Please don't give males ridiculous tiny flat butts.

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craybest
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Please don't give males ridiculous tiny flat butts.

I know this might sounds silly to many of you, but I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
Most MMO's I have played usually portray sexy curvy women, and men are usually on the muscular/fit side, but awfullly plain, specially on the backside. They have big shoulders, huge biceps, big pecs, strong legs and calves, but a tiny flat butt that has nothing to do with the rest of the physique. MMO's in general and specially superhero MMO's have a standard of a fit body both for males and females, and a real male fit body has much more backside that what MMO's usually make their models. Heck I'm a slim/fit guy and even I have much more back there than some of the supposedly muscular bodies in MMO's.
I don't know if this is intentional or not, I don't know if some straight males get unconfortable looking at a bigger more realistic male butt on the screen, or the devs don't want to put too much work in that area, or if they just don't notice or don't care. But many of us do care and we notice it's not like that.

I know that many people think this is not important, but for some it is. Forum wars have started because of the infamous boob slider in many MMO's. Why do straight males get all the eye candy? MMO's are catering to a wider audience every year and character customization has to reflect that, sooner or later. For example I love strong women characters, that don't use their sex appeal to get what they want, a strong woman with a huge weapon, or armor, and I love my men to be more on the sexy side, it's just a matter of opinion and tastes.

The movie industry is already changing and adapting to it, these days you see as much beefcake as cheesecake in movies (and maybe even more) because they've realized their target audience is NOT only straight males anymore. Videogames and MMO's are slowly beginning to realize this aswell. But it's a very slow process.

There are already a couple of MMO's that have a buttocks slider for both males and females. I don't care so much for sliders if the default is a nice middle point and not a completely flat bottom for males and a super bubble butt for females.

If you want I can give you some examples of real muscular/fit males with tights and how does it look on their backside.

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Hear here!

Hear here!

I can't complain enough about how assless Cyclops is in Marvel Heroes. I am so serious. If I'm going to look at a boys butt throughout 90% of the game let the butt please exist.

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It's a rare thing that I

It's a rare thing that I catch at the gay bars, but when it happens, some poor twinkerexic raver reveals what the flat-ass looks like... so so sad and fail... and I heckle it like Statler and Waldorff. (no, I'm not a nice person at night, and I'm proud of that)

The butt is not just some set of globes that sit between the lower back and the legs, parting for the brown and serving no other purpose... glutes build up muscularly with the quads and hamstrings, lats, etc. They are important for proper musculature and core muscles. Flat-assing a character model just looks poorly done and like there is no concept of how human anatomy should be created in a 3D model.

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Thanks! I'm glad someone else

Thanks! I'm glad others decided to voice their opinion too! :)
I laughed at your story summer-heat, that's mean XD
Also just for some comparison, I think DCUO had it somewhat okay, it could be better but it wasn't ridiculous either, while CO did it horribly. Completely flat butts with muscled bodies look like lazy model design. Specially compared to the great detailed butts and breasts on women characters.

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The irony of bringing up the

The irony of bringing up the "infamous boob slider" for this thread is that most of the time the argument in CoH/CoT has been for allowing the boob slider to give us "flat chested" characters. In that case people are usually asking for the option to have less "curviness" not more. ;)

But having said that I have nothing against having a way for players to adjust male (and even female) booty size. We should have the OPTION for either flattish butts or beefier/curvier ones. The problem with not having a choice is that no matter what the "default" size is set at someone out there won't like it.

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If we can actually have a

If we can actually have a buttocks slider (like in dragon's prophet or it seems Elder scrolls online) it wold be great, easier to cather to different tastes, but I've heard sliders are a bit tricky with the unreal engine, and it isn't as easy at it appears. If body sliders aren't possible, then I hope the graphic designers won't make teh same mistake of other games and give round detailed butts for females and completely flat ridiculous butts for males. That is my point.

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craybest wrote:
craybest wrote:

If we can actually have a buttocks slider (like in dragon's prophet or it seems Elder scrolls online) it wold be great, easier to cather to different tastes, but I've heard sliders are a bit tricky with the unreal engine, and it isn't as easy at it appears. If body sliders aren't possible, then I hope the graphic designers won't make teh same mistake of other games and give round detailed butts for females and completely flat ridiculous butts for males. That is my point.

