Permanent hovering

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ThunderCAP
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Permanent hovering

In City of Heroes I created some characters which were permanently hovering. The hovering ability (like combat jumping for the super jump power) was supposed to be used only during fights (it added a slight defence buff if I remember correctly but it also was very slow at moving, even slower than walking, therefore you felt to deactivate it even to move between close opponents), but I managed by adding 3 flying speed (and probably 3 endurance cost reduction, but I'm not sure anymore^^, or 2-2-2 with defence too) to use it the whole time with ease.

I was pretty much always the only one in "permanent fly" in my teams during missions, chatting and fights (of course not during travel, since others would fly there too), probably because the majority of peoples didn't even try to put more fly speed and cost reduction and make the hover more usable (or they preferred to put other stats). That felt very special and helped also my melee-tank characters in reaching all opponents whenever they were or even force the boss (taunting it) in a spectacular melee-flying-fight (boss vs tank) with all the rest of mates and enemy-minions shooting at us. I would re-create that situation.

The fact that we could customize hovering so to reach a decent speed, permitted me to create a character that was permanently hovering (sometimes I even avoided to buy "fly" for travel), usable both for short and medium travel distances, and never deactivated in mission. I wonder if we will have the same possibility in City of Titans.
When standing still, by adding the correct animations and macro/buttons I was able to stand always like this at middle air, it really helped the roleplay not just for me but for the rest of peoples around:

There are characters that would need to levitate 90% of time for a correct roleplay (the ones that never tire during flight): Kryptonian-like, phantasms/ghosts, mages, telekinetic masters (Magneto) etc. Therefore the question is:
Did you put some limit that may prevent that (for example an high "endurance/mana/sp" cost or exagerated movement restriction that would force you to stop flying during fights and use it only for travel)?
If not, how would you balance the flying vertical-advantage during fights or even in pvp (maybe with a lower speed or height limit so you can reach it via basic-jumping or lower defense buffs compared to jumping-running-etc.?)?

Just curious, I'm pretty sure you released some hints and for sure there was an article related to travel powers in Kickstarter (I read them all as soon as they were released), but I'd like to know if generally we will be able to create a permanently hovering character like BlackAdam in that image. Also please make that pose available (crossed arms, when flying the legs will unify), I often used it for superheroes but villains would benefit for that even more.

Thanks.
Thunder.

Lin Chiao Feng
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Man, back before ED I'd slot

Man, back before ED I'd slot six flight speeds into Hover. All the speed of single-slotted fly, plus free up a power slot, and no inertia or to-hit debuff or suppression silliness to worry about.

CoH had plenty of things that just floated there. The Arachnos Mu soldiers were one of them, and someone in another thread asked if they could make a PC like that (I don't know). There were also some of the Carnies and some of the Council/Fifth Column mecha.

It didn't have enough defense bonus or endurance cost to make slotting anything else worthwhile.

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I had a couple of characters

I had a couple of characters which basically operated in "perma-Hover" mode both before and after ED. I think I only ever bothered to toss in a speed enhancement or two in either case. These characters were ranged offense types and/or controllers so that relatively slow but defensive mode of movement suited their general builds.

I'm hoping that CoT will allow for a Hover option like this and not make it too prohibitive in terms of power cost/usage.

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Lots of my characters were in

Lots of my characters were in perma-hover, at least when in missions. I even had some scrappers who worked that way. I know I had several toons who used both Hover and Combat Jumping, partly for the defense bonuses. It made a huge difference for characters near the def cap. For other characters, I just loved the mobility, and the improved visibility.

I'd certainly hope we can do something like that in CoT. I'd be very surprised if we couldn't.

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I had a couple perma-hoverers

I had a couple perma-hoverers. The only ones I can recall off the top of my head were my namesake (ff/psi defender) and an inv/em tanker who was a tiny (as tiny as CoH allowed anyway) little pixie. If she'd been standing on the ground I'd have been staring at NPC groins all day long.

She much preferred punching them in the face.

Whatever option CoT provides, I'm sure I'll end up using it, even if it does come with restrictions. (Ideally it'd be nice to simply have an Aesthetic option for whatever generic "sprint" type power where your character floats a foot or two off the ground. Not true flight or hovering [no vertical movement] so no need for any sort of penalty.)

