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Power Animation Rooting?

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Pain
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Power Animation Rooting?

I did a quick google search and may have the wrong jargon here so let me first explain what I mean by 'rooting'. In CoH and other games, my most recently played being Dark Souls III, when a power was activated the character was stuck in place through its duration.

I noticed in the sample videos released that the CoT animation doesn't 'root' the character while going through an animation. Personally, I think it looks cheesy and a little off when a character's legs are running sideways while their upper body is swinging a club or throwing a fireball.

Additionally, it has a huge impact on the way the game plays/feels, as increased movement for the player also goes to the npcs/enemies.

I'm curious what other people think and if a dev has any insight to the direction of the game and how it will be at release. Cheers!

Task Forces and PvP
CoH vet from Easter 2004 to shutdown
Been in scrapperlock since 2012

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While I played CoH, you could

While I played CoH, you could easily circumvent the power rooting by moving, jumping and using the power at the same time. You would then simply move through the air while using the power. Travel powers like super speed and super jump, and fitness to a degree, simply made this more effective.

It made for particularly bouncy PvP matches, since in all PvP, avoiding/reducing damage is key. Was odd watching a fight become more of a joust than anything else.

As someone who doesn't like standing in one place while playing a game, I really enjoy being able to cast and move in a fight.

Ultimately, it depends on the encounters and difficulty of the content whether a large amount of movement is necessary. If we take a generic MMO like WoW for example, vanilla raiding contained 40 people, most of whom didn't pay attention or do much of anything, and it was generally fine due to a lack of mechanics to avoid or watch out for. Later on, as the game was more developed and the devs got more experience, they created more complex fights with multiple phases and mechanics to avoid/soak/interact with. This made movement a crucial part of the game and so they were compelled to give all classes at least some form of movement (mages got blink, warlocks got portals, warriors got leap, etc. etc.).

If we're speaking solely on mechanics, should the character be able to move while casting, I would say that should be determined by how difficult the fights should be.

If we're speaking RP-wise, I would say that comic book fights usually move around a lot.

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I like the way GW2 lets us

I like the way GW2 lets us strafe and move during attacks. In fact, such movement and the use of non-rooting powers is what allowed my 'squishy' characters to be more offensively capable - since CoH's AI couldn't keep up with a moving target very well. I'd just as soon only have the most powerful attacks do any rooting, if any attacks root at all.

Be Well!
Fireheart

notears
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I like it, it favours more

I like it, it favours more mobile combat

Deathwatch101
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I prefer non-binding power

I prefer non-binding power animation. Now in the case of large powerful attacks I think sometimes having binding makes sense but if your running and gunning why would you stop to shoot for example if your a firearm or ranged weapon user.

The only times i like binding is when there is a cover system employed as then your bound to your cover that is helping to protect you from incoming attacks.

blacke4dawn
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Agree with that only the more

Agree with that only the more powerful powers should root, and the ones that has a charge of sort like the snipe powers in CoH regardless of their "power level".

Cobalt Azurean
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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Agree with that only the more powerful powers should root, and the ones that has a charge of sort like the snipe powers in CoH regardless of their "power level".

This was actually going to be changed in i24 with the blaster overhaul.

I preferred when powers didn't root in CoH/V. I might not like it as much now since my reflexes aren't as sharp as they used to be, but it definitely made for more engaging combat.

Empyrean
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I'm gonna be the odd man out

I'm gonna be the odd man out here and say that I want at least some tasteful rooting to make things feel more realistic and to make big powers feel powerful.

Shooters run but then plant to shoot. Noone who knows anything about shooting would waste bullets by shooting while running. If you watch any good fighter, they are very mobile in defense but always plant for at least a second to punch/kick/throw. The bigger the gun or the more powerful the strike, the longer the plant.