Well like I said as long as we don't have the option to make these things the sizes we want there'll always be some people who won't like the "defaults" we're stuck with. For instance I'm sure there are some people out there who hate the typical "round" butts on females and/or who would hate the idea of bigger, non-flat butts on males. *shrugs*

Perhaps the fairest way to handle these type of things (that won't or can't be adjustable when the game goes live) is to have the Devs present us with 4 or 5 example models during the Alpha/Beta phases and let people vote on which one we liked the best. At least that way there would be some player feedback before some of these body features are set in the proverbial stone.

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So, if people can't handle

So, if people can't handle anatomically correct male butts we would have to settle for the flat ones?
If sliders can't work then we should get something around the middle ground for both, if we do, then it's okay by me, but I fear we will get the extreme round butts on females and the extreme flat butts on males as usual.
I don't think that the devs will show us several models and let us choose, it's too much work for them to do it that way.
I hope I'm wrong though :)

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craybest wrote:
craybest wrote:

So, if people can't handle anatomically correct male butts we would have to settle for the flat ones?
If sliders can't work then we should get something around the middle ground for both, if we do, then it's okay by me, but I fear we will get the extreme round butts on females and the extreme flat butts on males as usual.
I don't think that the devs will show us several models and let us choose, it's too much work for them to do it that way.
I hope I'm wrong though :)

The problem with having "middle ground" defaults for both male and female models in this area is even though it sounds like a reasonable compromise it's probably a "solution" that more people would hate than like. If we take that idea of "sameness" to its logical conclusion we might as well play a game that makes no visual distinction between males and females at all.

I'm afraid you might have to accept that the reason females usually have rounder butts and males flater ones in games like these is that those what you call extreme "defaults" are in fact the most commonly acceptable ones. Again like I said not EVERYONE will like it that way, but when faced with having to make a design decision like this the Devs are usually going to fall back to defaults that are the most generally representative regardless.

As far as the "multiple models for voting" idea I doubt it would take the art Devs much time to come up with a few static pics to look at. Remember the whole idea on voting like this is for us to choose the body shapes we like most BEFORE the Devs spend too much time designing all the costumes and animations that would fit those body shapes in the live game.

Again (as I have argued in MMO forums for years) I think the best solution would be for us to have "sliders" for everything. But until that happens either the majority or the Devs will dictate any defaults we must accept.

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I don't get your logiocal

I don't get your logiocal conclusion of making genderless characters, I said middle ground for both males and females and those are pretty much different from eachother.
Also what you mean commonly acceptable? Just as an example, I've never seen anyone complain in DCUO saying that male butts are too round or big (I think they're much better done than other games) but in CO I've seen the topic emeerge quite a few times already, saying that they are too flat, same for Marvel Heroes.
If we can actually have body sliders, that would solve it (if they add a slider that fixes it of course)
If the devs show us model options that would be great, it's the first time I'm in a forum of a MMO done buy people that actually asks for opinion on their players, so I'm not used to it.
Of course that if they don't add sliders we will have to settle for whatever they decide, but this is a topic that's meant to show that some people care about this and they should consider making it more realistic and not just flatten everything because people won't care or won't notice.
Also I guess that's Batman's butt? XD

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I'm sure there are some people out there who hate the typical "round" butts on females and/or who would hate the idea of bigger, non-flat butts on males.

To quote the bartender from Star Wars IV, A New Hope when Luke Skywalker entered the bar in Mos Eisley:

"We don't serve your kind here!"


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I'm for it! I always figure

I'm for it! I always figure it was more artistic style than anything like "Ewww men's butts"

Though, not sure it would be worth the time. I know on the forums we ask for sliders for everything, we ask for lots of options, but at the same time, when you get into a game with such options, they're usually not used.

Look at CO, which can get much smaller than CoH could with the breast slider. Want a more hulking build for females? What's the least used build in TOR?

Just saying, the devs will likely want to focus within the options most likely used, if having sliders and multiple costume options like CoH is any indication of things. The more options, the more work they need to put into the costumes, the slower costumes come out.

