment than positive, we have problems. In order to keep things saner, make it more possible to reach launch, there won't be such a free-form, take any set and assign any damage type to it set up. There is no telling if down the line we'll be able to open this up to a degree, we've discussed it, but that is very far out there from where we're at now.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
Tech Team.
Scott Jackson
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 20 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/20/2013 - 20:13
Jaybezz (or anyone with

Jaybezz (or anyone with similar character concepts, including me):
To an extent we'd need to know what is meant by "mechanics you'd expect to see in a telepath" - is this the secondary effects such as stuns/knockback? As long as you're not asking for "powerset" to be defined differently than it was in CoH and (so far) in CoT, there may be options for you. To be clear, I'm using terms as follows...

"Powerset" means a dev-assembled bundle of [n] powers intended to support a unique playstyle through complimentary, balanced combat effects.
"Power" means a dev-designed ability which affects a specific target or area, has one or more effects, and costs/limitations, such as:
Power 1: cast time 1s, single target max range 3m, effects{damage(energy, 185), stun(mag 2, duration 3s, chance 50%)}, recharge 4s, costs 8 endurance.
Power 2: cast time 1.5s, cone to target max range 4m width 135 degree, effects{damage(energy, 250), knockdown(mag 5, chance 100%)}, etc.
Power 3 though [n]: similar format, but variety of harmonious effects to establish a melee playstyle centered around using energy primarily to do damage, but also to stun and knock targets down.

"Animation Theme" is a dev-assembled bundle of animations that provide a unique and complimentary appearance, which can be applied to a powerset, or at least to many powers within a powerset. Since every power in every powerset must have at least one valid animation, each powerset would likely have a default theme. I haven't heard the details of how much it will be allowed to stretch. For example, can I use at least the player-side part of a "leaves and seed pod wrap around my arm, seeds shoot out" animation that was originally designed for a "plant control single target hold" power but instead apply it to my "burning ranged damage" power, if they have equal cast times? It wouldn't surprise me if that is a decision that must wait for other things to fall into place.

To get our more unusual character concepts,
1. Select whatever powerset has the mechanics and damage type that match your concept the best. Perhaps this is "Electric Melee" (using CoH scrapper primary as an example).
2. Select the animation theme with the best appearance, perhaps "Dual Blades". This requires the devs to have assembled the theme and enabled it , and to do that they must first create a wide-enough spectrum of dual blade animations which match the electric melee powers' cast times. This is greatly aided by standardizing cast times, as was done in CoH. For example, they might make dual blade animations which cover cast times of 1s, 1.25s, 1.5s, 2s, and 2.33s. That would cover all powers in a Dual Blades powerset, *and* might be enough to replace many but not all of the electric melee powerset's default thematic animations (such as Thunder Strike's 3.3s animation).
2b. If we're lucky, the theme we select will guide us but still allow us to pick from among several animations of equal cast time (different 1.5s blade strikes) if they've been created, especially where the theme has a "blank spot" (as with the Thunder Strike example above, the system could allow different 3.3s "slam/explosion" animations even if there isn't a Dual Blade one).
3. Select the blade design (perhaps like CoH's Vanguard) and custom colors (blue/white/pink?) to best fulfill your concept of psychic blades. Apply custom colors to any other animations which do not use the blades, hopefully to match your concept.

As you can see, much depends on whether you're using the same definition of powerset as they are, and how much work they put into the animation themes. The better the cast time spectrum is covered by every animation theme, and the more flexible the devs are willing to be when enabling those themes for all powersets and then allowing further selection of specific animations for individual powers, the better our chances of building many concept characters.

By giving this example I don't mean to imply it's restricted to attack powersets; defensive ones would benefit too, since you could make a concept character who has high smashing/lethal resistance ("Invulnerability" powerset) but is surrounded by electric-themed defensive animations when they use their defenses. In that sense we *could* choose our defensive strengths and weaknesses from whatever balanced list of combinations that the devs provide, while still appearing to be a sorcerer, alien, or cyborg with a wide range of animation options to display those defensive powers, and we're free to roleplay them as derived from our origin, or not.

I imagine this fits into the Anxiously Awaited Updates category, since it sits directly at the junction of two hugely popular topics - the character creator and the powerset selection process.

Doctor Tyche
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 6 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 11:29
We have an advatage here in

We have an advatage here in that animations can have their times adjusted on the fly. Not dramatically else they look funny, but adjustable to a limited degree none the less.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Izzy
Izzy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 54 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 11:09
So do we still need 6

So do we still need 6 Enhancement slots for each power? or is it like 3 main slots with an option to (at max level) unlock one or more post 30+?
And do SO's or IO's have double the whammy percent since there are less of them needed? :)

Robertt Steel
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 01/29/2014 - 07:04
Hi all,

Hi all,

Going back to the ORIGINAL Post....

Would you guys like that depending on the ORIGIN players can add a limited number of slots for powers?

In example:
Technology Origin allows 6 slots to powers that involves machinery, technology... but only 3 slots to lets say MAGIC powers ??