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I imagine that it could be an

I imagine that it could be an aesthetic option to replace the normal run or walk (like having a "beast" run), so that you needn't use up a power slot for it unless you want or need the benefits the power provides.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I imagine that it could be an aesthetic option to replace the normal run or walk (like having a "beast" run), so that you needn't use up a power slot for it unless you want or need the benefits the power provides.

That's a great idea. Would give people lots of options for exactly how to pull off their concept.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I imagine that it could be an aesthetic option to replace the normal run or walk (like having a "beast" run), so that you needn't use up a power slot for it unless you want or need the benefits the power provides.

That's a great idea. Would give people lots of options for exactly how to pull off their concept.

I agree. Even a seated lotus pose would be a nice perma-hover alternative to walking.


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Yeah agree we don't need

Yeah agree we don't need flight-type hover here, repulsor lift-type is more than enough. Having it as an aesthetic choice for normal run/walk, or if they have it sprint, would be the best option.

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One thing that I always

One thing that I always wondered is why was there a hover power AND fly power. I always wished that it was a toggle. Wouldn't it be nice to be in a mission toggled to Hover and then go in the overworld and toggle over to fly? I hated having to choose over the option of flight speed and then being negatively impacted by having to lose out on another(power) option if I chose hover and fly.

Once you toggle over to hover you get the defense boost, but lose the speed. Once you have it toggled to fly you have less defense but gain speed. It could still have separate enhancement slots but it would slim down the power tray as well as free up options for power choices.

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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

One thing that I always wondered is why was there a hover power AND fly power. I always wished that it was a toggle. Wouldn't it be nice to be in a mission toggled to Hover and then go in the overworld and toggle over to fly? I hated having to choose over the option of flight speed and then being negatively impacted by having to lose out on another(power) option if I chose hover and fly.
Once you toggle over to hover you get the defense boost, but lose the speed. Once you have it toggled to fly you have less defense but gain speed. It could still have separate enhancement slots but it would slim down the power tray as well as free up options for power choices.

Hover was unique in CoH in that it was a DEFENSIVE power that had a "side effect" which allowed you to move around in the air. While it's true there were times where you could get it to move you almost as fast as an actual travel power (i.e. pre-ED Fly) it was never technically meant to be a "travel power". I realize what I just said might be a bit hair-splity but that does essentially explain why Hover and Fly were treated as two distinct powers. One was a travel power and the other wasn't (more or less).

Not sure exactly how CoT is going to handle it but I'm sure it'll be workable regardless.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I also had a perma-hover

I also had a perma-hover character. It was a Plant/Thorn Dom named XxDark ThornxX. I always had him hovering above everyone else in PVP, I would usually take down the fliers with the -fly of impale which was nice. Once they dropped, I could finish them off. If they were smart enough and switched to hover, I could still fly down and hold them and finish them off. It was really fun and I think the defense boost it gave was worth it with some enhancements. I really hope COT has something similar.

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I understand they are

I understand they are supposed to have different benefits, I just didn't care for how it was implemented(i.e. being two completely different powers). I would rather it a type of upgrade perhaps. Say if CoT was similar to CoX where you were offered Hover before Fly. You could get hover and then at a certain level you could choose an upgrade for Hover, such as a toggle which would allow you to fly faster. I just feel like there were so many cool powers to choose from and it sucked that you had to use 2 powers on Hover and Fly. That's mainly my complaint. I just see them more as a combined power with perhaps options to expand or enhance, rather than being two totally different powers

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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

I understand they are supposed to have different benefits, I just didn't care for how it was implemented(i.e. being two completely different powers). I would rather it a type of upgrade perhaps. Say if CoT was similar to CoX where you were offered Hover before Fly. You could get hover and then at a certain level you could choose an upgrade for Hover, such as a toggle which would allow you to fly faster. I just feel like there were so many cool powers to choose from and it sucked that you had to use 2 powers on Hover and Fly. That's mainly my complaint. I just see them more as a combined power with perhaps options to expand or enhance, rather than being two totally different powers

I totally understand (at least from a conceptual point of view) that "Hover" and "Fly" seemed like they did the same basic things and how a person could make the argument that they should be combined somehow into a single basic power. For all I know CoT might do something like that.