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craybest wrote:
craybest wrote:

I don't get your logiocal conclusion of making genderless characters, I said middle ground for both males and females and those are pretty much different from eachother.
Also what you mean commonly acceptable? Just as an example, I've never seen anyone complain in DCUO saying that male butts are too round or big (I think they're much better done than other games) but in CO I've seen the topic emeerge quite a few times already, saying that they are too flat, same for Marvel Heroes.
If we can actually have body sliders, that would solve it (if they add a slider that fixes it of course)
If the devs show us model options that would be great, it's the first time I'm in a forum of a MMO done buy people that actually asks for opinion on their players, so I'm not used to it.
Of course that if they don't add sliders we will have to settle for whatever they decide, but this is a topic that's meant to show that some people care about this and they should consider making it more realistic and not just flatten everything because people won't care or won't notice.
Also I guess that's Batman's butt? XD

You've been coming at this from the point of view that you (personally) know what would be best as far male butt shapes go. That's fine, we all have opinions about these things and I'm not necessarily saying yours is right or wrong.

But I've been trying to make the point that as long we have NO choice over the matter someone's always going to dislike it. You are no more or less special in that regard. If by some fate the shape of the male model's butt in CoT ends up being exactly the perfect shape for you it will still upset someone else - these things always do.

If we are going to ask for any changes to this let's ask for something that'll give us some real CHIOCE in the matter either by having sliders or a fair vote. The idea of just asking the Devs to trade one Dev-dictated default for another is arbitrarily pointless. In effect why should I have to accept what YOU alone think my male characters' butts should look like even if I like your idea? I'd rather choose for myself or accept a fair majority vote. Basically I don't want to have to rely on what one (even well-meaning) person thinks is "realistic" and I don't think anyone else should either.

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I think we might want to see

I think we might want to see how they decide to aesthetically go with the game first. :) Will is look like Michael Turner was drawing the characters? Will it look like Wildstar/WoW? Will it look like some "We're so real!" icky garbage like some western games think people want?

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Lothic I get your point, and

Lothic I get your point, and I mostly agree, but I think you're wrong on one thing in particular, I don't want the devs to change something for something else just because I like it that way, but because I want it to be anatomically correct. I can get you lots of pictures of muscular/fit males anatomy and you would see the difference with the usual flat butts we get in games.
I know that we could wait for them to have the models ready, but I think it's better to give ideas before they made them because when they're done sometimes it's harder to go back and edit stuff, it all depends on how much user opinions they want to hear.
But we all agree on something, if we have sliders it's easier to cather to all tastes.

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Hey now, I DO want super

Hey now, I DO want super-realistic... It's better than that horrid cartoon cel shading that champions tried!

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summer-heat wrote:
summer-heat wrote:

Hey now, I DO want super-realistic... It's better than that horrid cartoon cel shading that champions tried!

It doesn't have to have that horrid cell shading and still not be super-realistic. Your avatar for instance does not look realistic.

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One: You do NOT want a super

One: You do NOT want a super-realistic body model for a superhero game. I'm a massage therapist and a student of the human form. Many of my clients would look ridiculous in anything that even modestly resembled a costume. I have no problem with NPCs being built on a variety of models but hyper-realism for the PCs is a bad idea.

That aside, I'm all about choice. If you want to include sliders for all the various proportions of the body I'm okay with that. I hope I won't offend anyone by asking that we not get crazy though. The fact that the DEFAULT setting for the female breasts in CO is as large as possible bothers me. Hell, they have Hand and Foot sliders...something that I think could have been left out in favor of other things.

As others have posted, muscular gleuts are anything but flat and if we use a reasonably-proportioned set of models to start with then I'm okay with that. However I would much rather have capes than worry about the size of my character's butt. Just sayin...

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Ummm.....

Ummm.....

In CoH, we were given a non-stop show of our avatar's backside, and I recall all three models having significantly shaped and non-flat butts. So, if there's a fear of flat-butts, is anyone saying that because of CoH or because of other MMOs?