That way we could add some more depth to ORIGNS... Just an idea...

islandtrevor72
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/28/2014 - 11:24
Robertt Steel wrote:
Robertt Steel wrote:

Hi all,
Going back to the ORIGINAL Post....
Would you guys like that depending on the ORIGIN players can add a limited number of slots for powers?
In example:
Technology Origin allows 6 slots to powers that involves machinery, technology... but only 3 slots to lets say MAGIC powers ??
That way we could add some more depth to ORIGNS... Just an idea...

I dunno if this would work in the way powers are being done in CoT where a power isn't inherently from a particular source. In case you don't know, each power set will have multiple choices to display that power.

Just look at this part of the kickstarter discussion

Kickstarter wrote:

Let us make an example. For simplicity’s sake, we’ll stick to the first four tiers. We want to develop a DoT-based ranged power set. Let us call it “Burning.” We do not call it “Fire” because its effects can be used to represent much more than just flame. It could represent laser beams searing opponents, napalm grenades, raining fire and brimstone, or acid burns. A player could even go all out and nuts with their theme, using it in combination with tan-colored, wind-based animations, and call themselves the “Sand Blaster."

As you can see options that include supernatural, technological, or any other idea are included into a powerset
So if origins are tied to the animations of a powerset it creates a bottleneck where in you either take the animation that gives you the bonus or you deliberately choose to be weaker.

meta brawler
meta brawler's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 6 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/27/2013 - 11:52
I know I am late to the party

I know I am late to the party and it is good to see all this discussion going on. One thing I remember talking with Tannim specifically about in the old website was about adding skills and professions to the game. Could tying certain skills to origins be the answer? I know that the intent is to have origin types mean something more than having a trivial power at character creation that we quickly forget about at lvl 2. Tannim created a really good list of skills that I believe were later transformed into power pools (I have been away for a while so i don't remember). For example, a Tech origin character would not be able to access a divination skill/power pool set that a magic origin character would. And vice versa, a magic user would not be able to access a cyber hacking power pool that would come "naturally" to a robot. Simply because that is not what those origins are known for. That being said I know that some character concepts would want both as part of their arsenal, so maybe in order to access those skills/power pools for characters not of that origin would pay double for it? Like in DnD cross class skills cost double. Cross class skills require the player to train harder since its not native to their class. So maybe in our case if a player really wants a cross origin power pool they would give up a power pool choice? For instance if a player at max level gets 4 power pools to choose from and he selects a cross origin pool as one of them, then he will only have a total of 3 power pools at max level. (not saying this is the way this is or planned. I'm just using this as an example.)

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 52 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
I don't see why we need

I don't see why we need skills like these. How would they be useful to the average hero? Are they just flavor, or would you gate content behind them? What advantage would a hero get from spending points on skills?

Be Well!
Fireheart

kitsune9tails
kitsune9tails's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 1 week ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 04/15/2013 - 12:16
No promises, but I personally

No promises, but I personally am a fan of skill systems. I would also like a system of 'choosable weaknesses', but that is probably less likely.

______________
IANAL, IMHO, WYSIWYG, YMMV, IIRC, AFAIK, ETC

Composition Assistant Director, Composition Team

Doctor Tyche
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 6 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 11:29
While I'm not a fan of skill

While I'm not a fan of skill systems, because they do not fit in a powers-based system. Why have electric blasts when you can pick up a skill for running an Uzi? Instead I'm more in favor of non-combat powers, things like x-ray vision or travel powers on their own progression system.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 55 min ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

While I'm not a fan of skill systems, because they do not fit in a powers-based system. Why have electric blasts when you can pick up a skill for running an Uzi? Instead I'm more in favor of non-combat powers, things like x-ray vision or travel powers on their own progression system.

Like!

Spurn all ye kindle.

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 56 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
Again, my $0.02 is, as always

Again, my $0.02 is, as always, if it's a little restrictive early on, that's fine by me, because it's less prone to being totally broken and because it allows you, the Devs, to open some things up later on in the form of new powersets, new enhancements, new inspirations, unlocks, respecs, unslotters, cash shop items, etc.

For the Origin and skills thing specifically, I personally don't think they should implement anything like this right at the start. I don't even want to have to choose an "Origin" for my toon off of a list. That's what the Origin Story blurb in the toon's info is for. What I would prefer is to be able to craft and shape my toon on whatever origin/theme I want by picking the appropriate primary power set, secondary power set, power pools, one-of powers (either temp powers or unsorted miscellaneous powers you can just take if you want to spend a levelup on them, etc), costume pieces, attack animations, auras, etc that make him look and act as I would want him to.

I feel that a lot of this stuff is most likely going to roll out in themed sets over time anyway. Like in CoH when you got the Mecha costume set, or the Boxer set, except in CoT when the "Cyborg Theme" rolls out you'd maybe get some costume pieces, some new power animations, and maybe even new powers/powersets/power pools all at once.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

meta brawler
meta brawler's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 6 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/27/2013 - 11:52
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

While I'm not a fan of skill systems, because they do not fit in a powers-based system. Why have electric blasts when you can pick up a skill for running an Uzi? Instead I'm more in favor of non-combat powers, things like x-ray vision or travel powers on their own progression system.