I know a superhero MMORPG isn't the real world and I'm not saying all or even most powers should root, but if none do--especially the ones that make sense to--it just starts to feel silly, even if it gives a tactical advantage in gameplay.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I'm gonna be the odd man out here and say that I want at least some tasteful rooting to make things feel more realistic and to make big powers feel powerful.
Shooters run but then plant to shoot. Noone who knows anything about shooting would waste bullets by shooting while running. If you watch any good fighter, they are very mobile in defense but always plant for at least a second to punch/kick/throw. The bigger the gun or the more powerful the strike, the longer the plant.
I know a superhero MMORPG isn't the real world and I'm not saying all or even most powers should root, but if none do--especially the ones that make sense to--it just starts to feel silly, even if it gives a tactical advantage in gameplay.

I actually agree with you on this and was surprised to see so many people not wanting some kind of rooting when attacking. I agree it does not look natural to be moving and fighting. I don't think all powers should be rooted, but I don't see the need to run if you are ranged and shooting a target from afar. Even as a controller you have no reason to move. I can only see that being useful during some kind of close combat melee.

Cinnder
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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I'm gonna be the odd man out here and say that I want at least some tasteful rooting to make things feel more realistic and to make big powers feel powerful.
Shooters run but then plant to shoot. Noone who knows anything about shooting would waste bullets by shooting while running. If you watch any good fighter, they are very mobile in defense but always plant for at least a second to punch/kick/throw. The bigger the gun or the more powerful the strike, the longer the plant.
I know a superhero MMORPG isn't the real world and I'm not saying all or even most powers should root, but if none do--especially the ones that make sense to--it just starts to feel silly, even if it gives a tactical advantage in gameplay.

Do you have a spare rocking chair on that porch so I can join you?

While I don't mind some mobility, I don't want the animations to look bad because the character is in motion -- and I don't want the ability to make powers look good while running to mean that the animators are restricted in how dramatic they can make the powers look.

Also, I don't want this to turn into some sort of action-running-dodging-hidingbehindcover game.

Should I add a comment about getting off our lawn to complete my geezer status?

Spurn all ye kindle.

Darth Fez
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I believe MWM has mentioned

I believe MWM has mentioned that combat will be a little more mobile/fluid, but I may be conflating that with what they said about targeting.

The only time I've seen people complain about mobility in a game is for boss fights, when that fight required a lot of movement and certain classes (or specs) suffered because a majority of their attacks rooted them. I don't recall feeling that this was ever a problem in CoH, since it made sense to me that all those powers that had longer activation times (i.e. rooted the character) worked that way. Which isn't to say it wasn't irksome when Shadow Maul whiffed.

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

Support trap clowns for CoT!

Cinnder
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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Which isn't to say it wasn't irksome when Shadow Maul whiffed.

Oh man, I remember that!

Spurn all ye kindle.

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As I understand it, CoT will

As I understand it, CoT will have both powers that root and powers that allow mobility. AFAIK those powers that root and those that are mobile will follow a cinematic logic. I take this to mean that you can run and gun (at least the tab targeting version) but aimed shots (again tab targeting version) will root. Same with melee. You can throw quick punches/kicks/stabs/whatever and move but for the big haymaker like swings you gotta plant your feet.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

As I understand it, CoT will have both powers that root and powers that allow mobility. AFAIK those powers that root and those that are mobile will follow a cinematic logic. I take this to mean that you can run and gun (at least the tab targeting version) but aimed shots (again tab targeting version) will root. Same with melee. You can throw quick punches/kicks/stabs/whatever and move but for the big haymaker like swings you gotta plant your feet.

If that is so, that is absolutely spectacular. And not surprising coming from MWM.

And Cinnder, don't you dare step in my lawn bringing your rocking chair up on the porch :P

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Tannim222
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The basics of it is there is

The basics of it is there is no forced rooting. The over all effect in a large-scale game with movement abilities was that rooting gave the feel of combat a stuttering effect.

Move at 60mph, STOP (attack), move at 2mph, move at 60mph.

Our internal testing also felt this way and we didn't find it as fun as having free movement.

Certain powers may require rooting, like those of cone area effects (to prevent certain things), but we are endeavoring to resolve that.