I'm just saying I can also understand why CoH handled them as two completely standalone powers. As far as CoH was concerned one was a travel power and the other wasn't, regardless of any other consideration. Remember that in CoH Hover completely lacked inertial side-effects - as soon as you took your finger off a movement key you would stop instantly. On the other hand Fly had a bit of inertia related to its movement - even after you took your finger off a movement key you would "slide" to a stop. That was a critical difference between the two powers that many people forget about.

Frankly I never minded that Fly and Hover were two distinct powers in CoH because despite all the similarities there were actual fundamental differences between them.

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I saw it as a sort of

I saw it as a sort of - you have to learn to walk before you can run. You had to learn to hover (to lift your body slowly) before you could learn how to fly. The added bonus was how differently you could use both powers once you learned them. The defense on hover, the speed on fly. One is good to use in battle, lower end drainage and more defense, the other for travelling great distances or getting away from battle quickly. I would prefer for COT to have both, and I would want it to be a requirement to learn hover before fly.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I saw it as a sort of - you have to learn to walk before you can run. You had to learn to hover (to lift your body slowly) before you could learn how to fly. The added bonus was how differently you could use both powers once you learned them. The defense on hover, the speed on fly. One is good to use in battle, lower end drainage and more defense, the other for travelling great distances or getting away from battle quickly. I would prefer for COT to have both, and I would want it to be a requirement to learn hover before fly.

I'd only be willing to accept Hover being a "required prerequisite" for Fly as long as Fly was like super-stupid-wonderful in CoT. Like maybe allow you to fly like twice as fast in CoT as you could in CoH. The point is if Fly (as a basic travel power) requires another power in order to use it the Devs of CoT better make Fly practically overpowered to compensate for needing "two powers" to make that work.

No, I don't believe ANY power should require another prerequisite power in order to get it. That opens up far too many problems. Sure I'd agree with you that Hover and Fly tend to "go together" but there should be no direct requirement to have one to get the other.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Like maybe allow you to fly like twice as fast in CoT as you could in CoH.

The faster you can move, the smaller the (game) world becomes., simply because you reduce the time spent in moving between locations. That impacts how "large" the world feels to people moving through it.


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Misty Spirit my ghost girl

Misty Spirit my ghost girl character was perma hover and I had on powers so she would be see through.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Like maybe allow you to fly like twice as fast in CoT as you could in CoH.
The faster you can move, the smaller the (game) world becomes., simply because you reduce the time spent in moving between locations. That impacts how "large" the world feels to people moving through it.

Add in that all other travel powers would have to reasonably match it in speed (according to some formula that accounts for their different "flexibility") as well otherwise it would become a clear "winner" in what to pick.

Lothic
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Like maybe allow you to fly like twice as fast in CoT as you could in CoH.

The faster you can move, the smaller the (game) world becomes., simply because you reduce the time spent in moving between locations. That impacts how "large" the world feels to people moving through it.

I'm sorry my point here wasn't more obvious. I was trying to stress the idea that if Fly was going to require TWO POWERS (both Hover and Fly) to achieve then it better be incredibly super wonderful. Now obviously my specific example of that (2x speed over what CoH allowed) is certainly debatable but it's also not really the point here. I'm sorry I confused you with that - if you can come up with a version of Fly that would be worthy of needing TWO POWERS to justify feel free to suggest that here.

Basically I was playing Devil's Advocate for why this whole thing was a BAD IDEA. Clearly you latched onto the "bad idea" part without realizing why I brought it up in the first place.

blacke4dawn wrote:

Add in that all other travel powers would have to reasonably match it in speed (according to some formula that accounts for their different "flexibility") as well otherwise it would become a clear "winner" in what to pick.

If Fly was the only travel power that required TWO POWERS to get (both Hover and Fly) it would clearly need to be the BEST TRAVEL POWER in the game to justify the need for the Hover prerequiste. That's EXACTLY why requiring Fly to need Hover is a BAD IDEA.

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I suspect that the Devs will

I suspect that the Devs will take a page from the final design of CoT, where Travel powers had no prerequisites. That design also included the availability of defensive utility powers, like Hover and Combat Jumping, which could be purchased separately. I tended to get Combat Jumping on all of my characters, for the stability and short-distance mobility it offered, and it could, coincidentally take Defense enhancements.