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craybest wrote:
craybest wrote:

Lothic I get your point, and I mostly agree, but I think you're wrong on one thing in particular, I don't want the devs to change something for something else just because I like it that way, but because I want it to be anatomically correct. I can get you lots of pictures of muscular/fit males anatomy and you would see the difference with the usual flat butts we get in games.

I'm pretty sure I could find plenty of pics of male anatomy for comparison on my own. We live in a world where conservative estimates suggest that at least half the websites on the Internet are porn-related. ;)

But regardless I really don't have much fear that what we're going to get for character models in CoT will look bad no mater how "anatomically correct" they end up looking. I have faith the Devs here will do their best to begin with and would even be willing to correct "mistakes" if enough people complained about something. Even the CoH Devs were known to have changed specific body shapes/areas when they got enough critical feedback. If anything the CoT Devs will probably be more accommodating in that regard.

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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

Ummm.....
In CoH, we were given a non-stop show of our avatar's backside, and I recall all three models having significantly shaped and non-flat butts. So, if there's a fear of flat-butts, is anyone saying that because of CoH or because of other MMOs?

I think people are asking for a little more bubble!

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Must resist... must... resist

Must resist... must... resist. I like big butts! Shake that healthy butt!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ImZTwYwCug

Okay the song for women but it's BUTTS! I just couldn't help myself.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Zombie Man wrote:
Ummm.....
In CoH, we were given a non-stop show of our avatar's backside, and I recall all three models having significantly shaped and non-flat butts. So, if there's a fear of flat-butts, is anyone saying that because of CoH or because of other MMOs?

I think people are asking for a little more bubble!

That's fine, but I do think ZM has a point here.

CoH might not have been perfect as far as the "bubble" goes but it was arguably better than many other games out there. There's really was no basis to automatically assume CoT would do worse and every reason to suspect it'd be at least as good or better.

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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

In CoH, we were given a non-stop show of our avatar's backside, and I recall all three models having significantly shaped and non-flat butts. So, if there's a fear of flat-butts, is anyone saying that because of CoH or because of other MMOs?

I suspect that the "fear" is driven by games other than City of Heroes, which was better than most in the backside department. Best thing to do methinks is to set things up where there's an option for Upper Body and Lower Body, and you can choose the prototypical Slender, Average, Athletic and Bountiful choices ... with Average being a relative non-idealized body form (ie. somewhat realistic) ... and then work your will with the Sliders from there.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Zombie Man wrote:
In CoH, we were given a non-stop show of our avatar's backside, and I recall all three models having significantly shaped and non-flat butts. So, if there's a fear of flat-butts, is anyone saying that because of CoH or because of other MMOs?
I suspect that the "fear" is driven by games other than City of Heroes, which was better than most in the backside department. Best thing to do methinks is to set things up where there's an option for Upper Body and Lower Body, and you can choose the prototypical Slender, Average, Athletic and Bountiful choices ... with Average being a relative non-idealized body form (ie. somewhat realistic) ... and then work your will with the Sliders from there.

And if the game can't/won't give us free-floating sliders for this kind of thing then the next best solution would be to use your "prototypical" choices idea to allow for several static choices. Even having several hardwired choices would be better than no choice at all.

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My personal concern isn't

My personal concern isn't based in CoX models, If I remember right they weren't flat in the back at all. But many other more modern MMO's with more detailed models have this problem, It has been repeated in CO, in STO, and I remember it was an issue in another MMo forums but I can't remember wich one. Also even though it hasn't been mentioned it happens to most games, even in Tera where models are extremely detailed, males have a very flat butt.
I personally like bigger butts, so I hope we get sliders for that, but if we don't I expect the default to be at least anatomically correct and not completely flat. I hope you are right and the devs won't screw up with this one :)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:
Ummm.....
In CoH, we were given a non-stop show of our avatar's backside, and I recall all three models having significantly shaped and non-flat butts. So, if there's a fear of flat-butts, is anyone saying that because of CoH or because of other MMOs?

I think people are asking for a little more bubble!

That's fine, but I do think ZM has a point here.
CoH might not have been perfect as far as the "bubble" goes but it was arguably better than many other games out there. There's really was no basis to automatically assume CoT would do worse and every reason to suspect it'd be at least as good or better.