Instread what I've proposed is a slow gradual reduction of movement the more attacks are applied, and a faster but still gradual increase of speed when attacks are not applied. This is in part due to pvp concerned and the use of jousting that rooting leads to and kiting that free mobility leands to.

The main concern there is movement debuffs being applied to the attacker can result in rooting early because of suppressed movement stacking.

Also, the engine alllows us a high degree of animation blending, which means we can donthings like having a character run, stop to throw a kick, and get back to running raher seemlessly.

we also have some intersting mechanics when it comes to snipes and such (sorry can't elaborate on that right now).

The end result is to have a tab-targeting system with elements of hybrid tab-target and action mmo game play.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

... run, stop to throw a kick, and get back to running...

Sounds Fantastic!

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The basics of it is there is no forced rooting. The over all effect in a large-scale game with movement abilities was that rooting gave the feel of combat a stuttering effect.
Move at 60mph, STOP (attack), move at 2mph, move at 60mph.
Our internal testing also felt this way and we didn't find it as fun as having free movement.
Certain powers may require rooting, like those of cone area effects (to prevent certain things), but we are endeavoring to resolve that.
Instread what I've proposed is a slow gradual reduction of movement the more attacks are applied, and a faster but still gradual increase of speed when attacks are not applied. This is in part due to pvp concerned and the use of jousting that rooting leads to and kiting that free mobility leands to.
The main concern there is movement debuffs being applied to the attacker can result in rooting early because of suppressed movement stacking.
Also, the engine alllows us a high degree of animation blending, which means we can donthings like having a character run, stop to throw a kick, and get back to running raher seemlessly.
we also have some intersting mechanics when it comes to snipes and such (sorry can't elaborate on that right now).
The end result is to have a tab-targeting system with elements of hybrid tab-target and action mmo game play.

It would be great to see the animations different depending on the movement status of the character. I'm not just talking about waist and below versus above the waist separation of animations either.

With aesthetic decoupling, we could have all kinds of attack styles associated with the same powerset. So it could never be as simple as just keeping the legs running while the upper body animates the same attack whether the character is running or not.

An example:
Simple basic attack: The player used Aesthetic decoupling to customized this as a kick attack during character creation.
While stationary, the animation looks like a side kick with the front foot planted firmly on the ground and the back foot and hips rotating forward and snapping the foot into the target and back to the ground stance.
While running, this kick would look like a flying jump sidekick. And the character would not have to stop running before or after the attack.
While flying, it would look about the same as running but more like a cheesy wire-fu movie so the before and after resting positions would have to be adjusted to reflect the travelling flying posture.

Potential Titans:
Trap Spider - the little spider rides a big robot
Thunderbird Priest - conduit of the Thunderbird spirit
Lovebot - programmed to love man, gives tough love to mankind
Schwarzchild - singularity-manipulating time traveller is lost

Tannim222
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Animations will have to be

Animations will have to be altered based on movement animations such as running or flying, but the root animation would be the same.

Right now there is no way for us to add to the avatar creator to increase he layers of customization in manner you suggest - it would add to development time. Perhaps it is something for consideration for the future.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Animations will have to be altered based on movement animations such as running or flying, but the root animation would be the same.
Right now there is no way for us to add to the avatar creator to increase he layers of customization in manner you suggest - it would add to development time. Perhaps it is something for consideration for the future.

If you are responding to the immediately preceding post, your response seems to contradict everything you guys have already said and shown us.

For example, in this video you clearly have your character shooting fireballs with a side kick. (the very last attack is exactly that). So are you now saying that we will not be able to use a martial arts animation in character creation for this attack?

Unless maybe I was not as clear as I thought I was. I suggested only that the player selected during character creation that a kick would be the means of delivery for the attack. Then I went into how you the developers would have to deal with that decision in the animations and that the animations would have to account for the movement status of the player. So, what about that is wrong, or did you just not understand me?