In fact, if I recall correctly, this has already been established in the design, that Travel Powers are separate from the other power-choice trees and freely available.

I would, however, encourage the stability and economy of Hover in any future Fly power, perhaps with a toggle or extra key-press to activate the long-distance aspects. I also had a few characters that would have been in permanent Hover, if it had been less inconvenient.

One of my problems with the Hover power, itself, was that it was too slow. It seemed even slower than regular Sprint, in terms of reacting to combat maneuvers and getting around in bases and instances. It often seemed like my hovering character didn't actually know it's Location in the game, constantly getting hung up on stuff that my ground-bound characters negotiated with ease.

A solution, though probably not a popular one, would be to have a 'hovering' animation that could be assigned to a walking/standing 'power'. At least, then, the character would appear to be off the ground. I'd consider multiple versions of that walking/standing power, so a character had the option of changing mode.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Like maybe allow you to fly like twice as fast in CoT as you could in CoH.
The faster you can move, the smaller the (game) world becomes., simply because you reduce the time spent in moving between locations. That impacts how "large" the world feels to people moving through it.

COH was not that huge, and even with the TP to Mish and other ways of travel, i still had no problem with the world being small. I hate games that make it difficult to travel through just to buy them more time in a sense. I ran into this with Elder Scrolls Online. I would get to a point where the mountain was too high, or the terrain too rough for me to be able to cut through to the quest so I would spend a huge amount of time trekking around a mountain and I would end up not doing much in the actual game. I cant stand that sort of trickery.

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Damned invisible walls! They

Damned invisible walls! They're a dirty trick.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:
Add in that all other travel powers would have to reasonably match it in speed (according to some formula that accounts for their different "flexibility") as well otherwise it would become a clear "winner" in what to pick.
If Fly was the only travel power that required TWO POWERS to get (both Hover and Fly) it would clearly need to be the BEST TRAVEL POWER in the game to justify the need for the Hover prerequiste. That's EXACTLY why requiring Fly to need Hover is a BAD IDEA.

Depends on how you define "best" here.

Looking at the power alone then I would have to agree with you.
Looking at the power and the cost of it then I would have to say it would need to be on par with the others in a price-performance comparison. However I'm sure it's not so simplistic to just double the performance of a power if it "costs" two power slots to get, especially considering that we do get something for that first power slot.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Add in that all other travel powers would have to reasonably match it in speed (according to some formula that accounts for their different "flexibility") as well otherwise it would become a clear "winner" in what to pick.
If Fly was the only travel power that required TWO POWERS to get (both Hover and Fly) it would clearly need to be the BEST TRAVEL POWER in the game to justify the need for the Hover prerequiste. That's EXACTLY why requiring Fly to need Hover is a BAD IDEA.
Depends on how you define "best" here.
Looking at the power alone then I would have to agree with you.
Looking at the power and the cost of it then I would have to say it would need to be on par with the others in a price-performance comparison. However I'm sure it's not so simplistic to just double the performance of a power if it "costs" two power slots to get, especially considering that we do get something for that first power slot.

Let's be clear here - I do not think ANY travel power should require a SECOND power as a prerequisite. So I'm trying to illustrate the DUMB things the Devs might have to do to try to justify the extreme cost of requiring that.

I consider making CoT's Fly allow you to travel 2x the speed of CoH's Fly a very DUMB thing to do. I'm sorry that was not clear and that everyone got sidetracked talking about the details of the "2x example". I assumed everyone would have realized that was a "generic hyperbolic example" but apparently everyone was thinking I was being serious with that. That was not the important part of what I was talking about here.

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Right, and I believe Fly, or

Right, and I believe Fly, or whatever Travel Power we choose, will go into it's own, custom 'Travel Power Slot' and not cost anything from leveling.

So, let's return to the OP and consider ways and means of achieving a 'permanent hover'?

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Damned invisible walls! They're a dirty trick.
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I was referring to the trickery of making the game difficult to navigate to add more play time.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Right, and I believe Fly, or whatever Travel Power we choose, will go into it's own, custom 'Travel Power Slot' and not cost anything from leveling.
So, let's return to the OP and consider ways and means of achieving a 'permanent hover'?
Be Well!
Fireheart

Didn't know you were a mod. You must be fun at parties.