Oh, I had no problem with CoH myself. In fact, I'm sure I can live with whatever the game gives for a butt and not need a butt slider :p

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craybest wrote:
craybest wrote:

many other more modern MMO's with more detailed models have this problem, It has been repeated in CO, in STO, and I remember it was an issue in another MMo forums but I can't remember wich one. Also even though it hasn't been mentioned it happens to most games, even in Tera where models are extremely detailed, males have a very flat butt.

I suspect that this sort of thing (in other games) may be a combined artistic and resource limitation that the developers of those games are prepared to live with. For one thing, "rounded" butts consume more polygons (go figure) and if you're working with a polygon budget that can add up to being a prioritization of detail areas where the butt (on guys!) just loses out in favor of other high polygon priorities. The next consideration is dealing with clipping issues, where relatively "rigid" costume parts would (partially) clip through the buttocks in ways that would amount to a very weird form of "mooning" the Player, and that these sorts of concerns can be pre-emptively prevented by "flattening" the polygon count in the back.

With the "power" of the Unreal Engine, these concerns need not be valid ones necessarily, but they are the first things that come to mind from a game design standpoint as to why the "flat butt" would be more common than you'd at first think it should, simply as a result of optimization of resources.


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The clipping should not be

The clipping should not be more of an issue on guys than girls though. I *can* understand that they care less about guys butts so they flatten them down to use less polygons, but I think it's just cheap.
Like I said MMO players are NOT only straight males anymore, and that should be reflected in this kind of things.

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Right ... there's both gay

Right ... there's both gay guys and straight females to cater to as well ... and everyone in between who can appreciate a well shaped rump on a man's backside. ^_~


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"Buttocks slider" FTW.

"Buttocks slider" FTW.

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reminds me of the time i made

reminds me of the time i made morph targets for the Hips... and actually morphed the Butt Cheeks ;D
http://youtu.be/Vcn6QhLNLVg?t=2m35s

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I'm all for custimizing

I'm all for custimizing options. However, given the stage of the game's development - and the great amount of forethought our devs are putting into things - surely we could ask them to put this on the back burner.

You decide. Pun intended or not.

As for me, once you put the spandex on, seems like most buns would look just about the same. In the end, I'll be thrilled to have a choice of which gender my character will be,

Hm? Oh, yeah, I guess there's another pun in that line, too.

Eh, I guess it's all dependant on what you're looking for. Myself, I'd like to keep the game kid-friendly, where parents don't have to worry about a 14 year old kid being over-exposed while they take a quick 30 minute run to the store. So, just make sure the buttocks - both male and female - are clothed, please.

Those who have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing. - John Cleese

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Emancipist wrote:
Emancipist wrote:

I'm all for custimizing options. However, given the stage of the game's development - and the great amount of forethought our devs are putting into things - surely we could ask them to put this on the back burner.
You decide. Pun intended or not.
As for me, once you put the spandex on, seems like most buns would look just about the same. In the end, I'll be thrilled to have a choice of which gender my character will be,
Hm? Oh, yeah, I guess there's another pun in that line, too.
Eh, I guess it's all dependant on what you're looking for. Myself, I'd like to keep the game kid-friendly, where parents don't have to worry about a 14 year old kid being over-exposed while they take a quick 30 minute run to the store. So, just make sure the buttocks - both male and female - are clothed, please.

What MMO out there doesn't have their characters clothed?

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

What MMO out there doesn't have their characters clothed?

* cough *

TERA ...

* cough *

Blade & Soul ...

* cough *

Need I go on?


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Brand X wrote:
What MMO out there doesn't have their characters clothed?
* cough *
TERA ...
* cough *
Blade & Soul ...
* cough *
Need I go on?

While scantily clad for sure, they are still clothed. More clothed than some of the characters I saw running through AP..."Oh look! It's String Bikini With A Cape Girl!"

None of the characters in either of those games are completely undressed. More akin to the Witch Top with Skin.

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In fact...

In fact...

A City of Heroes outfit!

A TERA Outfit

CoH wasn't exempt from skin showing.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
Brand X wrote:
What MMO out there doesn't have their characters clothed?