Potential Titans:
Trap Spider - the little spider rides a big robot
Thunderbird Priest - conduit of the Thunderbird spirit
Lovebot - programmed to love man, gives tough love to mankind
Schwarzchild - singularity-manipulating time traveller is lost

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Sorry Huck, I was referring

Sorry Huck, I was referring to the suggestion animation changing based on standing vs moving etc...

The emanamtion point of a power is selectable by the player. And that opens the possible animations for that point.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Sorry Huck, I was referring to the suggestion animation changing based on standing vs moving etc...
The emanamtion point of a power is selectable by the player. And that opens the possible animations for that point.

Regarding attacks "hitting" will they be shown to hit if the character isn't downed or crited ? after all bullets from a gun if they were hitting I would consider that at the point someone was getting dropped or received a critical hit.

Tannim222
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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Sorry Huck, I was referring to the suggestion animation changing based on standing vs moving etc...
The emanamtion point of a power is selectable by the player. And that opens the possible animations for that point.
Regarding attacks "hitting" will they be shown to hit if the character isn't downed or crited ? after all bullets from a gun if they were hitting I would consider that at the point someone was getting dropped or received a critical hit.

Could you explain, I don't quite follow what you are getting at.
If the attack hits, there will be particle based hit fx.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Sorry Huck, I was referring to the suggestion animation changing based on standing vs moving etc...
The emanamtion point of a power is selectable by the player. And that opens the possible animations for that point.
Regarding attacks "hitting" will they be shown to hit if the character isn't downed or crited ? after all bullets from a gun if they were hitting I would consider that at the point someone was getting dropped or received a critical hit.
Could you explain, I don't quite follow what you are getting at.
If the attack hits, there will be particle based hit fx.

I mean in the sense of realism or the nature of force of a blow, for example would it be more interesting tp me that non-critical or non-downing/fatal wounds either glance off the armour/clothing or graze etc rather than say if you used a firearm or sword prop if you character slices through their neck and that character isn't a regenerater or of resistance type abilities they would be well kind of dead in a realism sense, the idea that the initial pool of hp is someone tiring or weakening before a blow that takes them down strikes them true.

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

I mean in the sense of realism or the nature of force of a blow, for example would it be more interesting tp me that non-critical or non-downing/fatal wounds either glance off the armour/clothing or graze etc rather than say if you used a firearm or sword prop if you character slices through their neck and that character isn't a regenerater or of resistance type abilities they would be well kind of dead in a realism sense, the idea that the initial pool of hp is someone tiring or weakening before a blow that takes them down strikes them true.

I think you are talking about battle damage overlays.
If you are, I personally do not like damage overlays. They are an added drag on a graphics card I don't need for immersion. They seldom look good, especially when you have body shapes that can be adjusted like they can in an MMO.
Some games have an option to turn off ovelays (mostly to reduce gore levels but can be used for costume damage I suppose) so if it the option was availible I have no problem with the suggestion other than added development effort.

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

I mean in the sense of realism or the nature of force of a blow, for example would it be more interesting to me that non-critical or non-downing/fatal wounds either glance off the armour/clothing or graze etc rather than say if you used a firearm or sword prop if you character slices through their neck and that character isn't a regenerater or of resistance type abilities they would be well kind of dead in a realism sense, the idea that the initial pool of hp is someone tiring or weakening before a blow that takes them down strikes them true.

Hmm, I believe we're not going to get 'realism', in the sense of flying gore, so a successful hit would produce a 'flash of something' (ie FX). No 'Black Knight Stunts' either, with arms, legs, or other appendages falling off. The character-model should remain intact, even if run over by a Caterpillar, if for no other reason than it needs to be intact when resurrected.

I suspect there could be 'big' effects, if the result is a 'critical hit', but I don't expect the attack animations to be able to react to the hit-points-status of the target. Let them just fall down and we are able to explain the result however we want our internal lore to go, lethal or disabling, sleeping, unconscious, or ready for a body-bag.

Be Well!
Fireheart