And that's exactly what those skills/pools were; non-combat abilities that were added for flavor to round out a characters abilities in non combat situations. Hackers would interact with glowies quicker, divineers would reveal the fog of war on a map, engineers got better/faster craftig results etc. I don't remember the full list but if you guys still have access to it the old site you could take a look at it. Or maybe Tannim could re-post it. That was a really good thread with some really good ideas generated for skills and professions. I do agree that to do this right it would require a lot of time and resources which may not be available at launch. But it could make it into a post launch issue update.

I am a fan of skills/ professions and I think that they would incorporate nicely into an origin system where specific skills/power pools where gated by origin type. I think that this is something that was a missed opportunity in CoX which CoT could take advantage of. The way I see it you would select these skills/power pools aside from your normal allotment of power choices so that players won't have to sacrifice power selections; Powerset 1, Powerset 2, Power Pools, Origin Skill Pools.

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 27 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
meta, I have all the original

meta, I have all the original information (the entire thread in fact), as well as several itinerations of the list to which you're referring to. There's no point in posting it at this time because, 1. the original list has indeed changed, 2. its likely to change again. One thing I can say is that the non-combat powers will not be gated to origin type. 'Origins of powers" is not "thing" within the game so far as game play or any systems are concerned. Its purely a role-play aspect that both players and writers of the content can use, but it won't gate, or restrict in any sense how or why you use powers.

Instead, its up to the player to decide how their character is able to do something. An example from another thread I've given, if you were to say, be able to pick a lock of a secured door, it could be because you have the necessary skill and tools to do so, or it could be you're telekinesis was able to manipulate the tumblers in the lock, or your magic spell was able to open the door, or your mutant luck power just so happened to work in your favor. We put the system together, players decide how it works for them.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
Tech Team.
Doctor Tyche
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 6 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 11:29
I particularly like my

I particularly like my example of the guy who is a demolitions expert who "picks locks" using thermite. (Burning/Kinetic Ranger, tons of AoE and KB from him throwing his bombs)

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Stormthrasher
Stormthrasher's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/30/2014 - 05:46
This idea is kind of similar

This idea is kind of similar to the post I made about customizable power sets, I saw the initial implementation of the origin concept, and I realized why it needed to be adjusted. But it could be interesting to have some kind of 'themed' story arcs as they relate to origin's. Just could be something interesting to see.

Love is like a Rhino, short-sighted and hasty; If it cannot find it a way, it will make a way.
-Flavor text on Crash of Rhinos.

Cinnder
Cinnder's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 55 min ago
Gunterkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 16:24
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

I particularly like my example of the guy who is a demolitions expert who "picks locks" using thermite.

...and then steals a big barrel of methylamine? :-)

Spurn all ye kindle.

meta brawler
meta brawler's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 6 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/27/2013 - 11:52
Kool. That was some really

Kool. That was some really good work you did there Tannim with that list. I'm glad you kept it and are still improving it. I'd love to see it in its final form. I guess the only other way to make origin types significant in any way is to do it with specific story lines. Or you can simply not assign origin types and not make it a thing in the game. Leave the entire origin process up to the player and not even worry about it in game. Let the player write up an origin story in his profile and be done with it. I can see how it gets tricky assigning origin types. Historically in the comics each origin type has fought the opposite origin types at one point or another. Doctor strange isnt always fighting against Dormamu. He's been up against mutants and aliens alike. The Avengers are a prime example. They fight against everything. Still though origin types are important and should still have some role to play even if it is minor. the original suggestion by the op to grant certain buffs and debuffs is not a bad way to go either. However, you will still have people complaining about it and asking for complete homogenization.

Robertt Steel
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 01/29/2014 - 07:04
Hey, what if, just what if:

Hey, what if, just what if: Depending on the powers you choose, new powers become available in example:

If I select the super strength power, I could pickup big vehicles to throw at enemies? Non-SS users could not do such thing....

If I select the Military Power set, the SNIPING power becomes available since only highly trained soldiers can SNIPE as a pro... No untrained person could use a Sniper rifle precisely...

If I select the sorcery power set I can summon demons/entities, no other powerset can summon supernatural entities since only Magic users are trined to do so... Soldiers could summon robots but not demons... Divine powerset could summon Angels, but not robots...

In few words, every powerset origin can do same things with different flavors... That I think will add a lot of depth, customization and senese of identity and pertenece to every character!

Or we can just add ALL POWERSETS and ORIGINS as power pools such as the system in Champions Online and then be free to select wichever you want from each pool...

Freedom VS Flavor...

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 52 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
We're going to have to add

We're going to have to add the 'Mysterious' Origin, then. I have a character who has powers that are natural to him, but they were unlocked/granted by some mysterious force. It might be 'magic', it might be 'science indistinguishable from magic'.

I just don't see a way to have Origins that have a game-play effect, and still leave room for player freedom of creation. That which is Defined is limited.

Be Well!
Fireheart

notears
notears's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 16 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/04/2013 - 17:24
I don't think noncombat

I don't think noncombat powers should be restricted like this. If anything I think the non combat side of powers should be free form, at least with a point buy system if anything.