* cough *
TERA ...
* cough *
Blade & Soul ...
* cough *
Need I go on?

While scantily clad for sure, they are still clothed. More clothed than some of the characters I saw running through AP..."Oh look! It's String Bikini With A Cape Girl!"
None of the characters in either of those games are completely undressed. More akin to the Witch Top with Skin.

It's true that these games technically keep their characters in "clothes". But when you get to the point where you're having to count individual pixels in strategic locations to evaluate whether or not the threshold of what constitutes "clothing" has be violated then I can at least understand where the parental concern may be coming from.

I'm certainly far from being a "prude" about this myself. But I think we all can agree that many of these games do their very best to leave absolutely nothing to the imagination. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

A TERA Outfit

Just as an aside ... there's a running in-joke among TERA Players that explains the ... fashion choices ... of the Castanic Females (the race shown in this pic). The explanation is that all of their vital organs are located in their limbs and extremities ... which is why they never wear armor on their inner thighs or their abdomen, always have a "chest window" baring flesh, etc. ... simply because striking them in those areas will never cause a fatal wound of any kind. Scratch their arm though and they're as good as dead(!), so that's where all the armor protection goes.

Still doesn't change the "fact" that the Elin are the Master Race in TERA, and could easily take over the world if they wanted to ... the "problem" is that they're just too darn busy being "cute" ...


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Brand X wrote:
What MMO out there doesn't have their characters clothed?

* cough *
TERA ...
* cough *
Blade & Soul ...
* cough *
Need I go on?

While scantily clad for sure, they are still clothed. More clothed than some of the characters I saw running through AP..."Oh look! It's String Bikini With A Cape Girl!"
None of the characters in either of those games are completely undressed. More akin to the Witch Top with Skin.

It's true that these games technically keep their characters in "clothes". But when you get to the point where you're having to count individual pixels in strategic locations to evaluate whether or not the threshold of what constitutes "clothing" has be violated then I can at least understand where the parental concern may be coming from.
I'm certainly far from being a "prude" about this myself. But I think we all can agree that many of these games do their very best to leave absolutely nothing to the imagination. ;)

My point was only, players could make an outfit that revealed just as much in CoH. :p Including some pieces that you counted the pixels. Does no one remember the Eden Top?

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I'm sad. I thought they were

I'm sad. I thought they were good puns.

Those who have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing. - John Cleese

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Funny thing, just as soon as

Funny thing, just as soon as I typed that last post, I logged into CO right next to a catgirl in thong bottom, eden like top, in stiletto boots. :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

My point was only, players could make an outfit that revealed just as much in CoH. :p Including some pieces that you counted the pixels. Does no one remember the Eden Top?

Brand X wrote:

Funny thing, just as soon as I typed that last post, I logged into CO right next to a catgirl in thong bottom, eden like top, in stiletto boots. :p

Don't worry my last post was far from a condemnation of the degree of clothing "freedom" these games allow. One of my original favorite CoH outfits from way back when the game first launched was the following:

Just making a general comment that by modern MMO standards this was practically a burka. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Heh...my thought has always

Heh...my thought has always been, people complain about the scantily clad armor, and while I agree, they should have more options, but neither leather armor or cloth armor protect against the stabbie anyways. Sooo...

"Look at me! Totally covered in leather!" *stab* "Oh look! It's now dyed red!" "Think that's bad, my robe is shredded! I should've just worn a bikini!"

:p

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Just to be history nerd for a

Just to be history nerd for a moment...

You can include chainmail in that category of not protecting well vs piercing damage. Heck, even plate mail could be on the list -- I have a horseman's axe with an 8-inch spike on the back specifically for use against enemies in plate.

Where all these armours (even cloth) do provide (varying) protection is against blunt and slashing attacks, which are far more likely to occur in hand-to-hand combat.

Back to the OP, it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other, but I think the OP makes a good argument for realism. Personally, I'd like the option to make a fat character also. One of the few things I really liked about SWTOR's character creator.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Brand X wrote:

A TERA Outfit

Hipster. The halo is ironic.

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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

Hipster. The halo is ironic.

I risked much death mining to obtain that halo. :p