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@Lothic, Yea, I guess if

@Lothic, Yea, I guess if there was no prerequisite that you had to get to get a travel power, that would solve all of the problems I had with the original setup. I don't particularly remember not needing a prerequisite ever being the case in CoH. But then again, I was pretty much sticking to one character for quite awhile around the time CoX shut down.

I'm a bit confused by the OP anyway. I'm assuming the point of the OP was requesting that instead of running or walking you are hovering even during fights? If that's the case then I would agree with others to just make it an aesthetic option of the normal walk/sprint. This would be perfect for a ghost character, or possibly a character who floats on items, like either one of the characters in the picture below:

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Didn't know you were a mod. You must be fun at parties.

Bah! I'm no mod, I just don't like an environment full of strife. I'm very popular at parties - I bring the homemade double-chocolate macadamia cookies.

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Fireheart

Lin Chiao Feng
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Didn't know you were a mod. You must be fun at parties.
Bah! I'm no mod, I just don't like an environment full of strife. I'm very popular at parties - I bring the homemade double-chocolate macadamia cookies.

Yeah, now if we could just get you to bring enough...

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Honestly is there such a

Honestly is there such a thing as enough double chocolate macadamia cookies, or cookies in general?

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Apparently not, since I once

Apparently not, since I once had to break up a drunken fistfight over who got the last one.

From an alt-medical point of view, it's understandable, since real Vanilla is a narcotic euphoric and Chocolate stimulates endorphins, so the cookies might be a little bit addictive. The butter, brown sugar, and of course the Macadamias all contribute to making your fat and happy. However, if you're drunk and really Need to feel better, then a delicious cookie might help. Or, frankly, you might need more help than a cookie can provide.

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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

I'm a bit confused by the OP anyway. I'm assuming the point of the OP was requesting that instead of running or walking you are hovering even during fights? If that's the case then I would agree with others to just make it an aesthetic option of the normal walk/sprint. This would be perfect for a ghost character, or possibly a character who floats on items

I just wanted to know if we will be able to replicate something that was already available/feasible in City of Heroes, even if many apparently ignored that possibility, it was still there, very funny, very roleplay centered.

By the way, the idea of an aesthetic option for the normal walk/sprint is not bad, it would be good enough for the role-play side if hovering during fights was an issue for the combat balance.
It wasn't an issue in City of Heroes but we're talking about a game that was born for PvE only, while City of Titans will be balanced also around pvp possibilities, therefore I rest open-minded for new possible solutions as well as new possible problems.

We must add that all superhero MMORPGs out there permit permanent hover in some way, but that won't mean a thing, since we would also play there and not be here writing in this forum if we were happy enough with those.

Anyway Lin Chiao Feng said he used permanent hovering in City of Heroes, so I hope he is our mole from within to achieve that. Go! We're with you! Make that possible in a way or another! :D

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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:

By the way, the idea of an aesthetic option for the normal walk/sprint is not bad, it would be good enough for the role-play side if hovering during fights was an issue for the combat balance.

I'm not against the idea of having an aesthetic alternative for the normal Walk/Sprint be some kind of "hover" but the only way to keep that from having any combat effect at all would be to have it restricted to what I guess you could call a "two dimensional hover". Such an aesthetic-oriented hover could not be used to maneuver in the "z-axis" at all.

Imagine how your character would move around using the normal Walk but then imagine that character with invisible legs. The legs still allow the character to "walk" around but since they're invisible it would look like your torso was "hovering" around. That's what I mean by "two dimensional hovering" that would tie you to the ground just like normal legs and gravity do.

If you wanted anything more than aesthetic hovering then you should have to take a Hover power that actually provides for full 3-D movement.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Fireheart
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Many 'flying' or 'hovering'

Many 'flying' or 'hovering' objects in CoH did have those 'invisible legs'. Or, at least, they produced a 'splashing' trail in shallow water.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Foradain
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No more vertical movement

No more vertical movement than their purchased movement power provides, or that any character has for jumping or falling.

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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Beamrider
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Many 'flying' or 'hovering' objects in CoH did have those 'invisible legs'. Or, at least, they produced a 'splashing' trail in shallow water.
Be Well!
Fireheart

And the 'four legged' Nemesis Jaegers really had two legs, with the animation of four.

Composition Team